These forums

[Ackter]

Paid-for email may as well be a paid-for forum.

[gavnoble]

Originally posted by Ackter:

Paid-for email may as well be a paid-for forum.

Why?

[Ackter]

Same reasons.

Paid-email doesn't make you a better user.

Paid-email limits the people that can join up.

[dannyboy24]

I'd have to agree with Ackter on the paid for email.

Fact is a large chunk of the online population uses these services, for various reasons, it just creates an inconvenience for some users, nothing more. Makes as much sense as telling football fans that came by bus that they won't be let into the ground.

[tingting]

I dont know whether anyone has suggested this (have not read the entire posts), but there should be some control over forum policing done by posters who are quite regular here (with higher karma thing) and they think they can shape this in their own way.

One of the first few posts by a newcomer will regarding some stupid questions and instead of politely answering their question and then pointing out their mistakes, some of the older posters blast them out (forgetting that they might have made/are making same mistakes when they were new to this forum

[Sean Paul]

Is the OTF now doomed? If i'm being honest it could use a kick up the backside, it's getting stale.

[Ackter]

Doubt this would be applied to OTF, cause I doubt SI care that much.

Would be easier to delete it.

[Kris]

Originally posted by Ackter:

Paid-for email may as well be a paid-for forum.

We didnt restrict it to paid for emails, we just restricted the normal conduit of alias/troublemakers.

[Ackter]

And I was lucky that I was able to sign up using my dad's email at the time.

I'd have been gone otherwise.

I'm sure that would be a cause for support from some users though.

[Michael F]

Anyone think theres too many sticky threads now?

You not think it would be easier to have the old blogs in one thread, with links to each blog but keep he newest blog in its own thread?

So have

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Different demo's that will be available

<LI>2008 Official demo first impressions thread

<LI>FM 2008 Feature Blog: Usability Part 2

<LI>FM 2008: Links to Feature Blogs

<LI>These Forums

<LI>Golden Joystick Awards

It just seems like most of page 1 is sticky threads, as there's 10 atm

[buzzing_hornet]

I'd rather have all those stickies than what we've usually been getting on the front page.

[dafuge]

At a time like this with the demo just round the corner there's always going to be a lot of sticky threads.

[Rashidi]

Most of the stickies will drop off in time.

[Alurny]

Reasonable discussion which is condemned to drop off under a bunch of 3 word reply threads. It annoys me the way such discussions barely get going anymore Its bound to disappear any time soon as well.

[Alurny]

Oh any may I add, this is exactly how I think the sticky threads should be used.

No replies are a great idea for informative threads like these. I also fell a sticky FAQ would help newer users which answers the most frequent questions.

[dafuge]

Is Ackter a mod?

He seems to have closed this thread.

[dafuge]

Why does the OTF have a Football Manager thread?

Surely this is just helping to keep more people away from the general discussion forum?

[Guest weekender]

Why are you all being so liberal to newcomers? Whenever I join a forum I spend a few minutes reading the Rules/reading sticky threads etc. This is just common-sense, if I have any questions they've probably been asked already.

The problem with this forum in particular is that there's not enough Nazi officiating. Quite frankly, if someone can't read the Rules/sticky threads then the chances of them contributing anything worthwhile are slim anyway, so you should ban them. No yellow cards, no second chances, BAN THEM.

You could at least put a modification in each forum so that before you make a post, a warning comes up which says:

"STOP. IS YOUR POST ABOUT ANY OF THE FOLLOWING TOPICS?

-The FM08 demo

-What you are having for your tea

-Etc

THEN DO NOT POST, THERE ARE THREADS ALREADY, HERE THEY ARE:

-Link to FM08 demo thread

-Link to the "What are you having for tea?" thread

-Etc

IF YOU ARE SURE THAT YOUR POST IS NOT IN CONNECTION WITH ANY OF THESE TOPICS, PLEASE PRESS THE NEXT BUTTON"

Personally, I'd then have *another* modification when you click 'next', which says:

"THINK AGAIN. HAVE YOU USED THE SEARCH FUNCTION? THIS IS A BUSY FORUM AND WHATEVER QUESTION YOU HAVE MAY HAVE BEEN ASKED BEFORE. PLEASE USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION BEFORE CONTINUING, IDIOTS"

[buzzing_hornet]

Hmmm i suppose a few Hitler techniques wouldn't go a miss

[Ackter]

Originally posted by dafuge:

Is Ackter a mod?

He seems to have closed this thread.

Nah I'm not, that was Ter I think.

[Guest weekender]

Originally posted by buzzing_hornet:

Hmmm i suppose a few Hitler techniques wouldn't go a miss

Just to clarify, I meant Nazi as in strict, not that the moderators should ban all the Jews.

[Rashidi]

Speaking as a mod who now has to go prep for 2008, my recommendation is to focus the way stickies are done. General stickies regarding news on the game should stay in GQ, subforums should not have them or they just take up a chunk of real-estate.

[cliff7197]

Just joining in on page 11. Mainly because for the very reasons Miles mentions on Page 1 I barely spend any time in this section of the forum anymore.

When I consider that this forum is the very reason I signed up in the first place, that's a sad state of affairs.

I fully admit I haven't read much of the previous 11 pages (I'm at work at the moment for starters!) so if I'm repeating things that have already been done to death then I apologise in advance.

Firstly, currently there's far too many people who seem to be acting as if they're already some kind of unofficial forum police and that needs to stop. The only way I can think of this stopping is if the moderator presence was increased on the forums either via more mods or more time online by existing mods (May not be possible, quite understandably, due to their real-world commitments though).

This unofficial forum police is offputting to new posters and creates a hostile environment, which is not what any of us want. The mods need to not only crack down on the users starting spurious threads about release dates, no CD patches and typing in text speak, but they need to be equally as strict on the forum police. Anyone acting in an over-aggressive way should be warned or carded straight away as it's not condusive to a nice environment for any of us.

However it's also fair to say that some people really don't help themselves. There's repetitive threads about the same topic day in, day out. A quick scan of page 1 of this forum reveals several "release date" threads, despite the glaringly obvious sticky at the top and despite the fact that it's widely known to anyone who's been here for more than 5 minutes that as soon as there's a release date to be had, we'll be told about it. And not before.

So how to combat this? It's sad that I'm even suggesting this as it goes against a lot of what I think this forum should be about but perhaps we need to impose some rules on how long a person has to be a member of the forum or how many posts they need to make before they can start a new thread of their own.

Perhaps limiting people in this way, ie by saying you must have made 20 posts and been registered for over a week before you can start a thread might force people to acquaint themselves with the rules that govern the usage of this forum (Including the unwritten rules, ie no release date threads for games or patches) without them even realising they're doing it. I'm not suggesting a massive timescale or number of posts as that would be counter productive to getting new members aboard, which is always something we should hope to see, but just enough time to make people see how others behave and to give them a chance to familiarise themselves with the forum rules (Either by taking the time to read them or by just becoming familiar with how things run here) before ploughing in blindly with all guns blazing.

As I say it's sad that I'm even suggesting this, as I myself only came to this forum 4 years ago to report a bug on a version of CM (as it was then). I'd never used an internet forum in my life before this and was only directed here from an email from Eidos, the publishers of CM, after emailing my bug to them. I had no intention of joining a forum and only did it as a means to an end to improve the game I love. My intention was to post one bug report, then leave. Hence why I chose a random username that I'd much rather have a chance to change now!

If, as someone quite green to the whole forum system, I was told to wait a week and / or make 20 posts then I might have just left never to return and indeed it was the openness ease of which I was able to come in and report the bug that led to me staying. 4 years and nearly 7000 posts later and I'm still here. But unfortunately, most of those posts are now in other sections of the forums as I find GQ to be quite a frustrating place to spend my time. Which is sad.

Maybe there's some middle ground to be had? Maybe everyone should be allowed to start threads initially, but if you clown about then it could be that you're banned from starting threads for a week and 20 posts, to give you time to reflect on what goes on here. Some people, of course, are beyond help but I feel we should give new posters every opportunity to develop into helpful members of the community. I'm sure plenty of the better posters started off badly and are now making a very worthwhile contribution to these forums.

Well that's me done. Sorry for the essay but it's something I do feel quite strongly about as like I say the current climate has kept me away from here for some time now and I'm genuinely disappointed by that. And sorry if I'm just rehashing things already discussed. None of my ideas are especially groundbreaking so it's quite possible they've already been discussed, but if nothing else then consider this post to be adding my opinion to that of those already voiced.

[cliff7197]

Originally posted by dafuge:

Why does the OTF have a Football Manager thread?

Surely this is just helping to keep more people away from the general discussion forum?

Very, very good point.

I love OTF, I really do, but the FM thread in there has hundreds of pages of posts in it. Most of the users on OTF are fairly sensible and constructive (I said MOST) as it self-moderates to an extent - The less constructive users don't survive long in there as (rightly or wrongly) they are swiftly run out of town.

So if you've got 3-400 pages of comments about FM from mainly sensible, intelligent people that should be in here, then it's easy to see why this place is so deserted and bereft of ideas and discussion.

[Kris]

We wont be implementing a "waiting" period before being able to post. (mostly because the forum software doesn't allow this).

[NeilUK]

I have to agree with Miles, I can certainly understand why the SI staff no longer wish to come here. I myself don't use the Forum now much at all. I used to get loads of help on here whether I had directly asked a question now myself , or just reading answers from others who had already experienced the problem. Up to about 2 years ago this was the friendliest, most helpful Forum of its type. However bug reports and requests for help are now met with, the majority of time, with sarcastic responses from members here. I have to say that the main culprits seem to be the most experienced users on the Forum. The very fact that the SI staff aren't on much now means that help is much limited and the experienced members of this forum become more important than ever. Yet all we get are sarcastic replies to people. Quite common is mickey taking of people from outside the UK as they try and type in English.

As a result over the last 2 years I have limited my time on the Forum and I hope Miles and his team can help get the Forum back to what it was. But they can't do it alone , the experienced members here need to do most of the work in changing their attitude to less experienced players

[Kris]

OTf, Sensible and intelligent?

[cliff7197]

Originally posted by Kris:

We wont be implementing a "waiting" period before being able to post. (mostly because the forum software doesn't allow this).

I wasn't suggesting a waiting period to post, just a waiting period to start new threads.

But I guess the same software limitations might still apply.

[cliff7197]

Originally posted by Kris:

OTf, Sensible and intelligent?

It's all relative. I'm comparing them to what's available, not to Mensa.

[dafuge]

Originally posted by cliff7197:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

Why does the OTF have a Football Manager thread?

Surely this is just helping to keep more people away from the general discussion forum?

Very, very good point.

I love OTF, I really do, but the FM thread in there has hundreds of pages of posts in it. Most of the users on OTF are fairly sensible and constructive (I said MOST) as it self-moderates to an extent - The less constructive users don't survive long in there as (rightly or wrongly) they are swiftly run out of town.

So if you've got 3-400 pages of comments about FM from mainly sensible, intelligent people that should be in here, then it's easy to see why this place is so deserted and bereft of ideas and discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never been a big fan of the OTF FM thread, it just seems to be a mixture of important observations that should really be in this forum and people giving updates about their games that no one really cares about.

[its called football]

Is there anyway to privately contact mods through PMs or another similar system? i just want to know why I got yellow-carded, I looked through my posts and didnt see anything really warranting a Yellow, IMO.

[Ackter]

Originally posted by its called football:

Is there anyway to privately contact mods through PMs or another similar system? i just want to know why I got yellow-carded, I looked through my posts and didnt see anything really warranting a Yellow, IMO.

mods [at] sigames [dot] com

[its called football]

Originally posted by Ackter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by its called football:

Is there anyway to privately contact mods through PMs or another similar system? i just want to know why I got yellow-carded, I looked through my posts and didnt see anything really warranting a Yellow, IMO.

mods [at] sigames [dot] com </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I sent a message along

[schuey100]

This is just a personal opinion and some might disagree but.. I feel that the mods are partly to blame. It's an attitude issue. Furthermore we have a number of members affiliated to SI in some way who really do seem to cause a lot of trouble and tend to be immune to any kind of action from mods or staff.

There's simply a bad atmosphere on these forums. It's not friendly. To some extent it's expected because people are very passionate about both football and the game but some of the bad behavior could be toned down. Personally I'd get rid of the majority of the mods. Some do do a good job but in general terms the forums have gone downhill and the mods need to take some responsibility. It's also very cliquey here. It seems as if a lot of bad behavior os overlooked because of the prominence of the poster or the fact that they, for some reason, have 'cred'.

Again, a personal opinion but if one were to ban about 10 members I bet the forums would become a drastically better place.

[its called football]

Originally posted by Ackter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by its called football:

Is there anyway to privately contact mods through PMs or another similar system? i just want to know why I got yellow-carded, I looked through my posts and didnt see anything really warranting a Yellow, IMO.

mods [at] sigames [dot] com </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seem to be getting some sort of error at that email address.

[Ackter]

Originally posted by its called football:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by its called football:

Is there anyway to privately contact mods through PMs or another similar system? i just want to know why I got yellow-carded, I looked through my posts and didnt see anything really warranting a Yellow, IMO.

mods [at] sigames [dot] com </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seem to be getting some sort of error at that email address. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That error means that one of the mods didn't get their email. The rest of them did.

[Jimbokav1971]

its called football. You quoted a biggot comment from Pina and highlighted it.

I'm guessing he got mixed up and warned you instead of Pina...... but that's just my guess.

In his defence it has been a tad busy in here today.

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by its called football:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by its called football:

Is there anyway to privately contact mods through PMs or another similar system? i just want to know why I got yellow-carded, I looked through my posts and didnt see anything really warranting a Yellow, IMO.

mods [at] sigames [dot] com </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I sent a message along </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I yellow carded you. And you were told why in the thread and you have now received an email from me.

[panomaniac]

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

As some of you have noticed, the majority of normal posters from SI haven't been on the forums much recently.

I can't talk for anyone else at SI (unless I'm doing PR ), and whilst it's true that we've all been really busy with FM08, FMH08 and FML and that is part of the reason, from my own point of view, it's because the forums seem to have been changing a lot over the last 18 months, and it's got to the point where I don't think they're very nice anymore.

The purpose of these forums is for people to be able to talk about the game, a bit of speculation about what the future holds, coming up with ideas, and discussing them with likeminded people - people who play Football Manager.

What they aren't a place for is to sling around personal insults, not listening to other people or destructive criticism. Constructive criticism is fine, and always welcome, whether it be directly about the game and aimed at us, or whether it's debating someone elses idea.

We're currently thinking about changing the rules and terms and conditions of the forums so that this bullying behaviour is stopped, and the forums become a vibrant place again. So this thread is for suggestions of how to do that - I'm not planning on revealing what I'm thinking of at the moment, just want to get ideas from the regular users of the forums.

Stupid comments and insults (which I've seen on a lot of threads today whilst looking at a few things) will be dealt with accordingly in anyway I see fit. So please behave, and type nicely.

I agree Miles, too many people moaning these days about the game not being up to their standards. Its like this place is full of drama queens sometimes with various people announcing how they're gonna quit FM because of various reasons.

As for how to fix it then perhaps there can be a rule that a) the only criticism welcome must be constructive and b) zero tolerance on personal insults.

As far as I can see the only way to police this would be through the moderators locking inappropriate threads/deleting insulting posts which can be tough as times considering the number of 'moaning' threads we see here at various times.

Perhaps a separate 'help forum' (not technical help but actual game help) might be an idea - however, I'm not sure I'd be keen on that as it could turn into a massive moanfest in there, however, it could help to get rid of the moaning in the other sections.....it's a difficult one to weigh up whether it would be a benefit or not.

The only other thing that I can think of is instant 1 month bans for bullying behaviour. 1 day bans or 1 week bans are too short and don't do enough to discourage it whereas I feel a whole month is more fair. I do believe that banned members should have a 2nd chance so I wouldn't want indefinate bans so I think 1 month would be long enough.

Also Miles, cheers for all the work you and the lads at SI do, I know you get a lot of undeserved stick and don't hear enough praise so I think you guys at SI deserve a big thankyou because I don't think people here say that enough in between all the moaning and abuse.

[chopper99]

Originally posted by cliff7197:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

Why does the OTF have a Football Manager thread?

Surely this is just helping to keep more people away from the general discussion forum?

Very, very good point.

I love OTF, I really do, but the FM thread in there has hundreds of pages of posts in it. Most of the users on OTF are fairly sensible and constructive (I said MOST) as it self-moderates to an extent - The less constructive users don't survive long in there as (rightly or wrongly) they are swiftly run out of town.

So if you've got 3-400 pages of comments about FM from mainly sensible, intelligent people that should be in here, then it's easy to see why this place is so deserted and bereft of ideas and discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a very important point. To increase the quality of GQ we need to do a few things, and one of the main ones is to get some of the 'old boys' back into this forum. There are now very few experienced posters spending their time in GQ and I think (and this is nothing against newer members) that the quality of the posts in the forum have decreased because of this.

We need to get back to having good discussions, and not having the good discussions swamped by hundreds of pointless threads. Another way to help achieve this imo would be to get defuge's challenge and kipfizh's AI experiment back into GQ. These type of excellent threads are what we want to see in here.

And finally for me the other things that need to be done (I know they've already been mentioned but I just want to re-iterate) are for the more experienced members to be more patient at times. I know it's hard, and some people who post are harder to keep your cool with than others, but I think the only way forward is to start by politely pointing out what the person's done wrong and if necessary guiding them to the relevant rule/forum/thread.

Only when someone continues to be in idiot should they be subjected to abuse

At the same time we need consistant and harsher discipline for rule breakers and abusers, and this may mean more mods are needed. I personally think Glyn does the best he can in GQ, but more is obviously needed.

Finally I think the FAQ (if there's going to be one in GQ) and the rules stickies need to be made much clearer and made to stand out from other thread titles a lot more.

[Ter]

Only when someone continues to be in idiot should they be subjected to abuse

Nobody should be subjected to abuse at any time. That's one of the major problems at the moment, although it hasn't been as bad since this topic has been created.

[chopper99]

Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Only when someone continues to be in idiot should they be subjected to abuse

Nobody should be subjected to abuse at any time. That's one of the major problems at the moment, although it hasn't been as bad since this topic has been created. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, that was only meant to be light hearted.

Although I must admit I've encountered some people on the boards lately who really do bring it on themselves, mainly by abusing others. And it is hard sometimes to keep yourself in check when replying to these people.

And I'm generally nice to everyone. But I will be trying harder to keep my cool even with the most horrible of posters, in th hope that if and when they deserve it they'll be punished by the moderators.

[FrazT]

With the continual suggestion from this thread for a FAQ to be stickied at the top of the GQ forum, perhaps the Mods/SI could have a look at rashidi1's excellent FM 2008 FAQ thread at the top of the Tactics Forum and use this as a guide.

[cudman]

in th epast i have made a couple of references to "little hitlers" patrolling the forums (not mods). ready to jump down someones throat for asking the wrong question.

granted some new users can be quite rude but i find that it is mostly the more experinced members that are guilty of it.

maybe it makes them feel important, who knows...

somebody else mentioned it anyway, i think 1 day,2 day or 1 week bans would be a good way to decrease the abuse.

also i dont know if its possible but can e-mail addresses be policed? i ask because i have seen numerous aliases messing around in here using the same mail address as their other accounts

[smass]

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

What they aren't a place for is to sling around personal insults, not listening to other people or destructive criticism...We're currently thinking about changing the rules and terms and conditions of the forums so that this bullying behaviour is stopped, and the forums become a vibrant place again.

Presumably that means you'll be firing one or two of the moderators then. Probably best not to name names, but the conduct of some of them is as bad as any of the regular posters. I could easily give you examples of their personal insults, lack of respect for constructive criticism and dismissive attitude particularly in PC/M GD.

The know-alls need to be put in their place too. The "it's your tactics" brigade. Just because they spend every waking second on these forums doesn't mean everyone should be expected to have read every thread that's been posted. To add to that you use Eve forums which have an abysmal search facility, so all in all newcomers won't get much joy here.

[gavnoble]

Just wondering if there was anything SI wanted to say at this point as to me it seems as if everyone is now retreading old ground?

[pouncer]

I think that when topics are closed there should be more of an explanation why. This is just what I am talking about. A new user, which you can see from the register date, making a post which isn't really too irrelevant, and it gets closed straight away.

Maybe a reason to inform the new user and all others to why this was closed - rather than slamming it shut and driving this person away from the forums.

[Ter]

That user got a response in the other thread that he started telling him where to post stuff so it should be pretty clear why it was closed.

Especially at really busy times like this it's much quicker just to close stuff.

[Ter]

Just wondering if there was anything SI wanted to say at this point as to me it seems as if everyone is now retreading old ground?

Not really the best time at the moment what with the demo and other stuff going on.

[Ter]

also i dont know if its possible but can e-mail addresses be policed? i ask because i have seen numerous aliases messing around in here using the same mail address as their other accounts

Report them to mods@ and they will get looked into