Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

[busken]

Which only proves the stupidity of making assumptions about something of which you have absolutely no knowledge at all

But after all, assumptions that one is more than entitled to make, given the fact that PaulC earlier this week announced an "expected" update release to be this very week and today he changed that announcement slightly with a possibly longer release date. Assuming that it has to do with a couple of problems with the update, whether it will be programming or testing, is not a bad bet at all

A couple of days ago:

The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

Today:

JPChenet why don't you try the demo and make your own mind up?

Outside of this thread our feedback is that this year's game has gone down very well. Yes some people are reporting a lot of shots in certain tactical setups as well as too many goals in some lower leagues but overall we believe the vast majority are happy.

Not that this affects our commitment to provide updates through the months following release. The game is hugely complex and we will never perfect every element of it but you'll never see us slacking off from trying to take it forward.

Before anyone asks no I don't know when the next update is out. Its still in it's QA phase and hopefully ready very soon but until it's passed that process I can't be specific about which day or even week.

So no stupidity there tbh.

[Ackter]

It's been a day shy of three weeks since release and there is still no update. Instead what we are told is that our moaning is insignificant and the vast majority are enjoying the game. Fair enough. What is being forgotten however is that forum users, the people that actually take the time out to post on the official forums, are often the most ardent lovers/supporters of the game. I honestly don't like forums that much(As I type more than enough in school) but i have hundred plus posts in here and that is a mere fraction of most other users i see. Very poor show guys.

Moan constructively in the bugs forum and the moans become very significant. Moan baselessly in here and yes, it's insignificant.

[Neil Brock]

This thread is getting dangerously close to being closed now as it's become less about actual constructive feedback and more about anything else.

Please keep the thread on topic else we'll have to close it until after the update is released.

Thanks.

[solon]

Enojoying the game myself more than I thought I would after reading the forums. Sure, I've had my share of losses even tho I've dominated the game but looking back at a whole season those things tend to even themselves out. Only thing that's stopping me from continuing is the low rating my wingbacks get but that has been adressed already.

[busken]

Double post

[Thengil]

Love the game, much less annoying press conferences compared to earlier versions, contract negotiations and training are better and the slider-less tactics system is more intuitive. As soon as the niggling issues with the match engine are corrected this game will outshine earlier editions by far. The only issue I have really is that it's a bit too much of a hassle building up your staff - I love how it's handled in Classic. Unfortunately for me other features that are missing in Classic are too good for me to be able to enjoy that mode as much as "Full" mode.

[ricardo fromage]

Its not a bug and its not an issue

Its exactly the same in real life isn't it that teams will want to buy better players, the game simulates this also. In the same way players will often want to play for better teams or maybe teams that pay them more money. If you want a better chance of keeping a player then maybe offer him a new contract

Ramping up the price too much will often result in players getting upset. In addition other clubs aren't always that stupid

The game is getting better so in the in statement you mention above I'd say its improved and that "cheat" perhaps is now prevented

Hey man, thanks for the reply. Yeh I agree with you there, it's just they're not transfer listed or unhappy or have asked to leave, I just keep getting these bids for them when I've set an asking price of 20 - 30m. It's only a matter of time before one starts to get disgruntled. But hey ho.....

[milnerpoint]

Hey man, thanks for the reply. Yeh I agree with you there, it's just they're not transfer listed or unhappy or have asked to leave, I just keep getting these bids for them when I've set an asking price of 20 - 30m. It's only a matter of time before one starts to get disgruntled. But hey ho.....

I've found it take a lot to unsettle them in this years game, so you should be ok

[ArneH]

I'm wondering if anyone else noticed the same:

But in game I often notice if a player passes it often seems there is a lack of power in passing.

When a player starts passing it starts good but then it suddely slows down a lot like it's barely gonna arrive on place, like there is no power.

I don't think it's really a bug. Might just the graphics that are still a bit awkward. Who knows, might even just a feeling that I've.

But I wonder: does anyone else think the same?

[Casual]

It's a hysterical hyperbole. Rightly or wrongly people will not be taken seriously if they can't bring themselves to avoid these.

People's opinions are generally considered veeery selectively by FM game developers. And I'm talking about constructive suggestions.

For example my biggest problem, and I think I speak for many others when I say this, is the updating strategy this game is having every year, where you don't get the real product before February, or to rephrase you don't get the FINAL product until then. Before that, the game changes 5-6 times because with every update there is another "catch", another grand bug, or gamebreaking point. Practicaly, the demo means nothing because the ME changes so many times after it that it feels like a completely new game every time it gets updated.

The biggest number of users have a problem with this, and the only answer I got was from Miles Jacobson who said something like "This has always been the successful strategy for us, and we are not planning to change it".

So, obviously we have a problem from the start because everything I don't like about the game revolves around that, and every problem/bug that the game has, and every moan and weep that SI gets from angry users is the consequence of that strategy which is providing an unfinished game to end users and treating them like they are testers.

Maybe some of you like to be a voluntary testers, but a lot of us just wanna put the disc inside (or turn on steam) and play. Nobody wants to wait for another 6 months and play the older game if the new game is already out & tickling your mind and addiction to the series. But waiting for end of november to release the whole game would be much more fair to us then making us go through this painful process year by year.

Yes nobody is really MAKING me buy the game, but as a huge fan and addict of this, I do every year. Am I to blame because I bought the unfinished product that changes every 2 weeks or so, or are the ones who create it bad..? That's just the matter of opinion and general life attitude, but I know that I will always be on the side of the people in this case because apparently the game will never be perfect so there will always be those who complain.

[Foot]

This thread is getting dangerously close to being closed now as it's become less about actual constructive feedback and more about anything else.

Please keep the thread on topic else we'll have to close it until after the update is released.

Thanks.

Neil, I can understand your sentiment but I think it is probably best to keep a thread like this open so that the trash-talking is contained in 1 thread rather than spilling out into 100 individual threads. The content of a thread like this will obviously get more and more negative over time as the constructive/normal people are more than likely playing the game or waiting patiently for the patch and living their lives rather than coming on the forums to whinge.

tl;dr - If the whingers are gonna whinge, it is best that they do it in 1 thread instead of 100.

[Ragazzo_SLB]

Completely according with Casual.

[PaulC]

People's opinions are generally considered veeery selectively by FM game developers. And I'm talking about constructive suggestions.

For example my biggest problem, and I think I speak for many others when I say this, is the updating strategy this game is having every year, where you don't get the real product before February, or to rephrase you don't get the FINAL product until then. Before that, the game changes 5-6 times because with every update there is another "catch", another grand bug, or gamebreaking point. Practicaly, the demo means nothing because the ME changes so many times after it that it feels like a completely new game every time it gets updated.

The biggest number of users have a problem with this, and the only answer I got was from Miles Jacobson who said something like "This has always been the successful strategy for us, and we are not planning to change it".

So, obviously we have a problem from the start because everything I don't like about the game revolves around that, and every problem/bug that the game has, and every moan and weep that SI gets from angry users is the consequence of that strategy which is providing an unfinished game to end users and treating them like they are testers.

Maybe some of you like to be a voluntary testers, but a lot of us just wanna put the disc inside (or turn on steam) and play. Nobody wants to wait for another 6 months and play the older game if the game is already out & tickling your mind and addiction to the series. But waiting for end of november to release the whole game would be much more fair to us then making us go through this painful process year by year.

Yes nobody is really MAKING me buy the game, but as a huge fan and addict of this, I do every year. Am I to blame because I bought the unfinished product that changes every 2 weeks or so, or are the ones who create it bad..? That's just the matter of opinion and general life attitude, but I know that I will always be on the side of the people in this case because apparently the game will never be perfect so there will always be those who complain.

Yes there will always be people who complain, especially in these forums where the "hardcore" reside. I have no problem with that, in the case of many it's passion for the game. In the case of a few they are unable to post with any manners and inevitably get removed. That's life.

To answer your points. Yes we generally update through to February, and yes it works for us. Of course it would be fantastic to release a game in November that didnt need any updating but that is generally not possible with software as complex and subjective as FM. We have never tried to hide from that. If your personal experience is that you dont enjoy the game until after a few updates you are an adult with free will and have every right to wait next time.

In terms of the game radically changing with each update. Really? Ok there has been the odd hiccup ME wise through the years and also one or two updates that really hit the spot but at the end of the day its 11 vs 11 footie sim with all the bells and whistles of management attached. Do the vast majority of users, who probably never considered signing up to an FM forum see it like this? I am not so sure.

I also ask this every year as I think it is "relevant". If we held back each release until some level of "perfection" was achieved would the majority of our users thank us? I suspect not. In fact I suspect the rants on here would dwarf anything in this thread. As Mr Ackter just posted, there are 31k out there playing the game right now at the same time as we debate this!

[Cougar2010]

People's opinions are generally considered veeery selectively by FM game developers. And I'm talking about constructive suggestions.

For example my biggest problem, and I think I speak for many others when I say this, is the updating strategy this game is having every year, where you don't get the real product before February, or to rephrase you don't get the FINAL product until then. Before that, the game changes 5-6 times because with every update there is another "catch", another grand bug, or gamebreaking point. Practicaly, the demo means nothing because the ME changes so many times after it that it feels like a completely new game every time it gets updated.

The biggest number of users have a problem with this, and the only answer I got was from Miles Jacobson who said something like "This has always been the successful strategy for us, and we are not planning to change it".

So, obviously we have a problem from the start because everything I don't like about the game revolves around that, and every problem/bug that the game has, and every moan and weep that SI gets from angry users is the consequence of that strategy which is providing an unfinished game to end users and treating them like they are testers.

Maybe some of you like to be a voluntary testers, but a lot of us just wanna put the disc inside (or turn on steam) and play. Nobody wants to wait for another 6 months and play the older game if the new game is already out & tickling your mind and addiction to the series. But waiting for end of november to release the whole game would be much more fair to us then making us go through this painful process year by year.

Yes nobody is really MAKING me buy the game, but as a huge fan and addict of this, I do every year. Am I to blame because I bought the unfinished product that changes every 2 weeks or so, or are the ones who create it bad..? That's just the matter of opinion and general life attitude, but I know that I will always be on the side of the people in this case because apparently the game will never be perfect so there will always be those who complain.

and suppose they followed your suggestion and released FM at the November do you really think it would be any better than when its released now?

The answer is no, all that would happen is we would have a similar number of initial bugs just 4-6 weeks later in the year. The patch/update that we are waiting on now would happen towards the end of December/January in your schedule.

The same people would moan, the same issues would arise it would just happen 4-6 weeks later than usual.

[milnerpoint]

In terms of the game radically changing with each update. Really? Ok there has been the odd hiccup ME wise through the years and also one or two updates that really hit the spot but at the end of the day its 11 vs 11 footie sim with all the bells and whistles of management attached. Do the vast majority of users, who probably never considered signing up to an FM forum see it like this? I am not so sure.

From my experience, no they dont, they see it like any other game that gets updated during its cycle. Games tend to change, from the power of weapons, to the ability of players to close down, its all part of a games development cycle after its in the public domain. The majority just get on with it and play the game, the hardcore lot come online to complain or praise these updates.

I have two friends asking me why i want an update to the game right now, as they are flying through seasons having a lot of fun. If i didnt read GD and the bugs forums i think id be in the same boat.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I'd say somethings a bit off in this sequence...

Not the first time I've seen it either.

[canaryboxhead]

Thanks Paul for the information!

I have found playing in the top leagues much more pleasant with this ME. I will happily wait to do a long term lower league save for when this patch is done and has sorted the small (but pretty annoying) factors that kind of make lower leagues less enjoyable at the moment than in the last FM (Many said and posted here already, including my own posts. I heard SI are fixing these, especially the FB rating issue!)

Agree that the additions to this years game are very good, especially the revamped tactics. Its both simplified the game but at the same time increased the options open to the player. No mean feat. They are also mostly very visable on the ME

Definitely agree with the poster saying that 2 lists of free kicks would be great. One list for crossing, one for shooting. Never thought of it but that would be a massive plus. Wanted to bump that up and suggest that for the future

Looking forward to the update

[SurferJames]

I think what paulc said is that the game such as fm is very complicated to be perfect and they all strive to get things done as quick as possible, for me SI have brought years of enjoyment with the game and is something to be proud of in our generation. Just because game needs patches as we all know from experience each year it happens but this will never stop me buying the game early as I love it. I love how advance it has got since champ man and I feel like a real manager striving for success. Fm is unique and the creators deserve the respect and patience for what they provide.

[Svenc]

The biggest number of users have a problem with this, and the only answer I got was from Miles Jacobson who said something like "This has always been the successful strategy for us, and we are not planning to change it".

There's a difference between planning for a so-many-patch-strategy for each release and deliberately releasing an unfinished game. Take FM 2014: Some users claim the Beta to have been more enjoyable than the game currently is, but it was found there were still niggles which were tried to be addressed. The fallout of each tweak is knock ons everywhere, I think to any halfway sensible human being it should be obvious there's always going to be those, given that the core sim goes through "90 minutes" of play and all its actions therein, all the while it is expected that this play should produce 1) overall pretty realistic statistics 2) be responsive to both player and AI manager input and 3) not break apart from anything both the AI and human throws at it.

That's the reason why the ME in FM 2012 wasn't really changed once at all, it was basically FM 2011:reloaded all through, so the ME team could solely focus on the rewrite for future iterations, rather than balance things with each patch anew. Therefore the best SI can do is to ensure that the experience remains playable and thouroughly playtest it, but it's in the nature of the beast that the thing gets twisted and turned around slightly with each update, and thus opinions on each update differ, even when an announced update never actually commenced, as an aforementioned FM Live anecdote has it. Which likely was a very good test and insight for SI in terms of feedback all by itself: Post about an update, and people perceive it as such, even if nothing has changed at all. Given that FM is played by millions, each opinion is of course perfectly legit for each individual player. However, given how communities occasionably publish and seriously discuss downright no-holding-player-at-all suicide tactics (saw this for FM 2013, really), the many bad theories and myths going places in various forums and sometimes downright misconceptions some evidently have regarding football, and football management, it is hard to filter what is actually useful and what isn't. In particular when there's a sizable portion of the audience, each game's audience, in which personal enjoyment is very closely connected to simply winning. That's one reason why SI's soak tests apparently mainly include AI vs AI matches, aside from the feedback of beta testers.

It's worth considering that how the football is being represented in the game is all SI's vision (aided by the football people they connect with, of which some of them are publicly known). Which can provide a clash in and on itself if you disagree -- on misconceptions regarding that, there was a lengthy thread a couple of weeks ago by someone obviously very intelligent who was still of the warped opinion that piling players into the opposition's penalty area and hitting "overload" should always maximize a team's opportunity to score. That is obviously way off in both real football as well as the game, and the game would completely fail to recreate what it's aiming to recreate if it was anything like that.

I'm personally keen on how prior to when the demo of FM 2013 kicked off, it wasn't noticed how every side dropped this deep and stood off by default they let opposition of much lesser quality pass it around well into their own third, for instance, myself. But I don't see SI opening up again on their internal procedures. Not after FM 2013, in which their public admittance to include the partly rewritten ME code comparably late in the production cycle ("We knew it was gonna be one step back, two steps forward initially") was abused as a springboard for "SI are deliberately turning legit buyers of their games into beta testers" claims.

[forameuss]

It works here...

Same for me too, thought it had been removed too.

I'd say somethings a bit off in this sequence...

Not the first time I've seen it either.

Seems to happen on absolutely every job application I make, whether I get offered it or not.

[MrPompey]

PaulC, can you tell me do you agree with me( #4669 page 47 ) that free kicks should have 2 lists? Can we see that in near future? Im tired of that problem. When you play lots of games, its hard not to see that.

Its not a defect its an enhancement. I'm not that sure that SI will make individual changes especially for your Matej no matter how tired you are:)

Raise it as a nice to have / enhancement (assuming there is a thread somewhere. I can promise you that you wont have this change for FM14

[MrPompey]

We never used to get one until xmas, its only last year that we have gotten quicker updates than that.

I think there was an update on release day / day after as I recall?

[Ackter]

Seems to happen on absolutely every job application I make, whether I get offered it or not.

Have you raised it in the bugs forum?

[Casual]

Yes there will always be people who complain, especially in these forums where the "hardcore" reside. I have no problem with that, in the case of many it's passion for the game. In the case of a few they are unable to post with any manners and inevitably get removed. That's life.

To answer your points. Yes we generally update through to February, and yes it works for us. Of course it would be fantastic to release a game in November that didnt need any updating but that is generally not possible with software as complex and subjective as FM. We have never tried to hide from that. If your personal experience is that you dont enjoy the game until after a few updates you are an adult with free will and have every right to wait next time.

In terms of the game radically changing with each update. Really? Ok there has been the odd hiccup ME wise through the years and also one or two updates that really hit the spot but at the end of the day its 11 vs 11 footie sim with all the bells and whistles of management attached. Do the vast majority of users, who probably never considered signing up to an FM forum see it like this? I am not so sure.

I also ask this every year as I think it is "relevant". If we held back each release until some level of "perfection" was achieved would the majority of our users thank us? I suspect not. In fact I suspect the rants on here would dwarf anything in this thread. As Mr Ackter just posted, there are 31k out there playing the game right now at the same time as we debate this!

Tell me this please, what would be the difference if you released the game this week or the next? If I remember well there have been times when the game was released in late November. If the answer to my question is, "then we wouldn't have valuable users feedback" then we come back to my point which was users being used as guinie pig testers way too much, up to the point where the game becomes unnatractive from all the changing, and bug knowledge stuck in your head.

What is the problem for SI to have more testers, all over the world? Why don't you stop now and take a look at forum people who have been contributing a lot and hire 50 new testers? I know SI are not EA Sports, but you earn millions of pounds every year, you have SEGA as your front so I really doubt that a few hundred quid per head of a tester would be a big problem when it can be a solution.

And it's not a few bugs that's the problem, every year there isn't 1 feature that is completely bug free. From small things that are repeating itself every year like widgets moving away from the place where you put them to huge ME problems with injuries, goalies, defenders, shots, full backs, match ratings... I understand that FM is complex and that everything depend on everything, but why little things are not fixed is beyond me, and why the things that have proven to be good from last year aren't kept is beyond me. After all you are not building a spaceship, and you have decades of experience which should teach you to avoid repeating these things, but unfortunately every year you fail to change these bad ways that we are pointing out.

If you want to make users more satisfied than listen to these comments and dont try to find an excuse for everything. There is a lot of fans with good intentions here who are taking their time to write because they want to help, but they are eaten away by vultures who are SI's "defenders" and whose comments, when all arguments fail, are usually boiled down to "If you dont like it, dont buy it". These people should be warned by moderators, not the ones who complain over and over. Their frustration is understandable.

The biggest improvement I would like to see for FM 2014 is for the patching strategy to change,and limit it to maximum 2 patches/updates

[forameuss]

Have you raised it in the bugs forum?

I have not yet. Wrong attitude to have, but has it not already been brought up? Usually my save has charged onwards either accidentally or through impatience, so I rarely have a good example save to upload. Next time I'm unemployed and it happens, I'll make sure I get a candidate save and upload. If it hasn't been already.

[Ackter]

Hiring even 500 testers can simply not compete with an average of over 30,000 people playing the game every hour of every day after release. Regardless of when the game is released, the public will find problems. That's just how it is and will always be.

This strategy is here to stay as it is the only feasible one for this game.

You seem to massively underestimate the challenges a game like FM poses to a development and QA team.

[ianscousemac]

Hiring even 500 testers can simply not compete with an average of over 30,000 people playing the game every hour of every day after release. Regardless of when the game is released, the public will find problems. That's just how it is and will always be.

This strategy is here to stay as it is the only feasible one for this game.

You seem to massively underestimate the challenges a game like FM poses to a development and QA team.

Fully agree Ackter

[MrPompey]

It's been a day shy of three weeks since release and there is still no update. Instead what we are told is that our moaning is insignificant and the vast majority are enjoying the game. Fair enough. What is being forgotten however is that forum users, the people that actually take the time out to post on the official forums, are often the most ardent lovers/supporters of the game. I honestly don't like forums that much(As I type more than enough in school) but i have hundred plus posts in here and that is a mere fraction of most other users i see. Very poor show guys.

There was an update either on or just after release day.

If you took the time to read this thread / or the reposts of what Paul said you will see that Paul confirmed the ME element of the update has been completed and it waits other fixes to be made and tested. Is it better that they take a bit of time to try and get it right and just release it willy nilly and risk more people getting upset.

I'd rather wait everytime.

Since you have been posting here since 10/2012 I'm sure you know how things work

The wait is disappointing for us all but we just have to understand that its for a good reason

[forameuss]

Tell me this please, what would be the difference if you released the game this week or the next? If I remember well there have been times when the game was released in late November. If the answer to my question is, "then we wouldn't have valuable users feedback" then we come back to my point which was users being used as guinie pig testers way too much, up to the point where the game becomes unnatractive from all the changing, and bug knowledge stuck in your head.

I'm fairly sure that the answer would be that they would simply transplant the development process onward by a few weeks. Giving more development time isn't always the magic sponge - some bugs will of course be fixed, but more will probably be found. I'd be fairly confident in saying that if they suddenly moved from a late October to late November yearly cycle, the first game to be released would be in a similar state as to if it wasn't moved.

What is the problem for SI to have more testers, all over the world? Why don't you stop now and take a look at forum people who have been contributing a lot and hire 50 new testers? I know SI are not EA Sports, but you earn millions of pounds every year, you have SEGA as your front so I really doubt that a few hundred quid per head of a tester would be a big problem when it can be a solution.

So we just chuck a "few hundred quid" at someone from a forum and problems are solved? That's a pretty half-way house way of doing things. They do bring in external beta testers, but only if they're deemed to have earned it. They'll also hire talented internal testers - for more than a few hundred quid I imagine - but this isn't the easiest task.

And it's not a few bugs that's the problem, every year there isn't 1 feature that is completely bug free. From small things that are repeating itself every year like widgets moving away from the place where you put them to huge ME problems with injuries, goalies, defenders, shots, full backs, match ratings... I understand that FM is complex and that everything depend on everything, but why little things are not fixed is beyond me, and why the things that have proven to be good from last year aren't kept is beyond me. After all you are not building a spaceship, and you have decades of experience which should teach you to avoid repeating these things, but unfortunately every year you fail to change these bad ways that we are pointing out.

I see where you're coming from, but it's not showing much of an understanding of the development process. In a perfect happy clappy world, there would be no bugs. That isn't going to happen. Sometimes all the bugs will be contained in one easy to hate feature, but most of the time, they'll be spread across the system. When a system is as complex as it is, that's a problem, but not one that's just going to get solved easily. Change one thing, you change hundreds of others. Even things that were fixed before. I don't recall the exact explanation for the widgets problem, but I remember thinking it seemed to make perfect sense.

If you want to make users more satisfied than listen to these comments and dont try to find an excuse for everything. There is a lot of fans with good intentions here who are taking their time to write because they want to help, but they are eaten away by vultures who are SI's "defenders" and whose comments, when all arguments fail, are usually boiled down to "If you dont like it, dont buy it". These people should be warned by moderators, not the ones who complain over and over. Their frustration is understandable.

But what about the frustration of those who are actually enjoying the game when someone makes a ridiculous comment? I'm in no way saying you are, just generalising. It works both ways. It's cringeworthy when either side goes after the other, but I find it's often the "haters" that seem to shout the loudest about their free speech, while at the same time saying the "lovers" shouldn't be allowed to say the same back. And you're right, there are plenty of people who are critical of the game constructively and we need those people. If we didn't, the game would be in a much worse state than it is now. But they are few and far between.

The biggest improvement I would like to see for FM 2014 is for the patching strategy to change,and limit it to maximum 2 patches/updates

Your opinion, but can't agree. There should never be any kind of limit. There should be targets, definitely, but what if these two patches dropped, and then something had been broken in the 2nd one inadvertently? What happens then? Updates should be released as and when they're needed, as long as they're not frivolous. At the moment it seems to be a three-patch-strategy - do you remember the moaning after the last one for FM13 when people complained that the game was "still broken" and there would be no updates?

[Ackter]

Incidentally, the minimum you can get away with paying a professional tester these days is around 12k a year.

It's not exactly "a few hundred quid".

[Casual]

Hiring even 500 testers can simply not compete with an average of over 30,000 people playing the game every hour of every day after release. Regardless of when the game is released, the public will find problems. That's just how it is and will always be.

This strategy is here to stay as it is the only feasible one for this game.

You seem to massively underestimate the challenges a game like FM poses to a development and QA team.

You are so wrong my friend. So what am I, better than 500 testers, if every year I turn on the game, dont try looking for bugs at all - but see them anyway, then come to this and other forums and see exactly the same bugs adressed by hundreds of others... Am I a super tester or what? Do I, or the rest of the public, have different eyes than tester or what?

Mate, I'm not talking about the problems/bugs that aren't visible at first and need a lot of people to play the game to discover it. Im talking about obvious things that everyone who turns on the game can see, where there is not doubt that you can say THIS IS THE BUG. Match Ratings for example. You see this thing straight away. No doubt whatsoever that something is wrong, no chance that 1 machine has good match ratings, especially full backs.

So tell me, how did this go past testers? I don't think it did, because they'd be blind if it did, I just feel that every year the game is somehow rushed, and that SI is in a rush to release it while they know themselves that there are thousands of holes yet to be patched.

The great number of bugs that get fixed with every patch shows just how far from the right thing SI is when it first releases the game. So why not postpone it for a month?

[Ackter]

No, I am not wrong. You, however, are wrong. Very wrong.

How many bugs have you seen since you've started playing? A few dozen at most? That amount of bugs seen in the time scale that this game has been released by a professional tester would see his contract not getting extended. How many bugs have you actually reported in a decent way in the bugs forum? Any of them?

A tester's job is to find bugs, not fix them. Those decisions are made by different people - people who have to weigh everything, including the financial aspects, when making these decisions.

You could really do with getting some sort of games industry experience if you're going to mouth off like this tbh. Maybe if you understood even a slight amount about what you're talking about, you'd talk more sense.

Let's take the match ratings as an example - I'm not personally seeing this issue. Everyone on my team is averaging a minimum of 7.00, and my DL has broken the league average rating record with over 8.00.

[Blueflash]

There was an update either on or just after release day.

If you took the time to read this thread / or the reposts of what Paul said you will see that Paul confirmed the ME element of the update has been completed and it waits other fixes to be made and tested. Is it better that they take a bit of time to try and get it right and just release it willy nilly and risk more people getting upset.

I'd rather wait everytime.

Since you have been posting here since 10/2012 I'm sure you know how things work

The wait is disappointing for us all but we just have to understand that its for a good reason

Update on release day was a mini-patch to fix the fullback ratings as i'm sure you know. Nothing else(to my knowledge) was touched. I've also been in this thread since the very first page and i've read nearly every post, so yes, i've seen PaulC's updates. On Friday we were told that they had just missed the cutoff for a weekend release of the update so i assumed as i'm sure many others did, that we'd have it on Tuesday latest. It's Wednesday now and my gut feeling is that we won't be seeing this until Friday. Tomorrow is three weeks since the game released. I have not been able to play for about two weeks now because i just can't deal with some of the bugs. I'm busy as hell for the next fortnight or so, so effectively i won't be able to play my favourite video game for a month. While not earth-shattering you should be able to understand why i'm this frustrated. Also i'm not going back to FM2013, that's like giving me candy and replacing it shortly thereafter with soggy cardboard.

[eri_trabiccolo]

Hiring even 500 testers can simply not compete with an average of over 30,000 people playing the game every hour of every day after release. Regardless of when the game is released, the public will find problems. That's just how it is and will always be.

This strategy is here to stay as it is the only feasible one for this game.

You seem to massively underestimate the challenges a game like FM poses to a development and QA team.

You're absolutely right, that's why SI should release patches as soon as possible, of course according to certain quality constraints.

[Neil Brock]

Two things:

1 - Keep it on topic

2 - It's not so much about seeing the bugs, it's about them being found and deemed high enough priority in the given available time to fix them. If you and hundreds of others have find a bug, it's pretty much a certainty it's been found internally too.

[Ackter]

You're absolutely right, that's why SI should release patches as soon as possible, of course according to certain quality constraints.

It's what they are doing. As soon as the patches are ready to send out, SI send them out.

[MrPompey]

Incidentally, the minimum you can get away with paying a professional tester these days is around 12k a year.

It's not exactly "a few hundred quid".

I'd love to know where you get your 12k pa professional testers from - thats extremely cheap in my opinion:)

[Ackter]

I'd love to know where you get your 12k pa professional testers from

Entry level in London these days is around that.

[Chris21]

Its worth mentioning in SI's defence that you're more likely to hear/read about complaints than you are people enjoying the game because those people are simply too busy enjoying the game to bother coming on here to tell us so.

Even myself I only come on when I want to moan about something or should I say when I want to give feedback

[MrPompey]

[quote name=

The biggest improvement I would like to see for FM 2014 is for the patching strategy to change,and limit it to maximum 2 patches/updates[/quote]

You will be in a very small minority I'm afraid

[penza]

I couldn't live without FM so I thank you SI for all the hard work to make a series every year!

[forameuss]

Entry level in London these days is around that.

Not arguing with you, but is it really that in London? That's horrendously low for the price of living down there. Think the minimum as a developer when we graduated up where I am was about 17k. Understand that's a developer and a different kettle of fish, but still.

But anyway, back on topic, feedback aye? Mixed.

[Ackter]

Not arguing with you, but is it really that in London? That's horrendously low for the price of living down there. Think the minimum as a developer when we graduated up where I am was about 17k. Understand that's a developer and a different kettle of fish, but still.

But anyway, back on topic, feedback aye? Mixed.

When I started out it was 10k for an opening position...

[forameuss]

When I started out it was 10k for an opening position...

Unlucky...I got pretty lucky with my first graduate job, but I guess this was back in the times where they could get away with a lot more - at least it wasn't one of those unpaid internships!

[SurferJames]

I think it opens a window of many options sometimes money isn't at important at the start and can lead future prospects

[Kriss]

SI don't need "defending" they know what they're doing, even so there'll be glitches within glitches because of the huge complexity of the game.

What irritates me on SI's behalf is that people claim to appreciate that complexity when they clearly don't have any idea of the actual extent of it, we're actually talking rocket science here

[Ackter]

Right, I think that's all the Off Topic chat deleted.

Back to feedback please.

[PaulC]

PaulC, can you tell me do you agree with me( #4669 page 47 ) that free kicks should have 2 lists? Can we see that in near future? Im tired of that problem. When you play lots of games, its hard not to see that.

It's a nice idea. We have a huge database of nice ideas and I'll ask someone to add this to it for consideration

[eri_trabiccolo]

It's what they are doing. As soon as the patches are ready to send out, SI send them out.

Allow me to doubt it. There are things that rightly require time: the ME, the question of reputation/contracts, because a small change could have a snowball effect. But what about UI issues, options which disappear, bugged conversations ...

That's my opinion.

Another thing, I agree with the fact that a lot of issues are simply attributable to the creation of incorrect tactics, but why don't supply a manual to tell us what instructions are related, how combining them results in a certain effect? Since this is something "somebody" thought about before implementing.. i hope..

[gl3w]

I have been eagerly awaiting buying this game as fm 13 for me was tragic, fm12 was good but in truth can't think of many great versions since season 08 and 09. I will still buy the game like many others who have done since it's birth because there is no comparable competition for the game. I think if there was and customers chose to go elsewhere then there would be a change in direction but until that happens nothing will change. I reserve judgement on the game until I have played it but am not enthused by the impact to Lower League management as that's where I play the game now, I do believe though that customers needs aren't being met due to the pressure to release a new game every year with marketable,e updates and changes. In truth for me I would have paid £14.99 for an update to teams/players etc on the back of 08 or 09 when the game was simple and enjoyable. I don't care about agents, press conferences and all that jazz because I fell in love with the game when it was about having the best players and best tactics. It's quite complicated now and deep down I think a lot of players would relish a return to a more simple game, easier to develop and will ncrease the chance of a closer to perfect game at point of sale. Less is more in both evolution and scale this will ncrease the chance of getting it right and meeting customer needs. Look at Apple, how often do they release a half finished product, I would be happy to wait for a more finished article or even a new game every 2 years with a seasonal update at a smaller premium. if you know you will have bugs every year the system in place is designed to create failure and additional cost. Am sure all the developers behind the scenes would be better paid developing the next game than fixing this one (maybe this is the problem)

Anyway rant over, overall excited to see how the new tactics work as sliders annoyed the hell out of me but wish I could play a game fully developed and had its roots at the heart of the game not one with all these bells and whist,es which is about making money and not designed for the benefit of the customer