10.4 vs FM 2011

Do you think that SI guys should work on FM 2010 10.4 patch or move on to FM 2011 project?

Vote, please.

I'm sure this is going to change things...

Move on to 2011, for two reasons:

1. That's what they're doing.

2. Otherwise, they get less time with 2011... which means bugs... which means yet another year of bitching and moaning about patching this and patching that, this is broken that is broken, you should have spent more time on this, more time on that...

No no..who cares as to what they are doing. Give your personal opinion, it might affect FM in the long run

They should release every other year and release a REAL and I mean REAL data update with an updated league table and everything, every transfer window or new year. Kind of like how EA does. They could charge a few dollars for it. But only release the game every other year. I've said it already, I refuse to buy another FM game.

They should move on to FM11. I don’t see too many things wrong with 10.3 patch apart from the corner bug.

Even the corner bug isn't really an issue as you don’t have to use it if you don’t want to. I have seen a lot of people complain about the injuries but I find them pretty realistic now. It was pretty stupid being able to have most of your 1st team play 50/60 + games without picking up even a slight knock.

Also as someone said if they take time to do a 4th patch then thats less time to get FM11 right resulting in a more bugged game.

Voted for 10.4, although i could easily have voted for FM11 as well.

The choice fell on the patching strategy, which i really dislike. Patching should be done when needed. Isn't that why you patch things up, when something is broken?

Feels like every new release is just a big patch, with some new features that's been rushed to get in the game.

Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of good stuff every year, but why does a lot of it need 4 months to get right? If it's supposed to be out then and then, don't put in more stuff than they can handle at the time. Not what they might be able to fix in 1 or 2 versions time, with some end-to-end tweaks within 3 patches.

Just a bit grumpy in the morning today

They should release every other year and release a REAL and I mean REAL data update with an updated league table and everything, every transfer window or new year. Kind of like how EA does. They could charge a few dollars for it. But only release the game every other year. I've said it already, I refuse to buy another FM game.

I like this idea. I don't see a big enough change in a game from one year to the next, but for example, I bought FM08 loved it, couldn't get enough and when FM09 came out I tried the demo and just see anything glaring that caught my interest. So I waited until 2010 and it is quite a vast improvement between FM08 and now.

They should release every other year and release a REAL and I mean REAL data update with an updated league table and everything, every transfer window or new year. Kind of like how EA does. They could charge a few dollars for it. But only release the game every other year. I've said it already, I refuse to buy another FM game.

Why don't you just buy the game every other year?

I started that strategy after FM 2008 (I skipped 2009; Bought 2010), and I can say it's definitely refreshing. Each version you get feels like a true new version, instead of a re-skinned data update.

Why don't you just buy the game every other year?

I started that strategy after FM 2008 (I skipped 2009; Bought 2010), and I can say it's definitely refreshing. Each version you get feels like a true new version, instead of a re-skinned data update.

Because the game is still half of what it should be.

And for those that say they should focus on FM2011. We are paying good money for a half made game. They have more than enough money and more than enough people to make a new game and patch the current FM until then. What they forget is if they patch it right or make it right, then more people will continue to buy it.

Look if they keep patching the game until lets say May 2010. The last data update can be at the seasons end. So its right before the summer transfers. I'm dying to play that. I'm sick of starting a new season with these garbage transfers managers make. I want to play as an actual NEW manager. Its May the old one gets sacked and I'm in. Not having to wait 6 months to a year to revamp the squad because players don't feel like moving as they are new to the club.

If you don't believe me then look at the Weegie data updates and the sort. Massive people download AS the summer processes. So I'm sure one final May update where you start in May or June without any new transfers would be nice.

The Belarus and Russia bug is a major lack of professionalism. Then they actually say oh its easy enough for you to fix it on your own. Oh if its easy enough by don't they do it? Seriously. This genre lack competition. Even the FM 3d is old news. LMA had it and FIFA has it. But LMA is gone, FIFA and CM just blow. The lack of competition has hurt this genre and more so this game.

Notice the 2 polls created by the TS...

i can't see why someone would want 10.4 at the risk of fm 2011 being unfinished. 10.3 is great people seem to have criticised it too much, i've found it great and whatever needs fixing can be fixed for 2011.

In particular the corner bug has been blown out of proportion, heres a solution don't use it.

i can't see why someone would want 10.4 at the risk of fm 2011 being unfinished. 10.3 is great people seem to have criticised it too much, i've found it great and whatever needs fixing can be fixed for 2011.

In particular the corner bug has been blown out of proportion, heres a solution don't use it.

That's the thing. I dare to almost guarantee that FM2011 will be "unfinished" when it comes, anyway. I would be suprised if the game is good enough to play without a patch being released around release day. That, in my opinion, is the thing that is almost unacceptble. Almost.

I hope they'll prove me wrong though

It just never feels like a version is a complete product. It's just a build-up to the next version. If it continues like that we will never have a game that fulfills its potential. It's the best football management game on the market, but still with a lot of potential.

And it seems like they've tried to squeeze in too much in too little time, so it becomes too much for them to handle. As they have a hard time getting things balanced.

When FM11 comes out there will, most likely, be bugs that were ironed out for FM10 or earlier versions, but comes back when there's a new game. That tells me that they don't really have 100% control of what they're doing. They know what they're doing, but they've taken on too many things compared to what they can handle.

The lack of comptetition on the market is also a bad thing. SEGA/SI can pretty much do as they please at the moment. "Managers" will mostly stick to FM anyways because of that.

I do believe, though, that the annual release thing might probably a SEGA thing. Which puts SI under more pressure than they need and deserve.

Despite all this; criticism is good though, as it gives the makers a better picture of what the people want. That way they can compare what they want from the game to what the customers want from the game. And that way it can only get better.

Which it does. But i believe they can still do so much better.

If they release a product, whether it's annually or not, i would expect that they follow up with patches and fixes for as long as they take in money on the product. If there are things that aren't the way they should, then it makes the product not complete.

Now that might be something that is hard to achieve, but certainly not impossible. And if they've decided to "play that game", then i'd expect them to finish the game as well.

That's the thing. I dare to almost guarantee that FM2011 will be "unfinished" when it comes, anyway. I would be suprised if the game is good enough to play without a patch being released around release day. That, in my opinion, is the thing that is almost unacceptble. Almost.

I hope they'll prove me wrong though

It just never feels like a version is a complete product. It's just a build-up to the next version. If it continues like that we will never have a game that fulfills its potential. It's the best football management game on the market, but still with a lot of potential.

And it seems like they've tried to squeeze in too much in too little time, so it becomes too much for them to handle. As they have a hard time getting things balanced.

When FM11 comes out there will, most likely, be bugs that were ironed out for FM10 or earlier versions, but comes back when there's a new game. That tells me that they don't really have 100% control of what they're doing. They know what they're doing, but they've taken on too many things compared to what they can handle.

The lack of comptetition on the market is also a bad thing. SEGA/SI can pretty much do as they please at the moment. "Managers" will mostly stick to FM anyways because of that.

I do believe, though, that the annual release thing might probably a SEGA thing. Which puts SI under more pressure than they need and deserve.

Despite all this; criticism is good though, as it gives the makers a better picture of what the people want. That way they can compare what they want from the game to what the customers want from the game. And that way it can only get better.

Which it does. But i believe they can still do so much better.

If they release a product, whether it's annually or not, i would expect that they follow up with patches and fixes for as long as they take in money on the product. If there are things that aren't the way they should, then it makes the product not complete.

Now that might be something that is hard to achieve, but certainly not impossible. And if they've decided to "play that game", then i'd expect them to finish the game as well.

Not all the criticism is good, what you've posted is constructive and useful to SI if its not a bit exaggerated. A lot of the criticism posted on here though is childish at best and it tends to divert people from the fact that this game has a lot of work put into it and it truly is brilliant.

Sure a little more competition would be beneficial to the users but lets not pretend like the game is only half finished or unplayable but instead give credit to SI to what they have done, praise them for free patches to constantly better the game after its release and provide them with constructive posts that will better the game in the future. Enough with this 10.4 nonsense.

There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. Patch. 10.3

No no..who cares as to what they are doing. Give your personal opinion, it might affect FM in the long run

It wont......

Move on. There has to be a cut-off at some point even though it doesn't suit some people. I find 10.3 perfectly playable and one of the best versions yet

You have done good job on 10.3 patch, (you brutalized Vermaelen again, but i forgive you ) It's time to move on and make fm2011, test it, fix bugs, put in soem new segment of gameplay for us and we will help you with critics, and you will release final product sooner and we will be happier

But surely with it being on steam patches are easier to apply meaning if somethings broke why can't it just be fixed straight away? Fair enough everytime it's updated we have to start a new game to get all the changes but it has to be the way forward.

Not all the criticism is good, what you've posted is constructive and useful to SI if its not a bit exaggerated. A lot of the criticism posted on here though is childish at best and it tends to divert people from the fact that this game has a lot of work put into it and it truly is brilliant.

Sure a little more competition would be beneficial to the users but lets not pretend like the game is only half finished or unplayable but instead give credit to SI to what they have done, praise them for free patches to constantly better the game after its release and provide them with constructive posts that will better the game in the future. Enough with this 10.4 nonsense.

Yeah. I was supposed to say that. Thanks for pointing that out. Constructive criticism of course. Not the childish rubbish that pops up ever so often.

SI should definitely get credit for their amazing work. But i'll let the sales figures do that talking. They've created a damn good game year after year. I just think it's sad that it's regarded acceptable that a product is so faulty year after year when released, and they've "planned" to fix the wrongs 3 times during that following year. When they plan it, they know it's not the way it's supposed to be. Otherwise, why plan?

Now, no software is bug free. That's as good as impossible. I just don't like the planned 3-patch strategy. A patch, in my opinion, is supposed to fix things that weren't meant to be. Obvious flaws and bugs i'd like them to rectify, or at least try to, as often as they could. Whether it would be just one patch that managed to do it, or 10 if needed.

As long as they sell the product(s) for profit, then they should try to keep it as flawless as possible.

Like i also said, i don't believe SI are the main perpetrator (did i spell that correctly? :confused:) as SEGA puts a lot of pressure and strain by wanting an annual release.

I don't want to pay to run through a field of thorns and then, afterwards, find out that i only get 3 patches to deal with any injuries. If i get a massive fleshwound i would expect that the organizers are there for support and help to fix those injuries as they happen.

Sorry about that horrible analogy, it just came out

But yeah. All credit to SI for a wonderful game which i love. My day wouldn't be as good without it. Although it can be a pain in the butt as well, knowing how addictive it can be

10.4! The new FM will be bugged as always and due to tradition it will be playable maybe on February. Maybe.

Why don't you just buy the game every other year?

I started that strategy after FM 2008 (I skipped 2009; Bought 2010), and I can say it's definitely refreshing. Each version you get feels like a true new version, instead of a re-skinned data update.

This is what i am doing, and i agree its really a good way to go.

New additions to the game tend to need a little fine tunning. Remember the problems with club expectations on 08? well i have gone straight from that to this version and it is miles better. So very happy with that.

10.3 is brilliant for me, no reason to leave it behind anytime soon.

10.3 is the best yet and there is absolutely no need for a 10.4 roll on FM 11.

agreed, Football Manager 2010 v10.3. is the ultimate managerial experience available to the general public.

There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. Patch. 10.3

IN. Your. Opinion.

I think we get spoiled by the amount of patches we already get.

I was happy with 10.1 in that, if I didn't read the forums I would have never have noticed the "bugs". To think of the number of CM versions I bought in the old days that had no patches - I still played them to death and I was happy to buy each new season.

I hate the Zeitgeist thats around this forum sometimes. FM is a product, it is not a service. As customers, we are not owed countless patches - it is infact a bonus that we get any at all.

So the ME is not perfect, oh noes! I've got more things to worry about in life than a football simulation game where my little dots don't mark the A.I dot at the front post!

So in summary, bring on FM11 in all its flawed goodness!

(Personally, I blame WoW for the culture of whining on internet forums these days!)

Move on. There has to be a cut-off at some point even though it doesn't suit some people. I find 10.3 perfectly playable and one of the best versions yet

Wow, well doesn't this say a lot. How can it be one of the best versions. This means that you think previous versions are better. It's basically the same game but with IMPROVEMENTS and ADD-ONS every season so how can it be in fact worse than previous years games? Surely every year it should be quite a bit better than the previous years game. Are they reinventing the wheel each time?

The whole question is irrelevant because people would still find things to complain about if there was a 10.4.

They are not currently working on a patch, so even if they started tomorrow it would take several weeks, possibly a couple of months, to fix the current minor issues, then test them AND check the hundreds of knock-on effects these fixes may have AND all the other issues that us non-programmers can't even hope to understand.

I've seen so many comments on the forums that suggest the ME is an easy thing to programme, that the minor flaws (headers/long shots/"superkeepers") are down to SI's laziness or stupidity. The whole attitude of "have they never WATCHED football?" really shows how people just don't get how tough this is. The current game is the best iteration yet IMO, not perfect by any means, but hugely enjoyable and worth the money.

Those weeks/months spent polishing FM2010 further will set FM2011 back a long way. So since there is nothing game-breaking into he current patch, I say give them a couple of weeks off while they (presumably) lock in the strategy for FM2011. (Not that they're on holiday of course, but you know what I mean)

The whole question is irrelevant because people would still find things to complain about if there was a 10.4.

Probably a better comment than my mini-lecture. Kudos.

I definately will not be buying FM2011.

Usually when I find a game that is fun and decent I stick to it for a couple of years.

I am still playing PES2008 and this FM2010 will probably serve me well for 2 or 3 years.

I noticed when I buy back to back FM's a lot of bugs still linger and not much really changes so not worth really spending the money.

I don't see the point of an extra patch to be honest.

What I don't understand is why does SI not give into their customer demands and just come out with a flawless version of this wonderful series and then charge people for seasonal updates. I would gladly pay for updates every summer season if SI would JUST MAKE IT RIGHT! I don't think that a new patch would solve anything in relation to this series. Many aspects of FM are pretty much the same since FM 2006: the tactics, the match engine, the transfer system, the AI, etc. SI only changed things around, prettied up what was unsightly instead of addressing the true source of the problem. Let's face it, despite the fact that I so dearly love this game and it's basically the only game I buy on a yearly basis, it's still the same game I bought in 2005 and in 2006, and in 2007, and so on with minor changes.

What I think should be improved, in this order, would GLADLY get me paying an extra 10 euros for my copy and would make the game PERFECT:

1. The AI is simply inadequate for this sort of game. In lower leagues AI managers sell players easily worth 3 times what they're given to SPEND and then buy crap instead leading to an unbalanced league. Similarly, in top leagues player buys are simply erratic or nonexistent. Take for example a Serie A game I was running with Milan where at one point I had won 5 league titles in a row because Juventus, Inter and Roma would buy NOTHING for whole transfer windows. What's the point to all of this? Furthermore the AI has absolutely NO PURPOSE in this game other than to impede human players from reaching the goals imposed by the board. I haven't seen AI managers being sacked for failing to qualify for continental competitions, taking top teams right above the relegation zone (latest example - Sir Alex Ferguson is still "Very secure" despite having finished 11th in the first season!), or striving to do anything other than blocking players. Finally the AI is very easily broken up by game exploiting tactics and generally is only set to react by given patterns to player actions. It certainly chips off a bit of the enjoyment in seeing the AI go more attacking when they're 3 goals down, but trying to counter you when you're not dominating just because you have a higher rep team!

2. Dynamic league reputation: this topic has been discussed so many times it's not even worth mentioning again as it will surely lead to another long handed discussion about what should, or shouldn't be, the way to do this right. It should just be implemented, period.

3. Better press conferences and more interaction with the game world. At this point the fans, press and board are there for a sole purpose: to make life more difficult for players! Press conferences, no matter how well the question is rephrased, still just give players 5 choice ranging from "Strongly agree" to "Wholly disagree" with said statement. Why can't we have OTHER answering options? For example, when questioned about what style players will implement couldn't we have 2-3 extra options such as "I haven't had time to see how the team trains, so I just couldn't come up with a tactic yet" or "I think I'll need a few more players before I can settle on some tactics". Also, despite the fact that fans b*tch all the time players can never interact, they can never call up a press conference to ease fans' complaints about form, new signings, etc. making that whole part of the game just a simple filler. Finally the board is an immovable rock that has ABSOLUTELY no AI of its own. It's a preset thing that tries to make life harder and this is clearly evidenced by the fact that it never interacts with players, the press, etc. and then comes up with absurd requests. Why can't the board have a more active role in FM? Such as reacting positively/negatively to press conferences, fans' pressure or lifetime achievements of managers. Instead, unless you as a manager manage to do something historic (Win CL) the board remembers NONE of your previous activities.

4. Improve and/or fix the ME, and I don't just mean fix a corner bug here, an injury problem there but make the match engine LOOK LIKE REAL FOOTBALL! This includes ball physics, keepers not dropping a ball they clearly would've been able to catch, midfielders not missing with an empty goal ahead of them just because they don't have 15 finishing, stats being accurately reflected in the game (players with heading 2 shouldn't be scoring next to never from central defenders with heading 19 much less so several times a season!), improve closing down, mitigate scorelines in the region of 3-2, 4-5, 6-3, etc. Generally tighten up things!

5. Improve the 3D graphics to a level that they're acceptable to most people. I personally just can't enjoy games in 3D. It's way too ugly, there's way too many bugs, actions/ball physics aren't clearly reflected, etc.

6. Improve the quality of research. I mean no disrespect to researchers out there but there's just simply TOO MANY mistakes! 8 month injuries that shouldn't be, players that are playing for the wrong teams, stadiums that haven't been upgraded in half a decade (literally!) and so on.

I personally could care less if nothing new was added, or changed, or whatever so long as everything was fixed and improved! FM is already a complex game, head and shoulders above the competition so it's the small touches that make this game great. If those bits of detail are fixed/enhanced then I would gladly pay not only for season updates but I would pay more for my game, just so I can play it from when it comes out until when the other comes and not just after the 1st/2nd/3rd patch, etc.

</rant>

I definately will not be buying FM2011.

Usually when I find a game that is fun and decent I stick to it for a couple of years.

I am still playing PES2008 and this FM2010 will probably serve me well for 2 or 3 years.

I noticed when I buy back to back FM's a lot of bugs still linger and not much really changes so not worth really spending the money.

I don't see the point of an extra patch to be honest.

I will buy it, but in March.

Don't think I will be buying FM2011. This moneymaking "release an unfinished game every year" is getting old now. It takes 2-3 patches/~4 months until the game is worth playing.

Don't think I will be buying FM2011. This moneymaking "release an unfinished game every year" is getting old now.

Not as old as the unrealistic expectation of a business to take a year off from actually earning any money or the chronic over reaction to every little flaw.

I vote for 2012. Leaves them enough time to .. sort it out?

Move on to FM11. There's got to be a cut-off point somewhere, and people are just as likely to find something wrong with 10.4 as they are with all the other patches. Then what do SI do? Do they make a 10.5? Then someone complains about that one. Do they make a 10.6? The madness has to stop somewhere, and SI's stand was always that there would be 3 patches, no more.

And FM11 will be better the more time is spent on it.

What I don't understand is why does SI not give into their customer demands and just come out with a flawless version of this wonderful series

That's one of the funniest things I've read for ages. No game will ever be flawless.

Choosed 10.4 as i feel the minor bugs what is left in fm10 can be rectified pretty quickly and too me the game is unfinished until it's completely sorted.

Ok buy FM11 in November but your be waiting until March again for more patches before you can play it to it's full potential. Everytime they add new features to the game, it then adds more coding issues which is like a chain reaction, which then revolves in bugs and every year is the same ole, same ole.

Would rather them wait till Feb next year knowing they have worked longer and tested longer, as 7 months is not a long time to produce a bigger and better game.

That's one of the funniest things I've read for ages. No game will ever be flawless.

Glad you're having fun but it was just a figure of speech

Not as old as the unrealistic expectation of a business to take a year off from actually earning any money or the chronic over reaction to every little flaw.

It's not unrealistic. Most games have a 2-3 year (or more) development cycle. FM is just a yearly refinement of an existing game, not a new game. They must have racked up £££'s.

Considering that this thread is likely to attract every single whinger and complainer on here I'm happy to see how solid the majority for moving on to FM11 is even under these circumstances

WAGHERTY!11

Does anyone else think SI should do a F1 manager game, with all the hype of the new season I'd love to be in charge of Schumi and the gang

i think a 10.4 is pointless. and i think codemasters have rights to F1 but a F1 managing game would be amazing.

Does anyone else think SI should do a F1 manager game, with all the hype of the new season I'd love to be in charge of Schumi and the gang

That is not a bad idea. I quite enjoy it.

I played a lot F1 simulation game in the old spectrum and it was very nice.

But highly unlikely because SI had other games and decided to scrap them to focus on FM.

Wow, well doesn't this say a lot. How can it be one of the best versions. This means that you think previous versions are better. It's basically the same game but with IMPROVEMENTS and ADD-ONS every season so how can it be in fact worse than previous years games? Surely every year it should be quite a bit better than the previous years game. Are they reinventing the wheel each time?

The bold parts have answered your own question

How can something with improvements not be better?

It makes me giggle that people think that buying the game in March or whatever would actually hurt SI's sales. It wouldn't! It would hurt the retailers who have already bought and paid SI for the copies of the game

so if SI release a patch 10.4 and there is another couple of flaws then what? patch 10.5? 10.6? when would everyone suggest it stopped? Why don't SI just shut down production of new titles all together and just release free to download updates, all the while hemorrhaging money until they have to close their doors all together so there would be no new releases and no precious updates.

10.3 is the best update released to date imo and takes fm10 from the best management game of the year to the best management game in a decade. FM2011 will be better if SI get time to develop it.

It's not unrealistic. Most games have a 2-3 year (or more) development cycle. FM is just a yearly refinement of an existing game, not a new game. They must have racked up £££'s.

FM may outsell everything here, but it not in the US. They don't make anything like the £££s you think.

Most games with 2-3 year development cycles are not sports games. Most sports games are produced every year. If that is your business model and you reinvest money (e.g. expanding the 3D area) then you are not going to have 3 years capital to keep paying wages. More importantly, your competitor has time in which to secure the market, potentially hurting sales when you do finally get the game out.

SI have frequently stated themselves that they need to make a game each year, so I'm not just guessing here.

FM may outsell everything here, but it not in the US. They don't make anything like the £££s you think.

Most games with 2-3 year development cycles are not sports games. Most sports games are produced every year. If that is your business model and you reinvest money (e.g. expanding the 3D area) then you are not going to have 3 years capital to keep paying wages. More importantly, your competitor has time in which to secure the market, potentially hurting sales when you do finally get the game out.

SI have frequently stated themselves that they need to make a game each year, so I'm not just guessing here.

SI need to make a game every year as that is part of the deal with SEGA.