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Nobby_McDonald

2009 idea - Promotion/relegation in unplayable leagues

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This idea is one I feel needs implementing. No matter what country you are playing in, the only teams that can be promoted into playable leagues are the ones who play in the unplayable leagues that immediately feed into it, or those teams that have been relegated out of a playable league while playing the game. This then gives the same pool of teams (66 in England's case) that can be promoted, and no others.

Why shouldn't the likes of FC United, Sheffield, Kidsgrove Athletic to name just three be able to be promoted to a playable league further down the line?

It's not down to research. As soon as you press continue for the first time, the game world deviates from the real world. And as it would be at least two years since the start of the game before any of these teams can appear in a playable league, having a 'good number' of players at the start isn't a factor, as the AI manager will have been signing and selling in this time.

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This idea is one I feel needs implementing. No matter what country you are playing in, the only teams that can be promoted into playable leagues are the ones who play in the unplayable leagues that immediately feed into it, or those teams that have been relegated out of a playable league while playing the game. This then gives the same pool of teams (66 in England's case) that can be promoted, and no others.

Why shouldn't the likes of FC United, Sheffield, Kidsgrove Athletic to name just three be able to be promoted to a playable league further down the line?

It's not down to research. As soon as you press continue for the first time, the game world deviates from the real world. And as it would be at least two years since the start of the game before any of these teams can appear in a playable league, having a 'good number' of players at the start isn't a factor, as the AI manager will have been signing and selling in this time.

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But where does it stop?

I think 66 teams is plenty enough.

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Agreed with Nobby.

I'd add to what he said but he phrased it better than I ever could. icon14.gif

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Hmmmm. An interesting idea. I think it would probably take a great deal of programming to achieve, so not sure it's worth it. But if the game could keep track (in the background of course) of promotions and relegations in the support leagues, it could be interesting. For example, if I edited the database to give AFC Wimbledon a lot of money and a reasonable reputation, it'd be nice to see them promoted in a few years. That said, it's not the most pressing concerns, and 66 teams is probably more than enough.

If it's doable, then go for it. Otherwise, I'm not too bothered. Interesting idea though. icon14.gif

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66 teams really isn't enough when you consider that a total of six teams will be promoted every year (three to the bsn, three to the bss). plus there's a vast database of sides who currently serve little purpose in the game other than to lose in the fa cup qualifying rounds, so making use of them by ensuring that there's a chance of them making it into the playable leagues would be nice

i doubt it would take a great deal of programming to achieve - all it would take is expanding the system that currently governs who's promoted from non-playable to playable leagues to include promotion/relegation between non-playable leagues, as well as maybe adding and subtracting reputation at random from unplayable clubs to simulate the ebb and flow of the lower leagues

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It should really be doable, seeing the fact that the game does simulate (bits) of unplayable leagues. I don't know how it's done exactly, but as an international manager I can see the number of matches a player played, a player who is from my international team and a club outside the playable leagues.

Next to that, it's just a great idea icon14.gif

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Is there anyway at all, using the editor perhaps, to put one of the ridiculously small English non-league teams into that pool of 66 teams to give them a chance of getting promoted into the football league? Southend Manor for example.....

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It doens't seem right when you consider that the Northern Irish teams a majority are on it.

My local team Chimney Corner are on there and they seriously have a corrugated iron hut to save the fans from the rain and when I say fans I mean a couple of old fellas. It even has teams that play on the local park across from me (without a ref) and are well known booze hounds icon_biggrin.gif

Love the chance to manage FC United though.

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I feel that any team that is in the game and is lower than the current playable leagues in any particular country should at least have the chance to be promoted. This game is about realism, I don't see why this shouldn't be an option, and I don't foresee it to be hard to implement in the game.

Fair enough that in leagues like Scotland where there is no promotion/relegation from the 3rd division as that is the same as in real life so that's fine. (Although I believe that there is a rule where if you finish bottom of the 3rd division 3 times in a row then you would be replaced by a highland league team; but I'm not aware if this is in the game or if it is actually a rule in real life, it's just what I've heard.)

Feel free to comment.

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I think if a team were to be promoted to a league just below a playable one, it wouldn't be very likely that it would get promoted (although TBH AFC Hornchurch are doing rather well). I just have to agree with SWaRFeGa; where does it stop?

If you want to manage a never-manageable team, you can swap teams around using the editor.

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I dont think the OP was asking for a simulation of the Northern League Division 3 in game- i think what he means is that all clubs in the game (say for England for example) be given a chance to promoted into a playable league, rather than simply those in the division directly underneath the lowest playable division.

This would be especially useful if u were only running the EPL-50 years of game time for example would only see teams in the Championship ever making it to the top flight.

In the case of teams below Conf Nth/Sth, this might be accounted for by introducing a "minimum seasons before promotion to lowest playable division" value, which as the name suggests is the number a seasons a side would take, if it were promoted every season, to reach the lowest playable division (ie for 'Southend Manor' it might be seven, if its seven divisions below the lowest playable division). This value, coupled with the clubs reputation, could give every team the opportunity to appear in a playable league, however remote that may be.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:

But where does it stop?

I think 66 teams is plenty enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So in 2050 it's going to be the exact same 226 teams playing in the top eight tiers of English football.

Possible, but very unlikely.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:

For example, if I edited the database to give AFC Wimbledon a lot of money and a reasonable reputation, it'd be nice to see them promoted in a few years. That said, it's not the most pressing concerns, and 66 teams is probably more than enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bad example, AFC Wimbledon are one of those 66.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kill Rock Stars:

plus there's a vast database of sides who currently serve little purpose in the game other than to lose in the fa cup qualifying rounds </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a whole different issue, search for my 'Greys Athletic' thread in LLM.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jsufc88:

Is there anyway at all, using the editor perhaps, to put one of the ridiculously small English non-league teams into that pool of 66 teams to give them a chance of getting promoted into the football league? Southend Manor for example..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe for you, but not for me. It goes completely against my way of playing.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aaberdeenn:

Fair enough that in leagues like Scotland where there is no promotion/relegation from the 3rd division as that is the same as in real life so that's fine. (Although I believe that there is a rule where if you finish bottom of the 3rd division 3 times in a row then you would be replaced by a highland league team; but I'm not aware if this is in the game or if it is actually a rule in real life, it's just what I've heard.)

Feel free to comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.

Who votes I have no idea.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sthptngomad76:

I dont think the OP was asking for a simulation of the Northern League Division 3 in game- i think what he means is that all clubs in the game (say for England for example) be given a chance to promoted into a playable league... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what I meant.

I'm not asking for the leagues to exist in the game per se, but for teams to be promoted and relegated between them. A hidden league for want of a better term, with teams promoted and relegated based on factors - such as reputation and quality of their squad - rather than playing fixtures as that would use too many resources.

The leagues even exist in the database... how else in a news item would I have been told I would be playing Kidsgrove Athletic of the Northern League First Division South in an F.A. Cup Qualifying Round?

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Perhaps the solution for each edition of FM is for the researchers to quickly check which teams outside the 66 are "likely" to make the playable leagues and thus code accoringly for these teams.

For example, there are clubs at non-league level who would drop a division or two for a couple of seasons, such as Fisher Athletic in real life. They have since "risen" to a level that's playable in the game.

Obviously teams such as FC United, considering the following, reputation and finances, are potentially "likely" to get to at least the BSN.

As the game is released yearly, there really would'nt need to be many teams coded "additionally". This could then be reviewer prior to each release.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:

Perhaps the solution for each edition of FM is for the researchers to quickly check which teams outside the 66 are "likely" to make the playable leagues and thus code accoringly for these teams.

For example, there are clubs at non-league level who would drop a division or two for a couple of seasons, such as Fisher Athletic in real life. They have since "risen" to a level that's playable in the game.

Obviously teams such as FC United, considering the following, reputation and finances, are potentially "likely" to get to at least the BSN.

As the game is released yearly, there really would'nt need to be many teams coded "additionally". This could then be reviewer prior to each release. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I came in to make a point, but heathxxx has made it and in a very concise manner.

WHS, then icon14.gif

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I think this is a must.

The problem would probably be how this is worked out.

At the moment it is worked out by reputation. The reputation of the clubs directly below Conference South is as follows.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Isthmian Premier

AFC Hornchurch 900

AFC Wimbledon 1350

Ashford Town (Middx) 650

Billericay Town 1100

Boreham Wood 950

Carshalton Athletic 900

Chelmsford City 1250

East Thurrock United 600

Folkestone Invicta 700

Harlow Town 600

Harrow Borough 750

Hastings United 600

Hendon 900

Heybridge Swifts 850

Horsham 800

Leyton 700

Maidstone United 800

Margate 1100

Ramsgate 850

Staines Town 800

Tonbridge Angels 850

Wealdstone 700

Northern Premier

Ashton United 750

Buxton 850

Eastwood Town 850

Fleetwood Town 1000

Frickley Athletic 850

Gateshead 1200

Guiseley 1200

Hednesford Town 1300

Ilkeston Town 1050

Kendal Town 900

Leek Town 900

Lincoln United 850

Marine 1250

Matlock Town 1150

North Ferriby United 950

Ossett Town 900

Prescot Cables 1000

Stamford 1000

Whitby Town 1100

Witton Albion 1250

Worksop Town 1200

Southern Premier

Banbury United 800

Bashley 600

Bedford Town 1000

Brackley Town 400

Bromsgrove Rovers 700

Cheshunt 600

Chippenham Town 900

Cirencester Town 750

Clevedon Town 750

Corby Town 650

Gloucester City 800

Halesowen Town 900

Hemel Hempstead Town 800

Hitchin Town 1000

King's Lynn 1100

Mangotsfield United 850

Merthyr Tydfil 1100

Rugby Town 600

Swindon Supermarine 450

Team Bath 552

Tiverton Town 1000

Yate Town 650

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now in theory this should mean that any of these teams are "playable" within the game. In reality what you get are a number of teams that are promoted often....

AFC Wimbledon

Billericay

Chelmsford City

Margate

Fleetwood

Gateshead

Guiseley

Hednesford

Ilkeston

Marine

Matlock

Prescot Cables

Stamford

Whitby

Witton Albion

Worksop

Bedford

Hitchin

King Lynn

Merthyr Tydfil

Tiverton

..... basically all the teams with a reputation over 1000.

Then you have the teams that are harder to get but which it is still reasonaly likely that you might see in a career spanning 50 seasons or so.....

AFC Hornchurch

Boreham Wood

Carshalton

Harrow

Hendon

Heybridge Swifts

Horsham

Maidstone

Ramsgate

Staines

Tonbridge Angels

Ashton

Buxton

Eastwood

Frickley Ath

Kendal

Leek

Lincoln

North Ferriby

Ossett

Chippenham

Cirencester

Clevedon

Gloucester

Halesowen

Hemel Hempstead

Mangotsfield

...... and then we have the teams with a reputation of 700 or less who it seems are never going to be promoted.

Ashford Town.

East Thurrock

Folkestone

Harlow

Hastings

Leyton

Wealdstone

Bashley

Brackley

Bromsgrove

Cheshunt

Corby

Rugby

Swindon Supermarine

Team Bath

Yate.

If you also take into account the significantly higher reputations of the Northern Premier Leagues clubs then you will see that the odds are stacked even more against a team such as Rugby Town becoming playable.

I would like to see a slight "evening up" in terms of clubs at this level and possibly the introduction of a system whereby all clubs under this level might be able to be promoted but have a pre-set "standard" reputation of something like 500. This would mean that while still possible it would still be VERY unlikely.

I would however like to see a bigger impact on the reputation of lower league clubs such as this, with regards to Cup runs and possible giant killings.

One of the problems at the moment is that in my experience, "grey" non playable teams seem to be performing at a level so far above their ability that at the current time this speculation would be irrelevant anyway.

Anyway, I think this is the route for the future, just not sure how achievable it is in terms of FM09.

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I'm actually quite surprised how low, or high, the reputation is of some of the teams you listed there, hence I agree that there needs to be some balance perhaps.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:

This idea is one I feel needs implementing. No matter what country you are playing in, the only teams that can be promoted into playable leagues are the ones who play in the unplayable leagues that immediately feed into it, or those teams that have been relegated out of a playable league while playing the game. This then gives the same pool of teams (66 in England's case) that can be promoted, and no others.

Why shouldn't the likes of FC United, Sheffield, Kidsgrove Athletic to name just three be able to be promoted to a playable league further down the line?

It's not down to research. As soon as you press continue for the first time, the game world deviates from the real world. And as it would be at least two years since the start of the game before any of these teams can appear in a playable league, having a 'good number' of players at the start isn't a factor, as the AI manager will have been signing and selling in this time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You read my mind, I was thinking of posting a similar thread for the past few days.

Would be great to get an official answer on this one, very valid points and constructive criticism here.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aaberdeenn:

Fair enough that in leagues like Scotland where there is no promotion/relegation from the 3rd division as that is the same as in real life so that's fine. (Although I believe that there is a rule where if you finish bottom of the 3rd division 3 times in a row then you would be replaced by a highland league team; but I'm not aware if this is in the game or if it is actually a rule in real life, it's just what I've heard.)

Feel free to comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.

Who votes I have no idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it's decided by a vote then it's not likely to be in the game right?

Thanks for the clarification on the rule. icon14.gif

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I'd just turned my game off for the night, but having seen Jimbo's post I thought I would reload it and post how these teams below have done in my Bromsgrove save, which is in October 2051...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

...... and then we have the teams with a reputation of 700 or less who it seems are never going to be promoted.

Ashford Town.

East Thurrock

Folkestone

Harlow

Hastings

Leyton

Wealdstone

Bashley

Brackley

Bromsgrove

Cheshunt

Corby

Rugby

Swindon Supermarine

Team Bath

Yate.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ASHFORD TOWN

This is the Middlesex based one. They have played two seperate seasons in Conference South and got relegated on both occasions.

EAST THURROCK UNITED

One season in Conference South in mid 2020s, and three in mid 2040s, highest finish of 17th.

FOLKESTONE INVICTA

22nd in Conference South in 2010/1, three seasons in mid 2030s (highest of 9th) and have returned for the current season.

HARLOW TOWN

One single season in Conference South in 2047/8, finished 21st.

HASTINGS UNITED

Two seasons in Conference South in mid 2020s, returned in 2046/7 when they finished in their highest position of 7th. Still in Conference South (6th season since return).

LEYTON

Two seasons in Conference South - 16th in 2016/7 and 22nd the following season.

WEALDSTONE

One season in Conference South in 2018/9 and got relegated. Returned in 2028/9 and haven't dropped out since, and have also spent four seasons in three spells in the Conference (best finish of 14th).

BASHLEY

They have spent a total of 15 seasons in the Conference South in two spells, finishing 5th twice. They were relegated in 2043/4 and have not returned since.

BRACKLEY TOWN

The lowest of the starting reputations, they first appeared in 2035/6 and were in Conference South for 8 seasons, finishing 8th twice. They have reappeared for this season.

BROMSGROVE ROVERS

21st in Conference North in 2016/7, 18th & 20th in Conference South in late 2020s, they reappeared in Conference North in 2047/8, which is when I decided to start managing (Life Begins At Forty thread in LLM) and I took over at Bromsgrove.

CHESHUNT

Have not yet appeared in the playable leagues.

CORBY TOWN

Three seasons in Conference North when they appeared in 2031/2 - 9th, 6th and 21st. They've yet to return.

RUGBY TOWN

Two previous spells of two seasons each (first appeared in 2028/9), best finish of 8th in Conference South. Might be unique in that they have got relegated from Conference North and South. Have reappeared this season in the North.

SWINDON SUPERMARINE

Appeared in 2038/9 for three seasons in Conference South, best finish of 7th in the middle season. Came back for one season in 2044/5.

TEAM BATH

Easily the best of the teams in Jimbo's lowest group. They appeared in the Conference South in 2020/1 and haven't dropped out since.

An eight season spell in the Conference was immediately followed up by winning the Conference South title, and another six seasons in the Conference.

Their best finish was 2nd, in their second season in the Conference.

YATE TOWN

First appeared in Conference South in 2036/7, finished 9th the following season and were relegated the season after.

Came straight back up, but struggled for two seasons and haven't come back up since.

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As I'm off tomorrow, and don't have to get up, I'll do Jimbo's middle group. Might leave the top group until next time though...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Then you have the teams that are harder to get but which it is still reasonaly likely that you might see in a career spanning 50 seasons or so.....

AFC Hornchurch

Boreham Wood

Carshalton

Harrow

Hendon

Heybridge Swifts

Horsham

Maidstone

Ramsgate

Staines

Tonbridge Angels

Ashton

Buxton

Eastwood

Frickley Ath

Kendal

Leek

Lincoln

North Ferriby

Ossett

Chippenham

Cirencester

Clevedon

Gloucester

Halesowen

Hemel Hempstead

Mangotsfield

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFC HORNCHURCH

First appeared in 2013/4, have spent six seasons in Conference North/South, and got relegated three times. Best of 12th in 2032/3, not seen since 2035/6.

BOREHAM WOOD

Appeared in 2014/5, and have 14 seasons in Conference South in two spells. Best finish of 10th in 2045/6, relegated the following season and not yet come back.

CARSHALTON ATHLETIC

Appeared quickly in 2009/10 and were in Conference South for 4 seasons. Reappeared in 2026/7 where they had their best finish of 12th. Relegated the next season and not returned.

HARROW BOROUGH

Only three seasons - 21st in 2017/8, 22nd in 2020/1 and have reappeared this season.

HENDON

Appeared in 2017/8 and lasted 4 seasons before reappearing in 2033/4. Won promotion to the Conference after 2 seasons back, and in 2049/50 won the Conference, finished 15th on their league debut last season.

HEYBRIDGE SWIFTS

Appeared in Conference South in 2022/3 for 12 seasons, finishing 2nd in 2027/8. Reappeared in 2045/6.

HORSHAM

Ten seasons in Conference South from 2022/3 (best placed 10th). Returned for one season in 2036/7 and have reappeared this season.

MAIDSTONE UNITED

Two spells in Conference South for a total of 11 seasons. First came up in 2012/3, and their best season was their reappeared in 2030/1, finishing 8th. Last relegated in 2036/7.

RAMSGATE

Conference South first saw them in 2019/20, the following season being their best in 4th place. Went back down after 12 seasons, and reappeared for a single season in 2046/7.

STAINES TOWN

Were impressive for much of their 8 seasons of play from 2025/6. Going up at the first attempt, they made a good fight of staying up in the Conference but just failed in 21st. Five seasons of challenging to go back up led to a sudden relegation... and no reappearance.

TONBRIDGE ANGELS

Bit of a yo-yo team, have had 5 spells in Conference South totalling 10 seasons. First appeared in 2011/2, best of 6th was in 2021/2 and their last relegation was 2043/4.

ASHTON UNITED

First came into Conference North in 2028/9 for 4 seasons, finishing in 11th the season before relegation. Came back in 2043/4 but only lasted 2 seasons.

BUXTON

Their single season in 2013/4 didn't bode well, and two seasons of struggle in from 2019/20 didn't either. They pulled things round though next season and won promotion, and stayed in the Conference for 8 seasons, finishing 6th one season. They've been in Conference North since getting relegated from the Conference.

EASTWOOD TOWN

6 seasons in Conference North in 3 spells, they did manage 6th in 2043/4.

First appeared in 2025/6.

FRICKLEY ATHLETIC

6 seasons in 2 spells in Conference North. 8th place in their 2024/5 boded well, but got relegated the season after. Their highest finish of 7th in 2038/9 also leed to a relegation immediately after.

KENDAL TOWN

In their third spell and 9th season in Conference North. First appeared in 2014/5 when they lasted 6 seasons. They reappeared last season (2050/1) and had their best finish of 10th, and currently lead Conference North after 11 games this season.

LEEK TOWN

Appeared in 2014/5 and enjoyed a 24 season run, although 19th in their first season suggested they wouldn't.

Won Conference North in 2027/8 and finished in 22nd in their sole season in the Conference. Relegated in 2037/8 and not come back since.

LINCOLN UNITED

Had an 11 season run from 2018/9, their debut season their best (9th). Reappeared for one season in 2032/3.

NORTH FERRIBY UNITED

After one season in Conference North in 2016/7, they didn't return until 2045/6. Finished 2nd on their return, and 3rd and playoff winners the season after, they've yo-yo'd since, being relegated twice from the Conference and are now in Conference North.

OSSETT TOWN

One season in Conference North, 22nd in 2026/7.

CHIPPENHAM TOWN

Five seasons in 3 spells in Conference North, first appearing in 2008/9. Best finish of 13th.

CIRENCESTER TOWN

Three seasons from 2031/2 in Conference South, they reappeared in 2049/50 and came 2nd last season but lost in the playoffs.

CLEVEDON TOWN

Have yet to appear in the playable leagues.

GLOUCESTER CITY

Appeared for 1 season in 2027/8 and 3 more in 2038/9, which saw their best finish of 11th.

They ground share with Forest Green Rovers apparently, must be the real deal as there is no information of a ground upgrade or build in game.

HALESOWEN TOWN

Two seasons in Conference North from 2021/2 were followed up by 13 more from 2034/5. Highest position of 6th came in 2042/3.

HEMEL HEMPSTEAD TOWN

Appeared first in 2019/20, and have spent 8 seasons in 3 spells in Conference North/South/ Best was 12th in 2047/8.

MANGOTSFIELD UNITED

2013/4 saw their first season and immediate relegation. 16 seasons in 4 spells includes a 12 season run from 2017/8 with 6th their best finish in 2020/1.

Right, I'm off bed now, getting tired. I'll do the remainder when I next load it up, which will probably be tomorrow. Be interesting to see how they all compare...

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I would like to see a Scottish 3rd Division relegation system. It may be unrealistic, but it is quite repetitive seeing the same teams in and out of the league.

Everytime I look at the competitions, Pollok seems to do very well, and it would be pretty cool to see them promoted some how. Also I used to live in Pollok aswell, so it would be cool to play as them.

And also in the English non playable, I'd like to play as Cockfosters. icon_wink.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It may be unrealistic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The game aims to be as realistic as possible without being overcomplicated so this is never going to happen.

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Nobby. Delighted to have been proved wrong in terms of that bottom group no being promoted, (ever) icon14.gif.

Here's a little question for you.....

When you went on your long holiday, what did you do with the detail level of the English leagues.

It's become apparrant recently that SI now used "reputation" for simulating games that are either in non playable leagues or in competitions with low levels of detail activated.

Knowing you I would expect that you set the detail to full, (you do have a decent pc after all), and this may be the reason that you have had the positive results that tou have shown above.

One of my local teams, (Hendon), stand out from the pile as they are now plying their trade in League 2.

The one thing that I would ask, (and It might be something that irks you to), but how many of these lower league teams have achieved success because of feeder relationships? It's gonna be hard to check but the player history records might give you some indication if the players are still active.

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I'm still playing FM05, but i do believe reputation does change for non league teams for cup runs (I now it's not the main point of the thread, but it was brough up earlier, so I thought I'd address it).

In my game Witton Albion had never been in a playable league, ever. Then one season they ade it to the FA Cup quarter finals (beating chelsea on the way) and the very next season appeared in a playable league.

Of course this could just be coincidence, but the timing seems far too much for me to ignore.

PS. I also took over Rugby when they came up, but I wasn't very good with them.

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Jimbo - I never even thought of changing the detail level but the 40 years of holiday play, so it was on whatever setting it was when the game first loaded. On full now though.

Only English leagues are running, which you might know already Jimbo.

I wouldn't know where to start looking reference the feeder clubs, nor which players to start checking on. It might be worth noting though that Hendon currently don't have any affiliates, while Margate (who I'll detail shortly) are parents to Cowdenbeath, Gosport and Kingstonian, and a feeder to Deportivo, none of which are allowed under FA rules.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

I would like to see a Scottish 3rd Division relegation system. It may be unrealistic, but it is quite repetitive seeing the same teams in and out of the league.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only Scottish Third Division relegation system should be the one I detailed above. I don't know if this is in FM08 as I've not played in Scotland on this version.

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Nobby.

Have a look at this thread.

Basically, someone did a holiday experiment that came up with some strange results. The reason that the results appeared strange is that they didn't alter the "detail level" before going on holiday. By doing this, it means that the league is considered an "inactive" laegue and thus results are not calculated in the normal way, but instead "reputation" is used to largely determine results. It's a bit of a cheat if you ask me, but then I suppose it it's classed as an "inactive" league, then I don't really blame them if it saves on processing time.

The thing is that it doesn't produce accurate results. It's something that i only found after reading this thread.

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Nobby...theres no relegation from scottish 3rd if thats what ur meaning

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Right, the check on Jimbo's top group of non league teams.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971

Now in theory this should mean that any of these teams are "playable" within the game. In reality what you get are a number of teams that are promoted often....

AFC Wimbledon

Billericay

Chelmsford City

Margate

Fleetwood

Gateshead

Guiseley

Hednesford

Ilkeston

Marine

Matlock

Prescot Cables

Stamford

Whitby

Witton Albion

Worksop

Bedford

Hitchin

King Lynn

Merthyr Tydfil

Tiverton </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFC WIMBLEDON

Appeared at the first opportunity (what a surprise) and have not gone back to non league since. Have spent roughly half their time in Conference and half in Conference South. Have won the Conference South 3 times, and the Conference once in 2037/8. They only played one season of League Two football though, finishing bottom.

Maybe surprisingly, they have yet to reach the Third Round of the FA Cup.

BILLERICAY TOWN

They have moved to the 9855 all seated Clarke Stadium.

Like Wimbledon, they appeared at the first opportunity and have been in the playable leagues ever since. They have been more successful though, having played more in the Conference than Conference South, and having two spells in the Football League, all 5 seasons being in League Two, with a best finish of 6th in their second season, 2034/5.

One Conference South and two Conference titles to their name.

CHELMSFORD CITY

Came up one season after their near neighbours and spent almost their entire time in Conference South. 2016/7 was their sole season in the Conference (21st) and after relegation in 2032/3, it was 10 years before they reappeared. They've often challenged for promotion but only once achieved it.

MARGATE

Easily the stand out team from the 66 teams who can become playable.

Hartsdown Park now holds 23,739 (22,039 seated) although they are now £22,000,000 in debt as a result.

Their first two spells in the 2010s from 2010/1 were uninspired, but their return in 2030/1 saw them set off on an almost (original) Wimbledon esque rise...

Champions of Conference South that season, they won the Conference in 2036/7 and were promoted again the following season. They struggled that first season in League One but bounced back two season later before winning League One in 2042/3. They are now in their 9th season in the Championship, with their debut season there being their best, 10th position and have reached the Quarter Final in both the FA Cup and League Cup.

FLEETWOOD TOWN

First up for 2013/4, they've had 4 spells in playable leagues totalling 16 seasons. Their longest spell of 7 seasons also saw their sole season in the Conference in 2046/7 where they finished bottom despite amassing 45 points. They also got relegated the following season and haven't returned yet.

GATESHEAD

2008/9 saw them come up and in 2011/2 then won Conference North, but came straight back down and were relegated from Conference North in 2031/2.

They returned in 2045/6, won Conference North for a second time in 2048/9, finished 15th in the Conference the next season and this season is their third back at this level.

GUISELEY

First came to Conference North in 2012/3 and haven't dropped out since. They had two single seasons in the Conference, 21st their best in 2021/2, which was the last time they were there. Won Conference North both times to get there.

HEDNESFORD TOWN

Appeared at the first opportunity, and despite getting relegated from the Conference North three times, they have spent the majority of the time in the playable leagues, 6 seasons of which have been in 3 spells in the Conference. Their best finish was 2nd in 2042/3... they got relegated the following season!

ILKESTON TOWN

2017/8 saw them last two seasons in Conference North. They returned in 2028/9 and have won Conference North 4 times since. In their 17 seasons in the Conference, they have finished 7th three times and 6th once.

MARINE

Appeared in 2009/10 for 9 seasons in Conference North. Returned in 2031/2 for 13 seasons, 5 of which were in 2 spells in the Conference. Conference North champions once, best finish in Conference was 10th in 2039/40.

MATLOCK TOWN

I'm surprised the next three have such high reputations, as historically and currently they don't match the others in this top group.

Matlock have spent all 16 seasons in Conference North - 14 from 2010/1 and 2 from 2039/40. Best finish was 7th in 2021/2.

PRESCOT CABLES

Coming up in 2017/8, their 10 season run saw 1 spent in the Conference in 2044/5. Their 51 points was only enough for bottom spot!

They returned to Conference North in 2040/1 for 1 season, again a high points total (45) couldn't prevent them from finishing bottom.

STAMFORD

One single season in Conference North, in 2021/2 they finished 21st.

WHITBY TOWN

Two sizeable spells in Conference North - 12 season from 2012/3 and 9 more from 2041/2. Best finish was 3rd in 2023/4.

WITTON ALBION

10 seasons in 2 spells early on (from 2011/2), they disappeared for a long time until reappearing for the current 2051/2 season. They finished 4th in 2012/3.

WORKSOP TOWN

From 2011/2 they had 8 seasons of mediocrity and struggle. They returned in 2035/6 and did much better, winning Conference North in 2041/2 but finished bottom in their only Conference season. Still in Conference North.

BEDFORD TOWN

First appeared in 2010/11, they have had 4 spells, all 20 seasons in Conference North/South, their geographical position meaning they are one of the clubs to switch between the two most often. Finished 3rd in Conference North in 2020/1, but were relegated from the South last season.

HITCHIN TOWN

Have rather struggled, two single seasons in 2014/5 and 2022/3 were followed by 4 seasons from 2039/40, with 11th in 2040/1 their best finish.

KING'S LYNN

Started an 8 season spell in Conference North in 2009/10. 2022/3 saw them come back for 17 seasons, with 3 seasons in 2 spells in the Conference, best finish of 10th. They returned again in 2046/7 and are in their 6th season back. Won Conference North twice.

MERTHYR TYDFIL

Are currently in their 4th spell and 19th season in Conference South. 6th place last season was their best yet.

TIVERTON TOWN

First appeared in 2009/10. Relegated straight away but came straight back up, only to last 2 more seasons.

It was 2037/8 before they returned, but they have been in the active leagues ever since, spending 9 seasons in 3 spells in Conference with 5th their best in 2049/50. Now in Conference South again.

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Nobby: Good idea, I was thinking along the same lines and thus saving myself from making a like-wise post.

And looking at countries where "B"/"II" teams are existing (Germany, Spain, Austria, Czech Republic & Norway spring into mind) that it will have the added benefit that not only the "B"/"II" teams that play in a league just under a playable league but finally all "B"/"II" teams have a chance to get promoted into the playable leagues.

Finally it will be possible to bring a lower league team to the top and then some 5-10-20 seasons later see the 2nd team appear in the lowest playable league.

If promotion indeed is related to reputation than the reputation of "B"/"II" teams should be linked to the reputation of the first team as the "B"/"II" team of an initial lower league team will have a fairly low reputation.

That being said I'm wondering if promotion for "B"/"II" teams is properly implemented right now. I checked out the number of 2nd teams in playable leagues for a couple of countries in my save (mid 2018 right now) and compared that to the beginning.

Austria 1 (was 2)

Cz Rep 3 (was 0)

Germany 3 (was 9)

Norway 4 (was 9)

Spain 6 (was 13)

So besides the Czech Republic where B teams are getting promoted to the playable league on a regularly basis all other leagues have seen a steady decline of 2nd teams in playable leagues.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by willz71172:

Nobby...theres no relegation from scottish 3rd if thats what ur meaning </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby:

This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.

Who votes I have no idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Willz, yes there is a possible relegation out of Scottish 3rd in real life. No idea if that's implemented in FM though.

And cut out the txt-speak please.

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i think the game is a lot more likely to promote lower reputation sides than it was in fm07, giving it a little bit more diversity - i remember playing one game in 07 in which wimbledon were relegated and promoted every season for about a decade, their high reputation ensuring they bounced back every time

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To conclude, reputation seems to play a big factor... but this might have been magnified by the fact the leagues may not have been run in full detail during the holiday period (though they have been since). This should not be seen as an oversight by me, as it was never my intention for this to be an experiment of sorts, my intention was to start the game further into it chronologically than I have ever got before.

But... I still think that clubs further down the pyramid should have the opportunity to be promoted into the playable leagues. And why not? Where were Farsley Celtic and Histon 15 years ago? Some way below the Conference is the answer.

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In Portugal a couple of years ago we had a "football crisis" that saw many historical clubs folding, just to restart some seasons later in the regional divisions.

The thing is, they ought to be playing in the nationals in a season or two, regardless of where they are playing now. They are consistently getting promoted every season, nevertheless that will never happen in FM, because they still play this season below the top-most unplayable league.

That's what's unrealistic about it. They even have high reputations (and play domestic friendlies every season against top clubs) but they will never ever play in the nationals.

Of course, I edited the database to allow them to play in the nationals because I seriously think it is a game flaw... but it isn't just the same, because since the promotions are reputation-based they end up being promoted after just 1 season...

PS: another thing badly coded in unplayable leagues is the club debts. Recently my hometown club got relegated to the Portuguese 3rd division after some financial problems, and they're currently last and most probably will be relegated to the regional leagues. Despite that, since their rep is very high, they bounce up in FM after the 1st season, even if we edit the database to give them a huge debt - it just disappears after they promote!

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That seems to be an issue I've noticed playing my current save. Teams like Chasetown and Quorn have been spending anything up to £100,000 on a single player, and paying up to £2000 per week in wages.

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Surely the solution should (and could) easily be the following:

1) Calculate who goes up the the playable leagues as normal.

2) randomly pick the correct number of teams who should be relegated to the level below from those who were not moved into the playable leagues and change the league that they play in. Stick a note in that clubs history that they were relegated to whatever league they are being placed in.

3) randomly pick the correct number of teams noted as playing in the league/s below that feed into that division to move into it, thus giving them the chance to become playable.Stick a note in that clubs history that they were promoted to whatever league they are being placed in.

4) repeat process all the way down the chain for that given country.

5) The lowest included non-playable/s league get no relegation for each nation.

6) You save the game and the non-playable teams retain the changes to the league that they are playing in as per how playable teams retain their changes in ongoing games.

Speaking as a database developer, In database query terms it really shouldn't take up that much processing time considering the amount of other calculations that they game currently performs????

P.S. I really hope that the Scottish 3rd division relegation rule is in, as the stagnancy of the Scottish leagues is what prevents me from bothering to play in it (despite usually having it as playable in most of my games).

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This problem has a simple solution. It something ive championed for a while.

Simply. if SI really have some concern about this but dont have the programming or manpower to implement leagues, then make creating new leagues accessible for the user in the editor.

Once that happens, it wouldnt be too long before downloads start appearing with ryman and unibond leages etc .

With moderately accurate info on the teams too

I know if that option was avilable id get to work straight away

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To be honest I'm astonished that especially since leagues are named, that they aren't more dynamic with pro and rel even if they are unplayable.

It is simple to implement.

It's strange seeing leagues static for ever.

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Nice to see some LLaMas making an appearance in GQ and starting one of the few intelligent threads in here. icon14.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:

Where were Farsley Celtic and Histon 15 years ago? Some way below the Conference is the answer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great point. I've just stumbled across this thread and was going to summarise by saying something along those lines.

To get into the Conference and beyond is never going to happen for the majority of teams below the Conf N/S, but there are lots of sides who can get to this level with a bit of luck.

Who outside of the West Mids non league scene had heard of Chasetown 2 years ago? In FM08, they're effectively ringfenced from ever reaching a playable league, but who's to say they (or indeed anyone else from their league) won't be mixing it with the Boston's and Kettering's of this world in a couple of years time.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:

That seems to be an issue I've noticed playing my current save. Teams like Chasetown and Quorn have been spending anything up to £100,000 on a single player, and paying up to £2000 per week in wages. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not too far off the Chasetown in real life tbh icon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Giziar:

Originally posted by willz71172:

Nobby...theres no relegation from scottish 3rd if thats what ur meaning </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby:

This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.

Who votes I have no idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this happen in the game? Bound to be hard enough to implement. Its the other teams in the league which vote I believe, so its not that likley they'll actully relegate any team anyway. I can't imagine it's too difficult for the game to make up a few unseen promotions and relegations in unplayable leagues. It is a minor issue and only one that becomes aparant in long term games but I think it would be worth resolving.

People say some clubs have no chance of getting promoted but remember at that level a fairly small injection of money or a few good signings can go a long way. Frankly, I don't think anyone would object to the unplayable leagues having teams promoted/relegated at random. Slightly unrealistic in first few years but who can say were Alferton Town or FC United will be a 2018?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fonz:

but who can say were Alferton Town or FC United will be a 2018? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Alfreton haven't got the fan base to sustain Conference (and beyond) football, unfortunately.

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This thread interests me a lot (for obvious reasons).

I once got told by someone at SI that it was possible for teams below the three feeder leagues for the BSN/S to be promoted. I have been doubtful of this since I have never heard of anyone actually seeing it happen.

If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently?

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