Bringing on Subs

[Bothan Spy]

Why is it that 9 times out 10 when I bring on a sub the are 'Looking complacent/uninterested'?? Surely they should be trying their best when brought on? Really boils my pee! 

[HUNT3R]

You're the manager, so it's your job to make sure they're motivated.

[Ber-T]

Personally I find this happens when I bring on a sub when I'm winning, almost always when winning comfortably. I'll keep an eye out on players who come on while I'm drawing/losing because I'm pretty sure some come on motivated and change the game. I think it makes sense for the most part when winning comfortably, game's already won and all, but I'd personally like to see young players and players who get few appearances to react differently, it not being run of the mill stuff for them.

[WorcesterLegend]

hace 6 horas, Bothan Spy dijo:

Why is it that 9 times out 10 when I bring on a sub the are 'Looking complacent/uninterested'?? Surely they should be trying their best when brought on? Really boils my pee! 

That happens mostly because you are winning by 2 goals with less than 30 minutes left, also when the other team is way too weak to bother playing seriously, i go around that by just making the subs at 75' or later unless a player is way too exhausted

[FrazT]

I have had a couple of questionable reactions to starting a squad or reserve player in their first ever first-team match and then note that they are complacent, despite my encouragement at the start.

[DP]

20 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You're the manager, so it's your job to make sure they're motivated.

Yes, the game is always right. No questionable game mechanics, responses or systems at all

[FrazT]

20 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You're the manager, so it's your job to make sure they're motivated.

That may well be how the game is coded but to be honest, I really struggle with the logic that professional footballers cannot do their job without being "motivated" at every turn.  How many other jobs in the world have this level of constant "motivation" and the apparent collapse of their ability to do their job if they don't get it?

[MrPompey]

It may be because as manager your dynamic with the team is quite low......you likely get the same reaction at team talks. Once you are established and the squad love you I expect the players may react differently when you give them a talk before going on

[HUNT3R]

9 hours ago, DP said:

Yes, the game is always right. No questionable game mechanics, responses or systems at all

?

9 hours ago, FrazT said:

That may well be how the game is coded but to be honest, I really struggle with the logic that professional footballers cannot do their job without being "motivated" at every turn.  How many other jobs in the world have this level of constant "motivation" and the apparent collapse of their ability to do their job if they don't get it?

How many other jobs are you the equivalent of 4-0 up in a match? Some people will get complacent. The more professional ones, won't. Same in FM. That said, complacent players don't have a complete collapse of their ability.

[FrazT]

10 hours ago, MrPompey said:

It may be because as manager your dynamic with the team is quite low......you likely get the same reaction at team talks. Once you are established and the squad love you I expect the players may react differently when you give them a talk before going on

I am currently in my 7th year with the club, so don't have any issues with squad dynamics at all.  In my last game, towards the end of a successful season, I promoted a reserve to the first team in a relatively easy home game to give him some game time.  Gave the team talk, got a good positive reaction to it, gave an individual chat to the boy and told him there was no pressure on him and he was complacent!!.  Regardless of his personality, he should surely be fired up, maybe a bit nervous, but never complacent?

[borivoje213]

11 hours ago, FrazT said:

How many other jobs in the world have this level of constant "motivation" and the apparent collapse of their ability to do their job if they don't get it?

O/

[Snorks]

Perfection expected from the start, with a steady improvement thereafter

[RBKalle]

Come on... Even Balotelli, the poster-boy for overconfident and complacent tool, played with desire and drive when he was brought in as a youngster. So there's no reason for players with a more balanced personality (and also for those with much less talent) to half-ass their chance in the first team because they don't feel like making an effort.

No matter if it's a pointless cup tie against some amateurs or the garbage time of 4-0 win against the league's bottom-feeders, most youngsters should try their very best to impress the manager.

BTW, same happens with seasoned and successful veterans, with fringe players (who've just complained about the lack of football!), basically with anyone you bring in as a sub in a game you're winning or you're expected to win.
It's almost as if the game automatically set the players' motivation because "it's an easy game"... I mean, it's true some players wouldn't be bothered to give 100% in some games, but for many others it's be the chance of the season to leave their mark.

[Federico]

This is definitely one the things I don't give so much attention about (probably because I see the most of them as a waste of time) but 100% true.

The more we dig deep into interactions, the more emerge the true face of them.

[scass]

On 22/09/2018 at 16:11, HUNT3R said:

You're the manager, so it's your job to make sure they're motivated.

I think that's disingenuous if you don't mind me saying so.  I have gone through the range of instructions - including, on your advice a while ago, "I want to see good performance". It doesn't work. it seems like an automatic thing. Same as when you promote a player to the first team, he is immediately "getting frustrated at the number of opportunities in the first team". That is before there's even been a game. It would probably be better if you admitted it was something worth giving attention to, rather than stonewalling unhelpfully.  

[HUNT3R]

Just now, scass said:

I think that's disingenuous if you don't mind me saying so.  I have gone through the range of instructions - including, on your advice a while ago, "I want to see good performance". It doesn't work. it seems like an automatic thing. Same as when you promote a player to the first team, he is immediately "getting frustrated at the number of opportunities in the first team". That is before there's even been a game. It would probably be better if you admitted it was something worth giving attention to, rather than stonewalling unhelpfully.  

I generally have no problem motivating players. Obviously though, if you are 4-0 up, it's going to be hard getting a player fired up. No reason they can't perform though. If you have specific situations where it doesn't seem logical, then please report it.

[scass]

12 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

The more professional ones, won't.

That simply isn't true. And you know it. You can bring on players who are "driven" or with high determination. You can bring on a world class player.  Or a seasoned pro. Same result. It actually doesn't make a lot of difference but if giving young players game time to develop them is important in the game - one of the best things about the game IMHO, then maybe this needs to be ironed out.

[scass]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

I generally have no problem motivating players. Obviously though, if you are 4-0 up, it's going to be hard getting a player fired up. No reason they can't perform though. If you have specific situations where it doesn't seem logical, then please report it.

Specific situation? Every time.  Are you telling me that it doesn't happen to you? Because if you are, i don't believe you. Get honest.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, scass said:

Specific situation? Every time.  Are you telling me that it doesn't happen to you? Because if you are, i don't believe you. Get honest.

So every sub you ever bring on is complacent? Mine definitely aren't. If you read my post back, you'd see that there are situations you're going to struggle to NOT have them complacent, but they're specific situations.

[scass]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

So every sub you ever bring on is complacent? Mine definitely aren't. If you read my post back, you'd see that there are situations you're going to struggle to NOT have them complacent, but they're specific situations.

If we're ahead in a game by more than two goals, yes. if you read the thread back, you'll see we are talking about a specific situation. But don't sweat it, it's an annoyance. If you can't see a problem, there isn't one. You're the expert.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, scass said:

If we're ahead in a game by more than two goals, yes. if you read the thread back, you'll see we are talking about a specific situation. But don't sweat it, it's an annoyance. If you can't see a problem, there isn't one. You're the expert.

I'd drop the attitude. The OP just said 9/10 times they are complacent with no more info. They aren't.

Going back to your post, if you are ahead by more than 2 goals that IS a specific situation, so depending on what you're saying to the subs there might be something to report, there might not. I never have issues at being 2-0 up, but rather 3 or more ahead. In those situations, I can understand why there would be though. @FrazT so far has had a decent example (also a specific case), although I'm not even sure that sort of thinking is in FM yet, though it should be. In his case, I wouldn't have used No Pressure, but rather Have Faith, although I suspect it wouldn't have changed the overall picture too much and it doesn't take away from the point he was making.

[scass]

Drop the attitude? Wow.

[KingCanary]

I do have a problem with youngsters looking complacent on their debuts- I like to  believe a young player getting his first taste of first team football would be looking keen or pretty much anything other than complacent or uninterested even if we were 4-0 up.

[FrazT]

Unless there is an injury, I use my subs between 60-75 mins and I have often noticed that they are complacent, an attitude I find difficult to understand, regardless of the score.  Players who are not starters should surely be desperate to get on and prove to the manager that they should have been chosen in the starting 11.  It should be irrelevant if the score is 3-0 or 1-2, they should be wanting to do well and should not need extra motivation.  I repeat my earlier point that they are doing the job that they are extremely well paid for doing and whilst some motivation from the bench is reasonable, I find it hard to believe the level of complacency exhibited by subs.

[KingCanary]

11 minutes ago, FrazT said:

Unless there is an injury, I use my subs between 60-75 mins and I have often noticed that they are complacent, an attitude I find difficult to understand, regardless of the score.  Players who are not starters should surely be desperate to get on and prove to the manager that they should have been chosen in the starting 11.  It should be irrelevant if the score is 3-0 or 1-2, they should be wanting to do well and should not need extra motivation.  I repeat my earlier point that they are doing the job that they are extremely well paid for doing and whilst some motivation from the bench is reasonable, I find it hard to believe the level of complacency exhibited by subs.

I can see how players could be complacent- if they are being sent on with 15 minutes left to see out a 3 or 4 nil win then it isn't exactly meaningful action for them. However it seems to be the default, regardless of personality. 

[FrazT]

Just now, KingCanary said:

I can see how players could be complacent- if they are being sent on with 15 minutes left to see out a 3 or 4 nil win then it isn't exactly meaningful action for them. However it seems to be the default, regardless of personality. 

Maybe this is true, but would the default approach not be to do well and make an impact, regardless of the score or how meaningful the game was?

[KingCanary]

4 minutes ago, FrazT said:

Maybe this is true, but would the default approach not be to do well and make an impact, regardless of the score or how meaningful the game was?

Agree that should be the default. I can see the occasional player coming on and feeling complacent at that point but not to the extent it happens (certainly in 17 anyway).

[HUNT3R]

I'm curious about 2 things -

1 - what's the overall squad body language when this sub comes on, say at 3-0 or similar?

2 - what do you tell the sub when you bring him on?

[scass]

54 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm curious about 2 things -

1 - what's the overall squad body language when this sub comes on, say at 3-0 or similar?

2 - what do you tell the sub when you bring him on?

1. The overall squad body language is an interesting thing to raise. It's usually extremely good or perfect on the bench if we're winning, while on the pitch it tends towards a majority motivated and a few calm or composed. As @FrazT said though, you would expect a young players to want to impress. If this was an indicator of a lack of professionalism and only occurred with some players, then it would be easier to give it some credence. But at the moment it is a default.

2. As I said in an earlier post, I have used all the possibilities - "I have faith" usually "happy", then on the pitch  complacency. "No pressure" - relaxed, then complacency. "Want to see a good performance" - reaction can be deep in thought, or happy, or motivated. Two minutes on the pitch, and we get complacency.

In the end, though, I think we're all talking about something that is down to lazy thinking, not a game wrecking problem. 

[FrazT]

To summarise: This module needs some tuning to get it better- it is not a major issue, but it is not right at the moment.

[MrPompey]

13 hours ago, FrazT said:

I am currently in my 7th year with the club, so don't have any issues with squad dynamics at all.  In my last game, towards the end of a successful season, I promoted a reserve to the first team in a relatively easy home game to give him some game time.  Gave the team talk, got a good positive reaction to it, gave an individual chat to the boy and told him there was no pressure on him and he was complacent!!.  Regardless of his personality, he should surely be fired up, maybe a bit nervous, but never complacent?

Paul Pogba springs to mind

Yeah, I'm looking for potential reasons so 7 years knocks my theory out of the park. It would be good to get comments from the SI module expert. These are probably  now best raised as bugs for any chance of fix but I suspect there are many modules now on the list that need some rework

[themadsheep2001]

6 minutes ago, FrazT said:

To summarise: This module needs some tuning to get it better- it is not a major issue, but it is not right at the moment.

I'd go along with this, I think overall it's alright, but perhaps a little too easy to be complacent after a lead 

[RBKalle]

Reasonable, standard reactions for being subbed in while enjoying a solid lead:

Key Player: Complacent ("the game is in the bag already, I can show off"), Uninterested ("the game is won, why should I bother?") even Frustrated/Furious ("a star like me not starting, and now I'm subbed in like a nobody!"

Squad Player/Rotation: Normal/Composed or Motivated ("I'll show the manager I deserve more first team football"). Frustrated works too, if he feels unappreciated.

Backup: Normal/Composed or Motivated ("I'd better take this rare chance"). Negative mindset is ok only if the backup if Unhappy and/or Transfer listed

Youngster: Nervous or very Nervous are a prefectly acceptable reaction. Motivated too. But there's no way any young player can be Complacent/Uninterested in his first forays into "real" football.

[MrPompey]

8 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Reasonable, standard reactions for being subbed in while enjoying a solid lead:

Key Player: Complacent ("the game is in the bag already, I can show off"), Uninterested ("the game is won, why should I bother?") even Frustrated/Furious ("a star like me not starting, and now I'm subbed in like a nobody!"

Squad Player/Rotation: Normal/Composed or Motivated ("I'll show the manager I deserve more first team football"). Frustrated works too, if he feels unappreciated.

Backup: Normal/Composed or Motivated ("I'd better take this rare chance"). Negative mindset is ok only if the backup if Unhappy and/or Transfer listed

Youngster: Nervous or very Nervous are a prefectly acceptable reaction. Motivated too. But there's no way any young player can be Complacent/Uninterested in his first forays into "real" football.

I understand exactly what you are saying but player attributes will impact this including professionalism, ambition, determination morale etc

I think in the modern world the modern footballer has a much larger ego than previously and expects to be pampered and for some they do have attitude issues.

I might like to see some flair players who are brought on as a sub when the game is virtually won showboating / nutmeging etc