Will SI ever be able to include the J-Leagues?

[jujigatame]

I know Konami has the exclusive license but how does this differ from the EPL's agreement with EA Sports? SI is still able to use EPL players as long as it doesn't use official kits/logos/etc. Does Konami's exclusivity agreement expire at some point?

Considering SI's commitment to thoroughness it seems like it would be a major priority for them to fill this hole in the DB.

[Herbert Fandel]

I know Konami has the exclusive license but how does this differ from the EPL's agreement with EA Sports? SI is still able to use EPL players as long as it doesn't use official kits/logos/etc. Does Konami's exclusivity agreement expire at some point?

Considering SI's commitment to thoroughness it seems like it would be a major priority for them to fill this hole in the DB.

I know this doesn't answer any of your questions, and I apologise for that, but I really wouldn't be keen for SI to pursue it if it would cost them ANY money.

After all, the DB is editable and it is very easy to download a community made league which should function more or less as well as the real one would anyway. I don't consider it a notable whole in the DB at all.

[jujigatame]

Actually I've had awful luck in the past with downloadable J-Leagues. The creators tend to put all kinds of funny stuff in them. The last one I played with pretty much vastly overrated the PA of basically every U20 player and before you knew it the big European clubs were overrun by Japanese players. I also played with one a few years ago that snuck in a couple of ridiculous superpowered Hong Kong players who I can only assume were the mod's creators in game form.

I also disagree that it's not a notable hole. The J-League is the biggest league in Asia, and the biggest league not included in FM by a wide margin. It's like if FM was missing the Swiss league, or the Romanian league, and all the players therein. Japan may not be an elite soccer nation but they are perennial World Cup qualifiers.

[Guest]

I would like to see the J-League included & I also agree that user created competition edits can be a risky proposition.

SI have always maintained that they would like to have access to more official licenses but cost has to be a major factor, it's always struck me as odd that SEGA have been unable to come to an arrangement with the relevant parties to purchase access to a third party license as the two publishers do not directly compete in this genre.

[soccer.joel]

Japan is a rising nation in world football and is increasingly producing more top class players. I feel not having their league makes the world of football different from what it is now, as only 0-2 newgens come out of the country each year, which means less world class are being produced

[jujigatame]

@Barside:

Well that was sort of part of my question. Clearly there must be "levels" of licensing since they're able to use EPL players even though the league is not fully licensed and they can't use team kits or logos. I don't think Konami has plans for a soccer management sim so you'd think they'd be flexible, but I guess not. Maybe they think Japan would catch FM fever and abandon console soccer entirely? FM is quite the time eater, after all.

[Guest]

What determines whether an unofficial simulation of the league(s) can be included is generally down the local legal position in each nation & maybe in the case of the J-League a little bit of corporate respect.

[cruyff14]

Could SI not maybe create a sort of mock league and the players etc.. Like PES does with teams and players by changing the names and then the editors could just work their magic for the rest of us perhaps?

[duduric]

Well, and Konami don't even include the J-League in their games.... only in some overpriced japan-only DLCs. What a waste.

[magicmastermind124]

As far as I am aware this is not a Konami issue, but a SEGA issue as they already release a game about managing a pro team in Japan.

I remember one of the later CM's had the Japanese leagues included, back when there were opening and closing stages.

[jujigatame]

Are you talking about this?

http://www.gamespot.com/j-league-pro-soccer-club-o-tsukurou-7-euro-plus/

Because if SEGA is really the one holding FM back from including the J-League that would be very, very disappointing.

Can any mods or SI folk clarify?

[magicmastermind124]

I doubt they could clarify due to legal reasons.

[jujigatame]

In what way could it possibly be illegal to explain the difficulties/obstacles in obtaining a J-League license for FM?

[Guest]

Never knew about that game, I guess the misconception about this being a Konami related issue could be seen as quite handy.

In what way could it possibly be illegal to explain the difficulties/obstacles in obtaining a J-League license for FM?

The legal issue would be in having SI comment on another SEGA published management style title that has a J-League license & on that note this thread's future has probably been decided.

If that is the sole reason for the J-League not being in FM then it's really disappointing.

[Shakes]

Surely they could just include the League-J competition from the Apjan nation like has traditionally been the method of license dodging?

[jujigatame]

I've been to Apjan. Great sushi.

[jujigatame]

So Sega is releasing a new version of its Japanese football management game this month:

http://www.giantbomb.com/sakatsuku-pro-soccer-club-o-tsukurou/3030-42888/

Is this really the reason we don't have the J-League in FM?

[le_crab]

Slightly off the point but still on licenses. Now that the SPL is the SPFL does that mean that all Scottish teams will be fully licensed and not just the prem teams?

[Psvilla]

Would be great to have the J-League in the game but I guess we will have to wait in hope.

[kandersson]

Would love to see J-league back in FM. It's arguably the best league in Asia, and Japan NT has won 3 of last 4 Asian Cups as well, so it's not just a 'minor' shortcoming imo.

I remember it was present in CM 03-04, and I'm sure Konami was already making those J-league games so not sure I understand the big issue (maybe it's 'only' money!). It's a shame as I can confirm it's been impossible for me to find working Japanese DB/leagues for FM!

[Scab]

Yup. I miss the J-League.

[Lawlore]

It seems that the series is doing pretty well for itself- "Let's Make a Pro Soccer Club arrive Saka" is due out on October 10th on PS3 and Vita, while the PSP version, "Let's Make a J-League Pro Soccer Club! 8 EURO PLUS" is due out on the October 17th, this year. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be any trace of Konami involvement on the game's site- only Sega.

That said, Konami were definitely involved in previous iterations. Having bought one of the few editions that made it to Europe (for PS2), it's a very Japanese take on football management- very RPG-like. Unique concept, but a lot of frustrating menu navigation, if I remember rightly.

[KDR]

The legal issue would be in having SI comment on another SEGA published management style title that has a J-League license & on that note this thread's future has probably been decided.

Not sure it'd be illegal, as such. There may or may not be a binding agreement (of course if there is, then it'd become illegal to mention anything), but either way it wouldn't do to annoy the publishers (though someone else would surely step in, with the units FM shifts per year?).

[Nik_Dut]

I wouldn't really expecting it. I just accept that the best experience in playing FM is only by playing british club.

[forameuss]

Slightly off the point but still on licenses. Now that the SPL is the SPFL does that mean that all Scottish teams will be fully licensed and not just the prem teams?

I may be being slow, but how exactly are the other Scottish teams not fully licensed?

Not sure it'd be illegal, as such. There may or may not be a binding agreement (of course if there is, then it'd become illegal to mention anything), but either way it wouldn't do to annoy the publishers (though someone else would surely step in, with the units FM shifts per year?).

I'm not sure it's the sort of black and white legal/illegal to talk about it - it's more a case that it could get SI into trouble to talk about it. always easier to err on the side of caution with these things, then there's no danger.

As for the licence, these things happen. No two licenses are often the same I imagine, so Konami's/SEGA's one for Japan is probably riddled with conditions. I'm sure SI could use it, but it probably wouldn't be financially viable. I seriously doubt that the decision not to include the league is made because SI don't want it in there. It's either truly impossible from a licensing perspective, or just not financially viable. Fair enough for me.

Anyway, those that are really, really disappointed by it, could always go out and make an edited league that doesn't suffer from the problems others do. I know some edited J-League structures are prone to problems, but the editor is there mostly for this very reason.

[milnerpoint]

Only the SPL was licensed, not the divisions below.

Id doubt this will change, although i could be wrong.

[forameuss]

Only the SPL was licensed, not the divisions below.

Id doubt this will change, although i could be wrong.

Again, I'm probably being apocalyptically slow, but what difference did that make? Just the correct names of the leagues and sponsors?

[milnerpoint]

Again, I'm probably being apocalyptically slow, but what difference did that make? Just the correct names of the leagues and sponsors?

Not a huge difference. You got the real club badges, real strips, photos of players who had submitted a picture. Full use of the SPL logo's and stuff like that. Not really anything that changes the game, unless your one who pays a lot of attention to stuff like that. For someone like me it makes almost no difference, others its a bigger deal.

[forameuss]

Not a huge difference. You got the real club badges, real strips, photos of players who had submitted a picture. Full use of the SPL logo's and stuff like that. Not really anything that changes the game, unless your one who pays a lot of attention to stuff like that. For someone like me it makes almost no difference, others its a bigger deal.

Fair enough. These days you could probably offer the SFA a fiver and they'd snap your hand off for licensing. Can't say I've noticed a massive difference, and these things are easily edited back in. Partick Thistle are in the Premiership this season anyway, so no need to worry about the lower divisions

[jujigatame]

Would love to see J-league back in FM. It's arguably the best league in Asia, and Japan NT has won 3 of last 4 Asian Cups as well, so it's not just a 'minor' shortcoming imo.

I remember it was present in CM 03-04, and I'm sure Konami was already making those J-league games so not sure I understand the big issue (maybe it's 'only' money!). It's a shame as I can confirm it's been impossible for me to find working Japanese DB/leagues for FM!

Yea I think this is the biggest hole in the DB by a pretty wide margin. Not only do you miss out on the league itself, it also screws up the AFC Champions League and robs the Japanese national team of much of its talent, especially veterans like Kengo Nakamura and Tulio.

I just wish SI would clarify the licensing situation. I always thought it was because Konami had exclusive J-League rights for the PE series but if Sega is publishing some sort of RPG-style J-League management sim then that can't be the whole story.

BTW, I've found Japan DBs online but they're always very iffy and ultimately end up hurting realism more than helping it. I downloaded one for FM11 that had 2 phony superplayers inserted into it, presumably the DB's creators. I downloaded another for FM13 and after 2-3 seasons Japanese players were littered around Europe because the creator had set outrageously high PAs for all the U19 internationals.

[milnerpoint]

I doubt SI are going ever tell the story on here, they dont have to and certainly wont risk any legal issues it could bring up.

There are a number of things it could be.

First off we have no idea if the licenses work the same way over there as they do here. Secondly we dont know if the license they have is exclusive to the one game they make, or that EA or some one else doesnt hold the main license and wont let SI do anything with it, same sort of way that EA prevent SEGA from getting any German licenses, only in the EU there are other free trade agreements that mean they can use the player names.

Without being legal experts in licensing its really hard to say.

[jujigatame]

I suppose you're right but I still don't understand why clarifying the licensing situation to the customers would be a problem. It doesn't seem like the type of deal that would have a non-disclosure agreement attached. That is, unless Sega really is deliberately holding SI back from implementing the J-League for the express purpose of boosting sales of the Sakatsuku game, and they've prohibited SI from disclosing this for fear of angering the FM customer base. Sounds a little far fetched, though.

[milnerpoint]

It might not be so far fetched. SEGA want their game over there to sell well, its got a better chance if promoted as having exclusive content, if SI say that it would annoy their customer base and perhaps cost a few sales.

Keep in mind im not saying that is the issue at all, but its one of a number of possibilities.

It could also be a case of SEGA only being allowed to use the license for that specific game, so even if they wanted to let SI use it they wouldnt be allowed too.

It must work differently over there, as has been pointed out they dont have the EPL license but use the real names and leagues, they dont have any german licenses, but can use the players who play in the league and the team names, so there must be something that prevents them using any J league info at all.

[Robsy1990]

Actually I've had awful luck in the past with downloadable J-Leagues. The creators tend to put all kinds of funny stuff in them. The last one I played with pretty much vastly overrated the PA of basically every U20 player and before you knew it the big European clubs were overrun by Japanese players. I also played with one a few years ago that snuck in a couple of ridiculous superpowered Hong Kong players who I can only assume were the mod's creators in game form.

I also disagree that it's not a notable hole. The J-League is the biggest league in Asia, and the biggest league not included in FM by a wide margin. It's like if FM was missing the Swiss league, or the Romanian league, and all the players therein. Japan may not be an elite soccer nation but they are perennial World Cup qualifiers.

On the whole, I agree with you. I've just played six seasons in the J2/J1 in FM12 on a custom Japanese database. Overall, the database is great, and kudos to the creator. BUT, the PA and attribute distribution of most players in the database need serious work. 8/10 DMs will have almost identical attributes, for example. Same with strikers. I found the only way to get a fair balance was to holiday some years before starting with my manager.

The other serious issue is scheduling. The AFC Champions League final clashed with a World Cup qualifier, thus robbing me (and the opposition) of our best players. The Suruga Bank Championship had the same issue. I also don't think the Nabisco Cup is right at all - none of the AFC qualifiers get a bye, as in real life, and I'm almost certain the scheduling is incorrect. The prize money for winning competitions also seems a bit off.

These issues would be resolved (I would hope) with an official J League database. As said previous, it is the most glaring omission from FM in terms of playable leagues, and having spent a sustained period of time over there this year, I can say with certainty that westerners underestimate how much Japanese people love football. Some locals I met even said they think it's about to overtake baseball as the most popular sport in the country.

In real life I truly believe the Japanese national team isn't far from becoming a superpower. Over the last ten years the game has hugely developed over there. Japanese and Korean players are renowned for having 'great engines' and work-rate, but have frequently been lambasted for perceived lack of skill. The way Japanese youth academies have been set up is addressing that issue very quickly - Keisuke Honda and Shinji Kagawa are some of the first products of this new system. Technically brilliant footballers who can make a big impression on the international stage and in the World's best leagues. Takefusa Kubo at Barcelona is supposed to be a talent genuinely comparable to Messi.

Obviously how much they love it, and how many copies FM would sell over there are two different matters. But I would love to play an official J League database. Obviously at present there is nothing SI can do, but if/when Konami's rights to the J League expire it would be so great if it were able to be included in FM.

[kabajingai]

1.) Sega only hold the licensing rights to the J-League for commercial use in Japan. Nowhere else.

2.) The J-League is a bit unlike the Premier League or Serie A as clubs are limited to the amount of commercial revenue they can acquire. Clubs also cannot gain revenue from sources outside of Japan. This is basically to protect clubs from being bought out by some foreign billionaire or to have the club lose its local identity. My team Kawasaki Frontale are mainly backed by Fujitsu (which was founded in Kawasaki.) Pretty much all clubs in Japan are backed up by Japanese companies.

What this means is, that the J-League cannot be in the position to make money for something displaying its product that is sold overseas. Obviously you have adverts for Coke Zero or McDonalds at J-League games but this is because it is aimed at the Japanese market and all they money goes to the company based in Japan for its Japanese consumers.

I'm aware that this does sound incredibly stupid but this is the reality unfortunately.

[CaptainBanana]

Every years i exept it as a new licence, but every years i'm disapointed.

The reason are really blur.. I heard Konamy got exclusive right, but all CM, include the last one released in 2011 have Japan league 1&2. And sega release a japan football management on PS3.

The question was asked to Miles in a french interview and he just answered: ask to lawyers. :confused:

I could use japan amateur DB but its all bugy, with missing tabs and stuff.

[jujigatame]

1.) Sega only hold the licensing rights to the J-League for commercial use in Japan. Nowhere else.

That would certainly explain it. Although it doesn't explain why those rights haven't been acquired for a worldwide release, whether it's because Sega is unable or unwilling.

[Robsy1990]

Every years i exept it as a new licence, but every years i'm disapointed.

The reason are really blur.. I heard Konamy got exclusive right, but all CM, include the last one released in 2011 have Japan league 1&2. And sega release a japan football management on PS3.

The question was asked to Miles in a french interview and he just answered: ask to lawyers. :confused:

I could use japan amateur DB but its all bugy, with missing tabs and stuff.

With the updates to FM14's editor I think the missing tabs issue could be resolved.

[kabajingai]

I will also add that if its some small game that nobody knows about - the J-League wouldn't give a toss if you put a Japanese league in there. Because FM is the biggest football manager game out there, its a bit hard to plead ignorance. Especially now that you are working alongside a major Japanese company to help distribute your game.

Championship Manager had the J-League in there (and FM up until 2004?) because it was pretty low-profile. I think once the J-League got wind of it, they told Eidos to remove it.

[realtimshady]

1.) Sega only hold the licensing rights to the J-League for commercial use in Japan. Nowhere else.

2.) The J-League is a bit unlike the Premier League or Serie A as clubs are limited to the amount of commercial revenue they can acquire. Clubs also cannot gain revenue from sources outside of Japan. This is basically to protect clubs from being bought out by some foreign billionaire or to have the club lose its local identity. My team Kawasaki Frontale are mainly backed by Fujitsu (which was founded in Kawasaki.) Pretty much all clubs in Japan are backed up by Japanese companies.

What this means is, that the J-League cannot be in the position to make money for something displaying its product that is sold overseas. Obviously you have adverts for Coke Zero or McDonalds at J-League games but this is because it is aimed at the Japanese market and all they money goes to the company based in Japan for its Japanese consumers.

I'm aware that this does sound incredibly stupid but this is the reality unfortunately.

Actually, it could prove to be brilliant, especially if you look from the perspective of Japan as a rising football power. Why? It provides a foundation for the league to grow uniformly, to the benefit of the whole. It's a lot easier to go from the position "Clubs cannot make revenue from sources outside Japan" to something like "Revenue sources outside japan must be directed through the J-league and shared among member clubs", than it would be to impose order on a free-for-all. Obviously I can't know that's the direction they'll take (I'm just a dude on the internet), but the possibility is there.

I don't know squat about the J-league, so I could be way off base here. But I agree with Robsy1990 in his observation that their NT isn't far from becoming a superpower. They were only a PK crossbar away from the round of 8 or better in 2010, and their women were champions in 2011. As they rise in stature, it will be harder for SI to leave them out.

[milnerpoint]

That would certainly explain it. Although it doesn't explain why those rights haven't been acquired for a worldwide release, whether it's because Sega is unable or unwilling.

They wont be allowed, if what the other poster is saying is true, which i think it will be, SEGA's hands are tied, they cannot get the license to release the J-League world wide.

[Lawlore]

Thinking back a few years, SWOS also had a specific issue with Japan, with all of the team names changed by a letter or two- the only country in the world where that happened. That seems to suggest that this is a pretty long-standing situation.

[milnerpoint]

Ah SWOS, what a game!

[Wiggins Top Boys]

The official line from Konami on J-League is that they don't think there would be enough interest to justify including it in the PES version of the game but it's obvious that any licenses would do for PES so there's more to it than that.

[CaptainBanana]

They wont be allowed, if what the other poster is saying is true, which i think it will be, SEGA's hands are tied, they cannot get the license to release the J-League world wide.

But why CM have the license? :confused:

Championship Manager had the J-League in there (and FM up until 2004?) because it was pretty low-profile. I think once the J-League got wind of it, they told Eidos to remove it.

Eidos never removed japan league, japan league was still in CM in 2010 and i was the japan researcher in 2011 and 2012 even if no more game got released on pc.

[milnerpoint]

But why CM have the license? :confused:

They never had the license, they just used the information until they were told they could no longer do so.

As explained above CM was no where near as big as FM now is, so its likely no one cared they were using J League data, when the game became bigger and more people became aware of them using the data they would have either been warned they could be liable for damages, or they were told to just stop using it.

I could make a game tomorrow using the data and if i sold 10 copies no one would bother me, if i sold 100,000 i would be quickly pulled up over using the data.

[CaptainBanana]

I was japan researcher on cm til 2012 and I never heard of any complain from the jfa..

[milnerpoint]

You wouldnt have been made privy to any converstaions between SEGA and SI about this so thats no surprise.

[forameuss]

1.) Sega only hold the licensing rights to the J-League for commercial use in Japan. Nowhere else.

2.) The J-League is a bit unlike the Premier League or Serie A as clubs are limited to the amount of commercial revenue they can acquire. Clubs also cannot gain revenue from sources outside of Japan. This is basically to protect clubs from being bought out by some foreign billionaire or to have the club lose its local identity. My team Kawasaki Frontale are mainly backed by Fujitsu (which was founded in Kawasaki.) Pretty much all clubs in Japan are backed up by Japanese companies.

What this means is, that the J-League cannot be in the position to make money for something displaying its product that is sold overseas. Obviously you have adverts for Coke Zero or McDonalds at J-League games but this is because it is aimed at the Japanese market and all they money goes to the company based in Japan for its Japanese consumers.

I'm aware that this does sound incredibly stupid but this is the reality unfortunately.

To be honest, that sounds as far from stupid as you could get - sounds very sensible to me in the world of money trumping everything.

[adampvfc]

I would love to see the J League in the game again! It's a league I follow regularly, they are producing some great players and becoming better in international football.