David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,125 posts in this topic

[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']If I may, a quick question for the moderators. Can moderators 'call time' on other moderators?

Cheers
xxx[/QUOTE]

I second this question.

It is one thing for the SI staff (paid or voluntary) to disagree - that's fine.

It is another issue when SI staff (as per above definition) engage in constant sarcasm and belittling of the views of their customers. Even more disturbing when they close a poll i.e. a democratic vote on the issue at hand.

I would expect such moderators to be dealt with. I run my own board. I've been an admin on another board, a mod on another. Such behaviour would not be tolerated on any board I've been involved with. For this to be tolerated on a board such as this, for a large community of a major game, is shocking.

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[quote name='Kriss']If people are just going to go over exactly the same things over and over ad nauseum then this thread might as well be closed.

If you have nothing new to add (I'm struggling to think of anything) then why not all rest on your,laurels for a while.[/QUOTE]

I had a good new question about the demo, a few posts above. :)

[quote name='Snaus']Will there be a demo out through Steam of FM 2012? This will be good for a couple of reasons, mainly:

1. People will get an experience of using Steam for the first time and then be able to delete Steam (and not buy the full game) if they don't like it.

2. To see if your computer can handle FM 2012 at all. Because there will be no way of returning your game once you've activated it and find out your computer's too slow, or give it to someone else. (I have a 2GB Vista PC with 256MB graphic card).[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='Kriss']If people are just going to go over exactly the same things over and over ad nauseum then this thread might as well be closed.

If you have nothing new to add (I'm struggling to think of anything) then why not all rest on your,laurels for a while.[/QUOTE]

Really?

You thinking about closing this thread and shutting off people's voice?

The fact that you even think this as an option is disturbing, in a democracy, and from the point of view of SI as a business who probably want to engage their customers.

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[quote name='leftback in the changing room']Cheers Ackter - that's pretty much exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Thanks to all those who answered, and I appreciate that I can run in offline mode and set my game to not autoupdate, BUT my question refers solely to the first activation. If Brian Poor-Example lives in TinyVillage, Somorset and has no broadband but a low speed dialup connection or pseudo ISDN line setup but works for BigCompany in Bristol with a fast pipe and lax IT regime, he can activate his game online in 5 minutes (allegedly) at home then download patches and updates at work and copy them onto a CD/DVD (or USB stick if the IT system is REALLY lax). However if Steam rolls out the first update when he tries to activate his game, Mr Poor-Example is either leaving his computer on for a couple of days or has a copy of a game he cannot use.[/QUOTE]

Ah I get the point you are making now. I know in my un-installed games, ie games that are still in my library on Steam, but I don't actually have them currently installed, I can still chose if I want to keep the game up-to-date. If you download via Steam then I guess you can chose to disable that option as it downloads.

If you want to buy the game via disc the best bet would to install the steam client a couple of days before and ask on the technical forums on steam if it is possible to turn off updates for all games.

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[quote name='sheeshy']I don't want to use Steam.[/QUOTE]

As far as Football Manager is concerned, this is how I feel.

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[quote name='davehanson']Ah I get the point you are making now. I know in my un-installed games, ie games that are still in my library on Steam, but I don't actually have them currently installed, I can still chose if I want to keep the game up-to-date. If you download via Steam then I guess you can chose to disable that option as it downloads.

If you want to buy the game via disc the best bet would to install the steam client a couple of days before and ask on the technical forums on steam if it is possible to turn off updates for all games.[/QUOTE]

By the looks of it you can set it to not update before it's finished downloading, but have no idea if there's a way when installing from disc.

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[quote name='davehanson']There is a setting that lets you decide if you want to keep the game up-to date or not, ie if you want the latest patch to download automatically or not.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of treading the same ground again (and upsetting the mods, who are currently attempting the equivilant of keeping two snarling dogs apart) there's no assurance that you can elect not to autoupdate before activation - basically, if a patch commences downloads when you activate and there's nothing that can be done to avoid that, people on dial-up or very slow 'broadband' connections will not be able to start the game (see the recent controversy with 1 GB day 1 patches on, IIRC, either the most recent Total Wars or Civ 5 - or possibly both.)

I've not got a huge issue with Steam, and I concede that sooner or later I'll be forced to install it in order to keep gaming on a PC. I just wish that I wasn't forced to do so by FM - and a lot of people will be unable to play FM purely because they are being punished for broadband not being universally available.

(I think 2% of the posts I have ever added to this site are on this topic. That's almost as many as I spent carefully explaining to people set their fullback forward runs setting to 'rarely' to negate the 'unbeatable' 2-3-5 formation in FM07.)

And after all that, davehanson had already replied. Must. Type. Faster.

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[quote name='Snaus']Will there be a demo out through Steam of FM 2012? This will be good for a couple of reasons, mainly:

1. People will get an experience of using Steam for the first time and then be able to delete Steam (and not buy the full game) if they don't like it.

2. To see if your computer can handle FM 2012 at all. Because there will be no way of returning your game once you've activated it and find out your computer's too slow, or give it to someone else. (I have a 2GB Vista PC with 256MB graphic card).[/QUOTE]

If there's a demo available (and there usually is) it'll be available through Steam like it was last year*

*note: not confirmed by Sega or SI. Personal opinion.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']Really?

You thinking about closing this thread and shutting off people's voice?

The fact that you even think this as an option is disturbing, in a democracy, and from the point of view of SI as a business who probably want to engage their customers.[/QUOTE]

No. I'm expressing an opinion, I won't be closing it, nuance doesn't carry well I guess., I'm sure SI want to engage their customers, but not the same half dozen repeating the same thing 50 times:)
I do include both "sides" in that, in fact some of the pro Steam camp are the worse offenders.

It would be nice if either camp could add something new to the debate, atm it's solid repetition.

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OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

2. Where is [b]MIles Jacobsen[/b]? This is such a major decision. Where is he? Why isn't he holding the line on this? Why isn't he accountable to SI's customers?

If there is one person that should be answering questions, it is him. The fact that he isn't (unless there is a personal circumstance), is disturbing.

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[quote name='Ackter']By the looks of it you can set it to not update before it's finished downloading, but have no idea if there's a way when installing from disc.[/QUOTE]

I don't think there is, I doubt Steam have been asked to make auto update absolutely preventable like this before, it's probably something they could do (and should)

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Maybe if they decided to tell us now that they were going to implement it from next years FM that way people would have had to time sort out what is needed to be able to play the game but the way they did it now is like a flash flood. A few days of sunshine (blogs about new feature etc.) then a torential rainfall that floods the neighbourhood (Activation Notice).

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[quote name='Kriss']No. I'm expressing an opinion, I won't be closing it, nuance doesn't carry well I guess., I'm sure SI want to engage their customers, but not the same half dozen repeating the same thing 50 times:)
I do include both "sides" in that, in fact some of the pro Steam camp are the worse offenders.

It would be nice if either camp could add something new to the debate, [b]atm it's solid repetition.[/b][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply.

Re. your point about solid repetition. I know this is one heck of a long thread but I made a point earler that the fact, to some degree, there IS repetition of arguments, may suggest there is a strong consensus.

This might be considered stronger than a wide scattergun range of diverse arguments, IMO.

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I would like to start off that I condemn piracy of any media.

However, I would like to know the details of the research with regards to the post that was made commenting that for every 1 FM game there is 3 'cracked' games being used or something along those lines.

Obviously the term 'cracked' is very wide.

1) Cracked could mean a product downloaded illegally off the internet and used without paying.
2) It could mean a NOCD crack has been used on a legally purchased game. I understand this violate the terms of the EULA, however, this doesn't mean the game is pirated in anyway shape or form.

So I am interested in this. Does the research that has led to the 3-1 ratio conclusion include or exclude people legally purchasing the game, keeping it, but yet using a NOCD crack. I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of that as that argument has been done to death on here and all over the internet. I am just curious to know a bit more about the research involved that led to the 3-1 conclusion.

If you don't want to release the research, may I ask why not?

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One question thougs. Cause i've never used steam before (only for demos) so i'm new with it... Will you be able to install game multiple time? Cause I often format my computer and erase all the hard drives completly would i be able to install game more than one time? or would i have to bought new copy for every time i format my computer (i know it sound ridiculous) ?

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you're people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

2. Where is [b]MIles Jacobsen[/b[? This is such a major decision. Where is he. Why isn't he holding the line on this? Why isn't he accountable to SI's customers?

If there is one person that should be answering questions, it is him. The fact that he isn't (unless there is a personal circumstance), is disturbing.[/QUOTE]

I can only answer 1. and the answer is yes, but my opinion is coloured by the fact I've never had an iota of trouble with Steam, it's irelevant to me personally as to why they've taken this course, because my interest is in being able to play my games trouble free.
I do have huge sympathy for those who have had problems with it and I'll do anything I can to help them get to my position, I think that's something SI/Sega and steam should devote resources to over the coming weeks.
I'm not getting into any arguments about "third party software" I'll only say I was exactly the same as those most vociferous objectors before I actually used it, and I now feel a little foolish about the inhibitions I had.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.
[/QUOTE]

We've never been told what to say, or what line to take - if you look back through this thread you'll see quite a few mods that are disgruntled with this discussion.

Personally I have no problem with using Steam, but I can understand why some don't want to. I'm also disappointed that it's made it difficult for some users to play and enjoy the game. However, if this succeeds in doing what SI and Sega are doing then that's all good.

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The only problem I can think of are licencing issues. Take Germany for example. We aren't allowed to buy this game via Steam. So we need to buy this game via import. For FM11 there have been extra steam keys to buy. Now guess what. Some people here in Germany thought they can make it the easy way, so they just bought a steam key. After entering the key the game was activated. But several days/weeks later the game won't start because it was registered via a German account. Sounds weird and I wonder how that might happen, but these are examples for possible issues with this steam-only approach.

Well. I can only say that I started to use steam several years back then and I had never any problems. Just thinking of other people who might have trouble establishing an internet connection on their gaming pc.

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[quote name='Nani17']One question thougs. Cause i've never used steam before (only for demos) so i'm new with it... Will you be able to install game multiple time? Cause I often format my computer and erase all the hard drives completly would i be able to install game more than one time? or would i have to bought new copy for every time i format my computer (i know it sound ridiculous) ?[/QUOTE]

I would have thought it would be ok becuase you still have a steam account just have to download the application again, but you details will be saved on steam to show that the game is registered

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[quote name='Nani17']One question thougs. Cause i've never used steam before (only for demos) so i'm new with it... Will you be able to install game multiple time? Cause I often format my computer and erase all the hard drives completly would i be able to install game more than one time? or would i have to bought new copy for every time i format my computer (i know it sound ridiculous) ?[/QUOTE]

No you wouldn't have to rebuy the game if you reformat your computer. You just have to redownload.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

[B]2. Where is [b]MIles Jacobsen[/b]? This is such a major decision. Where is he? Why isn't he holding the line on this? Why isn't he accountable to SI's customers?
[/B]
If there is one person that should be answering questions, it is him. The fact that he isn't (unless there is a personal circumstance), is disturbing.[/QUOTE]

Its a saturday night...

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[quote name='Kriss']
It would be nice if either camp could add something new to the debate, atm it's solid repetition.[/QUOTE]

One thing has been troubling me. I work with several staunch FM fans, people who are intelligent and computer literate, only play FM on their PCs... and they won't have the foggiest idea what Steam is.

We know that people that post on a game's forum are a (very, very vocal) minority of users. How certain are SI and SEGA that knowledge of Steam has penetrated that market? Aside from the one-off registration issue in FM09, which at worst required you to log on to the internet once and type in a code, all FM and CM games have required is that you put the disk into the machine and install it*.

*for the purposes of this post, I will disregards my personal travails with having to install DirectX SDKs or .Net Framework versions to get previous FMs running.

None of them have required you to install a different piece of software, or have had "Internet access and Steam Client required to activate this game" stamped on the box.

Will that not intimidate even regular purchasers of the game? And that's nothing compared to the loss of goodwill if the inexperienced do have issues with Steam.

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A bit of advise I'd like to give:

1. Do not (ever) use your workplace to install Steam and/or download updates. This will be cause for immediate discharge. Also don't do it if you're selfimployed or it's your company, because it could be harmfull to your ICT security.

2. If you're using public open wifi connections, like at McDonalds (other fastfood restaurants are available), be sure that it's allowed to download large amounts of data.

3. When registrating for Steam (or any suchlike services), be sure not to use your main email account, but rather an extra specialy created one. This will help preventing the hacking and lose of your main email when Steam itself gets hacked (like Sony's recently). And be sure to have a safety referral email account set up for your extra account in case you do lose access to it.

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[quote name='jpwild']I would like to start off that I condemn piracy of any media.

However, I would like to know the details of the research with regards to the post that was made commenting that for every 1 FM game there is 3 'cracked' games being used or something along those lines.

Obviously the term 'cracked' is very wide.

1) Cracked could mean a product downloaded illegally off the internet and used without paying.
2) It could mean a NOCD crack has been used on a legally purchased game. I understand this violate the terms of the EULA, however, this doesn't mean the game is pirated in anyway shape or form.

So I am interested in this. Does the research that has led to the 3-1 ratio conclusion include or exclude people legally purchasing the game, keeping it, but yet using a NOCD crack. I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of that as that argument has been done to death on here and all over the internet. I am just curious to know a bit more about the research involved that led to the 3-1 conclusion.

If you don't want to release the research, may I ask why not?[/QUOTE]

JPWild, This is now at least the third time you have posted this question. Please don't post it again. Remember today is SATURDAY... its the weekend. The people that could answer your question may not be working today. Therefore, it may take time for them to answer the questions you have asked. They may be unable to answer them, due to the corporate situation.

Either way, repeating your question until you get an answer on a Saturday when it is likely that there is no-one able to answer it today is getting beyond a joke.

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[quote name='Ackter']We've never been told what to say, or what line to take - [b]if you look back through this thread you'll see quite a few mods that are disgruntled with this discussion.[/b]

Personally I have no problem with using Steam, but I can understand why some don't want to. I'm also disappointed that it's made it difficult for some users to play and enjoy the game. However, if this succeeds in doing what SI and Sega are doing then that's all good.[/QUOTE]

Re. emboldened section of reply. I recognise this - which is in part what prompted me to ask Q1 in my post (post 1558). Thanks for the reply.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Its a saturday night...[/QUOTE]

Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.

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[quote name='cynet']Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.[/QUOTE]

he was on here all yesterday and today untill 2ish

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[quote name='leftback in the changing room']One thing has been troubling me. I work with several staunch FM fans, people who are intelligent and computer literate, only play FM on their PCs... and they won't have the foggiest idea what Steam is.

We know that people that post on a game's forum are a (very, very vocal) minority of users. How certain are SI and SEGA that knowledge of Steam has penetrated that market? Aside from the one-off registration issue in FM09, which at worst required you to log on to the internet once and type in a code, all FM and CM games have required is that you put the disk into the machine and install it*.
[/QUOTE]

its very possible like most games that require steam, that steam will be on the cd, so when you install FM you also install Steam, you wont need to have heard of it, and i would imagine there will be instructions for first time users. It wont be a case of installing the game without having a clue how to get it to work. After its installed you can start the game from the FM icon, again you wont need to know how to use steam at all.

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Just posting to add to those saying that this decision by FM will mean I will NOT be buying FM2012, and not because I don't want to use Steam (I already do for FM09, FM10, and FM11), but because I dislike ANY attempt at copy-protection that isn't self-contained in the box. It's one reason I stopped purchasing Paradox Interactive games; they used to have no copy protection, and I bought almost everything they sold, but now they use Steam to activate and I stopped purchasing.

In my opinion the effort to stop piracy is almost always doomed to failure. This is true for two main reasons: first, those that pirate a game are not interested in paying for it, so effective anti-piracy measures don't increase sales significantly, and second, all anti-piracy measures are doomed to failure, since all such efforts can be cracked. At best, anti-piracy measures simply prevent those unwilling to purchase a legal copy of a game the delight of playing it on the release date, hardly worth the gumming up of the works that the measures create.

I would recommend that the hierarchy at SI take a page from prolific and wealthy author David Weber, who writes the very successful Honor Harrington books. He has digital copies of EVERY one of his books available to read free on line. Hasn't had any significant impact on sales of his books so far as I'm aware; each of his new novels routinely makes it to the top of the New York Times bestseller list. In the end run, the best business practice is not to focus on the ones who steal, but focus on the ones who are your good customers, for it's the return of their business you are really trying to promote.

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[quote name='cynet']Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.[/QUOTE]

What would he add that the guys from both SI and SEGA have said? He will have the stance that this is the way forward for FM12, give it a shot and if it doesnt work out it will be looked at, exactly what has been said by employes and devs already.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']
1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.[/QUOTE]
The paid SI employees seem to generally have faith in SEGA.

The closest thing to an analogy I can think of is staff in a ticket office. If prices go up in order to increase their wages, they can object because the poorest will be frozen out, leading to them losing their jobs, or they can back the policy because it benefits them. Frankly, I can't blame any of them (SI or SEGA) for doing this, and I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority believe what they are doing is right for their company and customers. They're a good bunch.

We moderators found out about this in the same way you did. We have subsequently discussed the matter, and at no point have we been told what line to take (well, we might have implicitly, but not explicitly, I'm no good at reading into what people say). Nobody has expressed an opinion in public that is different to what they are expressing in private. I genuinely don't like Steam, Kriss genuinely doesn't understand why people don't like Steam, Ackter genuinely wants everyone to shut up :D

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[quote name='milnerpoint']What would he add that the guys from both SI and SEGA have said? He will have the stance that this is the way forward for FM12, give it a shot and if it doesnt work out it will be looked at, exactly what has been said by employes and devs already.[/QUOTE]

He's the figurehead of SI and Football Manager. His not being here in the light of this decision is poor form IMO. He should be accountable to the customers, not stepping back to let others take the flak (unless, as per my original post on this issue, personal circumstances take priority in which case, fair enough).

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[quote name='cynet']Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure Miles has read the thread at some point but what do you want him to say?

He'll just regurgitate everything he said earlier. He has his stance and he will stick to it. And then some will probably disagree with his stance and then it'll just go downhill from there...

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[quote name='SCIAG'] Ackter genuinely wants everyone to shut up :D[/QUOTE]

I also want to make Kriss jokes.

Something to clarify from that post - the moderators are not paid, we're all volunteers*

[SIZE=1]*while heathxxx isn't paid, I can't guarantee he isn't kept in a basement somewhere, he's very weird.[/SIZE]

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']he was on here all yesterday and today untill 2ish[/QUOTE]

Really well he never posted on this thread, the one what matters the most right now, strange really, expect the top person in SI to come and answer or defend this decision, they say silence is golden.

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[quote name='cynet']Really well he never posted on this thread, the one what matters the most right now, strange really, expect the top person in SI to come and answer or defend this decision, they say silence is golden.[/QUOTE]

he did post, more than once...

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[quote name='rancer890']I'm sure Miles has read the thread at some point but what do you want him to say?

He'll just regurgitate everything he said earlier. He has his stance and he will stick to it. And then some will probably disagree with his stance and then it'll just go downhill from there...[/QUOTE]

Well as your his PR spokesman it clarifies everything doesn't it?

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']he did post, more than once...[/QUOTE]

Not in this thread, look and you will see :)

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Must say it isn't my preferred solution but meh, doesn't really make no difference.

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[quote name='SCIAG'] Ackter genuinely wants everyone to shut up :D[/QUOTE]

Especially me:D

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']He's the figurehead of SI and Football Manager. His not being here in the light of this decision is poor form IMO. He should be accountable to the customers, not stepping back to let others take the flak (unless, as per my original post on this issue, personal circumstances take priority in which case, fair enough).[/QUOTE]

What good would come, he would post something along the lines of "We know some of you are not happy, but we feel this is the best course of action this time around" and then we will have another 16 pages of people quoting him, demanding he does something about it, so pretty much everything that is in this thread already.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']he did, and you can see...[/QUOTE]

Have and I cant because he hasn't :p

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[quote name='rancer890']I'm sure Miles has read the thread at some point but what do you want him to say?

He'll just regurgitate everything he said earlier. He has his stance and he will stick to it. And then some will probably disagree with his stance and then it'll just go downhill from there...[/QUOTE]

Miles is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't on this one. All that would happen is more infractions flying around when people get animated because there's a figure of authority to shout at.

It's too late for FM12; the best we can do is argue for a change of direction for FM13.

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The SI and SEGA team are not going stop everything to talk to use on here, they will try and get representivites when they can like after the announcment and most prob monday. They still have to work on the up-and-coming blogs and the keep the FM Handheld people up-to-date with their game aswell.

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[quote name='cynet']Well as your his PR spokesman it clarifies everything doesn't it?[/QUOTE]

Maybe he will post something about it. Maybe he won't. I don't know. He's in a lose-lose situation.

[quote name='cynet']Really well he never posted on this thread, the one what matters the most right now, strange really, expect the top person in SI to come and answer or defend this decision, they say silence is golden.[/QUOTE]

Maybe that's how he handles the ref's decisions in FM. ;)

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[quote name='milnerpoint']What good would come, he would post something along the lines of "We know some of you are not happy, but we feel this is the best course of action this time around" and then we will have another 16 pages of people quoting him, demanding he does something about it, so pretty much everything that is in this thread already.[/QUOTE]

This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.

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[quote name='cynet']This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.[/QUOTE]

Don't lose sight of the fact that a lot of people are actually happy with this decision.

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[quote name='cynet']This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.[/QUOTE]Which country do you think would force Miles to give an answer?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']What good would come, he would post something along the lines of "We know some of you are not happy, but we feel this is the best course of action this time around" and then we will have another 16 pages of people quoting him, demanding he does something about it, so pretty much everything that is in this thread already.[/QUOTE]

Well if he is reading this being a customer since 1992 and all the way until 2011 I wont be buying FM12, so you have lost a valid customer, if anyone else feels the same instead of moaning do something about it and don't purchase, without our cash they wont go far, trust me.

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