Regen Theory

[small Mac]

How good do people generally feel the Newgens are compared to FM07? I played 20 odd seasons in a game on FM07 and thought Newgens were quite good but still needed improvement. Haven't played more than 3 seasons on FM08 yet and things don't sound to good. Have SI taken a step in the wrong direction?

[Guest mikeytwigge]

Tevez and people wouldnt be regens back then they would be very young players which i am guessing you have got players like bojan in your top 20

[pelicanstuff]

RE: FM07

I ran several holiday tests on FM07 and analysed the quality of regens over periods of 20 years or so, since I thought at the time that they were awful.

What I found was that for the first 5-6 years, the number of talented youngsters decreased slightly. I figure this is partly due to older players with higher reputations being picked for national teams leading to fewer opportunities for youngers.

After this 5-6 year period however, the number of talented regens increased significantly to the extent that general player quality was far higher after 15 years than at the beginning of the game. I checked my own findings with FM Scout and by their scoring system, maybe twenty times as many players on average had current or potential rating of over 80% .

The quality of championship football was, in terms of players, similar to the standard that premiership football outside the top 4 was at the start of the game. Goals-to-game ratios for the strikers especially were ludicrously high (especially in internationals).

I reckon the regen system is not doing too badly.

[pelicanstuff]

Originally posted by Golaxi:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">jumping less than 12, ST with no pace or jumping, MC with no stamina, GK with no agility...etc etc just make the regen so weak and no functioning while compare with the default players in the database.

i think if anything the young players should have better physical attributes than their older counterparts. no top club would hire a youth player with 5 pace unless every other stat was AMAAAAAZING.

and even if they lack slight pace and accelleration attributes you would've thought they would have good strength and jumping especially if there a defender.

the clubs firstly look at physicall attributes for youngsters anyway so its definately waaay off the mark in terms of realism. im not getting it again for pc untill regens are more realistic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A 15-16 year old will not have developed physical stats to their potential as they are still growing. They will take until 19-20 to hone them fully at the very least. Plus, strength develops much more slowly.

[DiamondPirate]

Phsyical stats are totally weird anyway. Only increase whilst really young. Sorry, but Strength can be massively gained at any point of a footballer career. Sure, people in thier 50's 60's cant, but any footballer put on a good strength training course for 6 months could easily go from 7 str to at least 12-13.

I think Physical stat training in generally needs reworking. In that above example, he would get a big strength increase but the increased muscle mass is likely to reduce pace, balance and agility (Accel would be uneffected, probably even increased slightly.) Its also going to decrease injury proneness.

I'd would certain make it actually seem like I'm training players. One of the things that really annoys me is that unless you spend days analysising systematically the training system, you cannot effectively mould a player. And even then, your only able to do that if you happen to be a minor maths genious.

[jbrowes]

Originally posted by small Mac:

How good do people generally feel the Newgens are compared to FM07? I played 20 odd seasons in a game on FM07 and thought Newgens were quite good but still needed improvement. Haven't played more than 3 seasons on FM08 yet and things don't sound to good. Have SI taken a step in the wrong direction?

I feel very disappointed with the low quality regens coming into the game. I have played three long games on FM08 and have yet to find a gem!

When you think of the constant improvement in training (any sport!), equipment and technique there should really be an abundance of talent (low/medium/CLASS)coming thru the ranks.

If you look at any other sport you will probaly find a couple of gems coming onto the scene each year. Its just a pity that soccer is losing out.

[Bluenose_92]

I've had many great quality regens, sure they're from obscure nations and therefore worth nothing.

but look about

I prefer them to be cheap as chips

[MSCCG]

I'd say the stats at the moment is warped. I believe we are going through something of a 'golden period' of young players at the moment, however yes I have not noticed even one youngster exploding onto the scene as a 16 year old or even a 20 year old world class regen right now.

That being said, we don't have much information right now on this and we are basing this on our own biased opinion. As a statistician (or a student of statistics anyway) I refuse to make any type of sweeping statement on this until we have done more testing.

[Duttz]

The regens in FM 06 and 07 were the best I've ever seen, exactly what it should be - Wonderkids, balanced attributes and top regen players in the national team in their teens/early 20's etc. SI certainly know how to get it right, so it can't be too hard for them to sort it out...

I had a regen that was probably the best player I've ever had on any FM or CM game in 07. was a wonderkid CB, 18 when i bought him with santa clara. When I bought him for about 30 mil as manager of chelsea at 22 he was the best CB in the world, a regular for Brazil, world footballer of the year after 1st season with Chesea, he had great pace, strength, jumping, tackling, heading, positioning, marking etc (all the right stats for best CB in the world!!) and was good at getting forward, would score 15+ goals a season... I doubt a player like that would appear in 08 if you played for 1000 seasons.

there some great player but overall regens in 08 are terrible and unbalanced. it ruins the game for anyone who wants to play more than 5 seasons...they should be making regens and youth development #1 priority for 09 by far. Apart from improving the player interaction, man management, team talk type stuff there is not much that needs improving... there is only one major flaw in the game and it's the regens!!

[andrew bowditch]

i dont think there is that much wrong with them, ok the CA may be low but still you get good youngsters.

in my game (man utd in 2009) i have a regen pushing veloso for the DM place (16 yr old english Mid with good stats) a 16 year old Attacking Mid playing good backup when ronaldo is out and a 17 yr old DRLC from italy who is being chased by milan and chelsea.

i downloaded mini scout to check these out

Beevor - 16 - DM - CA = 118 - PA = 196

Martin - 16 - AMR - CA = 99 - PA = 182

Mazzone - 17 - DRLC - CA = 103 - PA = 189

now they certainly seem good enough to play for me and to become world stars by the time they are 18-19, ok some 15 yr olds are coming up with CA as 70 to start but with good training schedules, learning off players, and some match exposure they appear to develop well

not to mention i had a striker who i thought was good through, turned out to have a PA of 140 odd but he started with ACC and pace of 18, so doesnt seem too bad

[toon army 06]

i think in this game you have to have money lots of it as the young players are hard to spot and sometimes your scouts can underrate them and comapre them to your best player in that postion which does not really tell you how good the young player is.

[kancit5667]

Currently, 9 years into a Celtic franchise and the European regens are mostly awful. Maybe one or two great ones every couple of years. I have Brazil as a playable league in the game and they get great regens for some reason. I scout Brazil like mad and purchase 15-17 year olds for peanuts. They join me when they turn 18 and usually have a decent enough CA that they can reach their potential given the right developing. Now, if I can just stop the EPL teams from poaching them from me, I'll be golden.

[x42bn6]

For me, Brazil is one of the worst places as I need to get them ideally when they are 15-16, and at 17 it's often too late. You need to get them playing lots of games quickly.

If there is a big of good news, it's that I only encounter high CA youngsters that have a pitiful PA (something like at 16, they are 100/130), so good CA breeds good PA. I always say that if you have the attributes in the correct places, it is possible to have Premiership-standard players with CAs of 160 - see Fletcher, whom my scouts actually rate as good as Anderson (4 stars).

[jbrowes]

Originally posted by andrew bowditch:

in my game (man utd in 2009) i have a regen pushing veloso for the DM place (16 yr old english Mid with good stats) a 16 year old Attacking Mid playing good backup when ronaldo is out and a 17 yr old DRLC from italy who is being chased by milan and chelsea.

i downloaded mini scout to check these out

Beevor - 16 - DM - CA = 118 - PA = 196

Martin - 16 - AMR - CA = 99 - PA = 182

Mazzone - 17 - DRLC - CA = 103 - PA = 189

I have never in the last 6 seasons found a regen with anything like the potential you list above. If a regen arrives at Chelsea with a PA of 130 - Steve Clarke gets all excited and selects him as a future star!!!

I will obviously have to spend more time looking in different countries, because if they really do exist then I wants to buy a few!

[Emile Heskey's stepovers]

The problem isn't the quality of Regens, rather the games valuation of players. If you wanted mind could you get a program like mini-scout or whatever, search for regens (don't know if its possible on mini scout but was on FM scout last year) with a CA of over 150, I reckon you'd be surprised how many turn up.

[santy001]

Ironically at my team in iceland, my facilities are now fully rated and can't be improved any further, and in the first season the regens that come through after seeing two with 5* and one with 7* potential, dug out the editor, checked their PA's and two have over 150, and the other is over 180 - just in the first year of having full facilities.

The general trend for all players coming through now though is greater than the league, which is good because it'll improve the league standard in a few years time.

[Guest Metaphysical]

Originally posted by nojabold:

maybe Barcelona did want to keep fabregas, the point I was making is that had he stayed there he probably wouldn't have reached his potential, and certainly not as quickly as he has at Arsenal. Fabregas himself said that he was unsure about moving to Arsenal so young, but he is glad he did now because so many of the players he played with are still struggling and he would probably only be with the third team by now, not playing champs league and international football.

I'm sorry, this is just ridiculous.

fabregas played in the same youth team as messi and pique. and a whole load of other average players. yes the vast majority of the class of '87 are floundering now, and here's why... they're not that good. they're the '130PA' guys. etc. whereas messi, pique and fabregas were the '190PA' guys in that amazing group.

as for getting more chances/reaching his potential at arsenal, that's absolutely ridiculous. barcelona is THE premier place for talent-production outside of brazil (as a whole country). no club can compete with the brilliance they consistently produce. and bring through. the name lionel messi sound familiar? victor valdes? carles puyol? oleguer? xavi? andres iniesta? bojan? or, hell, how about pepe reina? or mikel arteta? luis garcia? ringing any bells? sergio garcia? hellooo? francesc fabregas? fran merida? anyone in there??

if fabregas was good enough (which he was. with messi and pique he was the standout from that team) he'd have made it into the first team like others before him. but first-team football is not why he (or pique) left barcelona. they left for one reason and one reason only.

MONEY.

sorry to go off-topic there but it really grinds my gears [/petergriffin] when people misrepresent the fabregas/arsenal/barca deal.

for my 2p worth, regens suck at physical stats and their technical and mental stats are sparsely populated but spectacular. you rarely get balanced regens. and yes, no wonderkids.

[pelicanstuff]

Originally posted by Duttz:

The regens in FM 06 and 07 were the best I've ever seen, exactly what it should be - Wonderkids, balanced attributes and top regen players in the national team in their teens/early 20's etc. SI certainly know how to get it right, so it can't be too hard for them to sort it out...

I had a regen that was probably the best player I've ever had on any FM or CM game in 07. was a wonderkid CB, 18 when i bought him with santa clara. When I bought him for about 30 mil as manager of chelsea at 22 he was the best CB in the world, a regular for Brazil, world footballer of the year after 1st season with Chesea, he had great pace, strength, jumping, tackling, heading, positioning, marking etc (all the right stats for best CB in the world!!) and was good at getting forward, would score 15+ goals a season... I doubt a player like that would appear in 08 if you played for 1000 seasons.

And you call that realistic? No 22 year old is going to be the best CB in the world, full stop. In FM07 the regens were far far too good. There has possibly been a slight trend the other way this game, but it's ridiculous that everyone expects a star to come through their youth team every year. It just doesn't happen.

[aenariel]

There has possibly been a slight trend the other way this game

You can bet on that.

In Portugal we would say, "nem 8 nem 80", "neither 8 nor 80": SI seemingly got from near one extreme to the other in a single year.

[pelicanstuff]

well, let's hope we get a happy medium this time round. If somebody could do a proper holiday test over several games with lots of leagues selected, using scout to look at the % scores, that would be great - it would be useful to see how severe the problem is.

I've uninstalled 08 for other reasons, and don't plan on reinstalling it as of now, but if no-one else wants to do it, I suppose I might consider it...

[Ryknow]

In FM07 I was quite happy with regens as I got some really top players, when at Rangers got a great young goalie that was eventually snapped up by man utd for 10mil and was first choice keeper.

With 08 I havnt really played it long enough as I was playing 07 up till the 8.0.2 patch and a player picture mod came out.

Currently I have some good regen players but I dont seem them being world class.

[andrew bowditch]

Originally posted by jbrowes:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andrew bowditch:

in my game (man utd in 2009) i have a regen pushing veloso for the DM place (16 yr old english Mid with good stats) a 16 year old Attacking Mid playing good backup when ronaldo is out and a 17 yr old DRLC from italy who is being chased by milan and chelsea.

i downloaded mini scout to check these out

Beevor - 16 - DM - CA = 118 - PA = 196

Martin - 16 - AMR - CA = 99 - PA = 182

Mazzone - 17 - DRLC - CA = 103 - PA = 189

I have never in the last 6 seasons found a regen with anything like the potential you list above. If a regen arrives at Chelsea with a PA of 130 - Steve Clarke gets all excited and selects him as a future star!!!

I will obviously have to spend more time looking in different countries, because if they really do exist then I wants to buy a few! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

quick update on them,

Beevor - now 18 - CA 140 - PA 196

Martin - Now 18 - CA 115 - PA 182

Mazzone - 18 - CA 131 - PA 189

Martin has slowed down compared to the other two as i sent him on, loan, and dispite playing well he didnt improve, then once he come back his training hasnt really picked up unlike the other two

i also seen a striker on mini scout who i am thinking of buying dispite it being cheating, his PA is 198 and CA is 95 at the age of 15

[Blue Flag]

Enjoyed reading this thread so may aswell add my small contribution.

People will say you shouldn't have to do this (true) and that it constitutes cheating (sort of) but I have over ridden the production of regens on my game and it has made it so much more enjoyable and a big part of the reason I'm currently playing such a long save.

I downloaded FMM and when the dates come round for producing new players I go on an edit spree. I will very occasionally do one of my players but usually I go round making sure there is an even distribution of talent coming through, for example on my game I have Italy only as a background league and the top Italian clubs no home grown youngsters at the top clubs, which in my experience soon leads to the clubs from the nations that have fully playable leagues dominating european competitions so on July 3rd I picked a few regens and 'topped them up'.

Of course this means I know who a lot of the top youngsters are, but in fairness I rarely sign them and you could find this out by scouting anyway and to me it makes the game feel more real.

Learnt some interesting things doing it also.

Firstly, it's definately not just about pa as to begin with I just cranked that up and it made little differnce to their ability (though interestingly it did make them very attractive to other clubs).

Secondly even if you make the CA really high to begin with (like a young Michael Owen type) this does not mean they will play all the time - does this mean managers take reputation into account?

When you create the regens you can have fun creating types also - I created a brazilian with so much talent but the worst attitude in the world, a youngster who was brilliant at 16 but really injury prone. Watching these players along side your game makes it really intersting.

Bit of a long post to say yes I think regens don't work as they should and then to brag that they do on my game (though yes I had to cheat to make it happen)

[Blue Flag]

Edited to make sense:

I downloaded FMM and when the dates come round for producing the regens I go on an edit spree. I will very occasionally 'up' one of the players from my club but usually I go round making sure there is an even distribution of talent coming through, for example on my game I have Italy playing only as a background league and at the minute the top Italian clubs have no quality home grown youngsters, which in my experience soon leads to the clubs from the nations that I have fully playable dominating the european competitions so on July 3rd I picked a few Italian regens and 'topped them up'.

[rimm!]

I think some people seem to think the issue is the amount of wonderkids being generated when actually i think its the amount of average players thats the problem. a few people have mentioned that theyve found the odd wonderkid in their game but look how many are in the game at the start!! event johnny evans can be turned into a wonderkid after a few months in the first team. The biggest problem remains the fact that none of the regens are good enough, or ever get good enough, for first team action at their club. Theres no in game equivalent of, for example, Chris Eagles, Ronnie Wallwork, Matthew Rose, Neil Mellor, etc who whilst not good enough for the top teams they started at, they find a reasonably successful career in the championship or lower premiership.

[JohnShaft]

Blue Flag that sounds like a good way to help deal with SI once again doing a poor job with newgens. Every year we're told they'll be "right". Every year we find out they're seriously flawed, usually physically, for their position.

I wish there was a mass edit program instead of just FMM, because I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Especially as I'm just getting to the point were poor newgens are starting to skew the game.

[Tom Leeburn]

Originally posted by Metaphysical:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nojabold:

maybe Barcelona did want to keep fabregas, the point I was making is that had he stayed there he probably wouldn't have reached his potential, and certainly not as quickly as he has at Arsenal. Fabregas himself said that he was unsure about moving to Arsenal so young, but he is glad he did now because so many of the players he played with are still struggling and he would probably only be with the third team by now, not playing champs league and international football.

I'm sorry, this is just ridiculous.

fabregas played in the same youth team as messi and pique. and a whole load of other average players. yes the vast majority of the class of '87 are floundering now, and here's why... they're not that good. they're the '130PA' guys. etc. whereas messi, pique and fabregas were the '190PA' guys in that amazing group.

as for getting more chances/reaching his potential at arsenal, that's absolutely ridiculous. barcelona is THE premier place for talent-production outside of brazil (as a whole country). no club can compete with the brilliance they consistently produce. and bring through. the name lionel messi sound familiar? victor valdes? carles puyol? oleguer? xavi? andres iniesta? bojan? or, hell, how about pepe reina? or mikel arteta? luis garcia? ringing any bells? sergio garcia? hellooo? francesc fabregas? fran merida? anyone in there??

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

most of your list have had to leave barca to get first team football. it seems to be fairly random who gets to stay and get into the first team as well - victor valdes and oleguer are pretty terrible players, who really bring down the level of the side.

there is no way fabregas would have got as much playing time at barca as he has at arsenal (where he has been in the first XI since 17). he has been arsenals key central midfielder for the last two years, if he was at barca with iniesta, xavi and deco all ahead of him, he would have struggled to get a consistent run in the side.

wenger has a slightly perverse inclination to playing young players, which few other teams/mamagers will match.

[Tom Leeburn]

Originally posted by Blue Flag:

Enjoyed reading this thread so may aswell add my small contribution.

People will say you shouldn't have to do this (true) and that it constitutes cheating (sort of) but I have over ridden the production of regens on my game and it has made it so much more enjoyable and a big part of the reason I'm currently playing such a long save.

I downloaded FMM and when the dates come round for producing new players I go on an edit spree. I will very occasionally do one of my players but usually I go round making sure there is an even distribution of talent coming through, for example on my game I have Italy only as a background league and the top Italian clubs no home grown youngsters at the top clubs, which in my experience soon leads to the clubs from the nations that have fully playable leagues dominating european competitions so on July 3rd I picked a few regens and 'topped them up'.

Of course this means I know who a lot of the top youngsters are, but in fairness I rarely sign them and you could find this out by scouting anyway and to me it makes the game feel more real.

Learnt some interesting things doing it also.

Firstly, it's definately not just about pa as to begin with I just cranked that up and it made little differnce to their ability (though interestingly it did make them very attractive to other clubs).

Secondly even if you make the CA really high to begin with (like a young Michael Owen type) this does not mean they will play all the time - does this mean managers take reputation into account?

When you create the regens you can have fun creating types also - I created a brazilian with so much talent but the worst attitude in the world, a youngster who was brilliant at 16 but really injury prone. Watching these players along side your game makes it really intersting.

Bit of a long post to say yes I think regens don't work as they should and then to brag that they do on my game (though yes I had to cheat to make it happen)

i used to do the same when i played the game on a pc (now use a mac - no editors available)

one thing i did in particular was increase the ca of many of the young players with a good PA. e.g if you boost the ca of a 17yr old with 180+ PA to 120 or above they have a much better chance of making it.

I would also edit attributes for positions - e.g strikers should not have good long throw, centre backs should not have 20 for corner taking (happens an awful lot in my current save!) If you reduce these pointless attributes to 1 it will allow the rest of the atributes to go higher as the PA wont be wasted filling up the junk aatributes.

obviously you need to give a few players some pace and jumping where necessary.

Like you I used to make these edits across the board, not just for my own players. I did stick to editing players that had initially high PA though - so as to maintain their random distribution.

[Tom Leeburn]

Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Duttz:

The regens in FM 06 and 07 were the best I've ever seen, exactly what it should be - Wonderkids, balanced attributes and top regen players in the national team in their teens/early 20's etc. SI certainly know how to get it right, so it can't be too hard for them to sort it out...

I had a regen that was probably the best player I've ever had on any FM or CM game in 07. was a wonderkid CB, 18 when i bought him with santa clara. When I bought him for about 30 mil as manager of chelsea at 22 he was the best CB in the world, a regular for Brazil, world footballer of the year after 1st season with Chesea, he had great pace, strength, jumping, tackling, heading, positioning, marking etc (all the right stats for best CB in the world!!) and was good at getting forward, would score 15+ goals a season... I doubt a player like that would appear in 08 if you played for 1000 seasons.

And you call that realistic? No 22 year old is going to be the best CB in the world, full stop. In FM07 the regens were far far too good. There has possibly been a slight trend the other way this game, but it's ridiculous that everyone expects a star to come through their youth team every year. It just doesn't happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

maldini, sol cambell (and arguably rio) where all arguably world class at 22, though whether they where the very 'best' in the world is more arguable. John terry arguably hit his peak in his early twenties and has been declining due to injuries ever since.

[glynners_7]

I'm sure the problem with national teams picking old players late into the game has been discussed loads.

Its nothing to do with low quality regens its to do with the older players reputation not falling over the years

[pelicanstuff]

How many players from the 'player screen' would still be there now?!? And the likes of C Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi, Fabregas, Kompany, Garay, Veloso, Benzema, Robinho, Ben Arfa, Mascherano, Tevez, Silva

By the way, C Ronaldo, Kaka, Kompany, Veloso, Mascherano and Tevez are all in the 01/02 database, as young players that aren't developed yet.

[Pangaea]

The issue with regens is something that has always bothered me about these games. The serious lack of not just top class but also good/average players amazes me for a game like this. If it was me making this game I would totally over exagerate the quality of regens rather than have 90% of them totally useless, so more and more people buy my game!

Im currently seven seasons into a game and it occured to me the other day while looking at the 'player search' screen, with no filters on, that not one regen made it anywhere near the first page of players(sorted by value). So in other words all the top players in 2015 are the same as in 2007!!!

Think back seven versions of this game. That would be CM00/01 or CM01/02 yeah? How many players from the 'player screen' would still be there now?!? And the likes of C Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi, Fabregas, Kompany, Garay, Veloso, Benzema, Robinho, Ben Arfa, Mascherano, Tevez, Silva etc wern't even in the database, so you could say are regens since then!!

I find it interesting to think that way!

SI how will you get around this problem? Why can't more world class/top class/good/average players be generated each season?

Where's the theory?? I don't even see an attempt at one.

[Nevermore FC]

Regarding all these regen controversy, I think people is leaning to much to both sides. Some people fail to see how good some good regens are and some people think that there's no issue because they got a couple of those in their squad.

I do think that there is a problem with the regens but it's more about the development of those by AI managers. In the search players list in my 2013 game there are two regens in the top 15. One of them my former Portuguese star, now in Real Madrid after a over 40M transaction and some other guy playing for Inter.

I decided to play Pedro (my Portuguese ex star) since he was pretty young and soon he became a fan favorite and regular in my prime eleven (along Owen, over Martin and Falcao). He got himself the Fans Player of the Year and after that was snatch out of my fingers by the Real Madrid.

The other guy passed trough a couple French teams, then to Lazio (all of them free transfers) and then became a 44M player.

I think the issue is about teams not playing their regens and teams not buying regens. And this is a huge reputation problem. Players that succeed in international youth competitions are chased by teams irl and thise never happens in fm.

[Golaxi]

I'm sorry, this is just ridiculous.

fabregas played in the same youth team as messi and pique. and a whole load of other average players. yes the vast majority of the class of '87 are floundering now, and here's why... they're not that good. they're the '130PA' guys. etc. whereas messi, pique and fabregas were the '190PA' guys in that amazing group.

as for getting more chances/reaching his potential at arsenal, that's absolutely ridiculous. barcelona is THE premier place for talent-production outside of brazil (as a whole country). no club can compete with the brilliance they consistently produce. and bring through. the name lionel messi sound familiar? victor valdes? carles puyol? oleguer? xavi? andres iniesta? bojan? or, hell, how about pepe reina? or mikel arteta? luis garcia? ringing any bells? sergio garcia? hellooo? francesc fabregas? fran merida? anyone in there??

if fabregas was good enough (which he was. with messi and pique he was the standout from that team) he'd have made it into the first team like others before him. but first-team football is not why he (or pique) left barcelona. they left for one reason and one reason only.

MONEY.

sorry to go off-topic there but it really grinds my gears [/petergriffin] when people misrepresent the fabregas/arsenal/barca deal.

for my 2p worth, regens suck at physical stats and their technical and mental stats are sparsely populated but spectacular. you rarely get balanced regens. and yes, no wonderkids.

Fabregas wasn't just gonna become a star because of his PA. he already was a fantastic player and had a high CA at his young age. Most top players dont start off AWFULL and unable to play football then suddenly because of their "PA" become amazing players. they usually already have the talent.

[fonz]

Since all these probelms have been in every CM/FM game I can remember playing, I think we have to accept this is something which is very difficult to change. There is an obvious solution to it: keep playing through the 'bad' years and eventully all the real players retire. International teams have to pick regens as do the big-name clubs and the first team football seems to make the regens (though their supposed to be called something else now aren't they?) improve.

There are good regens in any game, it just seems there aren't enough to build a team around at a point in the game were there should be (2015-ish). I think it would actully be easier to accept if the regens were just of lower quality rather than of uneven quality. Many seem to have excellent technical attributes but dreadful physiscal attributes so they will never make it as a top flight footballer. I get awful frustrated with excellent centre-backs who can't jump and are thus all but useless. The uneven distribution of ability means the real players and the regens, at the worst times, almost seem to be playing a different brand of football.

[lewis999]

Since all these probelms have been in every CM/FM game I can remember playing, I think we have to accept this is something which is very difficult to change. There is an obvious solution to it: keep playing through the 'bad' years and eventully all the real players retire. International teams have to pick regens as do the big-name clubs and the first team football seems to make the regens (though their supposed to be called something else now aren't they?) improve.

There are good regens in any game, it just seems there aren't enough to build a team around at a point in the game were there should be (2015-ish). I think it would actully be easier to accept if the regens were just of lower quality rather than of uneven quality. Many seem to have excellent technical attributes but dreadful physiscal attributes so they will never make it as a top flight footballer. I get awful frustrated with excellent centre-backs who can't jump and are thus all but useless. The uneven distribution of ability means the real players and the regens, at the worst times, almost seem to be playing a different brand of football.

How many leagues are you running pelicanstuff mate? From what i've read on here and elsewhere, and i cant say so myself as I haven't had much time to play fm for a sustained period of time due to other things it seems to me that it differs on each players game. Obviously if someone says the regen quality in their game is good then it has to be as no-one would lie about a thing like this as you wouldn't have anything to gain by it. So to me it seems like when you load a new game up put a considerable amount of leagues on and cross your Fr****ng fingers

[small Mac]

I think the lower starting CAs and slower development have been put in by design. On FM07 it was too easy to buy in a young player with high PA, stick him in the reserves and watch him develop into a top class player by the time they're 21. This resulted in alot more wonderkids but also gave the problem that many players had fully developed by the time they were 22/23 which is unrealistic.

However SI have obviously gone too far in slowing development and its resulted in many of the problems mentioned on these forums.

[Amaroq]

Firstly, it's definately not just about pa as to begin with I just cranked that up and it made little differnce to their ability (though interestingly it did make them very attractive to other clubs).

Secondly even if you make the CA really high to begin with (like a young Michael Owen type) this does not mean they will play all the time - does this mean managers take reputation into account?

I think this brings upp some of the key points: its not that the regens aren't "good enough". Its an AI PROBLEM.

Top promising youth don't get enough playing time to develop their CA the way they need to.

The top teams "always" play their "best players" .. therefore their promising youth don't get enough games to develop the way that they need to.

I don't have any problem developing quality regens on my team, because I pick up promising kids young, and insure that they get playing time via loans, Cup games, run-outs in mid-season matches that I think I can win, etc .. but the AI really struggles to nurture their regens.

Therefore, if you look around the entire world in the 10th season, you see a lot of aging players from the original DB still in starring roles, e.g., for their national teams and for their clubs, because the regen youth haven't been blooded sufficiently that they've developed to give the "originals" a challenge for their place.

The best place to see this in microcosm is the MLS draft, where you get players with MLS-star-quality PA .. but low enough CA and reputation that they don't even play when sent out to lower-division U.S. feeder clubs. Therefore, they never develop, and wind up released by the clubs that drafted them ...

... while a human-controlled club, which is willing to keep them and play them is able to develop a roster full of quality players.

Fix the AI - insure that promising youth get games - and you fix this perception that "regens are broken".

[soli]

I have a save game with newcastle pre-patch till 2014 and I did not have any problems in finding regens. In fact 7 players of my starting 11 are regens. And its not just me. Other teams also have some quality regens. Just checked up their PAs using genie scout and many of them have the figure above 180.

[Captainoamerica]

Highly disagree with the regens being rubbish. Im a massive youth policy man and I hate the transfer windows I have all the big boys sniffing over ten or more of my players each season. Its a real burden but on the upside I know for a fact I have some real hot youngsters if Barce and Real are offering about 10mill and more when they are just 21 finishing there loan out period and starting to get thought of as first team players.

[Spagbol]

has anyone ever started a game made up entirely of regens? it really doesn't work. players with abysmal stats and 1* in the assman report are nearly always priced £10M+, players with acceptable stats are also give 1-2*, but valued much lower, less than £100K sometimes.

i tried to start one with barcelona, most of the team was terrible. i checked madrid, athletico, espanyol, valencia etc, and it was near enough the same for them. because regens rarely get ppms unless they are real life players with different names, match quality is evidently poorer with regens.

i think this shows how random & below average the regen quality is.

I'm playing a game with the empty database right now as well, it highlights two pretty significant flaws.

Firstly the regen quality. If you spend an hour trecking through the teams at the start you can pick all the players who look like they'd cut it, you scout them out, cull the weak, then sign all those left. The issue here is that when clubs originally want 10%-40% of future transfer fees, you can simply remove it and say "How does £200k sound instead?" and they bite your hand off for the money. You can raid every top premiership youth with little effort.

The second and probably more significant flaw is that a season or so later all those young players have turned pro, the computer then trys to buy your fringe players back off you for a couple of million per player. Because the transfer system's a little 'iffy' you can convince teams to throw in a high % of future transfer fee, their most promising youth players and a seven figure fee in return for a defender who'd probably cut it at championship level.

Only yesterday I managed to convince Newcastle to give me the best English striker in the game and their seventeen year old England CM in return for my second choice right back and 20% of future fees. All because he was on a pro contract and had a season of adult footballer value.

[AB-forever]

While I think that Amaroq is totally right, isn't part of this issue also that (in MLS I know it is) that regens start with too low CA. Therefore it doesn't matter if they have high PA because the CA-PA gap is so huge that they'll never even come near their PA.

[NepentheZ]

Bump. This topic was affected in the forum troubles.

[x42bn6]

This screenshot kind of sums up my main problems with regens:

Sometimes I wish he didn't have full-back attributes or even winger attributes, because lack of strength and jumping really hurts.

[small Mac]

This screenshot kind of sums up my main problems with regens:

Sometimes I wish he didn't have full-back attributes or even winger attributes, because lack of strength and jumping really hurts.

As this screenshot shows, it's not just a matter of the AI not playing their youngsters, it's also the distribution of ability points into important stats. Seeing a CB with low heading and high corner taking is no suprise at all in this version.

[x42bn6]

As this screenshot shows, it's not just a matter of the AI not playing their youngsters, it's also the distribution of ability points into important stats. Seeing a CB with low heading and high corner taking is no suprise at all in this version.

Actually, that's my youngster. I bought him in Serie B as he was a lot better than my experienced centre-backs even as a youngster - although I honestly thought he had 15 for Jumping (it turned out to be the attribute above Jumping; I think his Jumping was actually a 6 when he was 17).

If you play your youngsters regularly, you can end up with a good CA growth curve (i.e. the rate of development of regens isn't that bad per se) - 163/171 at 23, I think, is very good. It's just that without first-team football, expect them to only ever peak at 160-170 at 27.

In fact, his attributes are so poorly weighted, he's actually somehow managed to collect the ball from an opposition corner, dribble all the way to the other end of the pitch, round the keeper and score - the type of counter-attack goal you'd only expect wingers or strikers to score. I guess that's how bad he is at jumping - he's not even in the box for corners!

[Themistofelis]

While I think that Amaroq is totally right, isn't part of this issue also that (in MLS I know it is) that regens start with too low CA. Therefore it doesn't matter if they have high PA because the CA-PA gap is so huge that they'll never even come near their PA.

Truth is that regens start with too high CA , i do had CDs coming from their village with CA 60 and corner taking at 12 , if i had them in my academy from the age of 14 with CA 1 i would be able to shape their abilities with training and tutoring .

Good facilities , coaches and decent management can give them 15-25 points of CA every year so at the age of 17 they will have CA ~80 with the right attributes for their position .

[x42bn6]

Truth is that regens start with too high CA , i do had CDs coming from their village with CA 60 and corner taking at 12 , if i had them in my academy from the age of 14 with CA 1 i would be able to shape their abilities with training and tutoring .

Good facilities , coaches and decent management can give them 15-25 points of CA every year so at the age of 17 they will have CA ~80 with the right attributes for their position .

That development rate is far too slow. The kind of levels you need to aim for: At 16, 80. At 17, 110, ideally a lot higher (120-130 if you play them regularly). At 18, 130, ideally higher again. At 19, they should be at 140-150 depending on how you trained them - and these are the types of youngsters like Giovani dos Santos, Carlos Vela, and so on. Only then can you guarantee they'll at least hit 170-180 or higher.

The rate decreases somewhat as you get older, too. In my game, Alessio Cerci's "only" gained about 6 CA points in his last year, although he's 167/176 at the moment so he's probably going to make it (just turned 24).

[Andy20]

I'm in 2021 on FM 07 and there is some quality re gens around and some average re gens. Not sure if people accuse FM 07 of being bad for re gens but in my game it's brilliant. I have signed some of the top quality re gens because im in europe at the moment but also when I look at teams in the lower leagues they have average re gens just like they would in real life. That is why i'm giving up on FM 08 and going back to 07

[x42bn6]

It's too good in that version. Not only is it too good, but I once had something like at least 1 CA gain per match, meaning I could bring a youngster from CA 90 to 130 in one season, and it didn't have to be in the first team.