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sperlz

A big issue which has been ignored before and is still in 11.3

47 posts in this topic

Red cards are giving the team with the player sent off too much of an advantage. I have brought this up before but it is still very much happening.

I have just been through 20 random matches in the english football league. I have a percentage of 85% of the time, the team who has just got a player sent off, goes on to score more than the other team for the rest of the match. So for example Leeds v Ipswich is 0-0. Ipswich get a player sent off, Ipswich then go on to win the game. This is happening at a ratio of 85% This is hugely unrealistic.

Now it is common football knowledge that it has happened many times that a team with 10 men have pulled off a great result by winning, however this is more of a rarity than common. It should be that the team with more players go on to win the game 85% of the time rather than the team with less players. SI have obviously implemented something into the game which boosts the performance of a team who have less players, but its been taken way out of proportion... to an extent of unrealism.

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Was this issue raised before 11.3? You really need a much larger scope than just 20 matches - plus you need to bear in mind when a player is sent off and the score when it happens. A team who are winning 1-0 with ten men could quite easily score a second on the break if the 11 men push on too much.

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Neil... I have just looked through over 100 matches in every league. I am using an example of teams from a level position or starting in a losing position. I just looked randomly at the german league at Hannover. They have had 2 games where they received red cards. So I looked at their two results. First one, they were drawing 0-0 away to St Pauli, They then got a player sent off and 'after' the red card scored twice and won 2-0. The second game they were losing 1-0, had a player sent off, then drew 1-1. It is a huge rarity to find a game where a team who has 11 against 10 has scored more goals than the 10 after the sending off. As rare as 2 times out of 20, compared with 15 times for the team with 10. Here is a link to the thread with screenshots I posted near Christmas time. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/245407-Teams-with-sent-off-players-winning-too-much?p=6276441

Please understand this is a massive issue and that playing against 10 men is like playing against 12 as its almost as though their morale goes to superb and my players go to very low.

I would'nt bring it up if it was just slight but its a pretty huge bug

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if someone else could just look through 10-20 games in the league that they are running for matches with red cards and let me know how the team with 10 men got on compared to the teams with 11. Then it could prove that there is an issue here

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dont want to open new topic and on general 11.3 topic there are to many posts.

just if someone can briefly say to me if the realisation problem is sort out?

tnx.

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I've just looked through 30 matches in which a player was sent off.

Team with 10 men winning: 6 matches

Team with 10 men winning when scores were level before the sending off: 2 matches

Draw: 7 matches

Team with 11 men winning: 17 matches

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We can only go with the examples we get - by and large the statistics show this is not an issue in-game, much like wwfan's analysis. If you have strong evidence to prove otherwise we can act upon it. I'll set off some holiday games tomorrow and analyse it for you. Cheers.

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I've just looked through 30 matches in which a player was sent off.

Team with 10 men winning: 6 matches

Team with 10 men winning when scores were level before the sending off: 2 matches

Draw: 7 matches

Team with 11 men winning: 17 matches

The issue seems to be after the red card that the team with less men is scoring more, did you take this into account? I cant imagine that my game would be different to yours as I have only just downloaded the patch and made no changes. But thanks for looking into it, i obviously hope it is'nt a bug as I want to start a new game but just dont want this to be an issue

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That was something always talked about in FML, but was never proven/unproven i think.

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If it is such a big issue then how come this is the first I have heard of it?

Although in saying that, my last game I had my striker sent off in the first half, I changed to a much more defensive outlook with a counter attack option and we nicked the winning goal at the end for a 1-0 victory. The AI makes changes to a man going down too and this can lead them to getting it right and nicking a goal. But I don't see this as a major issue

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Looks like i'll be changing my tactics to hard tackling...

Doubt it'll work.

I've been on hard tackling since day one, played endless seasons prior to christmas and had no more than 2 sendings off per season.

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I have won quite a few games with 10 Men, Just get your formations right, Also i have match prep on a formation i can afford to lose a player.

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I tend to like playing with ten too, fortunate of late it happens as two of my regens seem to like collecting shiny red cards. I just find the AI tends to attack a bit more and can sometimes be of help. Maybe memory clouding the judgment though as there have definitely be some stuffings for me courtesy of 'bad refereeing decisions'!

Slightly off topic, remember Red cards aren't solely based on tackling strength, professionalism, temperament, sportsmanship plus maybe a few other things (such as the players actual ability to tackle) all play a part!

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Never really found an issue with this to be honest. I have had players of the opposing teams sent off and I have won convincingly 3-1 or 4-0 before and I've also had times when I've maybe still only won 1-0. As in real life, it can be trickier to beat a tean with only 10 men instead of 11 because they tend to fight more to try not to let it go to a cricket score. Celtic v Rangers match last Wednesday had a Rangers player sent off after 30 mins and Celtic still won by only 1-0. They completely dominated the possesion and play but just couldn't get that second goal.

Sometimes it can be a lot harder against 10 men than with 11 like I say though.

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Though I never go as far as sperlz to check other games, I too find the opposition suddenly becomes way stronger after their player is sent off. I think almost every game that opposition got set off they will score soon enough. It comes to the point that I feel "Oh crap they got a player sent off. They r going to score soon" kinda feeling.

To add to sperlz, they score soon after the sending off. Sometimes I cant score back but usually I still end up winning.

Still on 11.2 but I notice the problem since FM09. But most obvious in FM11.2.

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I don't have any specific statistics to quote but in general after playing the game for a few months I find that going down to 10 men either for myself or the opposition is no huge impediment as the performances with 10 men are normally much better than with 11.

I personally think that the balance in the ME is wrong and needs tweaking slightly.

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No issues from here - played 27 games so far and i have had 4 red cards. Total of 21 in the PL. Not an issues for me.

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dsouthy: I think the issue the poster is stating is how well teams do when down to 10 men, not neccessarily how many red cards the game is giving.

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Looks like i'll be changing my tactics to hard tackling...

Or you could shoot on goal after the whistle had already been blown :rolleyes:

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There is definitely a problem as I've just holidayed another game and teams with 10 men have still got an advantage of scoring more with 10 than the team with 11

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There is definitely a problem as I've just holidayed another game and teams with 10 men have still got an advantage of scoring more with 10 than the team with 11

Okay, create a thread in the 'Match Engine' sub-forum within the Bugs Forum, provide your data and findings and upload your save game to the FTP, then we can take a look. Thanks.

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What's the point? It seems as though this is the last patch so I will have to wait for fm 2012 to play a realistic game. Really annoying that no tester noticed this, its their job and I have now advised of 4+ bugs in this game that havnt been noticed. it's a big bug and a game spoiler as well.

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I also noticed that it's pretty difficult to get advantage while playing against 10 man. But what seems to work for me is for example if I play attacking mentality and AI gets player sent off I just put my mentallity to control. Just tune it one step down and not up and it seems to work. Although I found myself more then once not beeing to happy to see AI get a red because I knew it will be harder to break them. It is slightly unrealistic but not a gamebreaker

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What's the point? It seems as though this is the last patch so I will have to wait for fm 2012 to play a realistic game. Really annoying that no tester noticed this, its their job and I have now advised of 4+ bugs in this game that havnt been noticed. it's a big bug and a game spoiler as well.

to be honest you've not really demonstrated there is an issue, you haven't shown any strong statistical evidence for this.

from a personal experience ive smashed teams with them down to 10 men, beaten teams when im down to 10 men, and been taken apart when down to 10 men. But will collect a proper analysis from my game over the coming week to see if there is really an issue either way

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i can remember vividly answer questions based on the fact i have lost a game after getting players sent off, cant really say i have noticed this at all but like others ill have a look at the stats later on.

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to be honest you've not really demonstrated there is an issue, you haven't shown any strong statistical evidence for this.

from a personal experience ive smashed teams with them down to 10 men, beaten teams when im down to 10 men, and been taken apart when down to 10 men. But will collect a proper analysis from my game over the coming week to see if there is really an issue either way

the problem stems not just from yourself having a problem breaking down the 10 men, but more so from a game simulated. Computer team A v Computer team B... B gets a player sent off at 0-0 after 10 mins... B seems to gain an advantage in score. This is something i've looked at intensively since December. I should not have to post on different threads to display this. I am a paying customer identifying a definate issue. It is then the job of the developers to deal with it, not me. If they want statistical evidence then they should run a holiday game. Then look at 100 different matches where there have been red cards. They should then look at what team is gaining an advantage after the red card and compare this to real life.

I'm actually really annoyed about this as I was waiting for this patch for ages and now because of this bug I just dont want to start a game, because there is no way that receiving a red card should put your team at an advantage.

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Again we need evidence which proves this to be able to 'fix' this, we have absolutely no evidence to suggest this is the case in game other than your word. With all issues like this we absolutely 100% need hard evidence. Cheers.

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the problem stems not just from yourself having a problem breaking down the 10 men, but more so from a game simulated. Computer team A v Computer team B... B gets a player sent off at 0-0 after 10 mins... B seems to gain an advantage in score. This is something i've looked at intensively since December. I should not have to post on different threads to display this. I am a paying customer identifying a definate issue. It is then the job of the developers to deal with it, not me. If they want statistical evidence then they should run a holiday game. Then look at 100 different matches where there have been red cards. They should then look at what team is gaining an advantage after the red card and compare this to real life.

I'm actually really annoyed about this as I was waiting for this patch for ages and now because of this bug I just dont want to start a game, because there is no way that receiving a red card should put your team at an advantage.

but you haven't identified anything definite really have you? im not saying there isn't a problem, there could well be, but you haven't definitely identified anything, in fact the only person to show stats so far, shows there isn't really a particular issue. Not having a go, but if this was such a big issue to you why didn't you back it up with findings, like most people do on the bugs section. We are all paying customers, but for what its worth, most people haven't seen any issue, but like i said, am more than willing to take the time to collect some stats from my game save

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the problem stems not just from yourself having a problem breaking down the 10 men, but more so from a game simulated. Computer team A v Computer team B... B gets a player sent off at 0-0 after 10 mins... B seems to gain an advantage in score. This is something i've looked at intensively since December. I should not have to post on different threads to display this. I am a paying customer identifying a definate issue. It is then the job of the developers to deal with it, not me. If they want statistical evidence then they should run a holiday game. Then look at 100 different matches where there have been red cards. They should then look at what team is gaining an advantage after the red card and compare this to real life.

I'm actually really annoyed about this as I was waiting for this patch for ages and now because of this bug I just dont want to start a game, because there is no way that receiving a red card should put your team at an advantage.

the point is tho and you seem to be missing it, your the ONLY one bringing this up, which means it really cannot be as big an issue as you make out, these forums are full of people desperate to find faults and no one else has posted about this mate.

If you think you have a real point here, then you must back it up with real evidence because the guys at SI dont see it, if they dont see it then nothing will ever change if it even has too. Dont get angry about it, just work with them, that is the only choice you have.

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I've noticed this too (up to 11.21). I haven't started with 11.3 yet.

Perhaps it's to do with the 11 men pushing on too much and getting caught on the break ? Lord knows, but it is definitely something I have noticed throught FM11 thus far.

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I was just winning 1-0. bolton vs fulham. I was Bolton.

Had Kevin Davies sent off in the 50th minute. Kept my formation as 4-4-1 and although they had a few close chances, the game finished 1-0 to me. practically half the game with 10 men. Didn't change much tactically, just subbed a winger off when tired and took the lone striker off for a similar striker when he was tired also.

85th minute onwards I set to defensive but that doesn't really do much since most of my players have individual instructions that that overwrite the default team ones.

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He did bring that up already when the 11.2 patch was released. He was and is still the only one with that issue and he did never provide real evidence. I suggested already in December to upload save games and stats but he never did.

I checked dozens of matches in my save and there was absolutly no evidence that there is something wrong with a wrong sending off advantage. In the overall. It can always happen in some matches, but to look into the coders need stats from more than just a few games.

This is the old thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/245407-Teams-with-sent-off-players-winning-too-much

2 months time to up-load real evidence, but nothing happend.

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Thanks for all your posts guys.

We have tested this in depth now over a long period of time and there is still no sign that an opposition gains an advantage

Often when teams go down to 10 men it becomes even more of a tactical battle to work out how to exploit the spaces left by the 10 men, as teams become more rigid and defensive minded

If anybody has any PKMs that show that a team with 10 men is outplaying them in possession and most other areas of the game then please upload them as it will only help us to make the game better

I myself am guilty of not taking enough time to make tactical changes when an opposition goes down to 10 men as its always a relief to see an opposition lose a player

Many people talk about teams being stronger when going down to 10 men, however when viewing a match there is never a clear enough visual sign of this

Thanks for all your feedback :)

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The problem isn't so much human related but computer generated scores.

The way I found out about this was because I was unbeaten at the start of the season, but the two games I struggled most in were against teams with 10 men, who both beat me and drew with me. I thought, wow thats strange. Then I looked at some games and saw that Wolves beat Man Utd after Wolves going down to 10 men after 3 minutes. Blackburn were at Stamford Bridge and were drawing 2-2, then Blackburn got a red card and went on to win 3-2. Then I could'nt find a single game where a computer team had easily beat a team with 10 men. I think the problem is the computer AI's inability to find a successful tactic to compete against 10 men and this leads to some freak results and unrealistic ones.

For one final test I will do a full holidayed season of the top 2 English divisions. I will check to see how many goals are scored after a sending off both for team with 11 men and 10 men through the whole season and report back. If the teams with 10 men are scoring more or equal 'after the sending off' then this proves that it is a bug and I will be happy to upload a PKM. If not I will eat humble pie. (even though of course I dont want it to be a bug)

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You did still not provide any useful stats. If there is an advantage it should be a pattern in say 100 matches with red card incidents. I did not see such a pattern in my save and also not the FM Testing team.

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i was really trying to forget about this and get on with the game until...

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the team with a player sent off just get too much of an advantage. I remember the greatest FA cup comeback ever where man city were down to spurs at half time losing 3-0 with 10 men. but this just takes the pi**

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I don't know if 11.3 makes any difference or not.. but I do know I've won more then one match with just 10 men on the pitch, also had some close losses or ties, in previous versions.

So I don't get the OP saying it's too big of an advantage... I mean that's the whole concept to begin with, but it's certainly not an impossible situation.

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I completelly agree with the OP, but it works both ways. If I have a player sent off it's like my team all get a rocket up them and I've had some ridiculous wins like 5-2 and 4-1 while the opposition seem to get the same 'rocket' when going down to 10 men.

I believe it's a problem. Not game breaking or anything, but a problem that needs to be looked at.

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i was really trying to forget about this and get on with the game until...

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the team with a player sent off just get too much of an advantage. I remember the greatest FA cup comeback ever where man city were down to spurs at half time losing 3-0 with 10 men. but this just takes the pi**

That's one example. It happens in real football too. You did not find any evidence that it happens to often in the game. Therefore it's not a bug.

When I search google for German phrase "Mannschaft dreht spielt in Unterzahl" - turnover with one man left, it gives me pages of examples that it happens in real football.

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That's one example. It happens in real football too. You did not find any evidence that it happens to often in the game. Therefore it's not a bug.

When I search google for German phrase "Mannschaft dreht spielt in Unterzahl" - turnover with one man left, it gives me pages of examples that it happens in real football.

I dont know how you can possibly not see that there is an issue. I am only 2 months into my savegame and already there is a game with a result that has'nt and will never happen in football hisory. It is a regular thing on the game so it makes it a bug.

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By the way, how am I meant to find evidence in the game apart from the screenshots I have posted, do you have an idea of how I could prove it? Its easy enough to see, if you look in your own game you will see many freak results i'm sure, probably wont admit it though . The odd results seem to come on 'full detail' matches so maybe that is why you could'nt find a problem.

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I dont know how you can possibly not see that there is an issue. I am only 2 months into my savegame and already there is a game with a result that has'nt and will never happen in football hisory. It is a regular thing on the game so it makes it a bug.

No it does not. You don't have the stats of all games played in real football. Next to everything did happen in real football. You are completely focussed on your theory like people who are obsessed with a conspiracy theory.

You had more than two months time to proof that there is a problem you mentioned, but you failed to gather any kind of real evidence.

Your example is just one of the freak matches and results that happens in real football and makes football that fascinating.

If you find 100 such matches in your save, gather it, upload it. But not just one example. That's like all the people posting "I had 4 injured players in one match, there must be a injury bug in the game".

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By the way, how am I meant to find evidence in the game apart from the screenshots I have posted, do you have an idea of how I could prove it? Its easy enough to see, if you look in your own game you will see many freak results i'm sure, probably wont admit it though . The odd results seem to come on 'full detail' matches so maybe that is why you could'nt find a problem.

I have all my active leagues in full detail and I browse through hundreds of matches and yes there are freak results. Because it's football. But there is no evidence that there is a bug that would cause REGULAR freak results.

If you have such evidence, gather it, upload it. But do not post screenshots of one match and talk about a general bug.

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Every game I went down to 10 men with Newcastle (which was around 5 games) I got beat or dropped points from a winning position. It definately got improved IMO the other team are less sloppy in possession and tend to dominate in my experience

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I have also encountered this bug, if you can call it that. It's not that the team with 10 players get an advantage it's the lack of disavantage. They are still going to try and beat your side as much as they would try with 11 people.

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I have also encountered this bug, if you can call it that. It's not that the team with 10 players get an advantage it's the lack of disavantage. They are still going to try and beat your side as much as they would try with 11 people.

Did you made any tactical changes after the red card? When a team is one goal behind it will try to score, even with 10 or 9 players, they have nothing to lose. That could be an advantage, if your players and your tactics are not aware of it.

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