Does the Al Cheat???

Recent disscustion i have had http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=47690

I was this morning reading some posts on another fm fan site with over 66 replys regaurding a debate regaurding does FM08 AI cheat??

some guy says he has tested with over 400 different tactics and the same result is apparent, he also said even great tactics made by wwfan was floored and that the AI used the suspect ways of scoring goals ect..

im open minded about it and sit on the fence so this is no cry from me..

other people who found the topic are some what dissgruntalled by it and feel there gaming experiance is not fun, they are of the beleive that the AI knows weather we are going to lose or win before a ball is kicked..

does any one have any reasurances that this isnt the case?

People always think if they use a tactics by myself, wwfan or Rashidi they would have the same success. However if you don't have the knowledge of how they where designed and what changes to make to adapt at the right times, then no matter what tactic you use will not achieve maximum results.

I agree to be fair, each game at any giveime has it's own merits so using another persons tactics at any random point doesnt always work as well as it doesn for the creator, i find players need to be trained to use a new tactic, or should i say a new formation with different instructions, ie-tactic

It's true that the AI adapt to your tactics though, isn't it?

I had a pretty decent tactic I made, was in the top 4 till about 30 games played and went on a losing streak, so I had to change.

possibly, i think it's because match odds change, teams line up differently gainst you, end of day if a team IRL played the same way week in week out, it would be easy to break that team down in the end. so changes need to be made to keep the game fun..

No, it doesn't cheat, because you need motivation to cheat and it has no motivation.

It doesn't cheat.

Some of the periods of success that users have achieved prove beyond doubt that it doesn't cheat. The real problem is people seeing something wrong and not being able to diagnose it, and therefore not know how to fix it, the classic case being the "superkeepers" where there is something blatanlt wrong, but rather than figure out how to fix it, some users would rather bleat that the game cheats.

I went on a 139 game unbeaten run (in all comps) using 3 or 4 different tactics depending on who and where i was playing. I didn't concede a league goal in 17 games. I don't think AI cheats. How does AI know what you are going to do during the game? It doesn't know if you are going to change your tactics to Ultra Defensive after only 5 mins when you started with All Out Attack. It does however punish you if you make a tactical mistake. I have noticed that. Get your tactics pretty much spot on, make subs at the right time, play the players in their best positions regularly and i think you could do very well. AI may try to stop you, but if your good, you'll come out on top 9 times out of 10.

It doesn't cheat.

Some of the periods of success that users have achieved prove beyond doubt that it doesn't cheat. The real problem is people seeing something wrong and not being able to diagnose it, and therefore not know how to fix it, the classic case being the "superkeepers" where there is something blatanlt wrong, but rather than figure out how to fix it, some users would rather bleat that the game cheats.

I have noticed AI keepers making SUPER saves during the game, despite what i just said above. But saying that, i have seen my keepers do the same at times. It's all swings and roundabouts.

People bleating on about not being able to win a set game regardless of tactics are overlooking the fact that tactics aren't the final word on success in FM.

If your tactics are bad you'll be spanked. But equally, if morale is bad you'll struggle. If your players are fatigued you'll struggle, if your players just don't suit each other, haven't gelled or have some other problem acting as a team you'll be in trouble.

All he proved by using such a multitude of tactics replaying that game is that it wasn't a tactical error he was losing because of. Maybe it was a motivational error, or a training / rotation error leading to fatigue?

People bleating on about not being able to win a set game regardless of tactics are overlooking the fact that tactics aren't the final word on success in FM.

If your tactics are bad you'll be spanked. But equally, if morale is bad you'll struggle. If your players are fatigued you'll struggle, if your players just don't suit each other, haven't gelled or have some other problem acting as a team you'll be in trouble.

All he proved by using such a multitude of tactics replaying that game is that it wasn't a tactical error he was losing because of. Maybe it was a motivational error, or a training / rotation error leading to fatigue?

Yeah good point, i've tried to explain it to people before but all they say is "i loaded the game up 30 times and only won twice!! omgzzz this game cheats!!!"

I'm sure some people just don't want to understand, as it means the fault is theirs and that they have to put more effort in to win.

The AI can't cheat, there is no reason for it to do so.

The ME sees both teams on a equal "playing field" and uses each teams ability/tactics/team talks (and a host of other variables) to determine the outcome of each match. This outcome can be changed in-game depending on each player's (You Vs AI) decision making.

The game doesn't "decide" before kick-off that you are going to either win, lose or draw, despite what many a doom-monger may say.

If you are losing a match 3-0 at half time, as unlikely as it is, you really can turn that match around and come back to win with a good team talk; a much-needed tactical change; and just some good decision making.

I don't see why SI would make their game cheat. Could you imagine for a second the damage that would do to their business, or credibility?

For God's sake not this aagin.

For God's sake not this aagin.

I'm assuming it's a subject that bores the tits off everyone?

The game doesn't "decide" before kick-off that you are going to either win, lose or draw, despite what many a doom-monger may say.

No, but it does decide what the score's going to be at half time the moment you confirm your team talk. That can change if either manager (AI or human) makes a change.

I'm assuming it's a subject that bores the tits off everyone?

Yes, it is.

For God's sake not this aagin.

It is a good debate and a question that needs to be cleared up. The match engine takes: tactics, form, players, morale, confidence and many other things into account; not whether the team is controlled by human or AI

The one thing i believe the AI does get an advantage with is transfers. Too many times do clubs show no interest in a player and even though you keep it private they leap into action and bid more than you; it is not just one club either, it is six or seven and that is really frustrating.

It is a good debate and a question that needs to be cleared up.

Maybe so, but it's a debate that's been had countless times. A simple search would bring up threads on this matter, and then said threads could simply be revived. That's if we really must have this debate yet again. The AI doesn't cheat, as you said, because it is incapable of cheating. It doesn't have the ability to distinguish between human- and AI-controlled teams.

Maybe so, but it's a debate that's been had countless times. A simple search would bring up threads on this matter, and then said threads could simply be revived. That's if we really must have this debate yet again. The AI doesn't cheat, as you said, because it is incapable of cheating. It doesn't have the ability to distinguish between human- and AI-controlled teams.

Yes I know, I just know that certain people don't have the ability to click search.

Yes I know, I just know that certain people don't have the ability to click search.

Touché.

well i dont know really, but i got another problem with the "Cheating" thing on FM08, like i used lately FMM (Just because FM09 comes out after 2 months) and like i gave Arsenal 100 Seats and the training ground to lvl 1, and i made them bankrupt and after 2 weeks they were like miljonair again..and i still don't understand how...And they were extending their stadium again

Something i have just thought of is if AI doesn't cheat...how does it know what the key moments are when you watch your match in key highlights only? Also, this works with extended highlights. Every key highlight is either a chance, goal, booking, sending off etc. AI must be able to predict the future if it doesn't cheat. I have never seen a key highlight that was a load of nonsense. I am contradicting what i have said earlier in this thread but i have been thinking about this a lot.

Something i have just thought of is if AI doesn't cheat...how does it know what the key moments are when you watch your match in key highlights only? Also, this works with extended highlights. Every key highlight is either a chance, goal, booking, sending off etc. AI must be able to predict the future if it doesn't cheat. I have never seen a key highlight that was a load of nonsense. I am contradicting what i have said earlier in this thread but i have been thinking about this a lot.

At the beginning of a game, the score is decided up until half time. Then at the beggining of the second half it is decided for the end of the game. Any changes you or the AI make results in the score being re calculated.

The AI always gives you a chance to beat it, it leaves clues and flaws in it's own tactics, just like a real game for you to exploit.

The clues are in the stats, the scout reports and the individual player stats amongst a few other things and if you don't take the time to look at these then you will never achieve the maximum success.

well i dont know really, but i got another problem with the "Cheating" thing on FM08, like i used lately FMM (Just because FM09 comes out after 2 months) and like i gave Arsenal 100 Seats and the training ground to lvl 1, and i made them bankrupt and after 2 weeks they were like miljonair again..and i still don't understand how...And they were extending their stadium again

Maybe you gave them so much debt that their finances turned positive (-2.15bn will do that IIRC).

Something i have just thought of is if AI doesn't cheat...how does it know what the key moments are when you watch your match in key highlights only? Also, this works with extended highlights. Every key highlight is either a chance, goal, booking, sending off etc. AI must be able to predict the future if it doesn't cheat. I have never seen a key highlight that was a load of nonsense. I am contradicting what i have said earlier in this thread but i have been thinking about this a lot.

Because the match engine simulates a match one half at a time. So when a half starts it knows how it's going to end if none of the teams change anything in their tactics or formation. Whenever one of the teams make a change, it re-simulates the rest of the half, taking the change(s) into account.

Think of the match engine as a calculator - whther the input is coming from a human or a computer, the calculator still gives the same results.

Regardless of where the input is coming from, the match engine treats it all in exactly the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shefki2008 View Post

Something i have just thought of is if AI doesn't cheat...how does it know what the key moments are when you watch your match in key highlights only? Also, this works with extended highlights. Every key highlight is either a chance, goal, booking, sending off etc. AI must be able to predict the future if it doesn't cheat. I have never seen a key highlight that was a load of nonsense. I am contradicting what i have said earlier in this thread but i have been thinking about this a lot.

At the beginning of a game, the score is decided up until half time. Then at the beggining of the second half it is decided for the end of the game. Any changes you or the AI make results in the score being re calculated.

So basically during the 1st half you can play your keeper up front and the score at half time will still be what AI decided it to be before the game starts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shefki2008 View Post

Something i have just thought of is if AI doesn't cheat...how does it know what the key moments are when you watch your match in key highlights only? Also, this works with extended highlights. Every key highlight is either a chance, goal, booking, sending off etc. AI must be able to predict the future if it doesn't cheat. I have never seen a key highlight that was a load of nonsense. I am contradicting what i have said earlier in this thread but i have been thinking about this a lot.

At the beginning of a game, the score is decided up until half time. Then at the beggining of the second half it is decided for the end of the game. Any changes you or the AI make results in the score being re calculated.

So basically during the 1st half you can play your keeper up front and the score at half time will still be what AI decided it to be before the game starts?

Whenever you make a change (after the match is started) the match engine recalculates the outcome of the game.

Whoever says that the score is pre-determined is completely and utterly wrong.

Are you trying to tell me that if the computer says you will win 3-0, that will happen? How does it then account for your tactical changes? If you change tactics to a 0-0-10; are you suggesting that the AI will miss a multitude of chances in order to maintain the planned scoreline?

Think about it.

Whoever says that the score is pre-determined is completely and utterly wrong.

Are you trying to tell me that if the computer says you will win 3-0, that will happen? How does it then account for your tactical changes? If you change tactics to a 0-0-10; are you suggesting that the AI will miss a multitude of chances in order to maintain the planned scoreline?

Think about it.

Can't people read on here?!

I've said (twice in the last 4 posts) that whenever one of the teams make a change, the match engine re-simulates the rest of the match from that point.

Whoever says that the score is pre-determined is completely and utterly wrong.

Are you trying to tell me that if the computer says you will win 3-0, that will happen? How does it then account for your tactical changes? If you change tactics to a 0-0-10; are you suggesting that the AI will miss a multitude of chances in order to maintain the planned scoreline?

Think about it.

Once you start the match the half-time score is calculated. If you make any changes during the half like changing your tactics to 0-0-10 it will recalculate and take these changes into account. The same thing happens for the 2nd half.

And for the main topic the AI does not cheat.

I believe the outcomes of many cup games and playoff games are already known by the computer.

In real life, these games have a high percentage of extra time play and penalty kicks to decide them (probably because they are tense games and the players are afraid of making mistakes).

If you've played this game enough, you can almost predict that if one team is down a goal late in the game, there will be a last-second goal to send the game into overtime and eventually penalty kicks.

You believe wrong.

I believe the outcomes of many cup games and playoff games are already known by the computer.

In real life, these games have a high percentage of extra time play and penalty kicks to decide them (probably because they are tense games and the players are afraid of making mistakes).

If you've played this game enough, you can almost predict that if one team is down a goal late in the game, there will be a last-second goal to send the game into overtime and eventually penalty kicks.

None of that has any basis in reality, I'm afraid.

You'll see evidence of the prevalence of draws in these games in the computer's prediction before the game. They usually say "I predict a tense, close game that will likely go to penalty kicks." A lot of cup finals are decided this way in real life.

You'll see evidence of the prevalence of draws in these games in the computer's prediction before the game. They usually say "I predict a tense, close game that will likely go to penalty kicks." A lot of cup finals are decided this way in real life.

I find that a lot of those predictions are wrong which I suppose does reflect real life analysis.

I dont think the Ai cheats or match scores are already desided..

the game can be hard and may be there isnt enough feed back to know why somthing isnt working or weather its just down to your player beeing a pratt..

instead of having to make a formation, tactic to fit in with the match engine or what ever it is that calculates the match etc, id like to be able to take my players on training days and beable to draw arrows and moves that i want my player to make in certain situations. that way our personalities and how we think attacking and defensive play should be adopted etc. this would then be developed into the training of the team thus making your team and players play the game how you see fit..

it would also then create preferd moves for players depending on what they are beeing shown at your club under your managment..

in FM)9 where you can tell a player to lern a move. i think thats wrong,. i think over time players will becme good at soem moves which should be down to the ability of the individual to deside..

there will be thousands of players end up with the same preferd moves. and in all honesty 75% of wingers with high dribbling will run with the ball any way so you dont need to ask him to lern it,

something which generally annoys me when i see other users post it, but in this instance its warranted.

Use the search button in future.

AI cheating , you mean it does something other from what it is programmed to ?

If it is that smart i can teach it to help me out in my job.

Of course it doesn't cheat or somehow suddenly decide to make you lose because you're doing too well. I'd suggest that this guy who's supposedly tried 400 tactics is not particularly good at FM.

Tactics aren't everything, there's a lot more that goes into winning a match than just getting the right tactic. As I said in your other thread, I use the same tactic with no tweaking at all and have plenty of success. I've never once felt the game was 'pulling me back' because I was doing to well. I constantly over-achieve if anything.

But don't take my word for it. Go to the tactics forum, download Kimz tactic (read the thead to find which version is the best) and pick a league where one team is much better than the other teams in that league. Apply the tactic and see what happens. I for one don't like using game breaking tactics like Kimz, I've tried it once to help disprove the fact that the game cheats in any way. The fact is, no matter what you think of these type of tactics, for the game to cheat it would have to stop you winning regardless of the tactic, the team and the league you're in. But it doesn't. Using a 'cheat' tactic such as this with a strong team in a weak league, you can hammer the opposition. Therefore the game cannot be cheating.

I don't think it cheats

I put it down to a buggy match engine that produces far too many shots on goal, and to prevent he scoreline being ridiculous, goalkeepers save half the seemingly easy chances, giving the impression of a "super keeper"

*Or Chopper99 - they can edit all the players in one team into superstars with outstanding abilities, then win everything and watch the opposition (AI - no matter who the team) have absolutely no answer to it.

Bleh! This old debate again!

Until someone puts a clear unequivocal definition of exactly what they mean by "The AI" and by "cheating" this debate is utterly pointless.

I couldn't care less, as long as the game remains enjoyable (which it does, for me).

How can it cheat? It does as it's programmed to do.

Problem is the 2D shows the sort of constant w*nk that probably gives the impression of being cheated.

lol @ sirdez24

Bleh! This old debate again!

Until someone puts a clear unequivocal definition of exactly what they mean by "The AI" and by "cheating" this debate is utterly pointless.

AI - Artificial intelligence, pretty self-explanatory

Cheating - In the context of FM it would mean gaining an advantage dishonestly

So, on with the debate!

The "AI" has no interest in cheating. And for that guy "testing" 400+ tactics, he's either a moron or this is a case of random luck. I've tried out more than one tactic for the same games to see for my self, and the results was different. Besides it has always been obvious to me, that the tactics you use occur on the pitch. If his theory is correct, I should be able to form a 1-2-2-5 tactic and win the same games as all other tactics... Nope, not happening.

The AI simulates, and that's it. I'm a living proof that it doesn't cheat, since I've seen evidence that states otherwise (My evidence is as good as that "test"-guys evidence). And if he get's 400 same results with 400 different tactics, he's obviously not doing anything right regarding testing. For someone to actually determine whether the AI cheats or not he would have to slice datafiles and conclude exactly how the AI is programmed (Like FIFA 08/Euro 08).

lol @ sirdez24

Well, if I buy the game and only have an hour to play it each day, and the only indication that my tactics aren't working is that I'm constantly battering the AI goal and seeing great chances wasted on the 2D, while they go down and score from just a handful of chances (usually a deflected freekick or from a corner), what am I going to think? Of course I'm going to feel cheated. That the 2D often shows a poor/rushed chance as a clear-cut scoring opportunity just adds to the problem.

Tactics or not, it happens far, far too often on this version, and is the single biggest issue in terms of people feeling cheated.

I know what AI means in a general sense and I know what cheating means in a general sense, but an AI program can be neither honest nor dishonest, it doesn't have a brain. Also "the AI" covers a whole load of modules within FM and if people really mean that the actual artificial intelligence algorithms themselves cheat...then we must all fear for our lives if AI programs have that kind of ability of their own accord!

So, on with the debate!

My problem with this "debate" is, that I can see exactly how it will go, and within 20 more posts at least 2 "fanboys" and 2 "moaners" will have been used. It's been had before and noone ever agrees, yawn yawn yawn, sorry to be dismissive, but there are more interesting and worthy threads being pushed down the page byt this duplicate thread.