Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation

[yonko]

7 hours ago, Mitja said:

in terms of player movement and transition and if we agree Mourinho is on Cautious mentality then Pep cannot be on Cautious, these are two different worlds. but there's no such thing as mentality in football anyway, it's all about player roles, tempo, movement and transitions. City plays probably fastest transition currently just like Dortmund but with much higher d-line of course. once the ball is in final third against packed defense ball movement is very quick but patient.  

Mentality in FM is risk. Pep's teams are proactive and dominant but they do not take many risks in possession, especially in big games. He rather keep the ball than loose it. That's why you see a lot of passes between his back line even in opposition's half. They are patiently waiting for the opponent to get drawn to the ball and then they take advantage of the spaces vacated. They force the "domino effect" so to speak but do not rush it. Sometimes it looks boring when the opposition is stubborn and/or disciplined in their set up. However, the team stays with the plan and keeps shifting the ball side to side until the opening comes at some point.

2 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

This is how I would set up Man city from last season.

 

First choice team was:

Sane Aguero Sterling

D.Silva Fernandinho De Bruyne

Delph Stones Otamendi Walker

Ederson

De Bruyne is the hardest role to recreate and ideally I wouldn't use a playmaker for him because he isn't necessarily more of a focal point than silva. However, since Silva has dictate tempo trait, I believe they will see a similar amount of passes. The other option is to use De bruyne as a CM(s) and use a lot of PI's. As an RPM I've just used move into channels. 

The wide players are also a bit hard to recreate because they do attack space but if you give them attack duties they're likely going to be too isolated which won't suit the style of play so I think support duties are the best bet. Sane is a winger because he he has Delph as an IWB behind him. While Sterling is an IF because he was like a hybrid between a winger/IF. The idea is that since he's right footed, using him as an IF will reproduce that behaviour. He has PI stay wide (as that's what he did in the build up) while Walker behind him has PI stay narrower (as that's how he played in the build up). He would underlap at times and overlap at others so using the PI stay narrow should allow to underlap while his traits "get forward whenever possible" and "knock ball past opponent" should see him overlap at other times. 

The front 3 all mark tighter and tackle harder for the high block. Aguero is a false 9 allowing him to drop deep in the build up then come into the box late unmarked to score from cutbacks.

The interesting TI I think is "hold shape" in transition. This is because in most games, City don't look to break at pace but rather everyone holds position when they win the ball and that allows them to work the ball up the pitch and into the final third with short passes. It's used in conjuction with counter press TI because Guardiola want to press instantly in order to force a long ball and win back possession straight away.

This season, it's a lot different. Mendy is fit and plays as a wingback on attack. This has seen Sane spend a lot of time on the bench as since he likes to provide width on the left, he doesn't leave space for Mendy to go wide. De Bruyne is injured which means Bernado has mainly been starting in his place. I haven't seen enough though to be confident in recreating them this season...it looks like they've played a 4231 in a few games aswell. 

Wingers in FM cross too much I think. So I do not like it. I would use IF role with stay wider even for Sane.

And I don't like any of the ST roles in FM. They don't play like a ST would in Pep's team.

Actually at City is where Pep allows his team to break with the most pace I have ever seen in his tactics.

[NabsKebabs]

7 minutes ago, yonko said:

Wingers in FM cross too much I think. So I do not like it. I would use IF role with stay wider even for Sane.

In Fm18 they did yeah but them seem to have fixed the issue of too many dribbles being completed. I think this was the root cause of the issue in fm18...too much dribbling would mean the wingers would be out wide with no support and the only option was to put in a cross so I think it's fine to have one winger and one IF.

7 minutes ago, yonko said:

And I don't like any of the ST roles in FM. They don't play like a ST would in Pep's team.

The false 9 is still the closest imo, with Kun's ppm comes deep to to get ball I think it works ok.

 

7 minutes ago, yonko said:

Actually at City is where Pep allows his team to break with the most pace I have ever seen in his tactics.

I agree with that but it really just depends on the opposition and how they are playing. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[themadsheep2001]

4 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

This is how I would set up Man city from last season.

 

First choice team was:

Sane Aguero Sterling

D.Silva Fernandinho De Bruyne

Delph Stones Otamendi Walker

Ederson

De Bruyne is the hardest role to recreate and ideally I wouldn't use a playmaker for him because he isn't necessarily more of a focal point than silva. However, since Silva has dictate tempo trait, I believe they will see a similar amount of passes. The other option is to use De bruyne as a CM(s) and use a lot of PI's. As an RPM I've just used move into channels. 

The wide players are also a bit hard to recreate because they do attack space but if you give them attack duties they're likely going to be too isolated which won't suit the style of play so I think support duties are the best bet. Sane is a winger because he he has Delph as an IWB behind him. While Sterling is an IF because he was like a hybrid between a winger/IF. The idea is that since he's right footed, using him as an IF will reproduce that behaviour. He has PI stay wide (as that's what he did in the build up) while Walker behind him has PI stay narrower (as that's how he played in the build up). He would underlap at times and overlap at others so using the PI stay narrow should allow to underlap while his traits "get forward whenever possible" and "knock ball past opponent" should see him overlap at other times. 

The front 3 all mark tighter and tackle harder for the high block. Aguero is a false 9 allowing him to drop deep in the build up then come into the box late unmarked to score from cutbacks.

The interesting TI I think is "hold shape" in transition. This is because in most games, City don't look to break at pace but rather everyone holds position when they win the ball and that allows them to work the ball up the pitch and into the final third with short passes. It's used in conjuction with counter press TI because Guardiola want to press instantly in order to force a long ball and win back possession straight away.

This season, it's a lot different. Mendy is fit and plays as a wingback on attack. This has seen Sane spend a lot of time on the bench as since he likes to provide width on the left, he doesn't leave space for Mendy to go wide. De Bruyne is injured which means Bernado has mainly been starting in his place. I haven't seen enough though to be confident in recreating them this season...it looks like they've played a 4231 in a few games aswell. 

Almost identical to what I have, except swapped around because of the return of Mendy. I'm still not quite happy with the DM role, because atm he's not maintaining his depth quite enough, been using a DM defend.

And the other option is a toss between AML/R and ML/R, with stay wider on both wide positions (already active when choosing winger support)

 

[NabsKebabs]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Almost identical to what I have, except swapped around because of the return of Mendy. I'm still not quite happy with the DM role, because atm he's not maintaining his depth quite enough, been using a DM defend.

And the other option is a toss between AML/R and ML/R, with stay wider on both wide positions (already active when choosing winger support)

 

I can understand why people put the wide men in the midfield strata, however it doesn't make sense for me. If you're playing a high press, you're ideally gonna need a formation with players in advanced positions. 

[NabsKebabs]

And regarding Mendy...I think I would try a 352 to get the best out of him...Pep has used the 352 on numerous occasions (more so last season but atleast once this season) to give him the left flank to him self. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

I can understand why people put the wide men in the midfield strata, however it doesn't make sense for me. If you're playing a high press, you're ideally gonna need a formation with players in advanced positions. 

You can definitely get that high press with a 4-1-4-1. Aside from this, it's a formation that really winning me over again. 

And yeah you could build a 3-4-2-1/3-5-2 as an alternative formation. 

[Gegenklaus]

23 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

You can definitely get that high press with a 4-1-4-1. Aside from this, it's a formation that really winning me over again. 

And yeah you could build a 3-4-2-1/3-5-2 as an alternative formation. 

I have the same experience with the 4-1-4-1. You can press high with it, but what I like the most, is the wingers are a lot wider even in the final third - I’ve said it numerous times - but I really like the roles and movement of the Inverted Winger and Wide Midfielder. It also means you can make Sterling into the sort of space investigator with the wide midfielder role. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Gegenklaus

[NabsKebabs]

Not saying you can't press high with a 4141 guys...just feel it's more effective in a 433. 

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

Not saying you can't press high with a 4141 guys...just feel it's more effective in a 433. 

Yeah, wasn’t an attack or anything. How is it more effective, do you think? The wingers gets closer to the opponents backline sooner or?

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

Yeah, wasn’t an attack or anything. How is it more effective, do you think? The wingers gets closer to the opponents backline sooner or?

Naturally in a deeper formation, you're players will be more inclined to drop back. While the high press settings will negate this to some extent, having them naturally higher up the pitch I feel is more effective. But yeah can certainly still work with the deeper version of the 4141...I just don't think Man City defend with that formation. 

[Gegenklaus]

22 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Naturally in a deeper formation, you're players will be more inclined to drop back. While the high press settings will negate this to some extent, having them naturally higher up the pitch I feel is more effective. But yeah can certainly still work with the deeper version of the 4141...I just don't think Man City defend with that formation. 

Against United their defensive shape looked a lot like a 4-1-4-1 numerous times. But we shouldnt get too hung-up on that. I just like the midfield winger roles, as it replicates the wide play better in my opinion and you can give one of them an attack duty while he will still track back more than in the AM-strata. 

Both ways work fine and everything is relative when it comes to FM.

[NabsKebabs]

6 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Against United their defensive shape looked a lot like a 4-1-4-1 numerous times. But we shouldnt get too hung-up on that. I just like the midfield winger roles, as it replicates the wide play better in my opinion and you can give one of them an attack duty while he will still track back more than in the AM-strata. 

Both ways work fine and everything is relative when it comes to FM.

a 433 with support duties will also look like a deeper 4141 at times...at the end of the day I'd say there's not a heap of difference...there's many ways to skin the cat in FM. By the sounds of it, we're both happy with our own takes on it so that's all that matters.

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

a 433 with support duties will also look like a deeper 4141 at times...at the end of the day I'd say there's not a heap of difference...there's many ways to skin the cat in FM. By the sounds of it, we're both happy with our own takes on it so that's all that matters.

Exactly. 

How do you find the RPM working in terms of movement? I really like your setup. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, NabsKebabs said:

Naturally in a deeper formation, you're players will be more inclined to drop back. While the high press settings will negate this to some extent, having them naturally higher up the pitch I feel is more effective. But yeah can certainly still work with the deeper version of the 4141...I just don't think Man City defend with that formation. 

For my one, I'm working off their game against united, which is how they defended. But as you point out its not always the case. City don't really play a "formation" as such. Only the concept of what they do is the same. Outside of that formations, and roles can and will vary as needed. 

[NabsKebabs]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

Exactly. 

How do you find the RPM working in terms of movement? I really like your setup. 

movement is very good...the thing I don't like is the playmaker magnet behaviour makes the team play through too much to the RPM and the the mezzala doesn't see enough of the ball in comparison.

So i'd say CM(s) is probably the closest we can get. I'd use a whole bunch of PI's to get the role to play like De bruyne though:

close down more ( I'm using more urgent TI, not extremely urgent as I don't want defenders to have max pressing)

move into channels,

take more risks, 

roam from position,

shoot more often (i never use this but with De Bruyne who has 16 long shots and 17 decisions I would give it a try).

Edited November 13, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[NabsKebabs]

4 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

“Don’t mark a player, cover the space between two players.”

– Pep Guardiola

there is no option to block passing lanes as a pressing style in the game...so our best bet when playing the high block in FM is to man mark in order to force the turn over of possession. 

[Mitja]

On 12/11/2018 at 03:48, kpsia518 said:

I mean due to ME issue,so WE only can do 50~60%.

i didn't mean,you are poor or somebody is poor,or some thing like this...PLZ don't miss understanding

 

because we can't make "positional play" happen in this ME.
without "positional play",that means its not pep style.
so that is what i means "we only can 50-60%"...

i think it's really hard to talk about % when you have things like off the ball movement (like opening or running towards the ball) and basic defending rules not working properly let alone more complicated stuff like positional play or different pressing styles. 5 or 6 years ago, heck even 2 i would have thought we will be able to replicate different styles of football. progress of ME is minimal and cosmetic, personally i find it downgrade to fm17, half of instrcutions don't even do what they say. 

[andymankc]

I think that member of this forum called ozil to Arsenal gave the most realistic verision of Pep tactic in his Benfica story. Formation 4-1-4-1 for me is one of Pep's tactics.

[yonko]

15 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

In Fm18 they did yeah but them seem to have fixed the issue of too many dribbles being completed. I think this was the root cause of the issue in fm18...too much dribbling would mean the wingers would be out wide with no support and the only option was to put in a cross so I think it's fine to have one winger and one IF.

The false 9 is still the closest imo, with Kun's ppm comes deep to to get ball I think it works ok.

 

I agree with that but it really just depends on the opposition and how they are playing. 

I still don't like the wingers in Fm19.

Any ST with comes deep will drop but it doesn't drop enough IMO. The position (and some of the roles) is not coded to. There must be reasons for that, like some limitation or whatnot. I don't know. The most frustrating thing for me is how most of the ST roles now move into channels. They added it as hard coded instruction to the CF-S and DLF-S roles. The F9 already had it which I was hoping to change this year. It didn't.

If they see space, City are breaking like a race horse, especially if KDB is playing. That is the only variable.

[kpsia518]

13 hours ago, Mitja said:

i think it's really hard to talk about % when you have things like off the ball movement (like opening or running towards the ball) and basic defending rules not working properly let alone more complicated stuff like positional play or different pressing styles. 5 or 6 years ago, heck even 2 i would have thought we will be able to replicate different styles of football. progress of ME is minimal and cosmetic, personally i find it downgrade to fm17, half of instrcutions don't even do what they say. 

positioning is the key for positional play.Looks like player move too much in FM19.
& player retreat too much when i don't what they do it.

"Stick to positions" been remove in FM19.
So it take more time to control player movement.

[kpsia518]

17 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

there is no option to block passing lanes as a pressing style in the game...so our best bet when playing the high block in FM is to man mark in order to force the turn over of possession. 

1st,we much do some thing like this ,triangles.
positioning is the key,attacking & defending.
your defend is start when your attack.
 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by kpsia518

[el tren]

Am 12.11.2018 um 19:14 schrieb cocoadavid:

I use the RM/LM slots because I don't like the movement of the AMR/L in the current match engine when the ball is already in the final third.

This is actually my main issue when trying to recreate Guardiolas tactics. Since his final season at Bayern, Guardiola likes to use natural wingers (i.e. left footed winger on left side and vice versa) in very wide positions during all phases, so that they are either almost always free enough to be an outlet for a pass or stretch the defensive line (if opponents fullbacks come to mark them), thus creating space for central players and inverted wingbacks that can do underlapping runs. Also with the added protection from counter attacks by the narrow positioned wingbacks. He strayed a bit from that recently by sometimes using Mendy as natural wingback with Sterling as inverted left forward. But this is about the general tactic to have attacking wingers position themselves very wide.

So much for the reality. In FM however, the AML/R position themselves simply way too narrow as baseline IN THE FINAL THIRD. They are indeed hugging the touchline while the ball is in the midfield, i.e. in the 2nd third. But as soon as my team moving into the final third, they run deep into the oppositions box, no matter what is going on in the game. It would actually be fine if they move into the box when the ball is on the other flank for example (and the oppositions defensive line moves towards that side too), but they are always there, esp. in a very neutral phase of the game that you can see this in this pic:

 

Unfortunately, there is apparently nothing you can do about it. I set the width to 'very wide' and tell them to 'stay wider' (in individual setup) and feel like to set everything in a way to allow or direct that kind of play. And tried a lot from fiddling around with 'focus play' to 'tempo' and 'work ball into box' (see the pic). But to no avail.

To me it seems that the game engine is just hard coded to position the AML/R into the box, maybe b/c the developers thought the outside space in that phase is for attacking fullbacks. You can ofc use them to occupy this space and it is how most teams actually operate IRL. But you can't setup the wingers like Guardiola does. And this is the issue here. If you wanna setup the wingplay like he does in the past 3-4 years, the game engine simply stops you. Which i find is annoying. Its nothing new though, as it was the same before already, but dribbling/tackling was a lot different and far more advantageous for the offensive winger, so he could still pull sth off when they get the ball deep in the box close to a defender, making good use of high dribbling and technical skills.

You see the latter issue and the consequences from the limited wingplay from my 1st pic and esp. the stats on the left:

- 100% Tackling rates for both teams is pretty much ridiculous. Its only after 33 Min, but the numbers still usually don't drop below 90%. Its not only far from realistic, its also no fun to watch such matches and not really tempting to deploy any kind of offensive tactic.

- Due to the limited offensive options caused by the horrible wingers positions, my players often switch to long shots. 7 out of 13 shots were long in this game so far. And i even set my players up to refrain from long shots!

- Also my ratings are terrible, b/c not only do i rarely score, i also rarely get key passes off. Even worse, despite totally dominating my opponent, my players ratings are lower than his! How can that be?

- Finally, i get my results mostly from set pieces. The good thing is that i get a lot of corners with my tactic (7 already in 33 Min here), and sooner or later, i score from one. And as soon as i get ahead and the opponent opens up, i might score another goal form a counter attack. But scoring from high possession play? Forget it ...

[Gegenklaus]

13 minutes ago, el tren said:

This is actually my main issue when trying to recreate Guardiolas tactics. Since his final season at Bayern, Guardiola likes to use natural wingers (i.e. left footed winger on left side and vice versa) in very wide positions during all phases, so that they are either almost always free enough to be an outlet for a pass or stretch the defensive line (if opponents fullbacks come to mark them), thus creating space for central players and inverted wingbacks that can do underlapping runs. Also with the added protection from counter attacks by the narrow positioned wingbacks. He strayed a bit from that recently by sometimes using Mendy as natural wingback with Sterling as inverted left forward. But this is about the general tactic to have attacking wingers position themselves very wide.

So much for the reality. In FM however, the AML/R position themselves simply way too narrow as baseline IN THE FINAL THIRD. They are indeed hugging the touchline while the ball is in the midfield, i.e. in the 2nd third. But as soon as my team moving into the final third, they run deep into the oppositions box, no matter what is going on in the game. It would actually be fine if they move into the box when the ball is on the other flank for example (and the oppositions defensive line moves towards that side too), but they are always there, esp. in a very neutral phase of the game that you can see this in this pic:

 

Unfortunately, there is apparently nothing you can do about it. I set the width to 'very wide' and tell them to 'stay wider' (in individual setup) and feel like to set everything in a way to allow or direct that kind of play. And tried a lot from fiddling around with 'focus play' to 'tempo' and 'work ball into box' (see the pic). But to no avail.

To me it seems that the game engine is just hard coded to position the AML/R into the box, maybe b/c the developers thought the outside space in that phase is for attacking fullbacks. You can ofc use them to occupy this space and it is how most teams actually operate IRL. But you can't setup the wingers like Guardiola does. And this is the issue here. If you wanna setup the wingplay like he does in the past 3-4 years, the game engine simply stops you. Which i find is annoying. Its nothing new though, as it was the same before already, but dribbling/tackling was a lot different and far more advantageous for the offensive winger, so he could still pull sth off when they get the ball deep in the box close to a defender, making good use of high dribbling and technical skills.

You see the latter issue and the consequences from the limited wingplay from my 1st pic and esp. the stats on the left:

- 100% Tackling rates for both teams is pretty much ridiculous. Its only after 33 Min, but the numbers still usually don't drop below 90%. Its not only far from realistic, its also no fun to watch such matches and not really tempting to deploy any kind of offensive tactic.

- Due to the limited offensive options caused by the horrible wingers positions, my players often switch to long shots. 7 out of 13 shots were long in this game so far. And i even set my players up to refrain from long shots!

- Also my ratings are terrible, b/c not only do i rarely score, i also rarely get key passes off. Even worse, despite totally dominating my opponent, my players ratings are lower than his! How can that be?

- Finally, i get my results mostly from set pieces. The good thing is that i get a lot of corners with my tactic (7 already in 33 Min here), and sooner or later, i score from one. And as soon as i get ahead and the opponent opens up, i might score another goal form a counter attack. But scoring from high possession play? Forget it ...

Have you tried putting them in MR/ML position? I found a IW on support with stay wider PI actually stays wide in the final third most of the time. 

[Kharza_FM]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

Have you tried putting them in MR/ML position? I found a IW on support with stay wider PI actually stays wide in the final third most of the time. 

Yeah I had to ditch AML/AMR and do this as well.  It will keep the width in the final third.  I did a test to figure this out and broke out the editor and even added hugs line PPMs and still could never get the AML/AMR wide in the final third.  If you want that from your winger they have to be in the ML/MR slots.

[Gegenklaus]

55 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

Yeah I had to ditch AML/AMR and do this as well.  It will keep the width in the final third.  I did a test to figure this out and broke out the editor and even added hugs line PPMs and still could never get the AML/AMR wide in the final third.  If you want that from your winger they have to be in the ML/MR slots.

Yeah, true. I think it is because, as Yonko has stated before, that the AMLR strata is to be seen as wide forwards. We used to have a wide forward slot in striker strata, but that has been moved back to the AM strata. Thats why they get into the penalty box in the final third. 

[el tren]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Kharza_FM:

Yeah I had to ditch AML/AMR and do this as well.  It will keep the width in the final third.  I did a test to figure this out and broke out the editor and even added hugs line PPMs and still could never get the AML/AMR wide in the final third.  If you want that from your winger they have to be in the ML/MR slots.

I tried that and it didn't change the default positioning in the attacking line for me. Once my team established themselves in the final third (like in my above pic) the ML/R will stand in the same spot than my AML/R did. He just arrives there later. That can make a difference in the transition phase for example, b/c the ML/R start from a lower position. Lets say in a certain phase of play while my team is moving up the pitch, my AML would be 5 meters (sideways) inside the box and 15 meters from the goalline, but the same player set as ML would be 5 meters (sideways) outside the box and 25 meters from the goalline, b/c he started his run from a position that is behind the AML would have been (using random numbers here, but i hope you get the point). So it can help in certain situations and phases, depending how you set up the game, while it might also have drawbacks. But i don't see how it makes a difference in a high possession game, which is the topic here. See this pic with Sane and B.Silva set up as ML/MR this time:

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by el tren

[Gegenklaus]

It’s all relative. What mentality do you play on and what duty/role have you given them?

[el tren]

Pretty much default: Sane as Winger - Attack and B. Silva as Inverted Winger with just 'Stay Wide'. Resulting in pretty much the same positional movements for both. I even tried 'Roam from Positions' on both in 2nd half, but didn't make a noticeable difference. And otherwise same tactics as above, i.e. mostly 'Positive' mentality.

Edited November 15, 2018 by el tren

[Kharza_FM]

22 minutes ago, el tren said:

Pretty much default: Sane as Winger - Attack and B. Silva as Inverted Winger with just 'Stay Wide'. Resulting in pretty much the same positional movements for both. I even tried 'Roam from Positions' on both in 2nd half, but didn't make a noticeable difference. And otherwise same tactics as above, i.e. mostly 'Positive' mentality.

#11 is Winger on Support with Gets Forward PI he doesn't start to make a run into the box until Pulisic is about to cross.. otherwise he stays that wide even when we are camping in the final third.

Even here isn't bad.. ball central at top of the box look at the positioning of #10 and #11

Edited November 15, 2018 by Kharza_FM

[el tren]

That looks alright. Gonna try that out then. No. 11 is set as ML i guess? And do you mind posting your team tactics?

I am still not 100% convinced looking at the pic a 2nd time. Like i said, ML/R make a difference in transition, b/c they arrive in the box later. Your 2nd pic seems to be a transition with No. 7 dribbling into the final third and the ML/R currently doing the run from a deep wide position to inside the box ... seeing how their heads are pointed (towards goal, i.e. their running direction). But i will try it out regardless

Edited November 15, 2018 by el tren

[Kharza_FM]

#7 received the ball from the right side from #6.. here is the move before #7 receives it in the middle

Extremely Wide TI and I know I was messing around with the Hugs Line PPM trying to get maximum width as well.  Both ML and MR are W-S with Get Forward

Edited November 15, 2018 by Kharza_FM

[kpsia518]

look at this,Silva run forward in between Shaw & lindelof.
& Mahrez stay so wide,this is important.

A.Young can't mark two player.

[el tren]

Tried the ML/R on Support and it kinda helped quite a bit regarding width in the final third:

Thats a good width from the wingers, even though i would like them to be a bit more ahead (esp. Sane) and on line with my striker.

Setting the winger to ML/R support had some drawbacks in other phases though, b/c the ML/R position themselves a lot lower when my team is not in position. Once i gain possession and get into transition, they are often so far behind that my team can't use them for quick counters. For example (Sane behind the ball going to Gündogan):

Or another example here (Silva making a forward run with ball, being far higher than Sane):

Where my midfielder had to use my Striker that moved out of the box to the wings:

He then ran up the touchline and put a cross into the empty box. Doesn't really help at all ...

Another drawback of the low positioning is the pressing of the wingers, b/c i want them to press the opponents fullbacks, which they are now having a hard time to to due to their lower positioning. I also saw the wingers stand behind the opposing AML/R when the opponent was in possession in my half, so that both my wingbacks and my wingers were virtually marking the enemy AML/R, which is just a waste.

So overall setting ML/R support wingers helps indeed with the width but creates two new problems. In the end i will have to decide what is the lesser evil. Maybe on a match by match basis. But generally i would prefer to be able to somehow set the width of my wingers, i.e. be able to let them use the full width of the pitch even in the final third.

Edited November 16, 2018 by el tren

[mp_87]

I don't know about FM19 and the new tactical options as I'm not playing it yet, but since about FM14 or 15, and trying to replicate the evolution in how Guardiola sets up his teams, I've found for my tastes you get better results using a 4-5-1 shape if you get roles and duties correct and, whilst some concepts of his play cant be achieved, you can get a pretty good replication. The only issue has been with pressing, and that the wide players in midfield strata will drop back in front of his fullback before then closing down, allowing easy passes to be made (as I say, I don't know if this is now different with the line of engagement options) but can be worked around somewhat, albeit not perfectly, with specific man marking instructions.

But with Guardiola imitations there are so many things to get right. Roles/shape selected have to work in harmony with each other. The mentality with the ball. The aggression and risk to the press, roles/duties help with this. Attributes and especially PPM's and the right players are crucial. I know it goes against official advice, but it needs a ****load of TI's, PI's and OI's in combination. And I think more than anything else, if you are aiming to control the game for 90 minutes, you've got to watch the matches and be able to analyse it. Every minute of them. React to what is happening during the game and change things (whether that be shape, mentality, role, duty, instruction) where necessary.

Getting it right takes time, a lot of it if you're like me and ultra critical and striving to get as close to perfection as possible . It needs commitment put into it. However it does eventually pay off and you will be pleasantly surprised as to what you can achieve.

 

[Kharza_FM]

2 hours ago, el tren said:

Tried the ML/R on Support and it kinda helped quite a bit regarding width in the final third:

Thats a good width from the wingers, even though i would like them to be a bit more ahead (esp. Sane) and on line with my striker.

Setting the winger to ML/R support had some drawbacks in other phases though, b/c the ML/R position themselves a lot lower when my team is not in position. Once i gain possession and get into transition, they are often so far behind that my team can't use them for quick counters. For example (Sane behind the ball going to Gündogan):

Or another example here (Silva making a forward run with ball, being far higher than Sane):

Where my midfielder had to use my Striker that moved out of the box to the wings:

He then ran up the touchline and put a cross into the empty box. Doesn't really help at all ...

Another drawback of the low positioning is the pressing of the wingers, b/c i want them to press the opponents fullbacks, which they are now having a hard time to to due to their lower positioning. I also saw the wingers stand behind the opposing AML/R when the opponent was in possession in my half, so that both my wingbacks and my wingers were virtually marking the enemy AML/R, which is just a waste.

So overall setting ML/R support wingers helps indeed with the width but creates two new problems. In the end i will have to decide what is the lesser evil. Maybe on a match by match basis. But generally i would prefer to be able to somehow set the width of my wingers, i.e. be able to let them use the full width of the pitch even in the final third.

Did you use the Gets Further Forward PI?  I'll be honest.. what I've been doing is playing with the editor on so I can totally tweak player PPMs and provide full tactical familiarity to try stuff out until I get what I'm looking for.  I saw the same issue you did and I believe the Gets Further Forward PI and PPM made it much better during build up.

[el tren]

Yep, i used 'Get Forward' for both wingers. I also considered abusing the 'Hug Line' Trait, but haven't tried yet. It's a bit cheesy but i can guess one gets desperate ...

[Kharza_FM]

1 hour ago, el tren said:

Yep, i used 'Get Forward' for both wingers. I also considered abusing the 'Hug Line' Trait, but haven't tried yet. It's a bit cheesy but i can guess one gets desperate ...

Yep I'm abusing it.. I'm in the can this ME even get close to what I want to do and then I'll build my team for real to do it the right way.

[thejay]

I manged to make a pretty accurate Guardiola tactic in fm18 with wingers in mr/ml slots and inverted wingbacks. 

Mr/ml is definitely the way to go if you want wingers which hug the touchline, aml/amr should be more considered forward positions

It's pointless to try in fm19 though unless the match engine is improved. 

 

 

[mp_87]

For me, the Winger role is one that shouldn't be used. Far too one-dimensional and is for direct football in FM gameplay, because it so tends towards running and crossing.

[FreezingTable]

Im having the same problem when I am trying to make the Pep tactic. In this ME you need to but the wingers in the midfield option, not the offensive midifeld to get the width in attack. But as it has been mentioned, the press starts much deeper. I have made a tread myself of what I think need to be fixed in fm19. The Raumdeuter role is much close to what I want to play, maybe a bit wider, but the role is not good.

[kpsia518]

learning city's player positioning
 

[yonko]

7 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

learning city's player positioning
 

Good video.

A few notes:

- spacing of the players, how spread out they are

- movement off the ball to support

- decisions when to penetrate/when to recycle

- tempo of play, no one is holding the ball too long, 1-2-3 touch play

This is one passage of play though. Not the whole game, every game, type of tactic.

In FM terms based on this video I would say:

- Low team mentality aka risk

- short passing

- quicker tempo

- dribble less

- more disciplined

[kpsia518]

6 minutes ago, yonko said:

Good video.

A few notes:

- spacing of the players, how spread out they are

- movement off the ball to support

- decisions when to penetrate/when to recycle

- tempo of play, no one is holding the ball too long, 1-2-3 touch play

This is one passage of play though. Not the whole game, every game, type of tactic.

In FM terms based on this video I would say:

- Low team mentality aka risk

- short passing

- quicker tempo

- dribble less

- more disciplined

& one thing,don't let opponent camp the penalty box.
pep :"anyone can go into the boxes,but no one should stay inside."

how do we tell player to fall back when attack ?

 

i think this is important for pep tactic,don't let opponent camp the penalty box.

look at the video,after city enter the final third,but they got no room to attack.So they all fall back.

fall back,so try to pull United player up,this make final third a no man land

Edited November 17, 2018 by kpsia518

[Columnarius]

That video highlights a key point for me that I'm still trying to work to replicate - the mentality of each player in terms of risk taking.

Notice the moments when the Ws/IFs and CMs pass back?  There are patterns to when they feel pressure or don't see an obvious option in front of them.

When Playing on Positive or even Balance Mentality, I am seeing a bit too aggressive play in these types of situations.

Right now I'm leaning towards balanced / counter (depending on how aggressive the opponent is pressing) and I'm trying to determine which players to give the "Take More Risks" PI with the two CMs being the likely candidates.  I really feel like positive results in a lot of overly aggressive play although it also is more likely to produce those nice through balls and aggressive moment off the ball.

What do others think about this aspect?

[Mitja]

5 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

learning city's player positioning
 

you meen movement? in FM players look like they have default attacking positions which they hardly leave.

basic football stuff, at least one player making run towards ball carrier, another player making run into space which has opened because of the first movement. 

[Kharza_FM]

5 minutes ago, Mitja said:

you meen movement? in FM players look like they have default attacking positions which they hardly leave.

basic football stuff, at least one player making run towards ball carrier, another player making run into space which has opened because of the first movement. 

Blaspemy.. those sound like principles of play.. kind of like Pressure/Cover..

[Mitja]

yes very complicated stuff, but it was there until recently. wide forwards didn't park into the box, and players were actually droping deep even played one-two's...what happened?

[Columnarius]

Going off of WhoScored, Man City average the following per game:

• 2.89 goals
• 20.1 shots  (7.6 on target)
• 10.9 dribbles
• 680.5 passes
• 89.5% passing
• 62.6% possession

I've tested 4-1-4-1 vs. 4-1-2-2-1 and as far as I can tell, you lose 10-15% in possession, 1-5% passing accuracy and 100-200 total passes.

Although I also like the spacing and movement off the ball of the ML/MR vs. the AML/AMR, I simply can't get close the numbers above unless I go with the latter.

Regarding roles, I am not happy with the amount of dribbling into defenders any role with a "Dribble Often" PI displays - even on lower mentalities.  Therefore,  I prefer the Raumdeuter over the W or IF.  It would be nice to have a role in the AML / AMR strata that wasn't a playmaker or a target man, didn't have the "Dribble Often" PI and could play with either the "Stay Wider" or "Sit Narrower" PI.

I'm finding "Get Further Forward" PI key to simulating the forward runs of the AML / AMR.  But is the "Pass into Space" TI needed if my CMs both have the "Take More Risks" and "More Direct Passes" PI?  I'm thinking it isn't needed.

For Width, it seems like "Wide" is ideal for creating enough horizontal space between positions in order to increase time on the ball without risking passing accuracy.

For Tempo, I'm still unsure whether "Slightly Lower" is useful against the more defensive teams or not.

Finally, a question to the group about options for pressing:  Some of you may recall the fine write-up on Pep's Barcelona over at Passion4FM a few years ago.  This was the first time I remember seeing the following recommended opposition instructions associated with Pep's style of pressing, which I have played around with over the few years but haven't concluded if it really helps to better reflect his style or not.  Any opinions about this?

Edited November 17, 2018 by Columnarius

[Jyuan83]

The key to guardiola’s man city team is in getting the wingers to stretch the defence for the channels to open up for the two “8”s in david silva and bernardo to exploit with their runs and passing. The wingers also exploit the gaps between the fb and cb and either score goals from good passes from the two playmakers or to cutback across goal for a tap-in. The wingers only enter the box when a killing blow is imminent. From the vid by @kpsia518 sane stayed wide as much as possible until the last possible moment so that the channels remains stretched for the maximum possible exploitation by the playmakers. I would just go with ML/R and put them as roam and stay wider with wm(a). AML/R will always converge too early. Those are wide striker spots anyway.

[el tren]

Still, if i set up a 'Extremely Wide' tactic and set my AML/R on 'Stay Wide', i would want these players to actually be as wide as possible, i.e. more or less hug the line for most phases. Pretty much unless the ball is on the other side of the pitch and the oppositions defense line moved towards that side, and a cross or quick pass and therefore a goal threat is imminent. Otherwise these options, checkboxes and whatnot are more decoration than an actual content, as they don't seem to matter.