Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[Cleon]

So I've started a new online game as Spurs as my mate is an Arsenal fan and chose them.

I'm using the same tactics that I developed using this thread and previously it managed to produce the kind of football in this video - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334248-Understanding-Your-Tactic-The-Discussion?p=8576760&viewfull=1#post8576760 that I posted in this very thread.

Despite Spurs having better players than Saints, I'm struggling to replicate it. I'm particularly struggling to break down stubborn teams.

However I am wondering how big an effect the new to the team aspect is?

I've only played 9 games so far. I Think I've had 4 wins and 4 defeats beating Norwich 5-0, Everton 3-2. Man City 3-0 (away as well) and Bordeaux 2-1 away. (plus a 2-0 Cup win away at Newcastle with a B team)and then loosing 1-0 to WBA, 1-0 to Chelsea, 1-0 to Anzhi and 4-1 to Newcastle.

Leaving the Newcastle game aside (where they scored pretty much every chance and my whole team played badly) the other 3 defeats followed the same pattern, I had decent possession but struggled to create chances.

Add in the fact that Bale plus my new signings Ayew and Jovetic have been injured pretty much since game one, will my team settle down a bit and become a bit more consistent once they have got used to me, the new tactics and new players?

I use the Pochettino inspired shouts similar to what Cleon outlines at the start of this thread pushing up high, hassling to win the ball back high up the pitch. With a quick defensive line and probably the best sweeper keeper in the game it seemed like a good fit for Spurs. Are there some tweaks try without dramatically altering my style that will help against deeper defensive teams?

Is the tactic all fluid in all areas now? In pre-season did you try and blend the new signing into the side by using team cohesion? If its no to either one of these then that could be an issue.

As for playing against deeper sides who sit back and soak up pressure then hit you on the counter, you need to make sure you have players running who are creating space. So playing higher up the pitch doesn't always work because there is no space to run into because the opposition are compact. So if you don't have much movement from deeper areas yourself you'll be predictable and easy to mark against.

[tajj 7]

Is the tactic all fluid in all areas now? In pre-season did you try and blend the new signing into the side by using team cohesion? If its no to either one of these then that could be an issue.

As for playing against deeper sides who sit back and soak up pressure then hit you on the counter, you need to make sure you have players running who are creating space. So playing higher up the pitch doesn't always work because there is no space to run into because the opposition are compact. So if you don't have much movement from deeper areas yourself you'll be predictable and easy to mark against.

Yeh the tactic is fluid in all areas and I had team cohesion on. I'm about 7 games or so from the end of the season, sitting in fourth and I got to the league semi and have both FA Cup and Europa league semi finals to play so I've not had a bad season but I'm just not 100% happy with my tactics.

Having Bale out for 6 months with 5 different injuries hasn't helped.

I think one of my main issues has been my midfield trio balance, I like to have both an AP and a DLP but Dembele hasn't really worked in either role for me so getting a proper DLP in the summer will be a priority.

I've been developing a more direct 4-4-1-1 with Bale and Lennon bombing up the wings as more traditional out and out wingers.

From what you've said I might look at a second set of pre-set shouts for home games against defensive teams that don't have the 'push up' and 'hassle opponents' instructions, which should mean with the 'Counter' starting strategy the pitch should be a bit less congested.

[vkastanas]

... you have players running who are creating space ... there is no space to run into because the opposition are compact ... much movement from deeper areas ...

As you mention the above quite often, is it possible to understand if my team has enough movement from the game analysis tab?

[Cleon]

As you mention the above quite often, is it possible to understand if my team has enough movement from the game analysis tab?

Yes from movement and the passing sections are useful because you'll see the areas he attempts to pass from. It should also be visible when you watch the match too. If players are always high up the pitch and marked then chances of them making runs will be very slim.

[worthit]

Hi guys,

need help on better OVERLOAD/AOATTACK tactics to chase goals desperately.

my steps are

1) change to fluid

2) change to overload

3) more direct

4) have my wide players + AP all to ATT

5) depends on the strictness of ref n no. of yellows i have i'll change to hard tackling.

anyway tips for improvement/changes?

Thanks!

[mitjamvp]

Hey,

i went through the entire thread several times and every time i do i find some new interesting and helpfull stuff.

I am using the 4-1-2-2-1 formation and i am a manager of a team called Banat in serbian second tier I always pick random teams, its more fun ). I use either counter or control since. I apologise for not telling you awful a lot about the tactic but it is quite simmilar to yours (well it is more or less yours).

Once my players got used to the tactic, it brought me good results. I am first in the league, hoping to gain promotion to the top division.

But one formation is giving me a lot of problems. 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree formation, the one that AC Milan used to use. They manage to overrun my midfield 3 and their AMCs cause too much trouble to my defence and DMC.

I did however manage to beat it twice both times using 4-1-4-1, a very defensive formation where i just hope for a goal and that my defensive wall holds up. But watching those 2 matches i know it was more or less luck, since the opponent gets more chances, even clear-cut. My wingbacks cant really cross, but they do good job defensively. One of them was retrained to play there, started as DC.

When opponent attacks me with their fullbacks theres none left to mark them, so their crosses arent really contested. Only one of my DCs can jump but he is slow and poor at marking and tackling so i cant really say he is a great DC. He does well though against other formations due to the tactic.

--------GK--------

WBd-BPd-CDd-WBa

-------DMd-------

----CMa--DLPs----

Ws-------------IFa/or s

-------DLP--------

as you can see my tactic is quite simmilar to yours with few changes. I am not using an advanced playmaker, because he just didint seem enough attacking. I dont really have players with good enough creativity and decision to play there so i just set it to CMa, as now theres someone attacking the space between the flank where the winger is and the centre where the IF cuts in. I know majority of you use trequarista but i really dont think i have a player who could play as one. So i just use my striker, who could one day be great, there as a DLF.

[tajj 7]

^ That 4-3-2-1 formation will be very narrow IIRC, so get your team to play narrower with shouts and then use the 'exploit the flanks' and maybe the 'look for overlap' shout as well because you have more wide players.

[SJ234]

I am currently struggling in the big games. My defence can't seem to pass the ball out of the back and I get dominated away from home. Set up: SK(D), fb (s), Cb(c+x), WB (a); DM (d), AP (a), DLP(s); W (A), CF(s), AP (A). Shorter, more expressive, press more, drilled, more roaming. Generally in these matches I have used a counter strategy. Any ideas?

I would post screenshots but I am not on that computer

[spaced33]

What a great thread! It (along with some posts by wwwfan on team talks) has totally changed the way I play FM. For the first time I have a tactic that I understand fully and am adapting to the game dynamically. Went 2-0 down away to Olympiakis in the 25th min. Made some changes to neutralize their threats and play to my strengths and went into halftime 4-2 up and ended up winning 8-2. Played Chelsea at Stamford Bridge and eked out a 1-0 win despite 42% possession (was at around 35% for most of the game). This is deceptive though cos they had 7 shots with none on target and no ccc's. we had nine shots, 7 on goal and 3 ccc's. Hazard was ripping my defense apart for the first 25 mins but then put both fb's on defend duty and had the bwm on the same side as him - was tricky cos he was swapping sides but completely neutralized him. I have rediscovered my love for FM

Edit: I am playing as Man Utd

[Gooner SJ]

Nevermind, I've sorted it now.

[Jon MUFC]

Hi Cleon and everyone else!

I'm managing Grasshopper Zurich in Switzerland and doing great at home. I play a very simple, balanced standard system with short passing, drill crosses, mid tempo and narrow 4-1-2-2-1 (with inside forwards on the wing and a DM) and it's working wonders, having 60% possession at home every game and 15+ shots.

However, I'm really struggling away from home. Keep ending up with 35% possession on average, only 2 or 3 shots and either drawing 0-0 or getting beat, creating nothing. Basically a complete contrast to my home form! Anybody got some tips on what I can do away? Should i go counter? rigid/fluid? wider? more direct? Any help would be great. Sorry for lack of screenshots, i"ll try and add some tomorrow.

Cheers guys

[Gooner SJ]

That's certainly one option but I think you'd be better asking yourself what the strengths of the 442 are and what it relies on to work.....

Wingers!!!!!

The wingers are key to the 442 and are what determines how successful its applied. Cut off the supply to the wide men and the strikers will have a quiet game because they'll not be getting the supply.

So you would tight mark the wingers in the OPI's? What about midfielders though? Seems an AP-A could still get through and be deadly if tight marking the wingers somehow compromised the shape.

[Cleon]

So you would tight mark the wingers in the OPI's? What about midfielders though? Seems an AP-A could still get through and be deadly if tight marking the wingers somehow compromised the shape.

I'd be more inclined to specific man mark the wingers. I don't use OI's

[Gooner SJ]

I'd be more inclined to specific man mark the wingers. I don't use OI's

I read that in your other post. I tried that though, and I swear I then noticed players getting double-teamed by my defenders, which I attributed to one being on man marking and the other on zonal marking. Can you mix the two? Have zonal marking in the tactic (team), but then specifically mark within the player's instructions?

[Cleon]

I read that in your other post. I tried that though, and I swear I then noticed players getting double-teamed by my defenders, which I attributed to one being on man marking and the other on zonal marking. Can you mix the two? Have zonal marking in the tactic (team), but then specifically mark within the player's instructions?

Players will get double teamed depending on their teamwork. The higher the attribute the more likely it'll happen.

As for the marking question, have a read of this http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334646-Zonal-vs-Man-marking it explains the marking perfectly

[WHUBen]

Very good thread. I am currently crystal palace about 10 games into the 1st season, I used the comparison page to see what tactics I would employ. I mainly used a 4231

formation with stand off more (one of the worst work rates in the league) More Direct Passing style (one of the best passing in the league) More expressive (I may need to change) My crossing style is drilled (one of the worst teams of heading the ball)

I used a standard/balance philosphy. I started really well at the start of season winning 4 of my 1st 5 games, but i have recently started to struggle against teams. I usedZaha as a IF and Balasie as a Winger, with Andre Moritz in AP Support, with Charlie Austin (Advanced Forward) I feel that the team has pace to burn espically on the wings. LB full back is on Attack (same side as zaha) RB is on full back support. 2 centre midfielders are williams (centre mid support) jedinak (bwm defend)

I want to engage a more counter attacking style, but because my team does not have good work rates, i feel pressing more up the pitch will open gaps for the opposition to exploit. Any suggestions how i could implement a counter attacking style to the team without pressing the opposition, I feel that i will cause more trouble on the counter because of the wide play (zaha & bolasie)

also any shouts that i could use to help me with this tactic?

thanks in advance.

[mitjamvp]

Hey again guys.

I did try out counter attacking tactic (simmilar to yours but with tweaks in formation and team instructions as my team is completely different from yours). But as my teams reputation grew i got an impression that opponent will play more and more defensive and due to lack of pace in my team and opponents defensive or counter attacking tactic i had to make a change. My team is hardly better then other teams, we lack some quality players but we do have some players who were brought to the team young and developed into the players i need.

I did manage to get into the champions league (the team is really poor considering they start in serbian second division), but in the league i just couldnt do it that well. (Not that i am losing too many matches but i dont really see that spark from the earlier months when we were almost unbeatable).

So now i switched to control, tweaked the formation a bit and it worked quite well against the best team in league who has great players and they didnt even get a clear chance for a goal. We even had 60% of the ball possesion (not that i am saying its amazingly important but it is comparable to Osasuna having more ball possesion against Barcelona).

So i am now trying out this:

I noticed on the report site that i conceded 16 goals after a cross or a pass from the left side and only 2 from the right (watching from a defensive perspective). I did try pushing forward, to reduce the space there but it didnt work. So now i just use man marking on the left side . IF and WBL are the only players that man mark opponent and i have to say it works quite well. I am not really sure if my Anchorman will stay there, i wanted to make his main job to cover the space behing my main playmaker and help WBL when needed.

[misterawesome]

Has this forum been closed? I have been trying to make a posting but am getting "forbidden" messages from the server.

[Cleon]

Has this forum been closed? I have been trying to make a posting but am getting "forbidden" messages from the server.

Clear you cache and then log back into the site and it should fix it.

[Ackter]

Sometimes it helps to paste what you want to post into Notepad, then copy it from there back into here.

It removes any unneeded formatting that can be causing problems.

[misterawesome]

Hey everyone. I posted on this forum several months ago, and what I learned helped turn my game experience around. I'm back because after years of applying what I've learned to become the most dominant team in Europe, I'm off to a sluggish start and facing tactical issues I haven't faced before.

I play with Spurs, and employ a 4-2-3-1 (both shallow and deep).

I sold Gylfi Sigurdsson and replaced him with Gotze, believing he was perfect in my squad. Here he is in 2016:

I play with a Trequarista striker, and my AMC as an AP-Attack alongside an Inside Forward (Bale) and Winger (Hulk) out wide.

This season, I've been struggling away from home - drawing/losing against mid-table teams who are playing narrow, with either MCs or DCs almost overlapping each other. An example of opponent positioning:

Typically, the shouts I use are: Work Ball Into Box, Run at Defense, Retain Possession and player wider/narrower depending on my opponents shape.

This all leaves me with a few big questions:

Am I getting the best out of Gotze? He's been off to a slow/cold start, as he's struggling to blend into the squad. His role raises some questions about the rest of my attack, though. Sigurdsson had low teamwork, but his finishing/long shot skills allowed that position to score in the event Hamsik was getting marked out of the game. I got Gotze to be less of a scorer and more of a distributor (better dribbling, teamwork and passiong), thinking that he won't try to score as frequently, causing congestion with Hamsik up top and Bale cutting in from wide.

Should I consider using Gotze as an AP/Support, with Bale/Hulk both as Inside Forwards? Would they help spread the defense? My concern here is that some of my wide midfielders are more natural wingers, causing issues with rotation.

Is there a risk of having too many playmakers on the pitch - an AP as a MCr, the AP as AMC and the Trequarista?

[misterawesome]

Clear you cache and then log back into the site and it should fix it.

This worked. Thanks, Cleon!

[WayneRomney]

Great thread, great advice (especially the Shouts section, explains very well the different options).

I've deployed the same tactics as in the OP for Southampton and it's been working very well, although I had to buy some new players here and there. Only thing though, it seems to be alot more efficiant away from home. At St. Mary's I draw alot, more often than not. This, I suspect, is down to me not knowing Shouts very well. I especially find it difficult when playing against 10 men.

Have away wins against City and Chelsea to name a few. Currently 5th in the Prem with 10 rounds remaining. There is a gap though, which I can't fill. Still, good season.

[Cleon]

Hey everyone. I posted on this forum several months ago, and what I learned helped turn my game experience around. I'm back because after years of applying what I've learned to become the most dominant team in Europe, I'm off to a sluggish start and facing tactical issues I haven't faced before.

I play with Spurs, and employ a 4-2-3-1 (both shallow and deep).

I sold Gylfi Sigurdsson and replaced him with Gotze, believing he was perfect in my squad. Here he is in 2016:

I play with a Trequarista striker, and my AMC as an AP-Attack alongside an Inside Forward (Bale) and Winger (Hulk) out wide.

This season, I've been struggling away from home - drawing/losing against mid-table teams who are playing narrow, with either MCs or DCs almost overlapping each other. An example of opponent positioning:

Typically, the shouts I use are: Work Ball Into Box, Run at Defense, Retain Possession and player wider/narrower depending on my opponents shape.

This all leaves me with a few big questions:

Am I getting the best out of Gotze? He's been off to a slow/cold start, as he's struggling to blend into the squad. His role raises some questions about the rest of my attack, though. Sigurdsson had low teamwork, but his finishing/long shot skills allowed that position to score in the event Hamsik was getting marked out of the game. I got Gotze to be less of a scorer and more of a distributor (better dribbling, teamwork and passiong), thinking that he won't try to score as frequently, causing congestion with Hamsik up top and Bale cutting in from wide.

Should I consider using Gotze as an AP/Support, with Bale/Hulk both as Inside Forwards? Would they help spread the defense? My concern here is that some of my wide midfielders are more natural wingers, causing issues with rotation.

Is there a risk of having too many playmakers on the pitch - an AP as a MCr, the AP as AMC and the Trequarista?

I think the important question is how and why are you drawing/losing. Is it a case of you missing chances? Opposition hard to break down? Your MC's not defending properly and in turn causing you to get counter attacked?

Judging by the screenshot you've posted you don't really have any protection in the middle of the pitch so it is quite easy to bypass your midfield if needs be. Sure you use a BWM but he has very high closing down, so when he closes down high up the pitch like a headless chicken then the whole of the midfield is free and open for the opposition to exploit.

There is no such thing as too many playmakers on the pitch, however there is the wrong type of philosophy for those players. You currently use balanced yet have a lot of players who have roles which need them to dictate play or do a specific thing, Treq, AP etc. I think a rigid system suits this better and makes more sense than balanced. Have a read of this as it explains a lot better about philosophy;

http://thechalkboarddiaries.com/?p=657

From the roles/duties posted on your screenshot I can see a few issues. You use a IF, Treq and a AP in the front 4. Now 3 of these (those mentioned) all play in similar space, so you have too many players all going in the same area meaning you are reducing space for them to play in. Your front 4 aren't a team, they seem to be individuals because the roles they have don't really work as a unit. I'd look at this more because the way its currently set up is very easy to mark against as you have no runners. You have the Treq dropping deep to create space but then he has no room due to the IF and AP.

[Cleon]

Great thread, great advice (especially the Shouts section, explains very well the different options).

I've deployed the same tactics as in the OP for Southampton and it's been working very well, although I had to buy some new players here and there. Only thing though, it seems to be alot more efficiant away from home. At St. Mary's I draw alot, more often than not. This, I suspect, is down to me not knowing Shouts very well. I especially find it difficult when playing against 10 men.

Have away wins against City and Chelsea to name a few. Currently 5th in the Prem with 10 rounds remaining. There is a gap though, which I can't fill. Still, good season.

It could be a shout issue and lack of understanding them or it could be down to you trying to emulate the tactic in the OP. You have to realise it was designed for a very specific reason - To get Gareth Bale to score as many goals as possible, this was the only requirement. So if you don't have someone equally as good on the left then the whole concept of that tactic will not work to its full potential due to it been created for the AML to score the goals.

[WayneRomney]

It could be a shout issue and lack of understanding them or it could be down to you trying to emulate the tactic in the OP. You have to realise it was designed for a very specific reason - To get Gareth Bale to score as many goals as possible, this was the only requirement. So if you don't have someone equally as good on the left then the whole concept of that tactic will not work to its full potential due to it been created for the AML to score the goals.

Yes, I have made some changes to my tactic, particularly with the forward man, I have given him a Target Man role and it seems to be working with Lambert and Viatri as back-up. As far as left wingers go my I have three options: Lallana, Ramirez or Mayuka. Of these three it's Mayuka leading the scoring with 5 goals in the PL. I can't seem to get Ramirez going there and tend to deploy him in the AP role in the midfield.

The reason why I wanted to use yours as a basis was because I've struggled to find a balanced tactic, especially with teams such as Southampton. It never occured to me to play a counter based strategy, as I've had misconceptions about the whole counter-standard-control concept in the past.

I will however try to tweak it more to suit the players I have. Scared to do so tbh, because we are faring very well at the moment.

Any suggestions given the team that Southampton IRL at the moment? Regarding tactics...

Edit: I used the same basis for making a 4-2-3-1 with wingers. It's working in a sense that I'm able to kill off games easier playing at home. The AM© is getting a lot of room to score goals when I use Lambert as a treq. I still use counter/balanced, and it's looking good.

[misterawesome]

From the roles/duties posted on your screenshot I can see a few issues. You use a IF, Treq and a AP in the front 4. Now 3 of these (those mentioned) all play in similar space, so you have too many players all going in the same area meaning you are reducing space for them to play in. Your front 4 aren't a team, they seem to be individuals because the roles they have don't really work as a unit. I'd look at this more because the way its currently set up is very easy to mark against as you have no runners. You have the Treq dropping deep to create space but then he has no room due to the IF and AP.

If I'm understanding your comments, and the article, correctly, due to the high number of specialised player roles I should consider playing Rigid to allow those players to do their thing? Would doing so alleviate some of the fighting for space/lack of cohesion from my attacking core? I don't know if that is a function of the roles or the team instructions. I've played *very* effectively with this lineup for the past 2-3 seasons, so I'm trying to understand why it's going wrong (wrong being the subpar away from and the struggles of AMC play) all of a sudden. Would it help with team play if I put my AMC on support duty? Or would that be more redundant with the Trequarista's play up top?

[Cleon]

If I'm understanding your comments, and the article, correctly, due to the high number of specialised player roles I should consider playing Rigid to allow those players to do their thing? Would doing so alleviate some of the fighting for space/lack of cohesion from my attacking core? I don't know if that is a function of the roles or the team instructions. I've played *very* effectively with this lineup for the past 2-3 seasons, so I'm trying to understand why it's going wrong (wrong being the subpar away from and the struggles of AMC play) all of a sudden. Would it help with team play if I put my AMC on support duty? Or would that be more redundant with the Trequarista's play up top?

In previous seasons was you working your way up the league and wasn't challenging for the title or weren't a strong side? As you are Spurs I'm guessing you was top 4 side but now are the top side?

The reason I've asked the above is if you wasn't a strong side then teams will have been more attacking against you, so that automatically creates space as they are attacking you. But not all of a sudden if you are classed as the strong side then those same sides will not play more cautious against you meaning the natural space created by attacking you is no gone and could be why you are struggling. This also means because of the 2 MC's roles you are likely to be hit on the counter attack. You don't really have any midfield protection.

Regarding your front 4 all of them are attacking, so when you do attack all 4 are likely to be inline with each and be separated from the rest of the midfield and fullbacks. This is what I meant when I said look at your roles as they don't play as a team. You have no one dropping back or waiting to make the run. They'll basically move as a 4 all the time which isn't really good as you have no-one creating or using space.

[WayneRomney]

A huge thanks is in order to Cleon and other contributors ITT for reviving my interest in FM. I guess I'm the average FM gamer, if it's too easy I get bored, if it's too difficult I lose interest. I've been searching for inspiration for some time now, and I finally found it. And for the first time in my 8-9 year long interest in FM I really want to learn more.

When I first read the opening posts of this thread I realized that this is the kind of football I want my teams to play. It's logical, it's pretty straight forward and it's entertaining at the same time. Let me explain a little about my Southampton game to date and supplement with questions and feedback at the end of this post. Apologies for TL;DR.

I opted with these two tactics, firstly the one resembling Cleons Spurs tactics:

And then I made a backup, tweaked to a 4-2-3-1:

Using the 4-1-2-2-1 I had some amazing results away from home, while I struggled a bit to kill off games at home and thus drawing a lot. This was down to two things; one is that this tactic is basically created for Gareth Bale, and I have Adam Lallana. Two is that I really didn't understand the shouts. Basically. So I tweaked and ended up using the 4-2-3-1 from about Xmas and out.

Finished the season on 6th place. Knocked out of both cups by City and United, nothing to complain about. We qualified for EL though and I had to expand the squad with better players. With a budget of £25m I was able to buy a few good players, like Garbiel Torje, Tom Ince, Kieran Trippier and Stanciu. From season 1 I already had Lucas Viatri, Nathan Dyer, Karim Guede to name a few. I also bought Yann Sommer in season 1.

Naturally teams in the PL are now more aware of me than before. Players like Viatri, Lallana and Dyer are also really struggling to follow up on a good debut season for instance. I'm really struggling to create chances, despite having possession and moving the ball around very nicely. See a typical game here:

This, I suspect, is down to the opposition figuring out how I play attacking wise. They are obviously able to close me down very well. In other words, I'm pleased with my play except for creating chances.

Here's a look at my team settings (No individual sliders have been touched by the way):

To top it off I was handed a very tough group in the EL: Anji, Shakhtar and Udinese. Needless to say I couldn't qualify for the knock-out stages and losses here also didn't help the moral. I'm currently in mid December and lying 9th in the league, flattering considering I've been really struggling to get results.

How would you guys go on from here? To develop this even further?

[Guest Satchy]

You might switch up your team passing to Default. I also use this formation, except with DLF(A) and a DLP(S) in midfield, and I also use a BPD. I think if you are playing the counter game you should have a DLP who can ping it forward with a couple of lethal passes each game. How do Wanyama and Cork look for those roles?

[WayneRomney]

You might switch up your team passing to Default. I also use this formation, except with DLF(A) and a DLP(S) in midfield, and I also use a BPD. I think if you are playing the counter game you should have a DLP who can ping it forward with a couple of lethal passes each game. How do Wanyama and Cork look for those roles?

Once I have a reasonable break between games I will try a Default passing. I've tried it earlier in the season, but not whole heartedly.

In fact, in Season 1 I used Cork as a DLP(S) (with Praet as back-up). I just changed this prior to the screen shot. Just to try something different.

Wanyama is a beast to be honest, either as a DM or a BWM(D). I use Karim Guede as back-up and he is also doing well there. Like I said above, Cork is alternating with the Belgian Praet and ratings wise doing OK. I haven't gotten around to really analyze their performances, although I have noticed that their defensive contribution is a little below average. Praet is also a pretty wee player, I'm considering buying a more physically gifted player in that role and move Praet in to the AP(A) role.

At the moment I cannot deploy a Ball Playing Defender since I really don't have any players capable of this role. I'm looking into getting a player like that in the January window, Nuytinck slipped my grasp in the summer window.

Thank you Satchy.

[Guest Satchy]

Once I have a reasonable break between games I will try a Default passing. I've tried it earlier in the season, but not whole heartedly.

Well there's two benefits I can think to using Default in your case. In general my FM philosophy is to view my team as a collection of individuals, and less as a group of robots. In certain situations having a shorter passing game as a team can be good. If you're up in the 2nd half and you want to shut the game down, then Retain Possession, Pass to Feet, and Take a Breather are good options. Setting the team to shorter passing also fits into this philosophy. I might also use that if I was wanting to play possession football as a philosophy, but not really for a counter attacking game. The other benefit is that you might limit your players from trying (and successfully completing) a long killer ball that could put you up in the game. I tend to leave this setting on default, then manipulate the passing distance/directness through shouts, and let my players play as individuals more. Default will still have a mix of short passes.

Wanyama is a beast to be honest, either as a DM or a BWM(D).

How does he look as far as a DLP though, that's what I was asking? Passing, Creativity, Decisions, some Flair, Composure?

PPM's are also crucially important. If you have a DLP with a "Plays Simple Passes", then you are going to be in trouble trying to implement a counter attack with them. I like to train my DLP's to "Tries Killer Balls Often".

[WayneRomney]

Here we have Wanyama:

I guess he could work there.

PPM's?

[Guest Satchy]

He seems much more a BWM or BBM to me. Passing is a bit low for a Prem. level DLP imo, but if he still has room to grow then you could train him to improve a bit. He seems a very good player though with his strength, stamina, and tackling. His long shots are also solid, which is why I think BBM might be a good choice, or CM with attack or auto.

You find the PPM's in the 'View Personal Details'. It will be on the bottom right, if he has any.

[robterrace]

This is one I'm currently developing, works pretty well, been a key constituent in my 110 game unbeaten run.

My tactic

My shouts..

My alternative shouts..

Although, some games I seem to make an absolute load of passes..

This is the heatmap though, which shows we're pushing well..

[Guest Satchy]

Your shouts set you up to play a lot of passes.

[robterrace]

Your shouts set you up to play a lot of passes.

Yep, we seem to play a lot more when the opposition stand off us.

[Rashidi]

@ Mighty Red, RTHerringbone

I don't know if you've seen this but that is why I play like this.

Any comments on the familiarity issue?

Thats really hard to achieve, unless you didn't follow the advice in this thread on preseason training.

[Reloaded]

Is it ever useful to have players set to 'Automatic' as opposed to Attack, Support or Defend?

[Falahk]

Is it ever useful to have players set to 'Automatic' as opposed to Attack, Support or Defend?

automatic make the player role adapt to the strategy you use (for example if you are using attacking strategy then the role would work exactly like an attack role of that type in that strategy)

[Reloaded]

Ah, right. Thanks Falahk. So many nuances (and things that are probably plainly obvious to others) that I don't yet comprehend. I made for myself a phenomenal tactic at Real Madrid, but I think some of it's flaws have been concealed by the sheer quality of my squad. Moving to another team has thrown up some difficulties with scoring in particular.

[misterawesome]

In previous seasons was you working your way up the league and wasn't challenging for the title or weren't a strong side? As you are Spurs I'm guessing you was top 4 side but now are the top side?

Yes. We have won the treble for three consecutive seasons.

Regarding your front 4 all of them are attacking, so when you do attack all 4 are likely to be inline with each and be separated from the rest of the midfield and fullbacks. This is what I meant when I said look at your roles as they don't play as a team. You have no one dropping back or waiting to make the run. They'll basically move as a 4 all the time which isn't really good as you have no-one creating or using space.

I thought that the Trequarista was the player to drop back and support play. If I play that AMC in a Support role, would that help to link up play? Or should I be looking to play the striker more as a DLF?

[Cleon]

Yes. We have won the treble for three consecutive seasons.

I thought that the Trequarista was the player to drop back and support play. If I play that AMC in a Support role, would that help to link up play? Or should I be looking to play the striker more as a DLF?

It's hard to say because I've not seen how they all play together. What you should do it pause the game when you have an attacking move and look at all your players positions. See who is advanced and who is hanging back making a late run. Do this several times throughout the game and you should have an understanding of who is doing what and if the roles/duties you use are the right ones. You can spot pretty quickly if a role is working or not by spending a few seconds pausing the game

[Sunndaihann]

could someone please just take a few minutes to explain the "strata" and player movement aspects of a tactic with player roles and examples . Thank you.

[RTHerringbone]

could someone please just take a few minutes to explain the "strata" and player movement aspects of a tactic with player roles and examples . Thank you.

Strata is just a fancy plural of stratum, it means in FM "the horizontal lines across the pitch".

I personally don't consider the Goalkeeper or Sweeper lines in this, so:

Line 1 runs from DL to DR

Line 2 runs from WBL to WBR

Line 3 from DML to DMR

Line 4 from ML to MR

Line 5 from AML to AMR

Line 6 from STL to STR

Rather than operate with one player in Line 1 passing to a player in Line 2, and then a player there passing to Line 3 in a sort of relay race, a good idea is to get movement between those lines via players running with the ball.

So a simple example would be to have a wingback in line 1, whose Runs From Deep is set to often and so he'll push beyond lines 2, 3, 4 and even 5 when you have possession.

All you need to do is make sure you have sufficient runners (and critically not too many) in a balanced way to generate that movement across the pitch.

[Sunndaihann]

Strata is just a fancy plural of stratum, it means in FM "the horizontal lines across the pitch".

I personally don't consider the Goalkeeper or Sweeper lines in this, so:

Line 1 runs from DL to DR

Line 2 runs from WBL to WBR

Line 3 from DML to DMR

Line 4 from ML to MR

Line 5 from AML to AMR

Line 6 from STL to STR

Rather than operate with one player in Line 1 passing to a player in Line 2, and then a player there passing to Line 3 in a sort of relay race, a good idea is to get movement between those lines via players running with the ball.

So a simple example would be to have a wingback in line 1, whose Runs From Deep is set to often and so he'll push beyond lines 2, 3, 4 and even 5 when you have possession.

All you need to do is make sure you have sufficient runners (and critically not too many) in a balanced way to generate that movement across the pitch.

Thank you Sir. Very helpful

[James9]

Okay, I'm going to try and explain a few things that I have learnt recently....... bear with me as when I try to explain a number of things it gets messy.

Sounds to me like you have some issues with a defence line and also the duties of your IF's.

Looking at your stats at a 15minutes or so (there is a reason Cleon does this) will give you a very good indication as to whether or not your front three are in the game....... I'm gonna take a punt here and tell you that your FC probably is, but your IF's are probably not. Also looking at the heatmap at this time and (in your head) imprinting them on eachother can tell you a world of things.

Choosing between IF(S) and IF(A) is key to getting them involved. Assuming no shouts, IF(S) will reduce both their RFD and their Mentality, this means that they will start deeper and are less likely to bomb forwards as SOON as you get the ball. At the 15 minute mark, my FC, if he is involved, is probably picking up around 10-15 passes or so. If your IF's are below 5 at this point then you need to consider switching. There is a caveat to this - if you're trying to break their defence line with quick breaks then just bear it in mind as you might not want them on (S).

I think I have just learnt a valuable lesson myself with the exact issues above...... I might not have, but I think I have. If you play against someone with a deep defence line and your Inside Forwards are (A) then they are going to be way way forward.... and probably out of contention of anything going on. Essentially there is no defence line to keep them pressed back and in the game. Obviously they wont move beyond the defence line (bar the odd offside) but if it's deep they are to far forwards. *EDIT* Another realisation, this is why sometime it can be good to attack or why attacking tactics are good against deep lines.... they force the entire play up. Your own high defence line will only push your team so far up, whereas a high defence line on an ATTACKING tactic is going to be much much higher, thus compressing the team to where it should be and allowing them to interact with each other again (THIS IS THE REASON I LOVE TRYING TO HELP.... IT MAKES ME THINK)

Therefore against a deep defence line, you should consider playing them as (S). It will start them deeper and taper their runs a little. This means that they will be more involved in what is going on and can then move forwards with the ball and either go for one/twos or make crosses or throughballs to the other IF or FC.

Contrast that to a High defence line. If the line is high, press your IF's forwards with (A). The defence line will hold them back AND most importantly keep them in play. However, and this is a nice however ..... it's through ball heaven at this point. A high opposition defence line and your IF(A)..... opportunity time.

Of course, if you want to keep it tight defensively, then you can still consider playing them as (S), which brings me to my next point......

One thing to look out for on the defensive side of things is your defence line. If you do not play "push up" or an equivalent setting and your Inside Forwards are (A) then there is likely to be a large gap between your wingers and your wingbacks...... this is normally bad. The reason so is that teams that tend to play deep also tend to have wingers that start deep. This means that their starting positions likely to be well short of your Wingbacks, thus when they get the ball, they will already be at pace by the time your wingbacks close them down. Two things normally happen here, they'll run past your wingbacks or they'll pass beyond them (read through-ball) as they are pulled out of position.

So, if you need to keep it tight, push up the defence line (usual rules can apply about doing this against fast strikers), this will close the gap between Wingers and Wingbacks. If you want it tighter still, then consider IF(S) instead of IF(A), this will push the IF's back and again, close the gap. Though, by the time you have done both of these you've kinda messed up your own game.

Something that is very handy at working this out, but could be considered slow and boring (did I mentioned that it's taken me 5 days to get to Jan 13 2013?) is to watch the goal highlights of their previous 2/3 games or where they tore someone apart or were torn apart themselves (thanks to Rashidi for this tip).

However the best way to establish this stuff is to watch the first 15/20 minutes of the game.

*EDIT*

Just saw your last comment about being deep despite pushing up...... I find this is 'normally' a very good indication that they are using a high defensive line AND are attacking. They are probably pressing hard too........ TURN ON THROUGHBALLS............

This is excellent Lam. I am really struggling with understanding FM13. So what i have done is delete all my save games and start to read this thread again and again to get more knowledge. I just wanted to know when you play with a high reputation team does it mean that most teams will start with a deep defence line. The only teams that might start with a high defence line would be the big teams So would you advice to start with the inside forwards on support duty when playing teams that will sit back (weaker teams) and inside forward attack when playing the stronger teams

[lam]

This is excellent Lam. I am really struggling with understanding FM13. So what i have done is delete all my save games and start to read this thread again and again to get more knowledge. I just wanted to know when you play with a high reputation team does it mean that most teams will start with a deep defence line. The only teams that might start with a high defence line would be the big teams So would you advice to start with the inside forwards on support duty when playing teams that will sit back (weaker teams) and inside forward attack when playing the stronger teams

Well, I tend to try and start with the tactic that I set up, which in this would have been (A). However, I am sure that at some point in this thread I mentioned that I would often switch duties and roles around depending on who I was playing. In the end I was rarely playing with two IF(A)'s. I would tend to use either an (S) or perhaps an AP(A). At first glance, they all have similar settings however they tend to have subtle yet very impactfull differences.

Bale was often better as an (S) as he would cross more (if you wanted that), Insigne was generally always an (A) unless he wasnt in the game. However I bought other players that excelled at making throughballs and they were AP(A/S).

If you are the stronger team then really you want to be imposing your game on them from the start.

I wouldn't say that weaker teams will always start with a deeper defence line as some of the bigger teams like to play counter attacking football too.

Hope that helps a little.

Regards

LAM

[Liverbird93]

With Liverpool I'm playing a 5-4-1 with the 4 in midfield in a narrow diamond. The AMC is an Advanced Playmaker. Is there anything I can do to make sure that the AMC is in space to play the passes to split open the defence?

[KayaZen]

A huge thanks is in order to Cleon and other contributors ITT for reviving my interest in FM. I guess I'm the average FM gamer, if it's too easy I get bored, if it's too difficult I lose interest. I've been searching for inspiration for some time now, and I finally found it. And for the first time in my 8-9 year long interest in FM I really want to learn more.

When I first read the opening posts of this thread I realized that this is the kind of football I want my teams to play. It's logical, it's pretty straight forward and it's entertaining at the same time. Let me explain a little about my Southampton game to date and supplement with questions and feedback at the end of this post. Apologies for TL;DR.

I opted with these two tactics, firstly the one resembling Cleons Spurs tactics:

And then I made a backup, tweaked to a 4-2-3-1:

Using the 4-1-2-2-1 I had some amazing results away from home, while I struggled a bit to kill off games at home and thus drawing a lot. This was down to two things; one is that this tactic is basically created for Gareth Bale, and I have Adam Lallana. Two is that I really didn't understand the shouts. Basically. So I tweaked and ended up using the 4-2-3-1 from about Xmas and out.

Finished the season on 6th place. Knocked out of both cups by City and United, nothing to complain about. We qualified for EL though and I had to expand the squad with better players. With a budget of £25m I was able to buy a few good players, like Garbiel Torje, Tom Ince, Kieran Trippier and Stanciu. From season 1 I already had Lucas Viatri, Nathan Dyer, Karim Guede to name a few. I also bought Yann Sommer in season 1.

Naturally teams in the PL are now more aware of me than before. Players like Viatri, Lallana and Dyer are also really struggling to follow up on a good debut season for instance. I'm really struggling to create chances, despite having possession and moving the ball around very nicely. See a typical game here:

This, I suspect, is down to the opposition figuring out how I play attacking wise. They are obviously able to close me down very well. In other words, I'm pleased with my play except for creating chances.

Here's a look at my team settings (No individual sliders have been touched by the way):

To top it off I was handed a very tough group in the EL: Anji, Shakhtar and Udinese. Needless to say I couldn't qualify for the knock-out stages and losses here also didn't help the moral. I'm currently in mid December and lying 9th in the league, flattering considering I've been really struggling to get results.

How would you guys go on from here? To develop this even further?

the first thing I will recommend you is to get "press more" OFF from your playing style, in FM13 it is NOT working.

having hi defensive line is good, but pressing more against any decent team that pass the ball will lead to easy goals against you.

again hi defensive line yes - pressing more big no.

apart of this just think simple, winger on S on this tactic will also not work good (i will set both wings on attack), i think you should have one DLF and normal CM/AP because now it will be to hard to find gaps passing so close to the box.

i leave my WB auto and let them find the right time to attack hi up, having both on attack will cost you in goals in the end, even barca don't let alves and alba to go up in the same time, one go attacking other one stay defensive.

in auto WBs when one is going attack the other one stay a bit back unless he find it safe to do so, but maybe its just me.