No longer a 'legend'

After seeing the latest press release regarding FM 2010 I can't help but feel FM is going totally away from what I want out of a footie manager game.

Before I go on I just want to say I don't want to create any negativity towards SI, they want to go down the relism route for their game which is fair enough, but this doesn't interest me in the slightest. I don't want total realism in a game, the point of a game in my opinion, is it should be fun.

I have recently read the interview with CM's head guy who was openly critical of SI but didn't specifically go down any routes when criticising them. I can only assume it is the realism he doesn't like about FM because CM are apparently going to make their game serious but with a fun element with CM 2010. I fully support his views.

While SI are conituously supporting their approach to how they make their game and saying that 09 was the best selling game and ranked no.1 for so many weeks etc, I can't help but feel this is irrelevant. Obviously with the amount of publicity generated these days with any game the fan base was going to rise. Football is becoming increasingly popular in the uk and fans are becoming more opinionated, thus making them think (probably) that they could be a manager. The biggest game out there at the minute is FM, they buy it and love it, in most cases, some not.

This is the major problem I think with the recent surveys and market research done on recent FM's. A lot of people are newcomers to the series and didn't experience CM's on the Amiga (yes it is a cliche!). During those times the game was played by nowhere near as many people but was enjoyed by most who played it and the earlier versions have become almost legend now. People still talk about Mark Collis and Ferah Orosco to this day! The game was fun then and not so serious but as I said was loved and not very controversial at all.

Maybe the reality issue is the reason why SI and Eidos went their own ways not long ago. CM seems to be heading towards serious stats, detailed data and realistic gameplay with a fun element. SI seem to be heading towards serious gameplay all the way, no compromise.

Personally I don't want to be constantly tweaking tactics during a game or even send my AM or go myself to press conferences which are pointless. I have bought every release of FM/CM seince I was at high school (now 29!) and upon the split with SI/Eidos I went with SI because in my opinion FM was better then, with FM 07 being one of the best games ever in my opinion.

It is a sad day for me however because I won't be buying FM 10. I will be supporting CM from now on and giving them my funds to go down the path I think is right, fun with serious elements. I cant help but feel as I mentioned earlier that there are a lot of new fans who love the latest games and I am happy for them, but I havent done since 08. I also feel that SI are taking on board the opinions of the new fans more so than the older loyal fans purely because they promote the game more and like it more. Obviously they will do this because they are selling more, but lets be right, if a company didnt sell more these days with the amount of publicity and debates on the net, reviews, advertisements (both free and not) then they would be failing massively. New fans won't know the joy of the older games.

Anyway good luck to SI, CM here I come! (and FM 07 saved games every now and then!)

No doubt there will be a million responses from people saying I have played the game for several years and I love it now blah blah blah, all I can say to that is I have done my own research through my own company ( I am self employed) and come to these conclusions. As I said I dont want to argue, just wanted to make it clear to Si they have lost yet another long term fan.

SI have always been the "serious" football game makers, while other people make more novelty games. I mean, the last serious competition they had was Ultimate Soccer manager, which was far more "fun" and less "realistic" than CM at the time.

SI have always moved towards realism. It's always been their goal. They feel that the best long term fun is found in realism not gimmicks.

Don't get me wrong. I'll be trying CM as well as FM this year. Which comes out on top won't be decided on which direction the games go in, but rather which is the better overall package.

As for the whole "new players like the game, old players are driven away", you've done a little research with people who work with you. Guess what? That's statistically insignificant. I dare say SEGA have far better research on the matter than you do.

Fair enough, I suppose. Personnally, I think you making the wrong decision, but I'm not going to criticise that.

I have recently read the interview with CM's head guy who was openly critical of SI but didn't specifically go down any routes when criticising them. I can only assume it is the realism he doesn't like about FM because CM are apparently going to make their game serious but with a fun element with CM 2010. I fully support his views.

Can you link to this interview with the CM guy?

Personally I don't want to be constantly tweaking tactics during a game

I feel this would be required in real life, so I am happy to tweak them if it means success for my team.

A lot of people are newcomers to the series and didn't experience CM's on the Amiga (yes it is a cliche!). During those times the game was played by nowhere near as many people but was enjoyed by most who played it and the earlier versions have become almost legend now.

I agree that it is more difficult and complicated for people who buy FM07, 08 or 09 as their first FM games. As I have played this for many, many years, I know what to expect. However, if these newcomers just give it time, I'm sure most of them would begin to enjoy it after a short while (which should be the case with many games with a similar amount of depth).

Personally, I don't want a gimmicky game but a game that is challenging and as close to real football as possible.

The challenge and realism is the fun for me

I have to say, I find the opposite; the only issues I have with the game is it not being realistic enough imo. I'm looking to really have the experience of being a football manager; I've posted elsewhere about my thoughts on how I think it could be improved, but if S.I are committed to making it more realistic, that's good enough for me to keep with them.

While SI are conituously supporting their approach to how they make their game and saying that 09 was the best selling game and ranked no.1 for so many weeks etc, I can't help but feel this is irrelevant.

This is the major problem I think with the recent surveys and market research done on recent FM's. A lot of people are newcomers to the series and didn't experience CM's on the Amiga (yes it is a cliche!). During those times the game was played by nowhere near as many people but was enjoyed by most who played it and the earlier versions have become almost legend now. People still talk about Mark Collis and Ferah Orosco to this day! The game was fun then and not so serious but as I said was loved and not very controversial at all.

It's as irrelevant as the fact that a lot of people are newcomers or that a majority of people who owned the amiga version liked it. There was far less choice back then, little to nothing to compare it to processing wise and graphics wise, so it stands to reason that the majority would like it. It also didn't have as many critically acclaimed predecessors to compare with.

If you're going to compare unabridged fun from an era when simulation was a distant dream, with the games of the noughties (cringe), then prepare to be let down.

I don't really have a problem with difficulty and realism of the game itself - but I do have a problem with user interface (especially when it comes to tactics), which is immensely frustrating and generally horrible. It literally takes some 20 to 30 minutes of constant clicking, checking, dragging and pushing sliders to get the formation and tactics set the way you want - and that providing you know the formation you want (when following instructions from TT&F, for example), double the time if you want to make a set of 3-5 formations.

When you want to build your own formation and tactics around the team you have from scratch, it takes even more time with constant tweaking to get them to play right in the first place. Heavens forbid you want to change the actual formation and substitute in a player and give him a different role - it's another 5 minute session of clicking, dragging and checking on individual instructions per player, you pretty much lose track of the match you were playing.

By all means make the game realistic, difficult and all - but fix the interface, because this is simply bad game design. In FM08/09 I've ended up downloading the better formation sets around and used them, which I genuinely DO NOT want to do, but I'm forced to if I want the game to have any sort of normal flow.

In FM08/09 I've ended up downloading the better formation sets around and used them, which I genuinely DO NOT want to do, but I'm forced to if I want the game to have any sort of normal flow.

Surely the fact that there are good formation sets available proves otherwise.

Also, the need to tweak is a myth.

Surely the fact that there are good formation sets available proves otherwise.

Also, the need to tweak is a myth.

I can 100% agree with this Some saves I can be a very lazy player and have not tweeked the formation from the start of the season etc, I have won cups and league's doing this, you just need the right tactic to start with

I don't really have a problem with difficulty and realism of the game itself - but I do have a problem with user interface (especially when it comes to tactics), which is immensely frustrating and generally horrible. It literally takes some 20 to 30 minutes of constant clicking, checking, dragging and pushing sliders to get the formation and tactics set the way you want - and that providing you know the formation you want (when following instructions from TT&F, for example), double the time if you want to make a set of 3-5 formations.

When you want to build your own formation and tactics around the team you have from scratch, it takes even more time with constant tweaking to get them to play right in the first place. Heavens forbid you want to change the actual formation and substitute in a player and give him a different role - it's another 5 minute session of clicking, dragging and checking on individual instructions per player, you pretty much lose track of the match you were playing.

By all means make the game realistic, difficult and all - but fix the interface, because this is simply bad game design. In FM08/09 I've ended up downloading the better formation sets around and used them, which I genuinely DO NOT want to do, but I'm forced to if I want the game to have any sort of normal flow.

Have you been paying any attention to the announcement and the screenshots? Everything you've just described here is exactly what will be made redundant by the new tactics creation tool. No more dragging sliders around and breaking your head over where they should be in relation to each other (some even had mathematical methods to do this). Choose your formation and strategy and define player roles, all in a simple language a footballer would understand in real life (and they're not too clever in general are they). No more bringing on a sub and spending several minutes adjusting your tactic. Just sub him on, tell him his role and a few other instructions if necessary.

Reading that comment, you must've missed the announcement altogether or something?

Reading that comment, you must've missed the announcement altogether or something?

Uh... yeah it seems I did. I was just lurking around (as usual), saw this thread and posted the thing that bothered me the most. But I'm very glad to hear it's being sorted.

Personally, I don't want a gimmicky game but a game that is challenging and as close to real football as possible.

The challenge and realism is the fun for me

Exactly.

Also with regards to the game being too indepth, nonsence. If anything its not indepth enough. After 10 seasons it becomes same old same old and all you really do is click continue.

Have you been paying any attention to the announcement and the screenshots? Everything you've just described here is exactly what will be made redundant by the new tactics creation tool. No more dragging sliders around and breaking your head over where they should be in relation to each other (some even had mathematical methods to do this). Choose your formation and strategy and define player roles, all in a simple language a footballer would understand in real life (and they're not too clever in general are they). No more bringing on a sub and spending several minutes adjusting your tactic. Just sub him on, tell him his role and a few other instructions if necessary.

Reading that comment, you must've missed the announcement altogether or something?

I have been playing the new tactics system on FML

Pros:-

A complete tactical set in less than 5 mins

Easier to understand, everything set out in layman/football terminology

Newbies can instantly play the game without the steep learning curve

FML is constantly updated- so new player roles will be coming soon.

shouts instantly change settings

Cons:-

Player roles are generic

No customization of player roles

Any tweaks to player roles will mean that shouts will not change for that player and possibly cause an imbalance.

I can 100% agree with this Some saves I can be a very lazy player and have not tweeked the formation from the start of the season etc, I have won cups and league's doing this, you just need the right tactic to start with

Again i agree with this. There is no need to tweak at all one you have a good tactic. In my current game all i do is make sure the starting 11 are above 90ish% fitness and click go to match. I never change my formation or tactics home or away (no need to) and i have won 21 out of 22 games in the league in my current save.

The early CM's were atrocious: bug riddled, completely unbalanced and with stats that in no way reflected real life. You love them because you were a kid when you played them (or possibly just because they were the first management games). They are horrible games (limitation of the company and technology).

The early CM's were atrocious: bug riddled, completely unbalanced and with stats that in no way reflected real life. You love them because you were a kid when you played them (or possibly just because they were the first management games). They are horrible games (limitation of the company and technology).

You forgot to mention this is your opinion, not fact. The fact I loved them isn't because I was a kid, it was becuase they were simplistic but brilliant. You could do the front end management stuff and enjoy a simple but detailed game. Thanks for the assumption's though, nice reading.

I think the same answer applies to a lot of the replies to my OP.

Personally, I don't want a gimmicky game but a game that is challenging and as close to real football as possible.

The challenge and realism is the fun for me

As I said, I want a game that is serious, detailed and realistic but has a fun ELEMENT. CM seem to be wanting to give us this which is why I will support them. SI will have us wearing suits on matchdays soon by the sounds of it

As I said, I want a game that is serious, detailed and realistic but has a fun ELEMENT. CM seem to be wanting to give us this which is why I will support them. SI will have us wearing suits on matchdays soon by the sounds of it

And what do you mean by Fun element then? Isn't that just an opinion too? For me the fun element is the realism.

You forgot to mention this is your opinion, not fact. The fact I loved them isn't because I was a kid, it was becuase they were simplistic but brilliant. You could do the front end management stuff and enjoy a simple but detailed game. Thanks for the assumption's though, nice reading.

I think the same answer applies to a lot of the replies to my OP.

As I said, I want a game that is serious, detailed and realistic but has a fun ELEMENT. CM seem to be wanting to give us this which is why I will support them. SI will have us wearing suits on matchdays soon by the sounds of it

Why should I qualify everything I say as my opinion ? of course its my opinion I said it.

P.S. I remember a post not so long ago about someone who did put on a suit for his FM team's FA Cup Final. That is true dedication.

Lol Nick, I added that bit with aniticipation, hoping that someone would bring that up. I seem to remember reading somewhere, not sure where it was, that a guy got dressed up in his suit for big games, I couldn't believe it!; as you say, true dedication!

I'm sure you know my comments are tongue in cheek but I'm sure you also know what I meant in my OP or other posts with regards realism. I am not saying don't do it, it's just not what I want, good luck with FM10 though! I just hope I can stick with my decision to go to CM 10, but the fact I am still on FM07 suggests I should give it a try purely because I can't play your last two versions which is surely wasting my money lol....

Why should I qualify everything I say as my opinion ? of course its my opinion I said it.

Because you were stating things in such a way that it should be classed as true....

And what do you mean by Fun element then? Isn't that just an opinion too? For me the fun element is the realism.

Well I guess I mean not having to get everything absolutely spot on. I realise it is a slight contradiction when I say I want realism too but I think to put it in another way would be to say I want the balance between realism and fun to be such that I can enjoy the game without having to be a master tactition.

I know there are people on here who say you don't have to be but I don't think that is true, certainly not in my experiences anyway. I have been 3-0 (playing as Man Utd) up in a FA cup tie against a non league team with 10 minutes to go, all of a sudden the non league team bangs in 3 goals and takes it to a replay which all of a sudden happens again only at 1-0 up. I posted that on here saying it was ridiculous and was told I should have changed to defensive play, which again in my opinion is rubbish. Can you imagine ferguson playing Histon in round 3 in the same situation? Right Rooney, Berbatov and Nani, get off lads, you never know the threat these could possess unless we stick some defenders on! Yea right. The game should have played out to a 3-0 win, simple.

Tweaking every match is not needed I had loads of success early on with Getafe, Nantwich, Sunderland and Crewe without changing tactics during the match and most of the time I didnt change during the season at all.

I like the way you have written your OP, most posts like this turn into a silly rant. Although you bring up some good points they are your opinions and me and you have totally different opinions about the game I found FM09 to be the best FM yet and have spent more time playing it than any FM or CM in the past. I will also be checking out CM10 to see what they have to offer I think their demo is out tomorrow, in the future I may change to CM but most likely the better CM gets I will end up with both games.

I don't want total realism in a game, the point of a game in my opinion, is it should be fun.

But many people find realism fun, and unfortunately SI can't please everyone, so what are they supposed to do?

Because you were stating things in such a way that it should be classed as true....

Something being your opinion means you think its a truth/you support it, so obviously i would express my opinion in such a way as to suggest its true.

I have been 3-0 ...

You're right about this. The mental aspect should play part in the game, however in fm 09 it's overdone. I'm sure it's something that will be tweaked.

But many people find realism fun, and unfortunately SI can't please everyone, so what are they supposed to do?

I said total realism, I recently sent a tweet to SI on twitter (obviously!). I asked them if they were going to make the game a bit more fun this year, when I say fun I mean the user being more involved and feeling more part of the game rather than a master tactician (think I spelt that wrong in another post lol). The reply was a firm no and a suggestion of me buying the PSP version if I wanted fun...I don't want a PSP because I have too many games consoles or hand helds already! So I will try CM10, as I said in another post I haven't been able to get in to the last two versions of FM (I think it was my total disgust with 08) so I am wsting my money really.

Another guy mentioned a few things on here recently which suggested that when you retire from a club after 17 years in charge nothing happens, I have never thought about things like that tbh and think things like this should be part of the game but seem to be further away from SI's mind than the people in charge of CM, is it BGS or something?

I do like a bit of realism obviously but I don't want to witness my world class goalkeeper making a mistake after a backpass in the CL final when I am 2-1 up on 90 minutes which see's the opposition equalise then go on to win, I think that was a post on here backed up by video. Sorry but that disillusioned me further, I play in goal IRL and I can honestly say what happened on that video would NOT happen with me. Maybe I should be a hidden gem in the game lol...

You love them because you were a kid when you played them (or possibly just because they were the first management games)

This is not true, I know my own mind, this is a strong statement from you about someone you don't know earmack. I simply added that you should have made it clear it was your humble opinion because of the way you put your point across.

I don't know why you are continuing off topic, if you have something to say about what I am talking about please feel free to continue, otherwise I won't be replying to any other personal issues

Controlling the urges to make sarcastic remarks...

Go on.....please!

I don't understand why some people say "I need to tweak my tactics all the time to be successful". It probably takes me 10 minutes, if that to come up with a tactics set when I first join a club, and then no more than 30 seconds before each game making slight alterations depending on opposition and the players I've selected. I then don't touch tactics during the match quite often, and even if I do make changes it's never more than a couple of times a match.

I've done very well on FM2009, as well as FM2007 (not so much 08 which I struggled to get into) without tweaking my tactics all the time, and just creating a not too complicated set based on getting the best out of the players at my disposal.

For me FM today is as much fun as it was when I first played a CM game (CM4). The game's evolved and improved immensely in that time, and I personally am delighted with FM2009, and I like what SI have revealed so far about FM2010. I had a look at the demos of the 2007 versions of CM and Fifa Manager and they were miles behind, too far to have even caught up with FM2007 today, let alone 2009.

I don't understand why some people say "I need to tweak my tactics all the time to be successful". It probably takes me 10 minutes, if that to come up with a tactics set when I first join a club, and then no more than 30 seconds before each game making slight alterations depending on opposition and the players I've selected. I then don't touch tactics during the match quite often, and even if I do make changes it's never more than a couple of times a match.

Slight contradiction there Sir_Liam? 30 seconds before each game? no more than a couple of times each match? I want to set my tactics and leave them for the season unless it's absolutely necessary. Surely my players should have the intelligence to work out when to do certain things and not?

I think you may be surprised with CM 10 Sir_Liam judging by what I have read and seen screenshots wise. It certainly seems that while FM is holding it's own in the top dog stakes, CM has made massive strides from even two years ago (CM08 was a joke IMO).

I don't deny the game has improved since CM4, I just think it reached a peak in 07 and has gone backwards since then. I feel the realism and match engine were superb there and everything had a good feel. Since then no real changes have been made I don't think in terms of improving the gameplay, are press conferences welcomed? really? board confidence has got drastically worse, transfers haven't really improved as far as I can see, interaction with the press, players, coaches, and public has gone exactly nowhere.

I put a similar amount of time into tactics for FM2009 as I did in FM2005 when the slider system was first introduced (I think).

I regularly see posts by people saying "I spend hours doing tactics", and I believe those people are overcomplicating matters because they think the game is harder than it actually is.

Up to 30 seconds before each game (often not that much time), and 10 minutes at the start of a save game to put together a tactics set, which I tweak occasionly as I go along, is not a lot of time, and is perfectly reasonable for a game about football management, in which tactics are important.

If you understand football then the tactics shouldn't be too hard to get right, and shouldn't take too long.

Re CM, I watched a video that was posted on here introducing their new features. Some nice sounding ideas, but the match engine looked seriously flawed (although it wasn't finished) even in that video.

And I don't think their 5 stage set-piece creator is my idea of fun. I'd like a set-piece creator in FM, but not to that extent. I can imagine me spending half my time just trying to get set-pieces right.

I may give CM's demo a try at some point, just to see where they are, but I have no intention of buying the game as I'm very happy with what SI are doing.

It's a pointless argument since it's fortunately getting fixed in FM10 with the tactics creator thing, but -

I don't think I can create a tactic set in 10 minutes even if I had everything I want/need written down on paper next to me to copy it from - and I know, as it's exactly what I tried to do, following the TT&F guides. Perhaps if I was clicking like mad (maybe I'm just slow). And it certainly takes more than 30 seconds to just look at your opponent's team, and much more to make actual pre-match tweaks based on what you see. Just pushing one slider to the right position takes considerable time (for setting a single value in UI), especially when you have to COUNT the notches.

Overall, the amount of time you spend on the tactics screen for nothing else than setting values (raw clicking) to get what you want was really over the top in 08/09, match tweaks aside. It's not really "useful" gameplay time, it's an inherent interface problem - you could accomplish the same level of tactical detail by being able to, say, TYPE in a 1-20 value (or at least have the number show next to the slider), copy-paste individual instructions between players, and the like.

I was really not a fan of the 2007 match engine - to the point where I watched the games in commentary only so that I wouldn't destroy more things watching my players doing stupid and unrealistic things.

'05, '06 and '09 are the only FM games where I've watched the match engine in 2- (and now 3-) D. '08 was responsible for half a dozen mice replacements and '07 lead to a new monitor...

a manager game shouldn't be signing player and then play match, just as in real life tactics need to be changed for different teams and so on, its what a management game is all about

The CM10 demo is out btw.

It's not looking promising.

Without being rude, fair enough you have your views but we didn't need such a long self-centered post telling us why you are buying CM this year.

We get it, FM is too realistic for you, I personally much prefer realism and that's why I've got bored of any other management game I've played.

Goodbye, you won't be missed.

I loved FM07, IMO its ME is far better than 09s, where the football is dull, the players make the wrong mistakes (i.e. IRL a player would make X mistake, but a player in 09 makes a K mistake, as if compensating for something). Tactical adjustments seem to make little difference any more.

I mostly play 07 because of the (far superior IMO) ME, but I'll give FM2010 a go. I thought both the last two versions would be improvements on 07, but they weren't- if anything they're still trying to catch up! I've decided I won't buy 2010 unless the ME is better than 07s, regardless of the other changes.

Buying CM would be a waste of money though. They've spent two years making the game look better but not fixing the flaws

And it doesn't look much better either.

It's still a GUI nightmare.

FM07 had a mass of crazy keeper mistakes and own goals that drove me absolutely nuts. They're much rarer in 09.

I dont care which one is better, I just want a good game..

Will try both, SI game or SquareEnix game...

Without being rude, fair enough you have your views but we didn't need such a long self-centered post telling us why you are buying CM this year.

We get it, FM is too realistic for you, I personally much prefer realism and that's why I've got bored of any other management game I've played.

Goodbye, you won't be missed.

And the point to your post is??? Also the need for you to say 'you won't be missed' is????

I am expressing my feelings on the game which i am more than allowed to, if you don't like that then don't read it and certainly don't post. I didn't ask you to did I?

Without being rude, fair enough you have your views but we didn't need such a long self-centered post telling us why you are buying CM this year.

We get it, FM is too realistic for you, I personally much prefer realism and that's why I've got bored of any other management game I've played.

Goodbye, you won't be missed.

Is there any need for that?

The guy has point his points across in a constructive manner, he hasn't been rude or abusive but yet you still come in and be rude.

Fwiw, I enjoyed reading your OP (I disagree with you buying CM but again it's entirely your choice and we can't argue with that) and the debate it brought with it. Wp.

I can 100% agree with this Some saves I can be a very lazy player and have not tweeked the formation from the start of the season etc, I have won cups and league's doing this, you just need the right tactic to start with

same i rarely change any tactic i like my 4-4-2

Hmmmm......been playing the CM demo for a few days now.

Hmmmm..........can I say it?

Yes I have to, it is terrible. My god it is awful, like someone seeing frankensteins monster for the first time! uuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

How on earth can BGS be so far behind in almost every aspect. I am an open critic of the last two releases of FM and as a result I am still playing FM07 but I would play FM08/09 any day over CM 2010, which is just........well, words fail me.

Incorrect player data, terrible match engine, poor layout, slow gameplay .........I could go on. They say the are going to fix all this in 4 weeks, I'm sorry but if you can't produce better than this in 2 years then you are not going to solve anything in 4 weeks.

Please have me back SI, your game is by far the superior, I beg forgiveness!!

Thank god I didn't waste any money on CM, I would even think twice before paying the penny they are advertising it for, it might take up valuable memory on my PC!

I think I will now purchase FM2010 hoping it is polished, after all that is a good idea rather than creating wave after wave of new ideas which will have inevitably created more bugs. Think I may wait until the first patch is out though....

Keep up the good work SI!

So you didn't do your research

don't wish to stick up for CM..... but.....

the incorrect data may have something to do with the transfers going up to July 1st on the demo. The demo is also a beta demo and not a gold one. And if want to start talking about quality of demos, would you care to remember the FM Beta demo for FM4? Words failed me back then as well, but look how well FM has turned out.

As for saying CM only have 4 weeks to fix it, this is also incorrect, as the BETA demo goes back to July, and a lot of the bugs have apparently been remedied already.

Ahem, as you were.

So you didn't do your research

No silly me, I failed to get insider information as to how the demo would play as everyone else obviously did.

Still I could have used my mind reading skills to find out exactly what the demo would play like, I guess the fact that I didn't do that was just lazy!

Unless by 'research' you meant all the whispering on forums, gossiping without knowing facts and blatent lies about what people 'knew' about the game before the demo was released.

Meh, why do I bother.

don't wish to stick up for CM..... but.....

the incorrect data may have something to do with the transfers going up to July 1st on the demo. The demo is also a beta demo and not a gold one. And if want to start talking about quality of demos, would you care to remember the FM Beta demo for FM4? Words failed me back then as well, but look how well FM has turned out.

As for saying CM only have 4 weeks to fix it, this is also incorrect, as the BETA demo goes back to July, and a lot of the bugs have apparently been remedied already.

Ahem, as you were.

By incorrect data I meant if you look at some of the attributes for big name players they are absolutely ridiculous. I even posted on their site asking why this was, I was told it is a work in progress. I was then even told to contribute to what I felt the attributes should be! If they can't get the basics right......

I realise it is a beta demo as Roy Meredith said that. However, beta or not, you can't make a silk purse from a pigs ear, some of the ME simulation is absurd to say the least, not even a patch on FM 06 never mind 07/08/09. With regards the 4 weeks, I quote Meredith again :

-

"The demo is not a 'gold' or RTM ('release to manufacture') demo - its a beta demo, which means that it was finished 4 weeks ahead of our final RTM code."

I interpret this as the beta was released and the RTM is released 4 weeks later??

I seriously doubt they would release something so buggy and have cleared the bugs up already. A buggy game only goes to put people off. I have been in contact with several BGS staff too and they never questioned the 4 week period, they simply said they are working on everything, they were actually quite helpful really!

So FM has come a long way since FM4 as you put it, it seems CM looks better but the actual game play is still questionable at best.

I hope FM 2010 is good.

By incorrect data I meant if you look at some of the attributes for big name players they are absolutely ridiculous. I even posted on their site asking why this was, I was told it is a work in progress. I was then even told to contribute to what I felt the attributes should be! If they can't get the basics right......

I realise it is a beta demo as Roy Meredith said that. However, beta or not, you can't make a silk purse from a pigs ear, some of the ME simulation is absurd to say the least, not even a patch on FM 06 never mind 07/08/09. With regards the 4 weeks, I quote Meredith again :

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"The demo is not a 'gold' or RTM ('release to manufacture') demo - its a beta demo, which means that it was finished 4 weeks ahead of our final RTM code."

I interpret this as the beta was released and the RTM is released 4 weeks later??

I seriously doubt they would release something so buggy and have cleared the bugs up already. A buggy game only goes to put people off. I have been in contact with several BGS staff too and they never questioned the 4 week period, they simply said they are working on everything, they were actually quite helpful really!

So FM has come a long way since FM4 as you put it, it seems CM looks better but the actual game play is still questionable at best.

I hope FM 2010 is good.

If we could merge the 2 together to get the best features of each, we would have an immense game. I read further up that you have been playing the CM demo? There are some good features that they now have. The training, inparticular, is in a world of its own. To be able to watch your strikers practising shooting against a keeper of your choice, and all in 3d, is fantastic, and a huge step forward. The ME does let the game down, and perhaps thats FM's strongest feature. The gameplay of FM doesn't appear to add THAT many ground breaking changes each year. Just the odd addition. CM this year is completely different, and no doubt, IS moving in the right direction. I base this on a lot of what you said in your first post. They have listenened to what fans have been wanting for years.

Of course CM is flawed in a lot of areas, but, it is a more exciting project IMHO, and one I wil personally, be following intently. Having said that, I will still be buying FM2010, because it is dependable. Like an old pair of slippers.