Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation

[kurupted]

2 horas atrás, Gegenklaus disse:

Totally agree, and you wrote it so much better than me. The bolded part is extremely important if you ask me.

 

I get what you are using, but the two number 8's movement and position is hard to replicate. So what I like to do is just replicate parts of their general movement. Like one being David Silva high up in the half space, between the lines, while de Bruyne is more of a deeper organizer, moving with more freedom then organize the rest of the team according to the job, you've assigned those two. It's hard to get everything squeezed into one FM tactic - or at least, I think it is - as City's attacking patterns, movement and build up varies a lot during games.

When I try to replicate the sort of style of Pep I usually avoid playmakers roles because a lot of the play will naturally go through them and the players are more inclined to leave their designated playing zone. A cornerstone in Guardiola's playing style is players are assigned certain zones they need to be in according to the ball and the opposition (like, stay in your positions), so the team gets spread out nicely and makes the space available to play as big as possible. Then they will look to lurk the opposition into one side of the pitch and then switch the play. Overloads and that kind of stuff, which I don't know a whole lot about to be honest. 

But you are absolutely right in your observations about City. You sometimes see de Bruyne/B. Silva and D. Silva close to each other, then really far from each other.

I don't agree with you. The players don't have to stay in designated playing zone, you often see KDB and DS leaving their half-space when they need to, just look at the image i sent, to create numerical advantage both 8's move close to each other, you can't simply have them play "designated zones", what you can say his, their man playing zone is the half-space, thats correct, but they often leave that position when the situation needs to. Same of Sane, you can see him going narrow and the fullback overlaps him, you are correct when you say they have specific playing zones, but they are not restricted to them, the only players that i often see and don't leave position maybe the wingers and Fernandinho ?

When i talked about the Mezzalas, the MEZ role recreate the "playing zone" that both 8's usually play, but they rarely leave that space, you have inumerous roles that can play the half-space, not only the Mezzala, the AP plays in the half-space, the N10 plays in the half-space, the F9 plays in the half-space, what i wanted to say, is that the AP can get into the half-space and more, they recreate the roaming that both midfields do, let's see, we want to create numerical advantage in every situation, what we don't want is to overcrowd an area that doesn't need more players, we often see KDB on the right half-space and DS in the left half-space, but you can see DS going deeper and KDB too, sometimes the 8's leave the half-space to create passing lanes.

I watched many games with 2 Mezzalas in the midfield, and i didn't like what i see because they often are left in the half-space and rarely move into a player to create more passing options, the Mezzala is not kind of a playmaking type, in FM, this is very important, we want both 8's to roam, creating numerical advantage, while staying in the half-space.

You have to remember something, depending on wich opponent you are facing off, there are matches that you can't have players in the half-space, imagine you are playing a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields next to the defensive line, its almost impossible that the Mezzalas are effective in that situation

[Gegenklaus]

23 minutes ago, kurupted said:

I don't agree with you. The players don't have to stay in designated playing zone, you often see KDB and DS leaving their half-space when they need to, just look at the image i sent, to create numerical advantage both 8's move close to each other, you can't simply have them play "designated zones", what you can say his, their man playing zone is the half-space, thats correct, but they often leave that position when the situation needs to. Same of Sane, you can see him going narrow and the fullback overlaps him, you are correct when you say they have specific playing zones, but they are not restricted to them, the only players that i often see and don't leave position maybe the wingers and Fernandinho ?

When i talked about the Mezzalas, the MEZ role recreate the "playing zone" that both 8's usually play, but they rarely leave that space, you have inumerous roles that can play the half-space, not only the Mezzala, the AP plays in the half-space, the N10 plays in the half-space, the F9 plays in the half-space, what i wanted to say, is that the AP can get into the half-space and more, they recreate the roaming that both midfields do, let's see, we want to create numerical advantage in every situation, what we don't want is to overcrowd an area that doesn't need more players, we often see KDB on the right half-space and DS in the left half-space, but you can see DS going deeper and KDB too, sometimes the 8's leave the half-space to create passing lanes.

I watched many games with 2 Mezzalas in the midfield, and i didn't like what i see because they often are left in the half-space and rarely move into a player to create more passing options, the Mezzala is not kind of a playmaking type, in FM, this is very important, we want both 8's to roam, creating numerical advantage, while staying in the half-space.

You have to remember something, depending on wich opponent you are facing off, there are matches that you can't have players in the half-space, imagine you are playing a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields next to the defensive line, its almost impossible that the Mezzalas are effective in that situation

Good points. Have you tried using the 2x AP's in midfield?  How would you generally set the system with that midfield?

[kurupted]

17 minutos atrás, Gegenklaus disse:

Good points. Have you tried using the 2x AP's in midfield?  How would you generally set the system with that midfield?

From what ive seen, when you use an AP-A with "Get Further Forward" PI he often ends up in the box, often receiving a cross, while the AP-S doesn't enter the box, they don't play in the half-space that much, but you can find him there sometimes. The problem is, when they have 2 DM's or opponent play narrow, you can't have Mezzala roles, simply because they will do nothing in that match, the AP can be found in the half-spaces, basically its a roaming player, when he has space he is in the half-space, when he doesn't have, he roams. What i like most, and this i didn't see in the Mezzala role, he roams much more than the MEZ, i think the Mezzala is resctricted to that area and rarely leaves to go to the opposite side to help, with both AP's i saw that much more.

SK-S

2 Fullbacks, changing roles (opponent weakness)

2 CD's (i dont like the BPD, cause they take risks unnecessarily, while the CD's are much more short passing

1 DM - It depends alot, when im facing a team that has pacey wingers or try direct balls or even has scoring changes i play with DM-D, but whey im facing a weaker team or equal and i see that they dont want to "assume" the game, i play with DLP-D.

The 2 8s, one is AP-A with Get Further Forward and Roam from position and the other AP-S with Drible less (you can have Shoot more often if your players has high Decision and long shot attributes).

The wingers, well, it depends too, if im facing a weaker team, i normally play W-S, cause the opponent team are very compact and i can't find spaces to my Wingers explore (behind the defense etc). Against equal teams/away/defensive high line i play with W-A cause i want them to try to do a run behind while maintain the width.

The striker, well, it really depends too, against opponents that have high defensive line or when they are losing and push the defensive line up, i use a AF-A, but when they play deeper, i tend to use DLF-S, i tried the N10 too cause i like the movements but it really depends, imagine you face a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields, maybe use a N10 instead of DLF makes more sense, since the DLF will have trouble to receive the ball and the number 10 can drag away a man-mark.

About the mentality, well, i was trying Balanced and i was having good results, i don't have "Pass Into Space" cause i dont like the CD's or even the fullbacks to do that pass, i really want the 8's to have that kind of creativity.

About tempo: normal with the very large width

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

From what ive seen, when you use an AP-A with "Get Further Forward" PI he often ends up in the box, often receiving a cross, while the AP-S doesn't enter the box, they don't play in the half-space that much, but you can find him there sometimes. The problem is, when they have 2 DM's or opponent play narrow, you can't have Mezzala roles, simply because they will do nothing in that match, the AP can be found in the half-spaces, basically its a roaming player, when he has space he is in the half-space, when he doesn't have, he roams. What i like most, and this i didn't see in the Mezzala role, he roams much more than the MEZ, i think the Mezzala is resctricted to that area and rarely leaves to go to the opposite side to help, with both AP's i saw that much more.

SK-S

2 Fullbacks, changing roles (opponent weakness)

2 CD's (i dont like the BPD, cause they take risks unnecessarily, while the CD's are much more short passing

1 DM - It depends alot, when im facing a team that has pacey wingers or try direct balls or even has scoring changes i play with DM-D, but whey im facing a weaker team or equal and i see that they dont want to "assume" the game, i play with DLP-D.

The 2 8s, one is AP-A with Get Further Forward and Roam from position and the other AP-S with Drible less (you can have Shoot more often if your players has high Decision and long shot attributes).

The wingers, well, it depends too, if im facing a weaker team, i normally play W-S, cause the opponent team are very compact and i can't find spaces to my Wingers explore (behind the defense etc). Against equal teams/away/defensive high line i play with W-A cause i want them to try to do a run behind while maintain the width.

The striker, well, it really depends too, against opponents that have high defensive line or when they are losing and push the defensive line up, i use a AF-A, but when they play deeper, i tend to use DLF-S, i tried the N10 too cause i like the movements but it really depends, imagine you face a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields, maybe use a N10 instead of DLF makes more sense, since the DLF will have trouble to receive the ball and the number 10 can drag away a man-mark.

About the mentality, well, i was trying Balanced and i was having good results, i don't have "Pass Into Space" cause i dont like the CD's or even the fullbacks to do that pass, i really want the 8's to have that kind of creativity.

About tempo: normal with the very large width

Nice man, thanks for sharing. How has the APa and APs performed?

Edited January 24, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[kurupted]

If you want to know, i see that the AP-A in the defensive process do drop deeper to help in the defense. The AP-S, if you want to know, i think its very similar to the BBM/RPM movements, the AP-S stays outside the box, roams to create passing lanes.

[Ivan787]

I'm very interested in trying the configuration with two Advanced Playmaker that kurupted suggests, because I suppose that using APs could be the solution.

Yesterday I review last match of Man City and is very evident the splitting between support (build-up) players and attacking players.

In the first phase there is a slow build up phase between Ederson, CBs, Fernandinho and IWBs....this phase, that could be assimiled to "defensive" phase, because keeping possession is a very strong form of defensive game, is as long as is possible to find one of the 5 attacker (often KDB or Silva, but also Sane or Aguero) in the space. If you see the stats you will find that the two CBs are always the player which complete more passes than every other players on the pitch. This is the first difference from Barcelona, where often Xavi was the player with more passes completed.

Than, after that phase, there is a sort of "switching" of the play. It seems that you have a switch to turn ON and OFF the attacking phase. The ball moves to one player in the half space and from this moment, (in the most cases), the "back five" stop to be active and all is assigned to the 5 attackers. In this case using the two APs could help to achieve this configuration where the two 8s become the main passing threat in the "attacking phase".

I've used a very rigid approach in order to explain better the concept of a team splitted in two phases, in reality there are a lot of flexibility depending on the match situation, but I think that general concept is this.

I think that Guardiola approach, in Fm terms, is definitely structured and not fluid or very fluid.

[nikolaj760]

14 hours ago, kurupted said:

From what ive seen, when you use an AP-A with "Get Further Forward" PI he often ends up in the box, often receiving a cross, while the AP-S doesn't enter the box, they don't play in the half-space that much, but you can find him there sometimes. The problem is, when they have 2 DM's or opponent play narrow, you can't have Mezzala roles, simply because they will do nothing in that match, the AP can be found in the half-spaces, basically its a roaming player, when he has space he is in the half-space, when he doesn't have, he roams. What i like most, and this i didn't see in the Mezzala role, he roams much more than the MEZ, i think the Mezzala is resctricted to that area and rarely leaves to go to the opposite side to help, with both AP's i saw that much more.

SK-S

2 Fullbacks, changing roles (opponent weakness)

2 CD's (i dont like the BPD, cause they take risks unnecessarily, while the CD's are much more short passing

1 DM - It depends alot, when im facing a team that has pacey wingers or try direct balls or even has scoring changes i play with DM-D, but whey im facing a weaker team or equal and i see that they dont want to "assume" the game, i play with DLP-D.

The 2 8s, one is AP-A with Get Further Forward and Roam from position and the other AP-S with Drible less (you can have Shoot more often if your players has high Decision and long shot attributes).

The wingers, well, it depends too, if im facing a weaker team, i normally play W-S, cause the opponent team are very compact and i can't find spaces to my Wingers explore (behind the defense etc). Against equal teams/away/defensive high line i play with W-A cause i want them to try to do a run behind while maintain the width.

The striker, well, it really depends too, against opponents that have high defensive line or when they are losing and push the defensive line up, i use a AF-A, but when they play deeper, i tend to use DLF-S, i tried the N10 too cause i like the movements but it really depends, imagine you face a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields, maybe use a N10 instead of DLF makes more sense, since the DLF will have trouble to receive the ball and the number 10 can drag away a man-mark.

About the mentality, well, i was trying Balanced and i was having good results, i don't have "Pass Into Space" cause i dont like the CD's or even the fullbacks to do that pass, i really want the 8's to have that kind of creativity.

About tempo: normal with the very large width

How do you setup defensively against stronger opponents and difficult away games? I often find myself winning with ease against weaker or equal teams, even against strong teams at home but it seems impossible to win against the big teams away from home without abandoning the tactic.

[Gegenklaus]

2 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

I'm very interested in trying the configuration with two Advanced Playmaker that kurupted suggests, because I suppose that using APs could be the solution.

Yesterday I review last match of Man City and is very evident the splitting between support (build-up) players and attacking players.

In the first phase there is a slow build up phase between Ederson, CBs, Fernandinho and IWBs....this phase, that could be assimiled to "defensive" phase, because keeping possession is a very strong form of defensive game, is as long as is possible to find one of the 5 attacker (often KDB or Silva, but also Sane or Aguero) in the space. If you see the stats you will find that the two CBs are always the player which complete more passes than every other players on the pitch. This is the first difference from Barcelona, where often Xavi was the player with more passes completed.

Than, after that phase, there is a sort of "switching" of the play. It seems that you have a switch to turn ON and OFF the attacking phase. The ball moves to one player in the half space and from this moment, (in the most cases), the "back five" stop to be active and all is assigned to the 5 attackers. In this case using the two APs could help to achieve this configuration where the two 8s become the main passing threat in the "attacking phase".

I've used a very rigid approach in order to explain better the concept of a team splitted in two phases, in reality there are a lot of flexibility depending on the match situation, but I think that general concept is this.

I think that Guardiola approach, in Fm terms, is definitely structured and not fluid or very fluid.

Do you think it is possible to sort of make that switching of attacking intend in FM 19? We don’t have the Shape Team instruction anymore where we could make the difference between individual mentalities bigger. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[Ivan787]

1 ora fa, Gegenklaus ha scritto:

Do you think it is possible to sort of make that switching of attacking intend in FM 19? We don’t have the Shape Team instruction anymore where we could make the difference between individual mentalities bigger. 

I have to try, because unfortunately during last weeks I have a lot of work so I can't play. But yes, in my opinion is possible and the key should be individual mentality.

As you know there is a team mentality, and an individual mentality that could be very different from the one setted with TI. You can play with cautious TI but have a winger on positive mentality. There is a very good tutorial of Rashidi about this.

Now i don't have too much time to explain how I think to approach it, but I promise I write some attempts as soon as possible.

[Gegenklaus]

16 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

I have to try, because unfortunately during last weeks I have a lot of work so I can't play. But yes, in my opinion is possible and the key should be individual mentality.

As you know there is a team mentality, and an individual mentality that could be very different from the one setted with TI. You can play with cautious TI but have a winger on positive mentality. There is a very good tutorial of Rashidi about this.

Now i don't have too much time to explain how I think to approach it, but I promise I write some attempts as soon as possible.

You just gave me an idea: Back 5 with defend and support duties on cautious mentality - front 5 on attack duties - maybe not the striker. Thats interesting. de Bruyne’s PPM’s will make him drop off. God, I cant play for the next couple of days, but thanks man. That is a really interesting concept. 

[VinceLombardi]

5 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

Than, after that phase, there is a sort of "switching" of the play. It seems that you have a switch to turn ON and OFF the attacking phase.

 

2 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Do you think it is possible to sort of make that switching of attacking intend in FM 19? We don’t have the Shape Team instruction anymore where we could make the difference between individual mentalities bigger. 

I have no idea how City plays, but I get this kind of behavior and structure in my American Football system. One of the centerpieces of the system is spliting my attackers into 2 lines and a 3rd group that plays between them. It causes 2 of the behaviors I think you are describing: 1) the attack kinda slow plays around the middle third until the ball gets to a more attacking player, after which the whole team springs forward into the final 3rd; and 2) the back line of attackers kinda falls off and doesn't follow the attack into the box, making them available to protect on defense and recycle possession.

Now I certainly don't have the wing play or shape that you are talking about. But, it could be a starting point to get you going.

Edited January 25, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[kurupted]

The only way to achieve what you guys are saying is with roles. The DLP-D is more of a cautious player, no risk passes, same with de CD's, but it really depends, if you want your fullbacks to join the attack in some way you cant use Defense dutys. I tried now is to use the AP-A wich i see good results, because the AP on attack duty usually ends in the penalty box trying to finish any play and the RPM/AP stays outside the box. If you want to know, the main difference between the RPM and the AP is that the RPM usually roams around all the pitch, and honestly i dont want that, i prefer use the AP-S than the RPM. PS: AP-S/RPM/BBM have very similar movement patterns

[VinceLombardi]

24 minutes ago, kurupted said:

The only way to achieve what you guys are saying is with roles. 

That's a big part of it, but a lot of it will depend on the interplay between Roaming, Gets Further Forward, Hold Position, and Attacking Duty.

A lot of players seem to think that Roaming and Get Further Forward are aggressive PI, that cause your guys to get out of position. That's not entirely true. These instructions actually just have your players move into areas where there is space. If there isn't any space, they don't move. 

So you can control where they go by shifting the players around them. And they will change position depending on where the opposing players are. Think about how you can move magnets when you put the same poles at each other. 

This differs from the Attacking duty and hold position in that they do their instructions without regard to the other players around them. This means they can be used to create space for the Roaming/Get Further Forward players, by vacating an area, or push (or pull) those same players by applying (or not applying) pressure to them. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, VinceLombardi disse:

That's a big part of it, but a lot of it will depend on the interplay between Roaming, Gets Further Forward, Hold Position, and Attacking Duty.

A lot of players seem to think that Roaming and Get Further Forward are aggressive PI, that cause your guys to get out of position. That's not entirely true. These instructions actually just have your players move into areas where there is space. If there isn't any space, they don't move. 

So you can control where they go by shifting the players around them. And they will change position depending on where the opposing players are. Think about how you can move magnets when you put the same poles at each other. 

This differs from the Attacking duty and hold position in that they do their instructions without regard to the other players around them. This means they can be used to create space for the Roaming/Get Further Forward players, by vacating an area, or push (or pull) those same players by applying (or not applying) pressure to them. 

But there are players that aren't allowed to roam as much. The wingers per example, they are told to hugh the line as long as they can, thats one important aspect in guardiola's philosophy, stretch the defense, if the winger roam to another place we can't stretch the defensive line. What you are saying, is probably swap positions, like, the MCE goes to the wing and switches with the winger for a moment

[VinceLombardi]

14 minutes ago, kurupted said:

But there are players that aren't allowed to roam as much. The wingers per example, they are told to hugh the line as long as they can, thats one important aspect in guardiola's philosophy, stretch the defense, if the winger roam to another place we can't stretch the defensive line. What you are saying, is probably swap positions, like, the MCE goes to the wing and switches with the winger for a moment

Oh certainly. I have no idea how City plays, so that wasn't about specifically getting what you want in the re-creation of his system.

Its more about pointing out important tools to get different movements beyond what the roles offer and also to get some of that behavior described above, because I doubt roles alone are going to get y'all what you are looking for. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[wkdsoul]

13 minutes ago, kurupted said:

But there are players that aren't allowed to roam as much. The wingers per example, they are told to hugh the line as long as they can, thats one important aspect in guardiola's philosophy, stretch the defense, if the winger roam to another place we can't stretch the defensive line. What you are saying, is probably swap positions, like, the MCE goes to the wing and switches with the winger for a moment

Depends purely on the winger/full back combination.   Sane without Mendy has to provide the width, Deplh, Zinchenko & Danilo will all cut or sit inside, Mendy can go out side or inside though.   Sterling/Silva/Mahrez all have license to drift in due to Walker or Danilo being much more comforatable outside on the right.

[LaRegista4]

Hey Guys, I really like Pep and his influence on tactics, and certainly also his influence on us FMers.  I have not yet been able to test this tactic as I am not familiar with testning and tinkering that much. But from what Ive read in this thread, you Guys really inspired me. I am No guru neither very good at creating difficult replications of real Life tactics. So just take this shot for what it is, nothing more nothing less. Dell free to test it, and Also play around with TI's and so on, as Ive not come to this yet.  This is not a complet replication. The Libero role in this setup was my own thought, but read more about this below. Here is My take on the some thing that iterates the movement in build up and final third                                                       

                          SWK-s                    

               CD-d           Libero - d or s

IWBs/CWbs     DM - s or d      IWBs/CWBs 

                 RPM-s                 AP-a 

W-a/IF-a                                          W-a/IF-a                       

                             DLF-a 

The idea is having one extra creative outlet in the build up phase in the libero role. Him pushing in to midfield in possesion will Push the AP further up the pitch closer to the wing/IF, sort of like David Silva in City. Ofc the wide roles will differ as we adapt to opposition weaknesses. Maybe we need even more presence in midfield and one on ones with our pacy and creative Wingers. Maybe we need more direct players in the halfspace towards goal and therefore one CWB who overlap and provides width and another creative wide outlet. I think most of the roles is self explanatory, mainly due to the rather geeky debate going on in this thread.  I could have opted for a BPD, but he doesnt move the way I want. And sort of drive in to midfield offering an outlet in a triangel with the inverted wingbacks, the DM and so on.  As you can see and also I mentioned. The roles and mentality will differ, but the main blue print Will remain the same. In the end of the day, its not a plug&play so you have to adapt with regards your own players. The TI's and PI's are some thing I have not touched yet. Nor am I sure that I want to atm. Kind of afraid of the results that will come up, if someone decides to try it out haha.  But as said, the blue print will remain the same throughout the testperiod. Creative, lots of forward runs, high dynamic intens pressing and ballcirculation to prevent the opponent from scoring but also for us to score. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by LaRegista4

[kurupted]

One of my great questions is. Man City players are usually close to each others, they pass to the feet and never do a direct pass unless its a key pass, and this make me think, how can we have midfields players close to each other but still have Wingers in the touchline ?

[wkdsoul]

2 minutes ago, kurupted said:

One of my great questions is. Man City players are usually close to each others, they pass to the feet and never do a direct pass unless its a key pass, and this make me think, how can we have midfields players close to each other but still have Wingers in the touchline ?

short passing

winger with "hugs line" PPM ? 

[kurupted]

1 minuto atrás, wkdsoul disse:

short passing

winger with "hugs line" PPM ? 

Thats not what i meant.

See, midfield players are close to each other, but the wingers hugh the line, how can we replicate this ? Playing Fairly narrow/balanced and PI "Hugh the line" ?

[Experienced Defender]

First, Pep's "wingers" do not play on the touchline all the time, but only when it makes sense during an attack/build-up.

Second, he rarely (if ever) plays both wide forwards as wingers (role).

[kurupted]

5 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

First, Pep's "wingers" do not play on the touchline all the time, but only when it makes sense during an attack/build-up.

Second, he rarely (if ever) plays both wide forwards as wingers (role).

And that answers any ones question ? Everyone knows that.

Read what the others said, you are telling no one a mind-blowing sentence, everybody knows that since page 1.

[Experienced Defender]

As far as I remember, you mentioned the "wingers hugging a touchline" a couple of posts above 

[kurupted]

9 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

As far as I remember, you mentioned the "wingers hugging a touchline" a couple of posts above 

I talked about having the midfielders close to each other while the wingers stay in the touchline.

[wkdsoul]

so fairly narrow formation, shorter passing, one winger with Hugs Line PPM.   I think Cleon or Merry have an article on how to overload one side as well, that might help. 

[kurupted]

2 horas atrás, wkdsoul disse:

so fairly narrow formation, shorter passing, one winger with Hugs Line PPM.   I think Cleon or Merry have an article on how to overload one side as well, that might help. 

Cause when i play very wide the midfield often gets too spread, and i have my players doing 20m pass to a player that is man-marked.

[Icetuga]

Am 26.11.2018 um 11:00 schrieb Ivan787:

There is one interesting thing to note about City passing map. They are the only big team that don't have the DM Player (Fernandinho) in the most completed pass. In addition no Silva neither KDB are in the most completed pass. This means that they are not playmaker (in terms of FM role).

These maps are great and give you the best input you would need to work on a specific tactic.

In case of ManCity you can see that they are very organized and rigid at their position, and that they don´t use prominent playmakers at all. The whole team is responsible to get the ball running.

And another thing you see is that they abuse flank switching with players giving space to each other.

In contrast you can see Liverpool under Klopp like to switch flanks very often too, but is way more urgent upfront and uses designated playmakers which get the ball often in the middle of the pitch.

Also you can see the are not very rigid at their positioning and allow more penetration at each teammates space, you can see clearly with this maps how urgent they go forward.

Very interesting and the best addition to this thread which surprisingly didn´t got the attention it should have.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Icetuga

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, Icetuga disse:

These maps are great and give you the best input you would need to work on a specific tactic.

In case of ManCity you can see that they are very organized and rigid at their position, and that they don´t use prominent playmakers at all. The whole team is responsible to get the ball running.

And another thing you see is that they abuse flank switching with players giving space to each other.

In contrast you can see Liverpool under Klopp like to switch flanks very often too, but is way more urgent upfront and uses designated playmakers which get the ball often in the middle of the pitch.

Also you can see the are not very rigid at their positioning and allow more penetration at each teammates space, you can see clearly with this maps how urgent they go forward.

Very interesting and the best addition to this thread which surprisingly didn´t got the attention it should have.

That is pretty interesting.

Now remember: we are playing Football Manager,not managing a team in real-life. There is a big difference.

[Icetuga]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kurupted:

That is pretty interesting.

Now remember: we are playing Football Manager,not managing a team in real-life. There is a big difference.

Yeah thats kinds obvious isn´t it?

It is impossible to include every detail form a real life side into the current ME, but i still think it is possible to implement the general frame of that concept in the game.

People just need to realise that to get quality results in real life and in the game, you need high quality players in terms of creativity and ball control to pull that of. 

 

If you try this high demanding stuff at a side which doesn´t have that kind of players in crucial positions, that just doesn´t work if you don´t have a Xavi you can´t expect high quality through balls  and you need to adjust.

But you can mantain a general mainframe of the philosophy and build a team with that ideia, but for the Pep style you need creative high working players with ball control, there is nothing going around it even if your tactic is 100% correct it could go wrong with the wrong players for the job.

You see guys try and implement a high possesion, passing game with mediocre teams, and then ask for help and why it doesn´t work out.

Yes it is a just a game and not real life, but you can replicate great teams with time and development.   

Edited January 26, 2019 by Icetuga

[Sincefm00]

Le 24/01/2019 à 18:56, Pep468 a dit :

Could you translate the player roles into English please?

Gk : Sweeper keeper (Attack)

DR: IWB (Support) ' Take Fewer Risks, Dribble Less, Shoot Less Often, Get Further Forward '

DCR: Central Defender (Cover) ' Take Fewer Risks'

DCL: Ball Playing Defender (Defend) ' Shoot Less'

WBL: Complete Wing-Back (Attack) 'Take fewer risks, shoot less, close down more

DM: Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend) ' Ease off tackles'

MCL: Central Midfielder (Support) 'Take fewer risks, dribble less, shoot less, hold position, close down more'

AMR: Inside Forward (Attack) ' Hold up ball, shoot less, STAY WIDER, Close down more, tackle harder' 

AMCR: Shadow striker  'shoot less, roam from position, close down more, tackle harder, mark tighter' 

AML : Inside forward  (Attack) ' holdup ball, shoot less, sit narrower, close down more' 

STCL: Deep lying forward (Support) 'pass short, dribble less, shoot less, roam from position, tackle harder, mark tighter'

 

[Pep468]

1 hour ago, Sincefm00 said:

Gk : Sweeper keeper (Attack)

DR: IWB (Support) ' Take Fewer Risks, Dribble Less, Shoot Less Often, Get Further Forward '

DCR: Central Defender (Cover) ' Take Fewer Risks'

DCL: Ball Playing Defender (Defend) ' Shoot Less'

WBL: Complete Wing-Back (Attack) 'Take fewer risks, shoot less, close down more

DM: Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend) ' Ease off tackles'

MCL: Central Midfielder (Support) 'Take fewer risks, dribble less, shoot less, hold position, close down more'

AMR: Inside Forward (Attack) ' Hold up ball, shoot less, STAY WIDER, Close down more, tackle harder' 

AMCR: Shadow striker  'shoot less, roam from position, close down more, tackle harder, mark tighter' 

AML : Inside forward  (Attack) ' holdup ball, shoot less, sit narrower, close down more' 

STCL: Deep lying forward (Support) 'pass short, dribble less, shoot less, roam from position, tackle harder, mark tighter'

 

Thanks pal, also which crossing type is it ? Mixed, low, float or whipped? 

[kurupted]

18 minutos atrás, Pep468 disse:

Thanks pal, also which crossing type is it ? Mixed, low, float or whipped? 

What ? A shadow striker ? ?????

That doesnt look like at all guardiola tactical choices. In guardiola's there is no Shador Striker '-' And im a bit curious how your team will behave when have the ball, cause the midfield vs 4-3-3 is a walk in the park. Did you even try that tactic ? Show results.

[kurupted]

I was playing around in FM 2017 touch, a fast-paced version of the game, while i was testing some tactics, involving Guardiola's philosophy and style of play, i got some good conclusions.

First of all, the choice of 4-1-4-1 instead of the common 4-3-3. in 4-3-3/4-1-2-2-1, the wingers dont hold the width too long, i don't want that, i want my wingers to stretch the defense. The choice of AP-A instead of Mezzala-A. Its correct that Mezzala plays in the half-space, but a Mezzala-A doesn't contribute to the build-up like the AP does, MEZ-A doesn't drop deep enough to pick the ball and start the play, the AP on attack duty still gets forward to finish a play and picks the ball and roams, thats what i want. The BBM was a natural choice, KDB stays in the half-space, the BBM does that too, but he does something that the MEZ can't, he can drop deeper and pick the ball. Now, what i found interesting and people should notice, the choice of Wide Midfielders. If you read the description of that role, it explains that specific role is dependant on the teamwork of the rest of the players, the common Winger or Inside Forward is a more creative player, his main objective is to create chances, and we know that the wingers on Guardiola command don't do that, they need to contribute to the build-up and are more of a teamwork player that a Winger in FM terms.

About the fullbacks, they are a role that can change, imagine that i want to create a overlap in the left wing, then i go to the PI instructions and i set "Stay narrower" and "Cut inside with the ball" while the FB-A can overlap him.

CD's: Take Fewer Risks

Fullbacks: Take Fewer risks, Dribble Less, Shoot less often.

DLP: No PI's

AP-A: Pass it shorter, Get Further with the ball.

BBM: Pass It shorter, take fewer risks, drible less, shoot less often.

WM: Pass it shorter, take fewer risks, dribles less, shoot less often, stay wider (it can be changed according to what i explained before)

DLF: Pass it shorter, drible less.

The choice of the mentality is based that Guardiola players prefer to pass around waiting for a chance than going for a risky pass, in FM2017 i was playing with SL Benfica and got good possession stats while i could score goals.

 

[Sincefm00]

Il y a 1 heure, Pep468 a dit :

Thanks pal, also which crossing type is it ? Mixed, low, float or whipped? 

low 

[Sincefm00]

Il y a 1 heure, kurupted a dit :

Quoi ? Un attaquant de l'ombre? ?????

Cela ne ressemble pas à tous les choix tactiques de guardiola. Dans Guardiola, il n'y a pas de Shador Striker '-' Et je suis un peu curieux de savoir comment votre équipe se comportera quand le ballon sera pris, car le milieu de terrain vs 4-3-3 est une promenade dans le parc. Avez-vous même essayé cette tactique? Montrer les résultats.

Ma tactique est inspirée du Bayern of Pep, pas de Manchester City, et je pense qu'avec l'aide de Book of Marti Perarnau, Muller a joué comme un SS 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Sincefm00

[Ivan787]

There are 3 key factors in replicating Guardiola style: squad build up (remember that he need specific player not so common to find on the market), match flexibility, tactical solution (in FM terms). Now we are focusing more on the last aspect, but in the future I think it will be necessary to speak also about the others.

 

I made some tests yesterday and it seems that using playmakers (AP) instead of Mez improve a lot the build-up and the movements in the final third, so thank you very much Kurupted for this idea.

Also I think that is founded a solution for the different approach in the build-up (cautious) and in the final third. The key is definitely Individual Mentality: there are a lot of action you can do to have some players in Positive or Offensive mentality even if you are playing with Cautious TI.

The first way is using Cautious TI and setting attack duty for both wingers and one AP. Their mentality rises up to Positive. In this particular approach there is the issue about the forward, because if you set him with a support duty his mentality drops down to "defensive" and this means a very low risk in any action he will do. Not really what i want.

So there is the "inverse" solution: setting equilibrate or positive mentality and setting defenders and DM with defend duty and "Take fewer risk". Their mentality will drops down below positive, and this could lead to cautious build-up, also mantaing more aggressive plays at wingers and attackers.

Personally I like very much to have Silva role as AP-A with roam from position and get further forward, but I'm not still happy about wingers role. I have to decide between wingers(S) and Wide midfielders.

[kurupted]

There are thing that we can't simply recreate, one of them ? City away from home uses high defensive line. Try to do that in FM 2019 and you get SLAUGHTERED, period. About the AP-A, makes more sense an AP-A than a Mezzala if you really think.

There other thing i wanted to say is the Raumdeuter. I was playing with 2 ramdeuters and there are hybrids. They can touch the line when they have the Very Wide TI and they cut in when they see space and if they don't they stay in the wing, try that.

[Ivan787]

23 minuti fa, kurupted ha scritto:

There are thing that we can't simply recreate, one of them ? City away from home uses high defensive line. Try to do that in FM 2019 and you get SLAUGHTERED, period. About the AP-A, makes more sense an AP-A than a Mezzala if you really think.

There other thing i wanted to say is the Raumdeuter. I was playing with 2 ramdeuters and there are hybrids. They can touch the line when they have the Very Wide TI and they cut in when they see space and if they don't they stay in the wing, try that.

Yes I'm looking at Raumdeuter too. The only thing I'm a bit doubtful is that is a role available only in AML/AMR position. Probably I will try to recreate a Raumdeuter in ML/MR role.

[Gegenklaus]

4 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

There are 3 key factors in replicating Guardiola style: squad build up (remember that he need specific player not so common to find on the market), match flexibility, tactical solution (in FM terms). Now we are focusing more on the last aspect, but in the future I think it will be necessary to speak also about the others.

 

I made some tests yesterday and it seems that using playmakers (AP) instead of Mez improve a lot the build-up and the movements in the final third, so thank you very much Kurupted for this idea.

Also I think that is founded a solution for the different approach in the build-up (cautious) and in the final third. The key is definitely Individual Mentality: there are a lot of action you can do to have some players in Positive or Offensive mentality even if you are playing with Cautious TI.

The first way is using Cautious TI and setting attack duty for both wingers and one AP. Their mentality rises up to Positive. In this particular approach there is the issue about the forward, because if you set him with a support duty his mentality drops down to "defensive" and this means a very low risk in any action he will do. Not really what i want.

So there is the "inverse" solution: setting equilibrate or positive mentality and setting defenders and DM with defend duty and "Take fewer risk". Their mentality will drops down below positive, and this could lead to cautious build-up, also mantaing more aggressive plays at wingers and attackers.

Personally I like very much to have Silva role as AP-A with roam from position and get further forward, but I'm not still happy about wingers role. I have to decide between wingers(S) and Wide midfielders.

How do you find using two playmaker roles in midfield? Are thye coming close to each other?

[Ivan787]

7 minuti fa, Gegenklaus ha scritto:

How do you find using two playmaker roles in midfield? Are thye coming close to each other?

Yes, they are coming close to each other. I also use Roam from position for both.

Until now I'm much more satisfied about AP-A than AP-S so I'm thinking of changing him to other role. I think that using other role I can improve the movement off the ball, but using playmaker, due to natural "attractive" role of playmaker respect to the ball, I have a lot of passing between two 8s until they found someone (mainly wingers) free.

[Ivan787]

2 ore fa, kurupted ha scritto:

There are thing that we can't simply recreate, one of them ? City away from home uses high defensive line. Try to do that in FM 2019 and you get SLAUGHTERED, period. About the AP-A, makes more sense an AP-A than a Mezzala if you really think.

There other thing i wanted to say is the Raumdeuter. I was playing with 2 ramdeuters and there are hybrids. They can touch the line when they have the Very Wide TI and they cut in when they see space and if they don't they stay in the wing, try that.

Remember that Guardiola style is very risky, defensively speaking and is based on the assumption that your team will be better than the opponent in most of the match. Trying to use that approach in match where is expected to play defensive because the opponent will have the control of the pitch could be a suicide. This tactical style needs very high mental attribute, in order to maintain possession also if pressed. With a build-up pattern of 2-3-5, with very high defensive line, losing the ball, and failing to do first pressing could leave a lot of space for opponent.

[davehanson]

5 hours ago, kurupted said:

There are thing that we can't simply recreate, one of them ? City away from home uses high defensive line. Try to do that in FM 2019 and you get SLAUGHTERED, period. About the AP-A, makes more sense an AP-A than a Mezzala if you really think.

There other thing i wanted to say is the Raumdeuter. I was playing with 2 ramdeuters and there are hybrids. They can touch the line when they have the Very Wide TI and they cut in when they see space and if they don't they stay in the wing, try that.

Completely untrue about getting 'SLAUGHTERED' if you play a high line away from home. I always play a high line with high press intensity and my defensive record is excellent:

 

You can easily play a high line if you set the team up correctly. 

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, davehanson disse:

Completely untrue about getting 'SLAUGHTERED' if you play a high line away from home. I always play a high line with high press intensity and my defensive record is excellent:

 

You can easily play a high line if you set the team up correctly. 

Lol, you are playing Barcelona, show your results against top teams in Europe  If you play against a pacey Striker or wingers you get s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-e-d.

4 horas atrás, Ivan787 disse:

Remember that Guardiola style is very risky, defensively speaking and is based on the assumption that your team will be better than the opponent in most of the match. Trying to use that approach in match where is expected to play defensive because the opponent will have the control of the pitch could be a suicide. This tactical style needs very high mental attribute, in order to maintain possession also if pressed. With a build-up pattern of 2-3-5, with very high defensive line, losing the ball, and failing to do first pressing could leave a lot of space for opponent.

Nope, Guardiola style is not risky, in fact is very low risk, they play a slow football, just like he did in Barcelona, they pass the ball and pass the ball and wait for a breach, but if they don't find it, they just "reset" the play.

 

You guys need to understand something, there are thing we CANT simply replicate in Football Manager. One aspect is the question about Mezzalas, yes, the mezzala does stay in the half-space, but both DS and KDB dont stay in the half-space everytime, there are games that they simply can't play in the half space. The other thing is the defensive line, City away from home can play with a high defensive line, try that in FM 2019 and see what happens

The other thing, most important of all that people forget is the MATCH ENGINE. Want to have 70-75% possession ? Fine, but that means you don't create score chances. This is not FM2012 when with certain tactics you have heavy possession regarding the team your are playing. The more possession you have the less risk you play, in FM, that translates into few scoring chances.

[davehanson]

15 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Lol, you are playing Barcelona, show your results against top teams in Europe  If you play against a pacey Striker or wingers you get s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-e-d.

I could almost have predicted it would be the standard response 'playing as Barcelona'. What you are doing is spreading mis-information. Because YOU can't get a high defensive line working, YOU think it can't be done. What happens then is that people see this and take it as fact. It is anything but.

Yes, I am playing as Barcelona, but my squad, as I only took over this season, isn't world class. I am the third best in Spain by squad:

My Champions League games you wanted to see: Bayern, world class side, beaten both times and only conceded 1 goal which happened to be a rubbish clearance from my GK straight to Lewadowski:

 

So, again, please stop trying to say playing a HDL means you will get slaughtered. It means nothing of the sort providing you set the rest of your team and instructions correctly.

[Gegenklaus]

2 hours ago, kurupted said:

Lol, you are playing Barcelona, show your results against top teams in Europe  If you play against a pacey Striker or wingers you get s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-e-d.

Nope, Guardiola style is not risky, in fact is very low risk, they play a slow football, just like he did in Barcelona, they pass the ball and pass the ball and wait for a breach, but if they don't find it, they just "reset" the play.

 

You guys need to understand something, there are thing we CANT simply replicate in Football Manager. One aspect is the question about Mezzalas, yes, the mezzala does stay in the half-space, but both DS and KDB dont stay in the half-space everytime, there are games that they simply can't play in the half space. The other thing is the defensive line, City away from home can play with a high defensive line, try that in FM 2019 and see what happens

The other thing, most important of all that people forget is the MATCH ENGINE. Want to have 70-75% possession ? Fine, but that means you don't create score chances. This is not FM2012 when with certain tactics you have heavy possession regarding the team your are playing. The more possession you have the less risk you play, in FM, that translates into few scoring chances.

I have played a high line with weaker sides against top sides, and I dont automatically get slaughtered. You can get absolutely anything to work if you got the right players and right setup. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat. 

You also gotta take into account that possession is calculated differently in FM than in real life. Check out @herne79 thread with his tiki-taka 4-3-3. He has plenty of passes completed and attempted and scoring lots of goals from open play. Its absolutely possible and his thread has gotten me thinking in a whole new way about FM19 and how to setup duties - because we dont have team shape anymore. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[Ivan787]

13 ore fa, kurupted ha scritto:

Nope, Guardiola style is not risky, in fact is very low risk, they play a slow football, just like he did in Barcelona, they pass the ball and pass the ball and wait for a breach, but if they don't find it, they just "reset" the play.

 

You guys need to understand something, there are thing we CANT simply replicate in Football Manager. One aspect is the question about Mezzalas, yes, the mezzala does stay in the half-space, but both DS and KDB dont stay in the half-space everytime, there are games that they simply can't play in the half space. The other thing is the defensive line, City away from home can play with a high defensive line, try that in FM 2019 and see what happens

The other thing, most important of all that people forget is the MATCH ENGINE. Want to have 70-75% possession ? Fine, but that means you don't create score chances. This is not FM2012 when with certain tactics you have heavy possession regarding the team your are playing. The more possession you have the less risk you play, in FM, that translates into few scoring chances.

Apologize me, I chase the wrong words. I didn't want to say risky but dangerous.

The Guardiola's approach need very talented players, in both mental and technical attribute. This means definitely top player. In the build-up phase, when CBs and DM pass the ball and pass the ball they have to be very confident against opponent pressing. Trying to do this approach with the wrong player could lead to lose the balle in a very dangerous zone. In my opinion is significant that against Klopp, Guardiola often found a lot of difficult in applicating his philosophy.

This just to say that Guardiola approach is based on the vital concept that you have to dominate the pitch, and your opponent in most cases will sit and wait. If you don't have the player, the squad, the "reputation" (in FM terms) to do this fundamental of his approach, it is very dangerous to applicare this game. If I look at my match I see that often my player was passing the ball and I have all 10 players in the opposite half....imagine a ball lost from Stones or Laporte there.....

[argenmik]

16 hours ago, kurupted said:

Lol, you are playing Barcelona, show your results against top teams in Europe  If you play against a pacey Striker or wingers you get s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-e-d.

Nope, Guardiola style is not risky, in fact is very low risk, they play a slow football, just like he did in Barcelona, they pass the ball and pass the ball and wait for a breach, but if they don't find it, they just "reset" the play.

It's also worth nothing that Pep has literally done this with Bayern Barca and Man City, he isnt trying to do it with Wigan and he probably couldnt. Even though you can achieve success with a high line being a weaker side it should be much harder as a weaker team.  

[herne79]

On 28/01/2019 at 11:51, kurupted said:

City away from home uses high defensive line. Try to do that in FM 2019 and you get SLAUGHTERED, period.

 

19 hours ago, kurupted said:

The other thing, most important of all that people forget is the MATCH ENGINE. Want to have 70-75% possession ? Fine, but that means you don't create score chances. This is not FM2012 when with certain tactics you have heavy possession regarding the team your are playing. The more possession you have the less risk you play, in FM, that translates into few scoring chances.

@Gegenklaus Gave me a poke here.  If you and others have been seeing such issues, that's one thing.  Saying the reason for those problems lies squarely at the door of the ME is something else entirely and incorrect.  That's not to say there aren't issues with the ME (there are) but to say things are not possible...

ok, that's an extreme example, but I'm currently averaging above 65% possession and over 700 passes a match with plenty of goals scored/chances created.

As Klaus says, having a look at my current "tiki-taka" thread may be useful.

[Pep468]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

@Gegenklaus Gave me a poke here.  If you and others have been seeing such issues, that's one thing.  Saying the reason for those problems lies squarely at the door of the ME is something else entirely and incorrect.  That's not to say there aren't issues with the ME (there are) but to say things are not possible...

ok, that's an extreme example, but I'm currently averaging above 65% possession and over 700 passes a match with plenty of goals scored/chances created.

As Klaus says, having a look at my current "tiki-taka" thread may be useful.

I’m begging you to show me the setup to achieve 900+ passes WHILST creating chances s fascinated to see how you’ve done it

[kurupted]

10 horas atrás, herne79 disse:

 

@Gegenklaus Gave me a poke here.  If you and others have been seeing such issues, that's one thing.  Saying the reason for those problems lies squarely at the door of the ME is something else entirely and incorrect.  That's not to say there aren't issues with the ME (there are) but to say things are not possible...

ok, that's an extreme example, but I'm currently averaging above 65% possession and over 700 passes a match with plenty of goals scored/chances created.

As Klaus says, having a look at my current "tiki-taka" thread may be useful.

Thats funny mate

Now show how your goals were scored, set pieces ? Free kicks ? Everybody in here knows that if you achieve 900 passes with whatever that tactic you are using: you have world class players, you play very cautious football, no risks at all.

In fact, i can achieve 900 passes in a game mate, but that means none of my player wants to do a key pass, just passing around. Like i said, show me how that 2 goals were scored.