Long and mid range shots in the new ME. Let's talk about it.

[Naor5563]

Hello all,

After days of playing FM18 , I noticed a real concern in the ME which bothers me a lot : Long shots [ and free kicks as well]. Let's start with the fact that it's not really matter what my instructions is, my players will keep consistently shot idiotic unjustified \ mad shots. I have tried a lot of tactic things in order to reduce the amount of these shot, start with ''shoot less often'' to any player on the pitch and ''work ball into box'' , ''low tempo'' , ''look for overlap'' etc etc , and everything I think should reduce the amount of these long shots -  without actual success. So I don't find my tactical approach as helpful as in previous FM's.

My players understanding is very high, dressing room atmosphere is very high and tactic familiarity is very high. And in this case of long shots, I do not speak only about my team , I speak about my opponents as well.

 

Decisions - First I thought it's something to do with my players mental attributes - but since I'm playing in La-Liga and Premier league which full with the best players in the world, It doesn't seems odd.

Angels - Players take long shots in a lot of different ways in reality, but they do have a common sense when they should not take it due to angels and physical prevention. In the new ME, it seems like the players has no ''thinking'' behind those long shots, as they keep taking them sometimes from impossible angels [physiology] which we rarely seen in real football, even in lower leagues.

Right foot / Left foot - After looking into this issue, I have seen a lot of cases which a player will take an impossible or low probability long shot with his absolutely weaker foot even tough he asked not to. And even if he's not asked  - simple logic will tell he has no reason to do so [which I think not always has something to do with attributes]. players have brain. [ and in my case, at least 12 ''decisions''].

Unrealistic choices - Even when my players asked specifically not to shoot from long range, they most of the time would prefer the long shots over simple pass to his team mate [ As he asked to do in my tactic].

Corners / advert sign - One of the most annoying things - The directness of the long shots. Iv'e seen a lot of open long shots which the player shoots to the corner or to the advert signs , dozens of meters from the goal. The number of the times seeing this kind of shots in real life is very low, especially not in the top 10th leagues in Europe. I find this thing as a complete mess.

No difference between players - I can't find real difference from a player with high long shots attributes as 15-20 to players with low 10-15 [ in terms of the best leagues ]. except from the best players sometimes scoring from these opportunities, most of the shots will go miles away no matter if you called CR7, Messi , Gareth Barry or Darwin Machis. 

Free kicks - Seen a goal from Free kick became very rare for me. anyone else thinks? again, I can't feel a real difference is FK between a high attributes players to low attributes players.

 

 

The real problem is - that me, the human manager who understands the real problem with the long shots engine, will prefer to close down the opposition wingers and wing backs as their balls leads to a very dangerous chances, and leave the opposition MC's / AMC's Etc etc to shoot from distance when ever and how much they want, because the percentage of these long shots going in is so low - that I will prefer to take the ''risks''. as for attack - we just kind of have to play hardcore flanks football to creat real CCC. Shots from outside the area are just useless.

 

I find it really unrealistic and down graded if I compare to the previous FM ,  and I would like to hear your opinions / Tactical recommendations / problems.

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[zigaliro]

I agree with you. Even if players have alot of support around him, they will sometimes still take idiotic long shots.

[Khazard]

If a player has no one to pass to with a decent success chance (this comes from their mental stats vision, decisions etc) and TI/PI settings and their bravery is not high enough for them to try and dribble past they will just shoot at goal rather than stand there be closed down and tackled.

[shadster]

Talked about it on another thread. I play with 3 players on mildfield. One Anchor Man, one Roaming Playmaker or Segundo Volante, depending on games and player I want to play, and then a Advance Playmaker. No matter who plays at RPM or Segundo Volante, the player makes a lot of long shots per game. Even if he doesn't have the ppm to shoot often. I set de PI to shoot less, but no effect. And most of  the shots are more close to the corner flag than to the goal. And what is more irritant, is that the players doesn't shoot because they have no more options. Very often they shoot, despite having much better options around. This only happen since 18.2 update. Talked about it on the bugs section, didnt have reply.

 

[Sampsiceramos]

I'm unconvinced that there's an issue with when players choose to attempt long shots, or even necessarily with the overall conversion rate, but players with high shooting, mental, etc stats patently do not hit the target at an acceptable rate right now. I'm not saying a player with 20 Long Shots should be banging in a goal from 40 yards once per match, but they should bloody well be forcing a save or two off clean opportunities like Pogba or Nainggolan do in real life. It's absolutely ****ing aggravating to watch world-class players hoof uncontested long-range efforts 45 degrees off target with greater frequency than they'll force a save.

[herne79]

12 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

Tactical recommendations

Therein lies an issue.

We shouldn't need to look for tactical recommendations because (apparently) there already is one in game - it's a Team Instruction called "Work Ball Into Box".  But the issue is a disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

The perception - probably in part at least due to the instruction's label - is that it's some kind of "magic button" that automatically stops players taking pot shots at goal and so will pass the ball around more instead.

To an extent that's true, but in order for players to look to pass the ball instead of taking a shot, they need to have a player available to make the pass to.  That can only come from other tactical settings, but especially from player roles and duties.  eg., lets imagine we're using a 4-1-2-3DM Wide formation, with 2 x Central Midfielders with a support duty, 2 wingers at AML/R and a Poacher.  Your Poacher keeps taking long shots so you (quite naturally) add in the TI "Work Ball Into Box".  But he still keeps taking long shots.  How come?  Because he still hasn't got anybody to pass to.  That's the disconnect between the perception of how this TI supposedly "works" and the reality of it working.

The same kind of thing happens if you give a player a PI of "Shoot Less" or, at the other end of the scale, tell your defenders to "Play Out of Defence".

If that kind of connecting up the disconnects on the tactics screen in game could somehow be added by SI (and yes I have raised it), personally I feel that could take tactical creation to a whole new level - especially for new or inexperienced players.  It might also make the Tactics Forum a bit quieter .

So, Naor5563, if you are looking for tactical recommendations, think about the less obvious issues first such as player attributes, PPMs and your chosen roles / duties, and think about how such players move and interact before firing up instructions like "Shoot Less" or "Work Ball Into Box".

[shadster]

41 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Therein lies an issue.

We shouldn't need to look for tactical recommendations because (apparently) there already is one in game - it's a Team Instruction called "Work Ball Into Box".  But the issue is a disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

The perception - probably in part at least due to the instruction's label - is that it's some kind of "magic button" that automatically stops players taking pot shots at goal and so will pass the ball around more instead.

To an extent that's true, but in order for players to look to pass the ball instead of taking a shot, they need to have a player available to make the pass to.  That can only come from other tactical settings, but especially from player roles and duties.  eg., lets imagine we're using a 4-1-2-3DM Wide formation, with 2 x Central Midfielders with a support duty, 2 wingers at AML/R and a Poacher.  Your Poacher keeps taking long shots so you (quite naturally) add in the TI "Work Ball Into Box".  But he still keeps taking long shots.  How come?  Because he still hasn't got anybody to pass to.  That's the disconnect between the perception of how this TI supposedly "works" and the reality of it working.

The same kind of thing happens if you give a player a PI of "Shoot Less" or, at the other end of the scale, tell your defenders to "Play Out of Defence".

If that kind of connecting up the disconnects on the tactics screen in game could somehow be added by SI (and yes I have raised it), personally I feel that could take tactical creation to a whole new level - especially for new or inexperienced players.  It might also make the Tactics Forum a bit quieter .

So, Naor5563, if you are looking for tactical recommendations, think about the less obvious issues first such as player attributes, PPMs and your chosen roles / duties, and think about how such players move and interact before firing up instructions like "Shoot Less" or "Work Ball Into Box".

I will leave here my tactic, not for asking for advice, but to find if the problem is the roles and dutys, not the update. And the tactic could have issues, as I am not great at this. I play with a Segundo Volante often, as I said on mt previous post. My RPM or segundo volante, after 18.2 take a lot of shots per game. Lack of better options? It's not what I see most of times. I had Work ball into box on TI, but recently removed it as I didn't see any difference, specially after update. The quality of shots, the % of shots on goal reduced a lot. Maybe my setup was more pre 18.2 friendly, I don't know. I continue to win a lot, but things like this are reducing the fun. Other example is that kind of games, 30 shots to 1 of the opponent. No matter what changes I do in the game, the patterns are always the same, and pre update, I felt that I could do the difference in the game (for good or worse). But I can be wrong, and be someting different than the update.

[Sunstrikuuu]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

But he still keeps taking long shots.  How come?  Because he still hasn't got anybody to pass to. 

People might reasonably ask why the poacher - who sits on the shoulder of the last defender looking to break the defensive line, and whose focus on scoring goals is so extreme that he rarely offerse much help in constructing moves, preferring instead to remain central and sniff out opportunities in and around the box - is putting himself in positions to play attacking passes into the box, then firing long shots when those passes are not available.  They might think that their players would be taking less shots overall if they used their possession attempting to create chances for the chance finisher, rather than turning that player into an auxiliary playmaker.  After all, if they wanted a player that's the focal point of attacking moves and is required to both score and create goals, with a secondary role of laying off passes or crosses to teammates, there's already a role for that;  likewise one who spearheads attacks and crafts out chances for himself and others; likewise one who drops deep into space and holds up the ball before supplying linking passes to teammakes, looking to fashion chances for himself in addition to playing others in.  Presumably they've chosen the poacher specifically because he won't do those things, and will stay in the box to provide advanced passing options.

[Naor5563]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

Therein lies an issue.

We shouldn't need to look for tactical recommendations because (apparently) there already is one in game - it's a Team Instruction called "Work Ball Into Box".  But the issue is a disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

The perception - probably in part at least due to the instruction's label - is that it's some kind of "magic button" that automatically stops players taking pot shots at goal and so will pass the ball around more instead.

To an extent that's true, but in order for players to look to pass the ball instead of taking a shot, they need to have a player available to make the pass to.  That can only come from other tactical settings, but especially from player roles and duties.  eg., lets imagine we're using a 4-1-2-3DM Wide formation, with 2 x Central Midfielders with a support duty, 2 wingers at AML/R and a Poacher.  Your Poacher keeps taking long shots so you (quite naturally) add in the TI "Work Ball Into Box".  But he still keeps taking long shots.  How come?  Because he still hasn't got anybody to pass to.  That's the disconnect between the perception of how this TI supposedly "works" and the reality of it working.

The same kind of thing happens if you give a player a PI of "Shoot Less" or, at the other end of the scale, tell your defenders to "Play Out of Defence".

If that kind of connecting up the disconnects on the tactics screen in game could somehow be added by SI (and yes I have raised it), personally I feel that could take tactical creation to a whole new level - especially for new or inexperienced players.  It might also make the Tactics Forum a bit quieter .

So, Naor5563, if you are looking for tactical recommendations, think about the less obvious issues first such as player attributes, PPMs and your chosen roles / duties, and think about how such players move and interact before firing up instructions like "Shoot Less" or "Work Ball Into Box".

Good morning

 

Appreciate your comment. Even tough you chose to react just to one point of my thread. I Know I'm not the best manager around, But I do think I see my players often choosing to take long shots when they have absolutely free team mate to pass to [ and my tactic ask them to pass all the time ]. But as a matter of fact - I'm trying consistently to find the tactical solution to my team's long shots problem and it's not the main issue of this thread.

But as I mentioned, I'm not speaking only about my team, I'm speaking about my opponent as well.  And it's not only about a player taking long shots, it's about how much long shots per game and the directness of these shots and the impossible angels of these shots [ physiologically] , The rate of these long shots per game hitting the target or being a good chance compared to reality etc etc. 

Look at my final phrase - that's my 'bottom of line' problem, not my team's performance as a team.

[Naor5563]

6 hours ago, Sampsiceramos said:

I'm unconvinced that there's an issue with when players choose to attempt long shots, or even necessarily with the overall conversion rate, but players with high shooting, mental, etc stats patently do not hit the target at an acceptable rate right now. I'm not saying a player with 20 Long Shots should be banging in a goal from 40 yards once per match, but they should bloody well be forcing a save or two off clean opportunities like Pogba or Nainggolan do in real life. It's absolutely ****ing aggravating to watch world-class players hoof uncontested long-range efforts 45 degrees off target with greater frequency than they'll force a save.

Absolutely agree with that, maybe the most annoying thing.

[herne79]

7 hours ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

People might reasonably ask why the poacher - who sits on the shoulder of the last defender looking to break the defensive line, and whose focus on scoring goals is so extreme that he rarely offerse much help in constructing moves, preferring instead to remain central and sniff out opportunities in and around the box - is putting himself in positions to play attacking passes into the box, then firing long shots when those passes are not available.  They might think that their players would be taking less shots overall if they used their possession attempting to create chances for the chance finisher, rather than turning that player into an auxiliary playmaker.  After all, if they wanted a player that's the focal point of attacking moves and is required to both score and create goals, with a secondary role of laying off passes or crosses to teammates, there's already a role for that;  likewise one who spearheads attacks and crafts out chances for himself and others; likewise one who drops deep into space and holds up the ball before supplying linking passes to teammakes, looking to fashion chances for himself in addition to playing others in.  Presumably they've chosen the poacher specifically because he won't do those things, and will stay in the box to provide advanced passing options.

and @kandersson @kozmik @Sampsiceramos (as you all upvoted):- yup fully aware of that, but you're missing my point.  I was purposely giving an extreme example of an isolated striker in order to get across the point that simply adding "Work Ball Into Box" is not always the magic button solution which will suddenly stop players shooting from all angles .

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

Good morning

 

Appreciate your comment. Even tough you chose to react just to one point of my thread. I Know I'm not the best manager around, But I do think I see my players often choosing to take long shots when they have absolutely free team mate to pass to [ and my tactic ask them to pass all the time ]. But as a matter of fact - I'm trying consistently to find the tactical solution to my team's long shots problem and it's not the main issue of this thread.

But as I mentioned, I'm not speaking only about my team, I'm speaking about my opponent as well.  And it's not only about a player taking long shots, it's about how much long shots per game and the directness of these shots and the impossible angels of these shots [ physiologically] , The rate of these long shots per game hitting the target or being a good chance compared to reality etc etc. 

Look at my final phrase - that's my 'bottom of line' problem, not my team's performance as a team.

I appreciate it's not the main issue of the thread and that I chose to react to just one point.  You did ask for tactical recommendations though.

And as far as tactical recommendations go, my point is that simply looking at the "obvious" solutions of tactical settings such as Work Ball Into Box or Shoot Less may not be the answer. 

For example, player attributes such as Teamwork can play a big part - a player with low Teamwork may be less inclined to pass the ball and take a shot even when there might be a better passing option.  Or perhaps he'll make a poor Decision due to the relevant attribute.  Or his Composure may be low so he'll rush into doing something.  Or he doesn't like Pressure so he'll panic.  Or perhaps the players around the ball carrier don't have good off the ball movement so fail to find sufficient space to be available for a pass.  Or perhaps he has a PPM which will encourage him to shoot.

And then there are chosen roles and duties.  Do they compliment each other sufficiently?  Do they provide sufficient support?  Do they move sufficiently well to help find or create pockets of space?

Other tactical settings will also play a part.  Perhaps a high Tempo is being used.  Perhaps a Mentality that sets a high tempo by default is being used.  Perhaps a Mentality that asks advanced players to play more directly is being used.  Perhaps settings are being used which may restrict player movement.

This is all why I deliberately gave a somewhat silly example of an isolated striker to show that simply ticking the "obvious" work ball into box TI isn't necessarily the answer .

@shadster not sure if any of that may also give you some ideas?

[Naor5563]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

I appreciate it's not the main issue of the thread and that I chose to react to just one point.  You did ask for tactical recommendations though.

And as far as tactical recommendations go, my point is that simply looking at the "obvious" solutions of tactical settings such as Work Ball Into Box or Shoot Less may not be the answer. 

For example, player attributes such as Teamwork can play a big part - a player with low Teamwork may be less inclined to pass the ball and take a shot even when there might be a better passing option.  Or perhaps he'll make a poor Decision due to the relevant attribute.  Or his Composure may be low so he'll rush into doing something.  Or he doesn't like Pressure so he'll panic.  Or perhaps the players around the ball carrier don't have good off the ball movement so fail to find sufficient space to be available for a pass.  Or perhaps he has a PPM which will encourage him to shoot.

And then there are chosen roles and duties.  Do they compliment each other sufficiently?  Do they provide sufficient support?  Do they move sufficiently well to help find or create pockets of space?

Other tactical settings will also play a part.  Perhaps a high Tempo is being used.  Perhaps a Mentality that sets a high tempo by default is being used.  Perhaps a Mentality that asks advanced players to play more directly is being used.  Perhaps settings are being used which may restrict player movement.

This is all why I deliberately gave a somewhat silly example of an isolated striker to show that simply ticking the "obvious" work ball into box TI isn't necessarily the answer .

@shadster not sure if any of that may also give you some ideas?

 You are right, and i do need to improve my side. My players probably lacks the mental requirments of playing good passing game. I do trying a lot of things to find a way to make them do the things i want to see. ( and still, I'm not bad. The results are pretty fine ). 

 

Meanwhile, I don't know what is the instructions the AI managers is giving to their players and somehow the AI teams shoot a lot from distance as well ( part of it because of my team closing them well and make them take these shots ). But since the percentage going in / being a dangerous shot  is so low, I will always close down the opponents full backs and wingers ( probanly their all attacking key chances plays because most of the goals coming from flanks { it's realistic I think } ) while playing narrow and deep defence line - and force them to shoot from distance, which rarely be a good shot so it's really easy to beat the opponent this way.

Since I'm doing it against very good teams such Barcelona and Real Madrid and even players like Messi or CR7 ( Or every good la liga players ) - they take long shots which not being effective in the way it should be ( that's not real - because in real life - if those players  ( and even good players from top 10th leagues in Europe ) will be unmarked 25 meters from the goal they will 85% will shot a key shot ) . In the game they just shooting wierdly / madly dozens of meters from the goal, even more close to the corner flag than the goal. ( ofcourse they will be hitting the target from time to time ).

 So my point is that the uneffectivness of long shots make our defensive work being an easy task. Just let them shoot, who ever they are, and it will be OK. 

 

[kandersson]

10 hours ago, herne79 said:

and @kandersson @kozmik @Sampsiceramos (as you all upvoted):- yup fully aware of that, but you're missing my point.  I was purposely giving an extreme example of an isolated striker in order to get across the point that simply adding "Work Ball Into Box" is not always the magic button solution which will suddenly stop players shooting from all angles .

I upvoted that post simply because it described very well the issues i often have with the role of poacher or advanced forward, especially when I try to make them the main goal scorer and more advanced threat (as per role description) and become main playmaker and assist-man instead. My very personal opinion on long shots: they're the devil in FM and have been for years, having a player with that PPM is a nightmare, sadly the 'Tries (fails?) to beat offside trap' PPM has become the same but that's for another thread I guess.

[Sampsiceramos]

 

14 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

 You are right, and i do need to improve my side. My players probably lacks the mental requirments of playing good passing game. I do trying a lot of things to find a way to make them do the things i want to see. ( and still, I'm not bad. The results are pretty fine ). 

 

Meanwhile, I don't know what is the instructions the AI managers is giving to their players and somehow the AI teams shoot a lot from distance as well ( part of it because of my team closing them well and make them take these shots ). But since the percentage going in / being a dangerous shot  is so low, I will always close down the opponents full backs and wingers ( probanly their all attacking key chances plays because most of the goals coming from flanks { it's realistic I think } ) while playing narrow and deep defence line - and force them to shoot from distance, which rarely be a good shot so it's really easy to beat the opponent this way.

Since I'm doing it against very good teams such Barcelona and Real Madrid and even players like Messi or CR7 ( Or every good la liga players ) - they take long shots which not being effective in the way it should be ( that's not real - because in real life - if those players  ( and even good players from top 10th leagues in Europe ) will be unmarked 25 meters from the goal they will 85% will shot a key shot ) . In the game they just shooting wierdly / madly dozens of meters from the goal, even more close to the corner flag than the goal. ( ofcourse they will be hitting the target from time to time ).

 So my point is that the uneffectivness of long shots make our defensive work being an easy task. Just let them shoot, who ever they are, and it will be OK. 

 

The bolded part here really resonates with me and is part of what drives me absolutely up the wall about the current ME. In the real world, it's a perfectly viable strategy for a manager to create good chances via cutbacks to the top of the box. It's one of the ways you punish a team for leaving space in front of the defense. In the real world, teams have to respect that a ball driven wide and to the byline is potentially deadly if it gets cut back to a deep midfielder. In the real world, teams have to respect that you can't just leave CR7/Messi/Dybala/Robben in miles of space; you have to step up and close them down or odds are they'll **** one into the top corner sooner rather than later.

But in FM18? It just isn't the case, and it has the double-whammy enjoyment-killing effect of making defending too simple and breaking down underdogs disproportionately difficult for the player - something that could arguably be fixed at least in the latter case by disallowing the completely ridiculous formations AI managers will currently field against high-reputation sides. Even then, however, there's still just something fundamentally grating about what ought to be a high-quality pattern of play being a downright useless one.

[rdbayly]

The forum is scattered with threads on the issue of long shot prevalence and their astonishingly poor quality. Much of the advice given on this thread is logical and I agree with. The problem is when you apply it to your tactic it makes zero difference. Believe me I've tried the lot:

- Ensuring that there are sufficient players in support of the offending players by choosing balanced and complimentary roles and duties

- Playing at lower mentalities and tempos to ensure that players do not rush

- Setting up a club DNA which places priority on teamwork, decisions, off the ball, and composure (I only sign players with high attributes in these areas to reduce poor long shots)

 

I think the issue is twofold: 

1) Player intelligence is dreadful - something SI tried to address in the latest patch by improving on ball decisions (to be fair I have noticed improved assist numbers from deeper creators)

2) AI tactics - as the previous posts have highlighted, it is simply too easy to park the bus, defend deep and narrow, then lump it forward for a goal on the counter.

 

 

 

[haffaz77]

The fact that even AI Teams doing it a lot , shows that there is an Issue with the long Shots .. And it really annoys me. Barcelona having an average of 11 Long shots in my save .. now dont tell me they are not intelligent enough to pass   Oh well . It is as it has always been in here . If an issue cant be fixed = pretent it never happened ...  

When i see players like Iniesta, taking shots from 25-30 Meters , and those shots crossing the goal line next to the Corner flag ... it makes me wanna puke . And again .. I'm talking about AI teams .

 

Another Example .. Man City !!!!! vs  Crystal Palace  . 5-2  ... and Man City had a ridiculous amount of 19 Long shots .... cmon ????

[fidelitywars]

Certainly agree with the majority of posts here; there does appear to be a significant issue with decision making and long shots, which in turn creates one-dimensional football and rewards the staggeringly negative, bus-parking tactics so keenly employed by the AI.

In Italy, the below formations are hugely popular; not in itself a problem but a huge obstacle if playmakers frequently shoot despite better options and long shots are a blunt offensive weapon.

Of course, tactical issues could amplify the issues with long shots but I certainly feel that there is are underlying problems and hope that SI investigate with a view to adjusting, as from my experience, the latest patch has definitely exacerbated these issues, which is making the game a fairly tedious, joyless experience.

[Sampsiceramos]

The above post adeptly eludicates part of what's causing the problem. I think we all realize that underdog teams tend to park the bus, so to speak, against their betters, but what "parking the bus" implies in real life and what "parking the bus" implies in FM18 seems to be two very different things - particularly the part where AI managers will have two fullbacks on defensive duties (who, hilariously, are often the only wide players at all in the first place) that basically never cross the halfway line, and the low mentality leaves them with 50% or more possession unless you close down high because they simply pass it around the back for ages before hoofing it upfield.

I hate to sound like a Negative Nancy here, but if I'm ManU and Anderlecht are lining up against me in a Defensive 3-4-2-1 DM in a bloody preseason friendly, something is utterly ****ed. I can respect Sheepshaggers AFC from the Vanarama Southwest pulling that on me in the FA Cup - hell, I can even applaud it - but continental competition-level teams should not be doing it, and certainly not in meaningless preseason games. Caution should be expected, but a complete refusal to so much as begin to play football, even from good sides, is entirely unrealistic.

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Sampsiceramos said:

The above post adeptly eludicates part of what's causing the problem. I think we all realize that underdog teams tend to park the bus, so to speak, against their betters, but what "parking the bus" implies in real life and what "parking the bus" implies in FM18 seems to be two very different things - particularly the part where AI managers will have two fullbacks on defensive duties (who, hilariously, are often the only wide players at all in the first place) that basically never cross the halfway line, and the low mentality leaves them with 50% or more possession unless you close down high because they simply pass it around the back for ages before hoofing it upfield.

I hate to sound like a Negative Nancy here, but if I'm ManU and Anderlecht are lining up against me in a Defensive 3-4-2-1 DM in a bloody preseason friendly, something is utterly ****ed. I can respect Sheepshaggers AFC from the Vanarama Southwest pulling that on me in the FA Cup - hell, I can even applaud it - but continental competition-level teams should not be doing it, and certainly not in meaningless preseason games. Caution should be expected, but a complete refusal to so much as begin to play football, even from good sides, is entirely unrealistic.

If a team is being defensive and keeping the ball in their own half without you pressuring them, it is your own fault really. Actually, you are not responding at all how you should. You can either push up and pressure them really high to make them hoof the ball earlier, or you can drop deeper and keep the ball yourself and try to force them out, and at the same time stop turning the ball over so easily.

Also, why should Anderlecht not set up defensively against you in pre-season? If I play a stronger team in a preseason friendly it is always because I want to test out something defensively. Why else would I do so? Likewise, I will play a weaker but not terrible side if I want to practise breaking defensive sides down. And terrible sides just for fitness and moral. I have only ever had an AI side be super negative against me when I was overwhelming favourites.

[Sampsiceramos]

15 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

If a team is being defensive and keeping the ball in their own half without you pressuring them, it is your own fault really. Actually, you are not responding at all how you should. You can either push up and pressure them really high to make them hoof the ball earlier, or you can drop deeper and keep the ball yourself and try to force them out, 

Which is exactly why I said "unless you close down high" - the fact that it's counterable doesn't mean that the pattern of play isn't unrealistic. How often do you see Stoke come to WHL/Old Trafford/etc and neatly pass the ball around their backline until pressured? Never - it's too risky. They keep the play far away from their own box and then retreat into their own half quickly as soon as possession is lost - but they don't pass the ball around at the back for ages.

Edit: And there's a marked difference between "setting up defensively" (say something like a 4-5-1 DM with a pretty conservative mentality that looks to hit people on the counter) and "literally digging a trench in your own box and filling it with 9 players for 90 minutes". Teams of Anderlecht's calibre will do the former, but must say I have very rarely seen them do the latter, even in tense European games against big sides.

[Naor5563]

The pattern to win tough games against minor teams which "park their bus" is trying to create spaces / lunch ball into box /patiently play possesion football and try to brake their shape / shoot from distance ( teams which use deep defensive line are more exposed for long shots ). Since shots from distance are most of the time will go closer to the corner flag that the net - it makes the defensive duties much more easier because one pattern is almost fully disabled. For the AI and for us. 

This is the main problem.

[Svenc]

On 28.12.2017 at 00:12, herne79 said:

If that kind of connecting up the disconnects on the tactics screen in game could somehow be added by SI (and yes I have raised it), personally I feel that could take tactical creation to a whole new level - especially for new or inexperienced players.  It might also make the Tactics Forum a bit quieter .

I would be for it if:

a) this was optional!

b) would also help to improve the AI. Because if AI could, they wouldn't open any threads on "long shots" (or anything), no less as AI simply "operates". If any of their appraoches would lead to additional long shots (and some absolutely does!), they wouldn't register, and try to fix it. They would just run with it, wash rinse repeat. Which is why you oft see relegation fodder hovering around their 15-20 shots needed on average to score a goal. Despite it being relatively easy to have somewhat half decent shot conversion rates in particular when you're just promoted, as all teams try to attack you from the off. For the bulk of the season, AI in such a position however view themselves as the "outsiders", further pronounced by losing a few, so just keep half their side glued behind the ball. Most attacking moves, if not intercepted, thus either end into a) easy interceptions b) set pieces at best or c) isolated players pushed into poor shots -- thus the long-term 5% shot conversion is created and displayed in the team report statistics screen of AI...

Otherwise, magic buttons aren't football, and the game outside of remaining UI issues tactically rewards fairly basic team sports stuff as it is imo. The perception of "work ball into box" being a magic button dropping long shots just like that would be a problem even if it would adjust player positioning all at once, no less as you will never have fully control, and in real football, even Barcelona at their most tiki-taka take a good 30% of their attempts from range, which is likely taken into account when coding the thing. Player's aren't robots, the game isn't a fanatasy (though it utterly struggles to provide such benchmarks) Some decent stuff in terms of ME and AI tactics raised in here too though! In a competitive match, you never see a side keeping both backs glued to the backline for the bulk of a match. In FM, that's been the "default" modus operandi of any "defensive" AI decision very quickly -- which should make it, and makes it so, a little harder to simply overrun such a side upon intercepting their moves/attacks. If it's paired with a narrow formation where the only wide players are the backs, it's mostly just silly though. And it's either way, a tad too extreme all in all.

[Guest]

The way I see this whole question is quite simple. It may also be wrong. But here's how I see it:

 

Unlike every single team in real life, no team in this game realizes that it's actually possible to play the ball back to midfield from the final third, regroup a bit and try again. The AI simply isn't smart enough for this. So, what happens is this: your team gets into the final third. The way forward is blocked, and there is no good pass to be played. Here, in this situation, your player will opt for the long shot, no matter what his instructions are and no matter how good he is. In real life, he would pass the ball back into midfield or even into the defense, but this never happens in the game.

 

Incidentally, this is also why you never see Barcelona-type possession statistics in the game. Even the Barcelona players go for the long shot even if it's stupid.

[lloyd1990]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

The way I see this whole question is quite simple. It may also be wrong. But here's how I see it:

 

Unlike every single team in real life, no team in this game realizes that it's actually possible to play the ball back to midfield from the final third, regroup a bit and try again. The AI simply isn't smart enough for this. So, what happens is this: your team gets into the final third. The way forward is blocked, and there is no good pass to be played. Here, in this situation, your player will opt for the long shot, no matter what his instructions are and no matter how good he is. In real life, he would pass the ball back into midfield or even into the defense, but this never happens in the game.

 

Incidentally, this is also why you never see Barcelona-type possession statistics in the game. Even the Barcelona players go for the long shot even if it's stupid.

I agree.  I have a passing possession orientated  philosophy at my club. However, despite using player and team instructions such as "Shoot less often", and "Retain possession",   my players do not pass it back to the defence or even goalkeeper to retain possession if there is no attacking option available and instead continue to attack with ridiculous long shots. These long shots rarely hit the target  (despite how  skilled they are in the Decisions, Long Shot and Technique attributes) and more likely to hit the corner flag.  I use a Control or Standard mentality with an incredibly slow tempo, so am expecting attacking yet short passing football with retention of  possession being the absolute focus. Even with a Contain mentality in a highly structured defensive shape, my players still attack the opposition goal with long shots.  My matches tend to go:

1)  Patiently attack with short passing through the middle as instructed with one touch football 

 -OR -

2) Ignore whatever player and team tactical instruction I have set to do their ridiculous long shots from absurd angles 

 

Also, i agree with original post where direct free kicks are rarely scored, even from a 'free kick specialist'  type player.  I'd rather just play the free kick short to retain possession but that option is no longer available 

[haffaz77]

I would really like to hear from one of the Admins or Mods if that is a known Issue ... But obviously you won't hear anything else but "It's your tacitc" .. Which is ridiculous bcuz it happens to everyone .. It just does not bother everyone ... The long shots are so bad and happening so often  ,that i just wanna close the Game in the Taskmanager ... 

Please fix this ASAP . 

[Svenc]

16 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Unlike every single team in real life, no team in this game realizes that it's actually possible to play the ball back to midfield from the final third, regroup a bit and try again. The AI simply isn't smart enough for this. So, what happens is this: your team gets into the final third. The way forward is blocked, and there is no good pass to be played. Here, in this situation, your player will opt for the long shot, no matter what his instructions are and no matter how good he is.

Such statements run the risk of exagerating and clouding other issues, such as AI. You have such an edge over incredibly stupid AI introduced by about FM 2016 that plays like this, on occasion from kick-off (urgh), basically ignoring Uefa Z levels of coaching (if such levels would exist ), or heck, any common sense team sports logics 101 . Immediately with at least a deeper player not only is there options taken for easy ball retention. Every such pass ever since FM 1799 forces opposition to engage that deeper player, opening space again. There will be also  balls stretching play from deeper positions, and any such player sits in areas of lesser pressure from where he can easily switch the flanks when he gets the ball. Playing it back to the defenders as of FM from such advanced positioins is typically suicide though, as CBs are forced to hang all the way back. If they would much advance into the opposition half, they would leave the opposition forwards (up to 3) barely tracking back unmarked -- and as the offside rule doesn't come into play in a team's half, any clearance would send those opposition forwards free en goal.

Simply exaggerating would also be downplaying significant issues AI has had on this ever since about two releases. It's impacting their performances, it makes me cringe every time I see it. As those passes are played -- if there are options. Not having them makes keepers look pretty good too as indeed, even if AI wanted to play it back to rebuild, or shift the ball around to stretch an opposition -- they simply damn couldn't. I think some of the best shot conversion in recent iterations I had when playing a Christmas Tree 4-3-2-1, with all three central midfielders encouraged to stay deeper. Doing the opposite also immediately impacted the win ratio (up to -20% in comparison), as there was an influx of hurried, rushed shots, naturally.

[FMunderachiever]

On 27/12/2017 at 23:12, herne79 said:

Therein lies an issue.

We shouldn't need to look for tactical recommendations because (apparently) there already is one in game - it's a Team Instruction called "Work Ball Into Box".  But the issue is a disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

The perception - probably in part at least due to the instruction's label - is that it's some kind of "magic button" that automatically stops players taking pot shots at goal and so will pass the ball around more instead.

To an extent that's true, but in order for players to look to pass the ball instead of taking a shot, they need to have a player available to make the pass to.  That can only come from other tactical settings, but especially from player roles and duties.  eg., lets imagine we're using a 4-1-2-3DM Wide formation, with 2 x Central Midfielders with a support duty, 2 wingers at AML/R and a Poacher.  Your Poacher keeps taking long shots so you (quite naturally) add in the TI "Work Ball Into Box".  But he still keeps taking long shots.  How come?  Because he still hasn't got anybody to pass to.  That's the disconnect between the perception of how this TI supposedly "works" and the reality of it working.

The same kind of thing happens if you give a player a PI of "Shoot Less" or, at the other end of the scale, tell your defenders to "Play Out of Defence".

If that kind of connecting up the disconnects on the tactics screen in game could somehow be added by SI (and yes I have raised it), personally I feel that could take tactical creation to a whole new level - especially for new or inexperienced players.  It might also make the Tactics Forum a bit quieter .

So, Naor5563, if you are looking for tactical recommendations, think about the less obvious issues first such as player attributes, PPMs and your chosen roles / duties, and think about how such players move and interact before firing up instructions like "Shoot Less" or "Work Ball Into Box".

So why use work ball into box ever then?

If there are no passing options players shoot.

If there are passing options better than shooting theyll pass.

Sounds like all work ball into box will do is make your team overly patient by turning down chances to shoot that are actual chances.

I never use this instruction and glad i dont. And if it works like you say its twaddle.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, haffaz77 said:

I would really like to hear from one of the Admins or Mods if that is a known Issue ... But obviously you won't hear anything else but "It's your tacitc" .. Which is ridiculous bcuz it happens to everyone .. It just does not bother everyone ... The long shots are so bad and happening so often  ,that i just wanna close the Game in the Taskmanager ... 

Please fix this ASAP . 

 

I have pointed out several outstanding match engine issues since FM2013. None of them have been acknowledged. My response was to stop supporting the franchise. I still follow the discussion, as you can see, because there is enormous potential here.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

So why use work ball into box ever then?

If there are no passing options players shoot.

If there are passing options better than shooting theyll pass.

Sounds like all work ball into box will do is make your team overly patient by turning down chances to shoot that are actual chances.

I never use this instruction and glad i dont. And if it works like you say its twaddle.

I didn't say how it works.  I just said that it doesn't magically put players into positions to be a passing option.

Very basically, what the instruction does is give players a bit of encouragement to choose to pass to an available team mate rather than take a shot.  It doesn't make team mates available for a pass, it just makes the pass a bit more likely if a team mate is there.  Getting the team mate there is down to other factors - and that's the disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

[Svenc]

21 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Very basically, what the instruction does is give players a bit of encouragement to choose to pass to an available team mate rather than take a shot.  It doesn't make team mates available for a pass, it just makes the pass a bit more likely if a team mate is there.  Getting the team mate there is down to other factors - and that's the disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

Indeed, you could make the argument whether there should be an instruction creating that perception, in a sense. Think about the other end of the pitch, perhaps in a multiplayer match-up. The other guy going with a "Force to long shots" magic button team instruction. Of course, that doesn't exist. If you wanted to do that, you had to think over stuff at least a modicum, which has a few benefits. Let's see.. if we drop a little deeper we make it difficult for them to simply play easy balls over the top. It seems they are also pushing up numbers centrally, so let's stuff that area with players, and also keep our players' movement in check so that they aren't positionally adventurous when we are in possession either.That way, play may be more likely to bog down in front of our goal, and he  may be forced to additionally ranged attempts. Bliss!

And maybe at that point, even discouraging every player from taking "long shots" would be no fix for the opposition player (though he may report it as a bug rather than being delighted -- sometimes a simple matter of perspective switch). The key outside of ironing out possible engine limitations, is getting players (as well as hopefully AI) "thinking", or at least CONSIDERING, what they are actually doing. That's the future, imo.
 

[haffaz77]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb herne79:

I didn't say how it works.  I just said that it doesn't magically put players into positions to be a passing option.

Very basically, what the instruction does is give players a bit of encouragement to choose to pass to an available team mate rather than take a shot.  It doesn't make team mates available for a pass, it just makes the pass a bit more likely if a team mate is there.  Getting the team mate there is down to other factors - and that's the disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

I get what you mean , but there is definitely an issue with Long Shots . Just look at Statistics AI vs AI with full detail level .. Especially when Man City plays (or barca and other posession teams) . I have seen AI vs AI matches where City had 29 shots and 19 of those were long shots . But i gotta say, i noticed that some long shots are not even real long shots . Even shots from inside the Box counting sometimes as Long Shots . It should not happen i think !? Intelligent Players should be able to pass the Ball back to a CB or DM if there is no Option. But no ... even with passing options (Left and right) they just shoot and the ball goes to the corner flag. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, haffaz77 said:

I get what you mean , but there is definitely an issue with Long Shots . Just look at Statistics AI vs AI with full detail level .. Especially when Man City plays (or barca and other posession teams) . I have seen AI vs AI matches where City had 29 shots and 19 of those were long shots . But i gotta say, i noticed that some long shots are not even real long shots . Even shots from inside the Box counting sometimes as Long Shots . It should not happen i think !? Intelligent Players should be able to pass the Ball back to a CB or DM if there is no Option. But no ... even with passing options (Left and right) they just shoot and the ball goes to the corner flag. 

 

Speaking of statistics, take a look at how many headers some smallish centre-forwards generally attempt in a match. I'm pretty sure you'll be astonished and disappointed. I mean, in real life, someone like Aguero may attempt perhaps two or three headers in a match, if that, whereas in FM, the average number is somewhere around 15.

[Lexis]

There are actually multiple problems at hand.

First of all is long shots aren't threatening at all. I am constantly seeing Messi and Ronaldo (in a La Liga Online Game) constantly shooting MILES off the goal from very good positions at around the 16-20 meters mark. I've tried playing Messi on the right as an inside and the only time he actually got goals was with his RIGHT foot coming off the wing in a 5-6 meter clear cut with the goalie. Every time he showed the ball to his strong foot and attempted a shot from 16-20 meters, it would go wildly off the mark. Like, not even close. 

I am seeing a similar trend with Ronaldo, whenever he attempts shots from outside the box, they go miles off target. Now, don't tell me about tactics. The players got into good positions where they should be a real threat on goal. In real life you simply cannot let them show the ball on their strong foot and leave them space, because at that moment they pose a real danger on the goal. That doesn't happen in game. And these are players with extremely high attributes. Ronaldo has Long Shots 20 or something, while Messi has 17. These are players that should be a REAL menace in 16-20 meters if allowed to shoot, yet their attempts in game are laughable. 

 

Inside Forwards don't seem to work properly because of this as well. Whenever I see a IF going to the inside and showing the ball on the strong foot, he'll generally shoot to the far post but miles off target.

Stop talking about tactics and stuff, we've been using top players and top teams and chances get created regularly and we keep seeing this same thing. Run a save game for yourself and see how they behave, apparently SEGA haven't done this.

Long Shots 20, theoretically, along with a good technique and mental attributes should make you one of the best long shooters of all time, make you AT THE VERY LEAST to be a menace to the keeper...not a laughable pile of cr**.

 

Sincerely hoping for SEGA to fix this for the next patch.

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, Lexis said:

Long Shots 20, theoretically, along with a good technique and mental attributes should make you one of the best long shooters of all time, make you AT THE VERY LEAST to be a menace to the keeper...not a laughable pile of cr**.

Might be worth another editor experiment how severe this runs. As the AI cannot be relied upon, also @haffaz77 taking the side over oneself though. Even if AI tried, it couldn't "tailor" play so that players were to advance from deep in time to take such shots. If it struggles with team sports basics such as compressing attacking space, it simply cannot be expected to tailor play towards something more specifically. In a sense, that is naturally a good thing and a necessity -- because, the more you tailor play towards a particular kind of finish, or indeed player, the more likely there is going to be an opposition approach who would draw that some bust. In real football, this would stick out this hugely purely looking at an opponent's data already that everybody would try to cut off the obvious supply and adapt. As AI has limited reactivity thus, coding AI to be fairly "general" seems a requirement.

[Lexis]

I must mention that in my save, both Barca and Real are coached by human players (me and my friend). And we're pretty much tailoring the team around these two players....yet they completely fail in the ME in this regard, while otherwise playing good.

Not a morale problem or form problem, as they re both otherwise getting things done, just those specific situations.

 

Might I add I'm also rarely seeing the defense splitting passes or dribbling runs that we see in real life from Messi / Neymar. 

Yes it would most certainly be worth a editor experiment and do SEGA's job for them.

[Naor5563]

This problem made me switch highlights from extended to key, as I just can't keep seeing those dozens of mad long shots which most of them going literally to the corner flag and even few to the side line advert signs (!) ( Premier league level ). Come on SI, help us with this. Check this issue, please!

[rdbayly]

The below screenshot is accurately representative of the vast majority of my matches this season. I've included shots off target from my team (Wolves) and the opposition (Derby).

 

I've personally never seen worse shooting on any version of FM, from both human and AI teams. International class footballers on FM18 are hitting the target from the edge of the area about 10% of the time. It unhinges your entire tactic; especially when the offending players possess all of the mental and technical attributes to pick a better option that is available (I repeat AVAILABLE).

The biggest deal-breaker is how wild and off target these shots are. The inside forward role has been destroyed as a result.

I don't think it can be addressed in this ME with an update. Seems to be part of its DNA now.

 

[Naor5563]

2 hours ago, rdbayly said:

The below screenshot is accurately representative of the vast majority of my matches this season. I've included shots off target from my team (Wolves) and the opposition (Derby).

 

I've personally never seen worse shooting on any version of FM, from both human and AI teams. International class footballers on FM18 are hitting the target from the edge of the area about 10% of the time. It unhinges your entire tactic; especially when the offending players possess all of the mental and technical attributes to pick a better option that is available (I repeat AVAILABLE).

The biggest deal-breaker is how wild and off target these shots are. The inside forward role has been destroyed as a result.

I don't think it can be addressed in this ME with an update. Seems to be part of its DNA now.

 

Your screenshot fully reflect my season as well. Players just can't hit the target.

[Dingusen]

On 31.12.2017 at 10:24, herne79 said:

  It doesn't make team mates available for a pass, it just makes the pass a bit more likely if a team mate is there.  Getting the team mate there is down to other factors - and that's the disconnect between the perception of what the instruction does and what it actually does.

Yes, you are right from my experience too but this is not very intuitively. That TI SHOULD mean that when the team is instructed to pass the ball around (often in comical fashion) instead of shooting, players are also instructed to postion themselves or run into space to receive these passes. The TI should not only be about the passer, but also the receivers. However, with that being said the receivers of the passes needs to be in the general area to make sutch runs or position themselves. The TI can't and shouldn't magicly install teammembers around and isolated striker if he gets the ball and your tactic is set up to isolate him... The TI should obviously not correct broken tactids in that regard, but it should play a larger role for the (potential) receivers of passes.

[Chief Scout]

A agree that there are number of long shots per game in FM.

Long shots may be more often a consequence of:

• higher mentality (for example overload) and on the other hand the mentality of your opponent (f.e. park the bus vs. overload = many useless long shots)
• player not having other options (for example through ball, cross...); many times have we seen players short passings in front of the penalty area with defence standing and waiting, and then suddenly long shot from ridiculous position
• player's PPM (for example shoots from distance); if player has poor long shot attribute, try to un-learn this PPM
• system in which you are a weaker team (technically), but try to play narrow, slowly exploiting the middle and want to outclass better opponent.

Long shots will still happen, nevertheless they can be reduced by:

• using TI (work ball in the box)
• PI (shoot less often, with combination of TI be more disciplined)
• using the system with fast counter attacks (attack/ very fluid) exploiting the flanks, which increase the crosses into the box (using WB su/at or wingers or wide strikers).

[fidelitywars]

9 minutes ago, Chief Scout said:

A agree that there are number of long shots per game in FM.

Long shots may be more often a consequence of:

• higher mentality (for example overload) and on the other hand the mentality of your opponent (f.e. park the bus vs. overload = many useless long shots)
• player not having other options (for example through ball, cross...); many times have we seen players short passings in front of the penalty area with defence standing and waiting, and then suddenly long shot from ridiculous position
• player's PPM (for example shoots from distance); if player has poor long shot attribute, try to un-learn this PPM
• system in which you are a weaker team (technically), but try to play narrow, slowly exploiting the middle and want to outclass better opponent.

Long shots will still happen, nevertheless they can be reduced by:

• using TI (work ball in the box)
• PI (shoot less often, with combination of TI be more disciplined)
• using the system with fast counter attacks (attack/ very fluid) exploiting the flanks, which increase the crosses into the box (using WB su/at or wingers or wide strikers).

I worry that posts like this will make SI dismiss the concerns raised as tactical issues when it doesn't feel that that's correct.

In any case, I personally typical play on a standard mentality with a very, very capable technical team designed to play patient, possession football and avoid players with the PPM 'shoots from distance' like the plague (or in the rare cases that I do, insist they unlearn it and if they don't, sell them or play them in a deeper, disciplined role to restrict its influence). Don't think that PPM has been useful in any incarnation of FM but having players with it in the current ME is tantamount to self-sabotage.

Further, I habitually, religiously use the instructions to work the ball into the box and shoot less often is selected for every player on my team (including my main striker) but dreadful decision-making, wild long-shots and profligacy in front of goal continue to be huge issues. 

Lastly, i'm sure that counter-attacking with width will reduce the misery of this issue but that's not really an acceptable workaround for those of us who abhor tactics like that. Even in my set-up, with multiple technical midfielders, my attacking full-back is by far my most decisive assist man, which is far from what i'm trying to create (wasn't the case prior to the most recent patch). I have no desire to sit-back, break and chuck crosses into the box hoping for headed goals; I see this as a dull, antiquated approach and find it pretty concerning that as FM in general becomes ever more complex, the most rewarding tactical set-ups remain dreadfully primitive.

Of course, players should retain the flexibility to add width against certain opponents/for certain periods but I refuse entirely to base my tactics on this approach and don't feel that I should have to in order to avoid frustration as I see these issues as bugs which I hope SI will soon attempt to resolve.

[Cas46]

I haven't posted on here for years but having played this years game and watching the matches I felt a need to come on here and see if there was a thread on this subject. At the risk of repeating what others said there are far too many silly decisions from players in general but especially when it comes to shooting. When I watch a match I don't feel like a lot of it has any relationship to what a player would do in reality, shots from way out or crazy angles is the most obvious but for me it also includes players standing around by the corner flag waiting to get tackled, they get tackled, cross is played in and goal. 

One on one shooting also seems very dodgy to me with the vast majority of chances missed by world class strikers but the long shots are the worst. I can give players and the team every instruction possible to reduce long shots but still CMs will smash it to the corner flag instead of playing in an overlapping fullback in 15 yards of space that they are staring at. When the fullbacks do get the ball often they shoot from an impossible angle despite being told to shoot less often and cross more when there are players in the centre. All of this makes the game very difficult to take seriously when you see complete nonsense on the pitch, yesterday I was playing a match where I was a goal up going into injury time and an opposing player had it on the halfway line and booted it into the corner with the commentary 'Player clears the ball'.

I also agree with comments about freekicks, I've seen some scored but in my current save I've played 2 years and we haven't scored or conceded from a direct freekick yet, every freekick highlight is pointless or is the start of a counter attack. 

[forameuss]

22 minutes ago, fidelitywars said:

I worry that posts like this will make SI dismiss the concerns raised as tactical issues when it doesn't feel that that's correct.

I wouldn't worry about that specifically, I'd more worry about people getting all in a lather in threads like this one, but the same work not being put in to making a decent thread in the bugs forum about it.  If something is raised there with decent enough evidence, they'll investigate it until they themselves are happy there isn't a problem.  They're not going to take someone saying "it's your tactics", then shrug and not investigate it.  

I'd imagine there is an issue - there always is in the ME.  Something changes, something else gets knocked out.  It'll perpetually happen until there is no FM.  I'd even go as far as saying that the pervasive FM ME bug of the year that always comes out, SI know about it far earlier than any user reports it.  Doesn't mean they can necessarily fix it though.

[Naor5563]

52 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I wouldn't worry about that specifically, I'd more worry about people getting all in a lather in threads like this one, but the same work not being put in to making a decent thread in the bugs forum about it.  If something is raised there with decent enough evidence, they'll investigate it until they themselves are happy there isn't a problem.  They're not going to take someone saying "it's your tactics", then shrug and not investigate it.  

I'd imagine there is an issue - there always is in the ME.  Something changes, something else gets knocked out.  It'll perpetually happen until there is no FM.  I'd even go as far as saying that the pervasive FM ME bug of the year that always comes out, SI know about it far earlier than any user reports it.  Doesn't mean they can necessarily fix it though.

It's almost a week since the thread 'on air', with various complains from a lot of respected members who seems to take FM in the seriousness a high class and sophisticated game like FM should be taken.

Unfortunately despite few advices about tactics ( which are great, but still it's not the root of the problem ) we did not see any comments from SI, which makes me worried as well. I don't want this issue to be forgotten or dismissed.

This problem in the ME is a deal braker. ( and with all respect, after all the comments here and after seening a lot of people feels that way about Long Shots , i'm sure it's a problem ).

 

 

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, Naor5563 said:

It's almost a week since the thread 'on air', with various complains from a lot of respected members who seems to taking FM in the seriousness a high class and sophisticated game like FM should be taken.

Unfortunately despite few advices about tactics ( which are great, but still it's not the root of the problem ) we did not see any comments from SI, which is make me worried as well. I don't want this issue to be forgotten or dismissed.

This problem in the ME is a deal braker. ( and with all respect, after all the comments here and after seening a lot of people feels that way about Long Shots, i'm sure it's a problem ).

They're not going to follow up on it on this board.  I'm not sure why people keep expecting it.

The place to get an idea of what SI think, or have them look at something, is - and always will be - the bugs forum.

[Naor5563]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

They're not going to follow up on it on this board.  I'm not sure why people keep expecting it.

The place to get an idea of what SI think, or have them look at something, is - and always will be - the bugs forum.

The below thread seems to be full with SI comments and updates regarding progress ( if there is ) ...

 

And ofcourse I'm being sarcastic.

[forameuss]

5 minutes ago, Naor5563 said:

The below thread seems to be full with SI comments and updates regarding progress ( if there is ) ...

 

And ofcourse I'm being sarcastic.

Yeah, it's not as if it's a traditional time of year for people to have time off and spend it with their families or anything.  Let's immediately go and burn the office to the ground!

Whether you get replies in there or not, I'd be willing to bet you'll get more than you will here.  Because that's what the bugs forum is for.  The thread was raised on Christmas Day - at the very most, people would have been on a 3 day week last week, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a skeleton crew.  Today is the first "normal" working day since then, and a lot of people will likely still not be in.  

Probably going to need to have a little bit more patience.

[Svenc]

Coincidentally, I watched a few latest of Rashidi's, and not only did it show a few back passes and stretching defenses, it also involved two ranged goals (ok, one edge of the box). May be coincidence, naturally. Thing is, it's oft a mix of input and engine, and the key is in finding out what's what.

Pre-patch there was a big thread collecting shots showing purely the shot maps. As (I too) barely follow that in football consistently, I then looked at the then recent match day in Serie A, no cherry picking. Outside of those curious shots going out all wide, I couldn't tell the difference to that thread . Such stuff naturally relates to everything. If "world class forwards" would miss at least as much as they convert, that'd be accurate, I'm afraid. At least part of the problem, in particular as to long shots, is that in real football players visibly may lose their balance upon taking shots, whereas on FM, whenever something goes way off target, it looks as if he meant that -- in parts naturally also connected that the simulation of "body contact" et all is limited to non-existent.

It's stupid to argue the engine itself would be football, it isn't. It would be equally stupid though to dismiss the input, this includes AI too. Reading some of Rashidi's more recent comments and seeing some of the imo "downgrades" made to AI over the last couple iterations (which totally force them into pot shots, on occasion, playing 4-2-3-1s with two IFs cutting inside, the two centre mids advancing in that same space, etc. etc): If I'd be into conspiracies, I'd suspect this was done so that at least everyone was suffering of a few added pot shots. However, if such nonsense then results in top teams taking nothing but a load of pot shots, this would need adressing either way -- which would be also a good thing. Hopefully is all reviewed either way.

[Guest El Payaso]

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/blogs/inside-blue/inside-blue/thinking-outside-the-box.html

Had decided that I will keep out of the general discussion and bugs forum from now on but I'll just leave this here.

Quote

The Spanish ace was on target for the fifth time this season in our thumping win over Stoke City on Saturday, brilliantly turning his marker before crisply firing home from the edge of the area.

That the finishing touch was applied outside the 18-yard box by the Blues No11 should come as no surprise to fans or opponents alike, for over the past year he has made a habit of punishing teams who afford him too much room.

Of his last eight goals, six of them have come as a result of strikes from outside the penalty area, which is an incredible ratio.

On that one thread about I also wrote about for example Lionel Messi who in last season scored maybe 20-30% (if not more) of his goals from range and from chances that weren't even a HC in FM standards.