Booted up FM 2009 to Show How Much Better Than FM20 It Is

[rockpie]

It's not. 

FM20 is actually pretty great so far.

There are a few annoying bugs but nothing "game-breaking" that I've seen and the main things already seem to be under review.

As long as people keep reporting new bugs properly, they can be addressed.

I'm sure the dev team has a process in place and it's not a matter of just clicking their fingers to fix everything overnight.

You have to consider that an easy fix on one issue could actually create a bigger, even more annoying issue to arise.

So, trust the team. They've already provided so many satisfying hours of gameplay over the years.

Well done SI. Keep up the good work. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

EPIC trolling thread title. Bravo sir, bravo. 

I almost have a tear in my eye. 

[XaW]

[JamieTC13]

So it should be better your comparing something from 10 years ago tbf it should a 100 times better but it ain't

[rockpie]

26 minutes ago, jckc221013jamie said:

So it should be better your comparing something from 10 years ago tbf it should a 100 times better but it ain't

100 times better in 10 years means you're expecting a 10-fold improvement every year.

I'm not sure annually released games like FIFA, which brings in $800 million a year from in-game revenue alone (that's on top of the purchase price), are managing that with MUCH bigger teams and MUCH bigger budgets.

Even AAA games that are released years apart, like Grand Theft Auto or Red Dead Redemption from Rockstar for example, rarely come close to a 10-fold improvement unless it coincides with a next-gen console release or something. Even then, it's more dictated by the graphics capabilities of the new console than massive improvements in the core gameplay.

In August 2017, Miles tweeted to celebrate a million sales. Let's be generous and say that's doubled and they got 2 million sales last year, at full price (which won't be the case because many people pre-order or wait to get some kind of discount), that would net Sports Interactive $120 million. And unlike EA, it's their only title bringing in big money.

Not sure that level of expectation can ever be fulfilled.

[JamieTC13]

either way it should be a lot better than it is simple as that so and them other games do make major improvements unlike what SI do is all we get is animation update's and silly things like that 

I know that SI don't make as much money as EA sports and that but the graphics and match engine should be a lot better

Edited November 29, 2019 by jckc221013jamie

[Victor]

Nice one. Anyway, FM09 was IMHO the worst in the saga. 

[tyro]

I don't think SI can actually keep 100% of the revenue brought in. There's SEGA and possibly other players involved that get their cut.

 

[kevhamster]

16 minutes ago, jckc221013jamie said:

either way it should be a lot better than it is simple as that so and them other games do make major improvements unlike what SI do is all we get is animation update's and silly things like that 

I know that SI don't make as much money as EA sports and that but the graphics and match engine should be a lot better

The graphics are deliberately kept on the simpler side to make the game scaleable across all kinds of setups.

They're perfectly functional for the game.

[rockpie]

2 minutes ago, jckc221013jamie said:

either way it should be a lot better than it is simple as that so and them other games do make major improvements unlike what SI do is all we get is animation update's and silly things like that 

I know that SI don't make as much money as EA sports and that but the graphics and match engine should be a lot better

I get what you're saying, but I just think there has to be some awareness as well.

"... all we get is animation updates ..." is a bit flippant. The way they've overhauled training and mentoring, tactics and player roles, and this year with the career paths, etc. is all pretty big in terms of changing and improving how the game works. It might not be perfect, but no game ever is on release.

Seriously, just go look at the "Bugs" section of the forum for any game ever.

And anyway, this is a Football Management simulation game after all.

I totally agree that I would like the graphics and match engine to be better, but I'm also aware that they are not the main reason I enjoy the game.

As kev says:

4 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

They're perfectly functional for the game.

I would also like Sports Interactive to continue to offer me new features and new options when it comes to actually managing my team and players, interacting with my board and staff, etc.

You know, the Football Management simulation side of things.

So smaller improvements to the match engine and graphics each year is totally worth it if they are delivering on that side - which I generally think they are.

Again, not perfect, but no game is in the first month of release.

[JamieTC13]

12 minutes ago, rockpie said:

I get what you're saying, but I just think there has to be some awareness as well.

"... all we get is animation updates ..." is a bit flippant. The way they've overhauled training and mentoring, tactics and player roles, and this year with the career paths, etc. is all pretty big in terms of changing and improving how the game works. It might not be perfect, but no game ever is on release.

Seriously, just go look at the "Bugs" section of the forum for any game ever.

And anyway, this is a Football Management simulation game after all.

I totally agree that I would like the graphics and match engine to be better, but I'm also aware that they are not the main reason I enjoy the game.

As kev says:

I would also like Sports Interactive to continue to offer me new features and new options when it comes to actually managing my team and players, interacting with my board and staff, etc.

You know, the Football Management simulation side of things.

So smaller improvements to the match engine and graphics each year is totally worth it if they are delivering on that side - which I generally think they are.

Again, not perfect, but no game is in the first month of release.

Yeah i said that a bit wrong i think what they have done to the game is absolutely brilliant i was actually just on about the match engine and graphics apart from the ME the game is by far the best that their as been so i should of been clearer about that

It is just the player's look like they are ice skating, they stop dead before attempting to cross the ball their is no collision engine the keepers can't get sent off ect that is what i'm on about 

Edited November 29, 2019 by jckc221013jamie

[rockpie]

15 minutes ago, jckc221013jamie said:

It is just the player's look like they are ice skating, they stop dead before attempting to cross the ball their is no collision engine the keepers can't get sent off ect that is what i'm on about 

For sure there is plenty of room for improvement with animations.

Don't know for sure if goalkeepers actually can't get sent off or if it just happens super rarely. Maybe @herne79 knows if/why that's the case?

And a collision engine would be lovely, I agree. But at the same time, in a football management simulation game, I don't think it should be a huge priority.

Maybe we'll get there someday. 

[KlaaZ]

It's actually not true that there is no collision detection because there is. Unlike FM12 (which is for some reason said to be a better game in another thread) your players could just ghost through other players. But yeah, it is true that goalies don't make a lot of penalty mistakes and/or red card offenses. 

[srvngrc]

3 saat önce, rockpie said:

 

3 saat önce, jckc221013jamie said:

So it should be better your comparing something from 10 years ago tbf it should a 100 times better but it ain't

100 times better in 10 years means you're expecting a 10-fold improvement every year.

 

Looks like you’re not so good at math

Just joking  But the ME is really not good enough when you compare it a 10 year old version. It should be more and more developed but not. We’re still struggling with silly bugs in year 2019.

[Svenc]

There is no collision detection. E.g. Players able to "physically" collide against one another.

There is a collision avoidance. E.g. the Code recognizes if a Player is occupying a space, and Forces other players to run around his off the ball rather than straight through. It's been introduced by FM13. All Versions Prior, FM 09 included Players "ghosted" off the ball.

The latter is somewhat less complex. The former meanwhile would allow there to be aspects of physical defending to be better simulated.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Svenc

[Mitja]

Collision detecton never really bothered me much. I mean those dots should be much smaller right. And I'm watching players like Mbappe ghosting through players constantly.

[Marko1989]

I was thinking.. Maybe we should have sliders in FM so we can adjust match engine to our preference : For example, I would choose Long Shots from FM 2017, Inside Forwards From 2015, Strikers from FM 2011, Through Balls from FM 2012 and nothing from fm 2020

[Zanman777]

While I do understand where the OP is coming from, I think he's patting SI in the back a little bit too much.

There are dozens of features that should (some even NEED to) be fixed in the game. I'm sure many players in here who are paying at least a little bit of attention to the game can agree with me. If you can't think of any examples, ask me and I'll give you plenty. In the meantime, every year we get 2-3 new features that may be considered secondary when compared to the ones that need tweaking / improvement / debugging. And BAM. Full price again - shell out 55 euros again. 

The most flagrant example I can give you is this - every year, FM revamps its freaking UI. Every. Single. Year. New colours, the buttons switch places a little bit, some new icons here and there, some icons are taken away, whatever. But the features are the same. 
Let me ask you. Who the heck cares??? A freaking UI? You can change that with skins, for God's sake... THAT's one of SI's priorities??

 

Let's review the new features of Football Manager by year (these are the ones I could find out).

Foootball Manager 2006

• Xbox 360 version 
• Half Time and Full Time Team Talks 
• Unhappy Player Interaction 
• Easier Training (not sure what that meant)
• Referee Profiles (see how well the referee for your next match has performed recently) 
• Manager Contracts - Negotiate with the board to get the contract you want (really useful, since money you get is pointless in this game)
• Virtual player contracts - You can now sign virtual greyed out players for your team (yay, I guess...?)
• Snapshot Page - All of the information you need to know on one page (you mean a UI tweak?)
• New Match Commentary Lines
• Quick tactic mode (so a UI tweak)
• Revamped Physio Reports (physios come to you)
• Dream Team - You can now manage Dream Team's fictional team Harchester United, by editing a text file (very sophisticated)

 

Football Manager 2007

• Feeder & parent clubs (very poorly implemented even in Football 2018 at least. AI parent clubs never lend you any players, even though you have to beg the boardroom to find a parent club for your team if you still don't have one) 
• Youth Revamp (full youth squads for each team that has a youth set-up)
• Scouting Revamp (more information about players and teams available to managers; scouts grow and improve their knowledge-base of the world’s football players)
• Player Interaction - You can now talk to any player in the world via the media
• Team Talks got improved

Football Manager 2008

• Match Flow (new screens before matches such as match previews, team talks, oppoostion player instructions, team talks at the start, halftime and fulltime. So a UI tweak)
• International Management got revamped
• Confidence (see what the board and fans think about everything you do - games, signings, competition performances)
• Transfer Centre (Manage all of your transfers from one screen. So... a UI reorganisation?)
• Fan days (never really felt these do anything meaningful, but hey...)
• Regens (new generated faces)

Football Manager 2009

• 3D Pitch Mode (Yes!!) 
• Female Manager (scratches head) -  no female AI managers regenerated into the game though (scratches head again)
• Press Conferences - you can choose what to write for an answer, however, this has no real effect on the press conference itself
• Preferred Moves (Yes again!!)
• Trial Days 
• Match postponements - ( eg the pitch is waterlogged, your pitch is so bad it's unplayable...)
• Relaying of pitches
• Retired Squad Numbers
• Inactive Team Improved - If you do not select a league any player in that league will now play the full season and the number of games will be correct in their history instead of playing 10-15 games (so a fix, not a new feature)
• Player Nationality Laws  Improved (you mean "fixed", right?)
• Assistant Loan Search (ask your assistant manager to search for potential new loan signings)
• Pundits comment on the referee's performance after reach game
• Pre Game injury history - Players injury history from real life is in the game where possible, ie major injuries
• New Sound Effects (wow)
• Ability to reject all loan offers - You can now reject all loans offers from different clubs for one player instead of rejecting them individually (so... a UI... improvement...?)
• Distance tracker - shows how much your player's have run and how hard are they working. (In kilometers or miles)
• Improved team reports - Your assistant manager will prepare detailed team reports and will highlight the weakness in the squad and suggest player's you may buy to strengthen (THIS. THIS is the kind of stuff Football Manager needs!!!!)
• Changes in overall history of team Awards
• More options while going on holidays regarding job applications ( Top half, bottom half clubs etc...)
• Player Ratings - players playing for less than 10 minutes on coming on as substitutes DO NOT get rated so that their average ratings do not go down.
• Feeder Clubs (ask the board for a specific feeder/parent club) (again, it is still very poorly implemented even in Football 2018 at least. But SI is more concerned about your ability to choose which useless parent club you're going to get)
• Ability to Loan players will be improved - Specific details can be sent to clubs asking them to loan players (which AI clubs ALWAYS refuse. Useful feature is useful.)
• Stadium Expansion

 

Football Manager 2010

• New Tactics Creator
• Touchline shouts (so these have been useless since 2009? Wow...)
• Player roles 
• Match Analysis tool
• A brand new User Interface (I literally copy-pasted this from here, not even joking)
• 3D match engine improvements with + >100 animations, stadiums and pitch degradation, blabla I fell asleep...
• New data editor allows the addition of new divisions to existing leagues and of entirely new leagues as well as making it easier than ever to keep the game up to date, and do so for free
• News Centre

Football Manager 2011

• Realtime contract negotiations with players (good addition)
• New “match preparation” area of training
• More basic training schedules for players; 14 different individual skill areas that you can focus your players on
• 3D match engine improvements with + >100 animations, stadiums oh God here we go again...
• Dynamic league reputation, "the most requested feature that the Sports Interactive community have asked for in the last few years", according to SI

Football Manager 2012

• Add / remove playable nations in your saved game (good addition)
• Ability to lock areas of the contract negotiation when you aren't prepared to budge
• 3D match engine improvements, who would have though?
• Intelligent Interface - A new adaptive layout system (is that about the UI?)
• Voice tone (so tone has been useless / broken since 2011, huh?)
• Brand New Tutorial (7 years after the first FM they come up with a new tutorial)

 

Football Manager 2013

• The 3D match engine got imppppprrrrrrrrrrooooooooooooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeed
• Director of Football
• New specialist coaching roles
• Classic Mode
• Challenge Modes
• New Network Play (Football Manager needs more multiplayer capabilites!)

 

Football Manager 2014

• 3D mzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
• Linux (big judos for this one)
• ‘Cloud-save’ technology
• Enhanced user interface (ermahgerd)
• Tactical overhaul  - "here has been a complete redesign of how tactics are created, selected and implemented with player roles and team strategies becoming even more prominent, definable roles for players for multiple positions, new player roles and instructions and improvements to rival managers' AI so that they’ll adapt their tactics more readily over time"
• Managers and boards can now make demands and lay down their respective visions for the club; managers can also attempt to renegotiate transfer and wage budgets as a reward for staying loyal if they’ve been offered a job by another club

 

Football Manager 2015

• I'm gonna omit one groundbreaking improvement. Make an educated guess.
• New user interface (ok, I should have ommited this one too...)
• Scouting Centre (nice addition)
• Honestly the rest is just "improved this", "improved that...". See for yourself

 

Football Manager 2016

• Create a manager sim character 
• Create a club
• Fantasy draft
• Partnership witrh Prozone for stat analysis (hmmm... Honest question: what was the difference?)
• The rest is just "improvements"

 

Football Manager 2017

• Facegen technology (even better sims...? This is what's important?)
• New staff roles - Data analysts and sports scientists
• "Improvements". Vague improvements.

 

Football Manager 2018

• Dynamics (great addition, I believe)
• New Medical Centre (kind of looked like a mere UI reorganisation to me...)
• The rest is rewording for improvements. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I think it might be obivous by now that SI is running out of ideas by now... But if you're still unsure, compare the "features" section of Football Manager 2006 (the second installment) and Football Manager 2018. FM 2019 and 2020 don't even show up on the site. 

That would be OK... if SI actually addressed the broken stuff. Which they don't.

• Unhappy player interaction and praising / criticizing players: still feels like babysitting. Honestly, players sulking because you complimented them and they don't agree that they deserve the compliment? What are you thinking, SI? Who acts like that???
• The money you get from your wage: calculating usefulness... 0%. We can negotiate our own contracts since 2005 for what... for the lulz?
• Feeder clubs: they never lend the player club any players, and refusing all loan requests. Implemented in 2006, broken for 13 years now, that bug can almost drink beer by now.
• Touchline shouts: implemented in 2009. You can press them all at once for all the match engine cares...
• Voice tone: implemented in 2011, it remains a mistery to the universe whether it does very close to nothing or actually nothing.
• I'm not even going to address the bucket load of unclear features, which SI has had more than a decade to become clearer. 

 

And sorry but I'm going to have to touch the wound here. SI has had the 3D match engine for 11 years, why does it still look like a 1998 game? I'm not asking for FIFA / PES 2020 level graphics, but come on, get real... It could be ridiculously better than it is....

Edited November 29, 2019 by Zanman777

[git2thachoppa]

It's been a decade and a half of FM and even more of CM, have people still not realised the beta phase ends in February when we get the real game? This is the buggy part of release. What's the big surprise?

Personally I think FM 2007 is yards better than FM 2014 though.

[..Valhalla..]

Great post @Zanman777, a lot of effort put in to create it. 

I fully agree, there are far too many 'features' that exist for the sake of it (tone of voice, touchline shouts etc). SI make a new game every year, with a ton of bugs, a plethora of features that have literally never worked, and by the time the game is finished (after January transfer window update), the next game is well under way and so the cycle continues... 

[git2thachoppa]

With the new additions, I think it's a question of does FM try to be a new FM, or a new football manager simulator?

With each year the game is less and less 'realistic'. If it was real 10 years ago, it would involve mostly watching loads of random games and sitting at your desk being bored or watching training sessions. Today it'd be similar, but remove watching games and add getting sacked at any time for any reason, including 'doing too well'. None of these design choices would go down well though!

So while it's 'realistic' to have all these little instructions etc. I feel the main question should be 'is it fun?'. We can't pretend the game's priority is ultra realism any more.

Personally I don't find fun in the newer tactical stuff and micromanagement.

Edited November 29, 2019 by git2thachoppa

[Altair89]

ME is almost the same since 2009. Actually 12,15 and 17 have better ME than 20.

[Zanman777]

18 minutes ago, Altair89 said:

ME is almost the same since 2009. Actually 12,15 and 17 have better ME than 20.

Based on what do you say such a thing?

[Sanel]

It's always the same people who think differently about the game and want to deny obvious facts. I remember back in 2014 posting a bug about too many goals against from corners which later has been patched. Bug wasn't acknowledged by @Dagenham_Dave, 5 years later he's still doing the same thing. 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/330188-official-football-manager-2015-feedback-thread-1513/page/30/?tab=comments#comment-10043092

https://community.sigames.com/topic/330188-official-football-manager-2015-feedback-thread-1513/?do=findComment&comment=10041996 or this one, he's playing a different game again. Even same arguments. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sanel

[Dagenham_Dave]

This one's triggered so badly, he's finding posts from me from SIX years ago!! 

 

[..Valhalla..]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

This one's triggered so badly, he's finding posts from me from SIX years ago!! 

 

2014 was 5 years ago to be fair. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, ..Valhalla.. said:

2014 was 5 years ago to be fair. 

I just assumed he was talking about FM14 rather than the actual year. Oh well. 

Anyhow, here's another scoreline for you in the 'Bug reports raised in FM20 league'. Result just in. 

Dagenham Dave 7-1 Sanel

Unlucky. 

[Sanel]

45 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

This one's triggered so badly, he's finding posts from me from SIX years ago!! 

I remember you because you're the first one to claim that an issue isn't true and in your case is different. This is also why I've tried to stay away from the feedback topic general. Also whenever I post I want it to be useful, not 5656 posts full of meaningless or misinformation. Posting comments like these just proves my point.  but please, keep going, I love reading it. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sanel

[isignedupfornorealreason]

3 hours ago, Zanman777 said:

Dynamic league reputation, "the most requested feature that the Sports Interactive community have asked for in the last few years", according to SI

While I do agree that they need to trim the fat and focus on better updates, I just want to say that this particular thing; the "Dynamic League Rep" was one of the highest requested features back in the day, it was always considered odd that team reputation was dynamic but the leagues remained static. It had a massive knock on effect if you tried any of the small club - small country challenges and stuff like that, which was all the rage back in the day.

 

(Am assuming I'm not misremembering though.)

[baris28]

 'having fun' for me tough career game and maybe more limited tactical match decisions that AI can cope with.

I think this is difficult from now; it is too late. 

More 'toys' always better for larger community that most developers do less work on AI.

 

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, Zanman777 said:

 

• Touchline shouts: implemented in 2009. You can press them all at once for all the match engine cares...

Like some stuff in your post, but on this one: Git gud. (To be fair, I was actually concerned by this, in particular considering that the game's AI (management) does engage in much more, including dynamic tactical match Management, and still isn't nowhere near.)
 

2 hours ago, Sanel said:

It's always the same people who think differently about the game and want to deny obvious facts. I remember back in 2014 posting a bug about too many goals against from corners which later has been patched. Bug wasn't acknowledged by @Dagenham_Dave, 5 years later he's still doing the same thing. 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/330188-official-football-manager-2015-feedback-thread-1513/page/30/?tab=comments#comment-10043092

https://community.sigames.com/topic/330188-official-football-manager-2015-feedback-thread-1513/?do=findComment&comment=10041996 or this one, he's playing a different game again. Even same arguments. 

To be fair, the hockey scorelines on FM 15 are a PERFECT example of how only certain tactical combinations triggered them. Basically, given advanced Players an attack Duty meant they couldN't be ar*ed to track back and defend. Some Players never used the top heavy formations, and even therein they may not have utilized a couple attack duties. Was Pretty rad tho. No less as everybody seemed to Attribute that to the keepers being useless, when it was simple sides being overrun on both Ends of the pitch.


PS: FM 20009 was a cheat. :P 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Svenc

[Bothan Spy]

FM09 was a dog turd of a game. An annus horribilis. If I remember correctly it was the first year football manager went with steam registering and it caused all sorts of problems. The ME was appalling. Strikers went hours without scoring. 

I think it was the time I thought my love affair with FM was over. Luckily we got over it...

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, Bothan Spy said:

FM09 was a dog turd of a game. An annus horribilis. If I remember correctly it was the first year football manager went with steam registering and it caused all sorts of problems. The ME was appalling. Strikers went hours without scoring. 

Sounds legit (Ibra et all had those too. Scoring streaks of varying degrees are part and parcel of football).

edit: The following was actually 2010. Maybe we got them both confused. Don't remember anything of that sort with 2009. To be more honest though, some Players had this more, some less. There was a bug with the centre backs Opening channels in between them for easy through balls. That wasn't picked up as severe on testing, as only the "exploit tactics" later would Focus on them 24/7 as opposed to creating more varied Play and chances.  The resulting one on ones were somewhat to hard to convert, e.g. the main coder had acknowledged an issue with the keeper reach there. Eventually the Thing was sorted though IIRC. Both the frequency due to the bad Defender positioning, as well as the conversion.
 

Actually sounds a bit like the current "one on one" issue from tighter angles. They also come About too ofently due to a defending issue. And whilst they also aren't that easy a Chance a lot of the time (and the guy approaching the Goal from out wide should lay it off for a cut back/ tap-in Scenario when it's on more oftenly), their conversion may also be a tad too inconsistent. (I am personally still doing some Research, as I would expect most of them to be converted longer term at roughly 20% rates at best, no less as the fwd is also typically still being chased and closed down).

Edited November 30, 2019 by Svenc

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Bothan Spy said:

FM09 was a dog turd of a game. An annus horribilis. If I remember correctly it was the first year football manager went with steam registering and it caused all sorts of problems. The ME was appalling. Strikers went hours without scoring. 

I think it was the time I thought my love affair with FM was over. Luckily we got over it...

The period between FM09-FM12 was the worst stretch in the series history for me, and I didn't properly re-connect with the series again until FM13, and have fully back on board ever since. I can't remember a single career save in any of these games. From FM13 onwards, there has been at least one save in every edition that I look back at fondly. 

FM13 - Bradford (Gladbach in FMC)

FM14 - Droylsden (Hibs in FMC)

FM15 - Hereford (my greatest ever FM save)

FM16 - Hacken

FM17 - Salford (Fortuna Sittard in FMC)

FM18 - York

FM19 - Sampdoria/Wolves

Edited November 30, 2019 by Dagenham_Dave