2009 idea - Promotion/relegation in unplayable leagues

[aston_martin]

This is a great thread one of the best on here in ages. If all LLaMa's come up with discussions of this quality please visit more often!

[-simmo-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Following restructuring, each of the three feeder leagues has two leagues below it - so that's a total of six additional league.

[dafuge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -simmo-:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Following restructuring, each of the three feeder leagues has two leagues below it - so that's a total of six additional league. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be the minimum research requirements be for these six leagues? Would just the reputation of the clubs be enough?

[dafuge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aston_martin:

This is a great thread one of the best on here in ages. If all LLaMa's come up with discussions of this quality please visit more often! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As long as they don't post "TG! KUTGW!!" in every single thread.

[-simmo-]

Hard to say really, dafuge.

Seeing as they can't get promoted until season 3, if implemented correctly, then I personally feel their reputation alone would be sufficient.

The reason for this is that, in real life, clubs at this sort of level have a much higher turnover of players so by the time they got to the Conf N / S it will be a largely different squad anyway.

So, other than reputation and cosmetic stuff like stadium, finance and attendances (which is already in the db anyway), I can't see too much of a problem.

There are some clubs in the three feeders, and indeed the Conf N/S, that do not have researchers, whereas some level eight clubs do have researchers anyway so in some cases reasonable info is already there anyway.

[dafuge]

It would be interesting to hear the reason why this can't happen in the game. Could it be because of the more obscure nations in the game?

[-simmo-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

It would be interesting to hear the reason why this can't happen in the game. Could it be because of the more obscure nations in the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think now restructuring is sorted (there were only 5 feeders last season), then it could be coded in for FM09, time and priority permitting of course.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

What would be the minimum research requirements be for these six leagues? Would just the reputation of the clubs be enough? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't have thought a great deal of research would be needed, so long as the teams concerned are active in signing players by the time they get promoted their squad(s) should have a sufficient number of players to make them reasonably playable.

The key element would be to ensure that the club information such as stadium name/size, geographical location & key staff are correct when the db is loaded at the start of any save & most if not all of that information should be available via the web.

As for deciding promotion reputation along with some 'RNG' running in the background should be ok, I imagine there wouldn't be any huge differences in the reputations of clubs that far down the footballing pyramid anyway.

[Spagbol]

I'd like to see non-league feeder clubs getting a higher chance of promotion, double so from bellow where normal teams can get promoted from.

It should be a given that if you send your bellow league feeder good youth players for two or more seasons they enter the pot for promotion to the conf s/n.

I mean, it's not often teams have strikers scoring fourty and don't get promoted. Right?

The other issue is that it makes those clubs more usefull if you're a higher league team. As it stands they play non-existant games. I'd love to help a poor local team progress to the regional conference and from there on up by sending them all my youth players.

[Spagbol]

Sorry for the double post, but as far as research goes in Dafuge's challenge I got Carshalton with zero players aside from the youth team of newgens when they were promoted.

It's lovely having a clean slate, I'm sure many people wouldn't mind starting afresh with a club with no players that was promoted.

And as noted stadium, attendances, etc are all ready in the database. If a club has no details surely it could just be generated a 'local town name stadium' and such?

[dafuge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spagbol:

Sorry for the double post, but as far as research goes in Dafuge's challenge I got Carshalton with zero players aside from the youth team of newgens when they were promoted.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strangely, this was an issue that was recognised and fixed with one of the patches for FM07, it is surprising to see that it has happened again with FM08.

[N^G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

None! Just select random teams to go up and down in those non-playable divisions based on the value that is stored for the league that the team is designated as playing in!

Not knowing the ins and outs of whatever database system SI use for their game, using SQL as a comparison it would literally be as simple as something similar to the following (you may have to exclude teams moved into the division by previous queries during the end of season league/fixture generation);

SELECT Team_ID FROM Teams

WHERE Division = "Isthmian League Division One North"

ORDER BY RAND()

LIMIT 1;

"Team_ID" being the teams identifier field, "Teams" being the table that the team is stored in, "Division" being the column in the table whereby the value for what league competition that team is currently playing in is stored and "Limit" being the number of teams to be promoted.

For relegation, it would be exactly the same query except excluding the clubs that were selected as being promoted, and possibly a different Limit depending on how many teams are supposed to be relegated.

Then those clubs Division value would have to be changed, and a note added to their club history pertaining to promotion/relegation.

In terms of processing time, well lets just say that this forum page alone performs far more complicated database queries than the above.

[N^G]

Note that that doesn't cover the allocation of which league each team would move into (for example where tiers are split into regional variations of the same level of football), but it simply choosing random sides at that level of the game avoids any sort of reputation based simulation with pretty much minimum effort.

[Joren V]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by N^G:

but it simply choosing random sides at that level of the game avoids any sort of reputation based simulation with pretty much minimum effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But we don't want that, do we? Reputation should be a factor to choose the teamss that go up/down, just as current division and general quality of the squad should be factors as well.

[N^G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joren V:

But we don't want that, do we? Reputation should be a factor to choose the teamss that go up/down, just as current division and general quality of the squad should be factors as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and no, in the interests of good old realism, we probably do want reputation to be a factor, because it keeps the game as true to its often touted claim of being realistic as it can.

However we also don't, as extra stuff would have to be included for all these currently-never-playables such as re-evaluating their reputation every season based on cup performances, as well as having to take into consideration sugar daddy type board takeovers and the like that could have a major impact at that level (as it does at most levels) depending on the comparitive wealth of the club in question's rivals.

If based on reputation (and it probably would be as most of those non-playables are grey teams on a medium database, don't know about large), and assuming that reputation progressively gets lower at the lowest levels of football included in the game (I admittedly don't know this as a fact as I haven't bothered to check the editor), you would probably never get to see any of the teams from the most obscure divisions as they would likely just see-saw down there based on their reputation which would have little opportunity to progress to a significant extent outside whatever round they reached in their respective national cups.

I guess the question would be whether most people be willing to sacrifice a division or two from elsewhere in their usual game setup to accommodate the examples above amongst other details for teams that they can't even view the league tables for. I'd be happy with it, and plenty of players who enjoy lower leagues would probably prefer it that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if "why can my pc handle fewer leagues than before" became the latest "closing down" or "shots:goals ratio" crisis in the community if non-playable leagues were given the detail that they deserve in order to improve the game's realism.

Thats why I'd personally go with simply randomising it, as most people (myself included) don't know their Woodford Utd's from their Abington Towns, but would like to see small teams from the lowest reaches of the league pyramids appear as playables from time to time.

[spoonguardreturns]

I think that, if it was possible to implement, I wouldn't mind about it being purely random who was promoted/relegated. At that level, I'd imagine reputations would be mostly the same, and it would save a lot of programming time and loading time, without making much difference - although those who want their non-league team to eventually get promoted to a league, and try this by giving them 10000 reputation would be disappointed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by N^G:

Most people (myself included) don't know their Woodford Utd's from their Abington Towns </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it's Abingdon Town. Sorry to be pedantic, but it's very close to where I live.

[Nobby_McDonald]

I play on a large database and some unplayable teams have been active in signing players (some even being silly - Quorn and Chasetown have both this season signed a player for a six figure transfer fee and paying them a four figure weekly wage). Others though have done nothing and have an all grey squad, which in turn leads to the problem of the grey teams being much better than they should be (see other threads).

I'm very interested to see what people from SI think about this, and if it's something they might be able to work into the 2009 version.

[Scoham]

Tempted to holiday to 2020 now to manage Hastings

Bottom of the BSS with Tonbridge, second season, can't win as morale is stuck at very poor because I let the assistant manage friendlies and didn't realise the last friendly was Leyton Orient and they got thrashed 6-0.

How do the regens look in 2050?

[Nobby_McDonald]

There is one that looks like an escaped convict, my scout found him on a search, possibly at a prison match.

Look in what sense Scoham?

[Nobby_McDonald]

Oh, worth noting in addition to the large database, I retained all English players, as it is the only country's leagues I'm running.

[Scoham]

Realistic attributes, best players are as good as they are at the start of the game, lower league clubs don't have much better or much worse players etc.