Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[sgevolker]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb RDF Tactics:

Yours looking like mine? I control set pieces but the set piece coach does the takers and personnel list - if you want control over them then 'take control'

 

No, I took over everything. But I found the reason. You cannot edit when you've activated Preview with starting X. I was not aware about this 

Thanks for your help

[RDF Tactics]

On 23/02/2024 at 22:16, jcafcwbb said:

I have to disagree with everything the OP has said.

I am managing AFC Wimbledon. I have never used the Gengenpress. Stuck to the preset tactics and let my DOF buy the players. Despite that I won the EFL L2 and I am doing well in L1 (where I am 2nd favourite to go down). I use a mixture of Fluid Counter and Control Possession so sometimes I am defensive. I find shape is just a good way to win matches than the Gengenpress - I purposely have banned the use it of it in my game. 

 

This is the thing, right? Many people have said they don't use Gegenpress and everything tactically and results is okay for them. So then, why are others complaining it's the only way to play?

I can't speak for everyone, but it seems people don't want to spend that time reacting to the game when making a reactive tactic, which is the point.

Regardless of what you think about Gegenpress tactics, if you think a mid-block counter tactic should just work because you set it up then the complaint falls flat and a bit contradictory if it's realism with tactics you want. A mid-block counter tactic SHOULD require you to spend time on it. You can't create something reactive and spend no time actually reacting to what the AI is doing.

And also, I think people always want crazy overachieving results even though "game being too easy" is also the complaint. So, I'm sure everyone here can create a tactic that is NOT gegenpress but still overachieve. Issue here, the overachievement isn't enough. You absolutely can pick a West Ham and finish 7th. That's a good season by West Ham standards. You can pick Luton and stay up all without using a gegenpress tactic. But, is that sort of overachievement enough for people?

Edited February 25 by RDF Tactics

[fmdirektor]

I had a question about the winter update. For the Update Japan etc. will the winter transfer period be expected to end in the leagues as well? Or will he come out earlier? 

[RDF Tactics]

So just for this conversation - I decided to pick Luton. I assessed the squad, and looked at their best players and those players' strengths.

There are the players I (ass man) have identified as the "best players". Ross Barkley's playing style is "technical", someone who will build the foundation for what you want to do in possession. To me, he should be my side playmaker - the main creator as nobody else can create like him in this side.

Lokonga is usually a DMs with Nakamba BWM. Lokonga, again, is a technical player so the DM role can help us build that foundation of what we want to do in possession from deep. Just like that, I figure I will be having at LEAST 3 central players. Most likely 2 DMs as I'm a weak side, the defence line will need help. Next was figuring out what to do with Townsend. He's not the quickest winger in the league neither is he one of the better dribblers (add flair and balance to his dribbling). Considering he was the only decent real winger (Ogbene is just super fast), I'm now thinking of a narrow tactic to get the best out of the team

Spoiler

And this is what I ended up with. A narrow 4-2-3-1, also because I prefer narrow defending on this game when trying to create something more reactive than proactive. Give little spaces between lines by using a high DL and mid-block LOE. We will play somewhat direct and on the counter. I can drop my DL if needed in an attempt to draw out the opposition and use our targets (rest attack) in Barkley and the AF to hit the opposition on the break.

I'm aware they'll be large parts in game where the opposition will have the momentum but that comes with the tactical plan.

I do not plan to play a whole season just for a comment  but 3 results, draw away to Tottenham, home with to Fulham 3-1 and currently beating Crystal Palace away from home 2-0. If we can keep this up, we for sure will stay up = great season for Luton = great overachievement.

Before games, I looked at the oppisition. Fulham for example, their weakness was their LW didn't drop to defend. We scored 2. Then removed it as the RB was getting advanced and leaving areas for Fulham to exploit themselves. Marco Silva also uses an intense press, trying to exploit space by passing it into space and when in wider areas, not to hold the ball too long. Get the ball in the box.

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Against Palace, I dropped back a little and increased our passing directness. Trying to play more direct after soaking pressure (Did similar away to Tottenham). DL dropped but keeping step up to at least keep the space between CBs and DMs somewhat limited.
 

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Yes. I don't like when people say there's only one way to play  It simply isn't true. Defending deep may not be perfect, but neither is gegenpress. If you watch the high pressing in the game, you will notice/come across issues too. But when you are so aggressively proactive, it's unlikely it'll constantly get exposed.

But now, I'll probably get told the game is too easy because winning with Luton 

I'll be the first to say if FM needs improvement in certain areas. Always. But I feel people's complaints aren't helpful or constructive. Regardless of hundreds sharing their experiences not using a gegenpress, people will read it and still turn around and say actually, high pressing is still the only way (unless you spend time creating a defensive tactic in which, it should. Presets are there but for something tailor-made for your squad, it should require time and effort).

[RDF Tactics]

Did we get battered or were we just really well set up? Luck involved for sure.

But, Palace 16 shots. Only 2 half chances. Half of the 16 shots were long shots (not a good chance). Out of their 16 shots, 5 were blocked. So, statistically, though it seemed they were dominant, we didn't actually allow any great scoring chances. And guess how we scored? Set piece (using play for set-pieces) and a long ball to the striker, knock down for Chong and goal. Nothing fancy. Just effective.

Now I don't think after 3 games we have a tactic for the rest of 35 games. Far from. I still think against Palace, we don't need to be up against so much momentum so there are still tweaks to be made. But, as people are seeing with the worst team, you don't have to play gegenpress.

Spoiler

What to tweak? Well, against Palace, they had more high-intensity sprints. Now, for a team who is doing more of the defending, I believe we actually should be outworking them. Palace aren't a high-intensity team off the ball or with the ball so we can/should be outworking them. Maybe. So, can increase pressing if I want but that can go against what people are asking for. I can activate the counter-press, I may not disrupt our shape too much.

Not something to tweak, but the final third passes I'm fairly happy with. Out of their 483 passes, 72 went into the final 3rd. Again, can be less if we were more intense off the ball but to have 72 final passes and so little real chance created shows how well we did defend the majority of the time. Or at least, didn't allow the receiver to create much after receiving the final 3rd pass.

 

Edited February 25 by RDF Tactics

[RDF Tactics]

Last one before I go church  quite enjoying doing these little examples.

Next game is Brighton at home. They beat Brentford at home 4-2 but they lost 3-0 in their last away game. That intrigued me so looked at their average position without the ball and wow. Wingers high. CMs also high. We can look to play more direct from back to front to quickly exploit that. Use using 3 AMs as well, this seems like a game for us from the get go.

They did play 12 key passes, though. Remove the corners, all coming from a narrow area. Can our DMs do the work or can I do something tactically? I may allow crosses (narrow defensive width) to see if that'll help in the opening minutes. They also racked up a high number of dribbles. I'm not sure there's much I can do about that but number 22 is looking dangerous so maybe look to cut the supply to number 22.

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Edited February 25 by RDF Tactics

[RDF Tactics]

1-0 at HT.

Been the better side. Brighton are intense so I can accept their high intense numbers are more. And really, we're not doing that bad with ball share so it's not as if we are not seeing the ball and just defending. They played 1 key pass that half.

7 dribbles but none in dangerous areas or troubling us. Fati also having a poor game so atm, have negated the effectiveness of their LW.

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[RDF Tactics]

And that there was my last game.

1-0 vs Brighton. Another clean sheet. 10 points after 4 games. If you're just curiously reading this thread then hopefully you found these posts useful. But the point in this was simply to show there is not only one way to play this game. Simply, not true.

A reactive system may take a little more time, but it should. It should require looking at ways to get the best out of your team and exploiting opposition's weakness. Sometimes it's not as obvious. Sometimes the answer can be right in front of your face.

[WelshMourinho]

51 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

This is the thing, right? Many people have said they don't use Gegenpress and everything tactically and results is okay for them. So then, why are others complaining it's the only way to play?

I can't speak for everyone, but it seems people don't want to spend that time reacting to the game when making a reactive tactic, which is the point.

Regardless of what you think about Gegenpress tactics, if you think a mid-block counter tactic should just work because you set it up then the complaint falls flat and a bit contradictory if it's realism with tactics you want. A mid-block counter tactic SHOULD require you to spend time on it. You can't create something reactive and spend no time actually reacting to what the AI is doing.

And also, I think people always want crazy overachieving results even though "game being too easy" is also the complaint. So, I'm sure everyone here can create a tactic that is NOT gegenpress but still overachieve. Issue here, the overachievement isn't enough. You absolutely can pick a West Ham and finish 7th. That's a good season by West Ham standards. You can pick Luton and stay up all without using a gegenpress tactic. But, is that sort of overachievement enough for people?

I don't think gegenpress is the only way to play, but I do think the options a player has in terms of 'reactive' football are far more limited than the more front footed gegenpress type tactic. There's far more room for experimentation and creativity with player roles and how they move, and especially with this years game we're seeing a lot more attacking fluidity with players happy to move up into different lines and positions. The problem that irritates me is that the defensive movements, to me at least, appear to be lacking in that regard.

In terms of defensive shape and options, you have the formation you pick which sets your defensive shape, and then you have compression and where you want that compression to take place. To put it as simply as I can, if I want to to press high I'm going to go either 1 striker backed up with 2 or 3 players in the AM slots, or 2 strikers backed up by maybe 1 or even 2 options depending on how aggressive I want to be. If I'm aiming to be deeper and go for more of a mid block then obviously I'm looking at making the midfielders deeper, e.g the ml and mr positions. 

My focus when I think defensively is nearly always on the players individual attributes because ultimately that's a large part of what I can control. When I'm thinking on the ball I'm looking for combinations and where people can move, and I think that's why large amounts who play this game find the likes of gegenpressing so easy compared to the more pragmatic side, shall we say. 

You can see how far the game is lacking defensively when you either utilise or come up against a role that has 'moves into the channels.' The defensive movements just completely struggle with how players peel off and move into that space, to the point where your defensive players just choose to ignore the player. I had Jonathan David at Porto, and I used him as a shadow striker. He would slot himself into the left half channel, and bearing in mind I was Porto and faced a lot of defensive systems, at no point would the oppositions DM's (either of them) position themselves in a way that they could eventually deal with David. The RB also wouldn't deal with him, as he'd be tight with Galeno on the wing. This left a massive space between the oppositions RB and RCB and either my SV would find a pass to david running in, or we'd work it into his feet where he had ample time and space to get it onto his right foot and shot at goal.

I'm at Liverpool right now, and I struggle every time I go away to Wolves. Their left hand side triangle has a W role in the AML spot and their MCL is a Mezzala. The RB sticks to the winger, the 2 CBs squeeze onto the lone striker, and unfortunately my DM tends to forget the MEZ exists. I will watch the MEZ wander into the channel and just stand there as my RB is literally out of shot with the winger, the RCB is focused on the striker and the DM never clocks on. 

We have a bunch of fantastic roles that offer so much, but defensively it's clear to me the game can't really keep up with it.

[RDF Tactics]

1 hour ago, WelshMourinho said:

I don't think gegenpress is the only way to play, but I do think the options a player has in terms of 'reactive' football are far more limited than the more front footed gegenpress type tactic. There's far more room for experimentation and creativity with player roles and how they move, and especially with this years game we're seeing a lot more attacking fluidity with players happy to move up into different lines and positions. The problem that irritates me is that the defensive movements, to me at least, appear to be lacking in that regard.

In terms of defensive shape and options, you have the formation you pick which sets your defensive shape, and then you have compression and where you want that compression to take place. To put it as simply as I can, if I want to to press high I'm going to go either 1 striker backed up with 2 or 3 players in the AM slots, or 2 strikers backed up by maybe 1 or even 2 options depending on how aggressive I want to be. If I'm aiming to be deeper and go for more of a mid block then obviously I'm looking at making the midfielders deeper, e.g the ml and mr positions. 

My focus when I think defensively is nearly always on the players individual attributes because ultimately that's a large part of what I can control. When I'm thinking on the ball I'm looking for combinations and where people can move, and I think that's why large amounts who play this game find the likes of gegenpressing so easy compared to the more pragmatic side, shall we say. 

You can see how far the game is lacking defensively when you either utilise or come up against a role that has 'moves into the channels.' The defensive movements just completely struggle with how players peel off and move into that space, to the point where your defensive players just choose to ignore the player. I had Jonathan David at Porto, and I used him as a shadow striker. He would slot himself into the left half channel, and bearing in mind I was Porto and faced a lot of defensive systems, at no point would the oppositions DM's (either of them) position themselves in a way that they could eventually deal with David. The RB also wouldn't deal with him, as he'd be tight with Galeno on the wing. This left a massive space between the oppositions RB and RCB and either my SV would find a pass to david running in, or we'd work it into his feet where he had ample time and space to get it onto his right foot and shot at goal.

I'm at Liverpool right now, and I struggle every time I go away to Wolves. Their left hand side triangle has a W role in the AML spot and their MCL is a Mezzala. The RB sticks to the winger, the 2 CBs squeeze onto the lone striker, and unfortunately my DM tends to forget the MEZ exists. I will watch the MEZ wander into the channel and just stand there as my RB is literally out of shot with the winger, the RCB is focused on the striker and the DM never clocks on. 

We have a bunch of fantastic roles that offer so much, but defensively it's clear to me the game can't really keep up with it.

There are some issues with it. I’ve reported some things myself regarding players positioning.

The thing here is that it’s easy for people to spot defensive issues such as wingers not tracking back or just outright stop running back when defending. Spaces in between full back and CBs always so wide - attackers runs into that space and nobody decides to track back. There are some things that can do with improvement.

but high pressing has structure issues in FM that either people ignore because they get the result anyway, or aren’t actually sure what they’re looking at.

so it’s okay to say Gegenpress is OP but nobody shows any real example of the press being OP in the ME. Whenever I play against 3 atb, I always see immediate issues but paved over because of the results. Dead balls, major structure issues but again, because AI don’t take advantage of that, easy to ignore.

now I did make a post about defensive shape and why when trying to play 442, I don’t get a narrow and compact 442. Admittedly, it took days to figure out wide players just isn’t great for this so I’ll tend to go with a narrow shape if wanting to play more compact.

But many things you’ve mentioned is also present in high pressing tactics. Especially the CMs positioning when in a 433. They tend to be deep leaving your 3 attackers run like mad men. You can not get a 442 press consistently enough and well enough as you should when high pressing in a 433 or 4231. 
 

imo, for something to be OP, it should be showing what is intended which is why I always argue high pressing in itself isn’t OP. It’s also what people are doing in possession and with player roles. High pressing alone doesn’t automatically make you’re tactic a 3/10 to a 9/10.

example being, majority will use high pressing. But then using counter in transition, high tempo, pass into space, run at defence with advanced forwards, pair of aggressive full backs etc etc. It is often not just the high pressing alone that is making a tactic high pressing.

how many times can people count of them scoring goals by pressing opposition back line and scoring from high recoveries? It is likely a lot less than long shot goals and set piece goals. But an OP high pressing tactic would be not allowing the AI to even play out and build.

i think it’s about a combination of things rather than high pressing alone. Great teams, especially away from home, can pick a part users who are just using high pressing but leaving gaps elsewhere.

Edited February 25 by RDF Tactics

[whatsupdoc]

It's possible to win in various ways against the AI, especially once their squad building kicks in.

It's also true that high pressing, high tempo systems are massively OP.

The best way to test your theories about what it's possible to win with is to play a large network save. You will very quickly find out how much stronger the meta is than something that may be logical for your side but isn't the meta.

Edited February 25 by whatsupdoc

[Ein]

Against the AI, you can even overachieve with a clean slate (literally zero team/player instructions) if you pick the right roles.

[g1nh0]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

It's possible to win in various ways against the AI, especially once their squad building kicks in.

It's also true that high pressing, high tempo systems are massively OP.

The best way to test your theories about what it's possible to win with is to play a large network save. You will very quickly find out how much stronger the meta is than something that may be logical for your side but isn't the meta.

Exactly - it gets very boring when 80% of the players are all using the same broken tactic

[RDF Tactics]

42 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

It's possible to win in various ways against the AI, especially once their squad building kicks in.

It's also true that high pressing, high tempo systems are massively OP.

The best way to test your theories about what it's possible to win with is to play a large network save. You will very quickly find out how much stronger the meta is than something that may be logical for your side but isn't the meta.

In a draft (not a network save), I got to a final using practically 8 defenders and 2 attackers (5-3-1-1). Up against meta systems so you can argue actually, it's also easier to exploit those meta systems as a user. Simply by having many defensive players where you'll always have the extra players.

IMO, saying high pressing is OP with little explanation is a bit lazy (not you, just in general) because it ignores so many things. Is it high pressing that's OP? Is it high-tempo systems?... If high tempo then like said, you are achieving something because of a combination of things rather than just one thing. To get these results people are mentioning, that you need to use certain things because again, using a high press with a high tempo and the wrong roles can give you less desired results.

No shot at people, some don't really know how to read the data to confirm that their high pressing is effective in winning the ball high and recovering the ball high. I've yet to see people post examples of them constantly with high recoveries. If they're team is overperforming there, then you have some weight in the "high pressing is OP" statement.

It's easy to come here and say high pressing is OP - for all we know, that person can be using a Knap tactic lol people just saying things, IMO, won't get it's desired effect.

When you look at these "OP" tactics available online, I guarantee they all look very similar in terms of role combinations + team instruction combinations. For them, it won't simply be using high-tempo instructions. It's the AF - the double IF pairing, CMs on attack etc etc. There are certain combinations they are aware of that the AI struggles to defend. 

But we're at the stage of knowing certain things work better. It has been the case for the last 3 or so years. I don't think it has gotten any more OP than FM23 where I took Serie C sides to winning Serie A in little time. The same goes for FM22 - a few unbeaten seasons in that edition using gegenpress. FM21 certainly had its fair share of downloadable OP tactics.

People shouldn't be creating non-sensical systems if they don't want that. But, people will do that and then come here to somewhat complain which then pushes a narrative.

And I'm not attempting to shut people down and say they're wrong (other than high pressing is the only way to play). I'm advocating for people to back their complaints up because that can help. It's easy to pick people's arguments if they're just going to say "high pressing is OP" or "It's the only way to play".

[g1nh0]

3 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

In a draft (not a network save), I got to a final using practically 8 defenders and 2 attackers (5-3-1-1). Up against meta systems so you can argue actually, it's also easier to exploit those meta systems as a user. Simply by having many defensive players where you'll always have the extra players.

IMO, saying high pressing is OP with little explanation is a bit lazy (not you, just in general) because it ignores so many things. Is it high pressing that's OP? Is it high-tempo systems?... If high tempo then like said, you are achieving something because of a combination of things rather than just one thing. To get these results people are mentioning, that you need to use certain things because again, using a high press with a high tempo and the wrong roles can give you less desired results.

No shot at people, some don't really know how to read the data to confirm that their high pressing is effective in winning the ball high and recovering the ball high. I've yet to see people post examples of them constantly with high recoveries. If they're team is overperforming there, then you have some weight in the "high pressing is OP" statement.

It's easy to come here and say high pressing is OP - for all we know, that person can be using a Knap tactic lol people just saying things, IMO, won't get it's desired effect.

When you look at these "OP" tactics available online, I guarantee they all look very similar in terms of role combinations + team instruction combinations. For them, it won't simply be using high-tempo instructions. It's the AF - the double IF pairing, CMs on attack etc etc. There are certain combinations they are aware of that the AI struggles to defend. 

But we're at the stage of knowing certain things work better. It has been the case for the last 3 or so years. I don't think it has gotten any more OP than FM23 where I took Serie C sides to winning Serie A in little time. The same goes for FM22 - a few unbeaten seasons in that edition using gegenpress. FM21 certainly had its fair share of downloadable OP tactics.

People shouldn't be creating non-sensical systems if they don't want that. But, people will do that and then come here to somewhat complain which then pushes a narrative.

And I'm not attempting to shut people down and say they're wrong (other than high pressing is the only way to play). I'm advocating for people to back their complaints up because that can help. It's easy to pick people's arguments if they're just going to say "high pressing is OP" or "It's the only way to play".

So you're saying it's logical that in a 4231 system you should have zero holding DMs, with both wing backs charging up with attack duty on both flanks with no intention to defend, and no sole / specialised creative AM role in the side, to miraculously be a goal scoring powerhouse tactic whilst also having an elite defense?

That tactic design should be meat and drink to beat - but in this engine, you're a tactical genius.

[RDF Tactics]

Just now, g1nh0 said:

Exactly - it gets very boring when 80% of the players are all using the same broken tactic

Why is it boring for your game to see someone else in their own game using a broken tactic? lol Why does what others do influence you and your thinking so much?

Same way, don't you think it gets boring when a large % of people use the forum to claim broken tactic is the only way to play when it's clearly not? lol

Now image here is what I sent to SI regarding high pressing. Does the high press here to you look OP or even remotely effective? My whole team are literally in their own half. The high press itself wasn't what was OP with this system. And this goes to my point of what I said before in that there are also clear issues with how high pressing defends. But, a combination of things I'm using still allows for good results.

[g1nh0]

2 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Why is it boring for your game to see someone else in their own game using a broken tactic? lol Why does what others do influence you and your thinking so much?

Same way, don't you think it gets boring when a large % of people use the forum to claim broken tactic is the only way to play when it's clearly not? lol

Now image here is what I sent to SI regarding high pressing. Does the high press here to you look OP or even remotely effective? My whole team are literally in their own half. The high press itself wasn't what was OP with this system. And this goes to my point of what I said before in that there are also clear issues with how high pressing defends. But, a combination of things I'm using still allows for good results.

When there is zero logic to why something actually works but does, then yes, I think it's a problem with the engine. But if you deem that as being a tactical genius, which it seems you do, then fair enough.

[RDF Tactics]

5 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

So you're saying it's logical that in a 4231 system you should have zero holding DMs, with both wing backs charging up with attack duty on both flanks with no intention to defend, and no sole / specialised creative AM role in the side, to miraculously be a goal scoring powerhouse tactic whilst also having an elite defense?

That tactic design should be meat and drink to beat - but in this engine, you're a tactical genius.

Well you are clearly not reading. I'm saying first of all, why are you creating a non-sensical system to then come back and complain about a non-sensical system? That itself is nonsensical.

Second of all, ever since Championship Manager, there were ALWAYS systems that were OP. Always. It's a game. Being a tactical genius would include having the ability to find specific ways to counter your opposition. Plugging in a tactic is hardly that.

Let me ask you something now. None of us here are actual coaches so what gives us the right to win a game in the first place? Because it's a game. You have ALL the power in the world to design a tactic that you would yourself deem logical. YOU have that power. FM doesn't force you to use an "OP" system. Only you choose.

So why is that what others do in their game effects you so much? Why not just play FM without doing what everyone else is doing?

[g1nh0]

1 minute ago, RDF Tactics said:

Well you are clearly not reading. I'm saying first of all, why are you creating a non-sensical system to then come back and complain about a non-sensical system? That itself is nonsensical.

Second of all, ever since Championship Manager, there were ALWAYS systems that were OP. Always. It's a game. Being a tactical genius would include having the ability to find specific ways to counter your opposition. Plugging in a tactic is hardly that.

Let me ask you something now. None of us here are actual coaches so what gives us the right to win a game in the first place? Because it's a game. You have ALL the power in the world to design a tactic that you would yourself deem logical. YOU have that power. FM doesn't force you to use an "OP" system. Only you choose.

So why is that what others do in their game effects you so much? Why not just play FM without doing what everyone else is doing?

Neither are you.

[RDF Tactics]

1 minute ago, g1nh0 said:

When there is zero logic to why something actually works but does, then yes, I think it's a problem with the engine. But if you deem that as being a tactical genius, which it seems you do, then fair enough.

Well it's zero logic for any of us to be winning games, if we want to go down that route. Which, would be a ridiculous way to look at things.

Have I once ever mentioned using a high press makes you a tactical genius? so why do you keep mentioning that to me?

There are issues with the engine. I'm pointing out the fact high pressing also has issues and that its not high pressing alone that makes something OP. Now, you've gone from high pressing to now mentioning roles etc. So like I said, it's a combination of things right?

Not just simply "high pressing is the only way to play". In your arguments, you are showing it's a combination of things.

[RDF Tactics]

3 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Neither are you.

what?

Is there where just start saying nonsense to avoid your argument lol I'm not here to attack anybody but people's comments are very lazy.

In all of this, I still haven't seen someone provide an example of high pressing being effective in constantly getting high recoveries etc. I've actually show an issue with high pressing where my players are in their own half. I've mentioned the CMs in a 4-3-3 not constantly pressing high enough making the high press then easy to play through.

Providing examples should be just as easy as commenting "high press is OP"

[g1nh0]

2 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Well it's zero logic for any of us to be winning games, if we want to go down that route. Which, would be a ridiculous way to look at things.

Have I once ever mentioned using a high press makes you a tactical genius? so why do you keep mentioning that to me?

There are issues with the engine. I'm pointing out the fact high pressing also has issues and that its not high pressing alone that makes something OP. Now, you've gone from high pressing to now mentioning roles etc. So like I said, it's a combination of things right?

Not just simply "high pressing is the only way to play". In your arguments, you are showing it's a combination of things.

So now we can go back to the original point about broken tactics and playing online - i deem a broken tactic being one which is one not just using the engine's design being overpowered (which in itself, is fine, well it's not but you know what I mean), which actually isn't what i'm too fussed about, but when you add roles in conjunction that are completely illogical, and the exploited in an online save by nearly every user then surely you can see the the point of view why someone will find it it boring and in need for a fix?

As far as I'm aware, SI are intending to create a realistic football management simulation, which as in the above example,  it's failing to reach.

So again, if you think using something illogical is absolutely fine, then that's fine - your opinion on the matter. But do not slate mine.

[RDF Tactics]

12 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

So now we can go back to the original point about broken tactics and playing online - i deem a broken tactic being one which is one not just using the engine's design being overpowered (which in itself, is fine, well it's not but you know what I mean), which actually isn't what i'm too fussed about, but when you add roles in conjunction that are completely illogical, and the exploited in an online save by nearly every user then surely you can see the the point of view why someone will find it it boring and in need for a fix?

As far as I'm aware, SI are intending to create a realistic football management simulation, which as in the above example,  it's failing to reach.

So again, if you think using something illogical is absolutely fine, then that's fine - your opinion on the matter. But do not slate mine.

It can be fixed. Or am I being thick here? Do we not have the option to not use these combinations? Especially if they're not logical. So if something isn't logical, why the hell are you using it? lool how long have you been playing FM becuase it's almost being ignored the fact Football Manager has always had it's OP tactics each year. This also makes the game fun for a larger number of customers.

SI are also intending to create a fictional world for you. FM is always a game. Always has been a game. It seems people like you are failing to gasp. Just like IRL football, a manager won't use a system that is not logical so why are you then using a system that is not logical? If SI got real football management spot on, it will drive everyone away from the game. It leaves a LOT less space for you to create your own stories.

I slated your opinion? please show me this lol. And when did I say using something illogical is fine for you (for you being key). You can also show me that. But truth is, I never did or said any of those things.

FM has always been a game where you can play it in the way you like. There is no intention to lose that element. How boring would it be if we all had to do the same things and same things happening in our save.

RDF save = City wins EPL over 100 points

G1 save = City wins EPL over 100 points

John save = City wins EPL over 100 points

Shirley save = City wins EPL over 100 points

All in an attempt to simulate real life that's it.

Edited February 25 by RDF Tactics

[g1nh0]

3 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

It can be fixed. Or am I being thick here? Do we not have the option to not use these combinations? Especially if they're not logical. So if something isn't logical, why the hell are you using it? lool how long have you been playing FM becuase it's almost being ignored the fact Football Manager has always had it's OP tactics each year. This also makes the game fun for a larger number of customers.

SI are also intending to create a fictional world for you. FM is always a game. Always has been a game. It seems people like you are failing to gasp. Just like IRL football, a manager won't use a system that is not logical so why are you then using a system that is not logical? If SI got real football management spot on, it will drive everyone away from the game. It leaves a LOT less space for you to create your own stories.

I slated your opinion? please show me this lol. And when did I say using something illogical is fine for you (for you being key). You can also show me that. But truth is, I never did or said any of those things.

FM has always been a game where you can play it in the way you like. There is no intention to lose that element. How boring would it be if we all had to do the same things and same things happening in our save.

RDF save = City wins EPL over 100 points

G1 save = City wins EPL over 100 points

John save = City wins EPL over 100 points

Shirley save = City wins EPL over 100 points

All in an attempt to simulate real life that's it.

It seems like you've failed to comprehend any of the points I've made - and for anyone who reads the above trail carefully, they undoubtedly will be able to decipher it all.

[RDF Tactics]

3 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

It seems like you've failed to comprehend any of the points I've made - and for anyone who reads the above trail carefully, they undoubtedly will be able to decipher it all.

Sure. I've addressed everything you've mentioned. Comprehending doesn't mean I have to agree.

You are asking for certain systems to be toned down and not effective as they are non-logical systems. In theory, using so many aggressive instructions and roles should expose you and not make you better. That is very easy to comprehend.

But I very much doubt you're grasping what's being said back to you in return.

[g1nh0]

As above, I've already said I respect your own view on the matter. But so be it if you cannot reciprocate mine.

[RDF Tactics]

17 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

As above, I've already said I respect your own view on the matter. But so be it if you cannot reciprocate mine.

The only opinion I’ll go to lengths to disprove is that there’s only way one to tactically play FM.

the forum is a place for discussion respectfully. If someone has an opinion, I have the right to respectfully challenge it.

As said in this place before, I am a creator who openly tells people “but if you want better result with this tactic then use certain combinations”. I’m fully aware of it. And aware there’s different types of players. Some will put in the hours and there’s some that just wants to open FM to win - that’s their fun.

Personally, fixing some of the defensive issues people have posted reduces the effectiveness of the super intense systems but also improves the effectiveness of defensive minded systems. AI squad building, too. So we are fighting the same cause, almost

Edited February 25 by RDF Tactics

[Matej]

4 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

And that there was my last game.

1-0 vs Brighton. Another clean sheet. 10 points after 4 games. If you're just curiously reading this thread then hopefully you found these posts useful. But the point in this was simply to show there is not only one way to play this game. Simply, not true.

A reactive system may take a little more time, but it should. It should require looking at ways to get the best out of your team and exploiting opposition's weakness. Sometimes it's not as obvious. Sometimes the answer can be right in front of your face.

Point is that if you continue, at the end of the season youll finish in top 5-6 clubs, with Luton. Try it. But thats not because you are smart. I can do that 2, with fast playin, not caring much how oppostion is playin. And 70% of players can do that, if they have just little exp..

Game is easy and no challenge at all. Even if you are Luton. Or Barnet. Or God forbid Man Utd. 

 

 

Edited February 25 by Matej

[g1nh0]

14 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

The only opinion I’ll go to lengths to disprove is that there’s only way one to tactically play FM.

the forum is a place for discussion respectfully. If someone has an opinion, I have the right to respectfully challenge it.

As said in this place before, I am a creator who openly tells people “but if you want better result with this tactic then use certain combinations”. I’m fully aware of it. And aware there’s different types of players. Some will put in the hours and there’s some that just wants to open FM to win - that’s their fun.

Personally, fixing some of the defensive issues people have posted reduces the effectiveness of the super intense systems but also improves the effectiveness of defensive minded systems. AI squad building, too. So we are fighting the same cause, almost

Contrary to the impression you may have, I do actually think this year's version has the potential to be the best FM released - I just think there really needs to be a greater balance to the game that reflects the realistic game SI are aiming to create.

This being, illogical tactics that shouldn't work, won't work, and given online play is very popular, gegenpress being less effective than it currently is so that more pragmatic systems (that can work fine vs the AI), can also be more viable for use online.

Then naturally, as from personal experience, fellow players will actually be willing to use several other systems. and to good effect. They've all even admitted they only use the broken/illogical 4231, simply because they don't want to be screwed over / losing by not using it - but none of them actually enjoy feeling the need to have to use it. (And I'm not the one using it btw)

[forameuss]

6 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

This is the thing, right? Many people have said they don't use Gegenpress and everything tactically and results is okay for them. So then, why are others complaining it's the only way to play?

Because they see it's disproportionately successful, and they lack the patience or interest to find something that's similarly successful on their own.  Which is fine, I guess, if it stopped there and they weren't so desperate to double dip and proclaim how awful the whole situation that they're actively choosing to use is.

[RDF Tactics]

26 minutes ago, Matej said:

Point is that if you continue, at the end of the season youll finish in top 5-6 clubs, with Luton. Try it. But thats not because you are smart. I can do that 2, with fast playin, not caring much how oppostion is playin. And 70% of players can do that, if they have just little exp..

Game is easy and no challenge at all. Even if you are Luton. Or Barnet. Or God forbid Man Utd. 

 

 

But I'm not playing fast and it's very likely when up against other teams, I will start to drop points. But it was to show you don't have to play fast to overachieve, with Luton I am analysing the opposition to find weaknesses. And finishing anywhere that's not relegation with Luton is okay. So you don't have to only play fast tempo.

I don't disagree I find the game not challenging at times, but this is also down to the defensive 'issues'. My opinion here isn't that everything is fine and the ME is brilliantly balanced. But what I do think is that things are a little more complex than just "gegenpress is OP". Or maybe, I'm just thinking overly technical about it. I believe various things are contributing to the effectiveness of these instructions and role combinations. And then the thing that actually measures the intensity of the press, every team are so close, everyone (according to the data) is playing aggressively as you can see in the screenshot. 9 teams on average allow 4 passes before making a defensive action. The rest allow 5 if you round it up/down. There's really no difference there, on average, in how intense teams are in the game off the ball. But big differences in defence lines. All according to the data, of course. 

Spoiler

 

[RDF Tactics]

51 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Contrary to the impression you may have, I do actually think this year's version has the potential to be the best FM released - I just think there really needs to be a greater balance to the game that reflects the realistic game SI are aiming to create.

This being, illogical tactics that shouldn't work, won't work, and given online play is very popular, gegenpress being less effective than it currently is so that more pragmatic systems (that can work fine vs the AI), can also be more viable for use online.

Then naturally, as from personal experience, fellow players will actually be willing to use several other systems. and to good effect. They've all even admitted they only use the broken/illogical 4231, simply because they don't want to be screwed over / losing by not using it - but none of them actually enjoy feeling the need to have to use it. (And I'm not the one using it btw)

Improving defensive situations automatically makes pragmatic systems more effective.

People say gegenpress is OP. If you tone down the effectiveness of gegenpress (I'm talking like it's just a button to press lol) then you'll end up with less effective gegenpress tactics but still not impressive pragmatic systems. If you can improve how defenders behave then that, imo, will make people venture out more.

I rarely use a 3 atb because I don't like how it defends in wide areas and still how attackers freely sprint between my central defenders. That has nothing to do with anyone using Gegenpress, that's just because, I feel, the behaviour of defenders can do with improvement. I keep banging on about it, but I made a thread here about my defensive shape in a 4-4-1-1 and how far from narrow it was. Another thing that can do with an improvement and another that doesn't have anything to do with anyone using Gegenpress. But addressing and improving these things I feel will make pragmatic systems better but also deal with certain aggressive tactics better. Setting up pressing traps. Being able to set up a defensive shape (I'm in a 4-3-3 but my CM joins ST to make a 4-4-2 when opposition is building). A bit more complicated but another thing that could be introduced into the game.

[El Payaso]

Decided to watch a game of football for the first time in about 5 months as Betis and Athletic are the two teams I like the most in Spain. 

What FM still lacks is the impression of lack of time and space and battling for possession that are practically all the time present in real life.

This also is what separates FM from real football as this affects to so many things in the game in general (turnovers, pass competition, fouls, cards etc). 

This is also a thing that I used to talk about a lot when I was one of the beta testers. It's especially evident when you look at short delivery from keepers where you basically get a free path to the midfield as defending sides are not able to mark away passing options or block passing lanes like they do in real life. 

[g1nh0]

12 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Improving defensive situations automatically makes pragmatic systems more effective.

People say gegenpress is OP. If you tone down the effectiveness of gegenpress (I'm talking like it's just a button to press lol) then you'll end up with less effective gegenpress tactics but still not impressive pragmatic systems. If you can improve how defenders behave then that, imo, will make people venture out more.

I rarely use a 3 atb because I don't like how it defends in wide areas and still how attackers freely sprint between my central defenders. That has nothing to do with anyone using Gegenpress, that's just because, I feel, the behaviour of defenders can do with improvement. I keep banging on about it, but I made a thread here about my defensive shape in a 4-4-1-1 and how far from narrow it was. Another thing that can do with an improvement and another that doesn't have anything to do with anyone using Gegenpress. But addressing and improving these things I feel will make pragmatic systems better but also deal with certain aggressive tactics better. Setting up pressing traps. Being able to set up a defensive shape (I'm in a 4-3-3 but my CM joins ST to make a 4-4-2 when opposition is building). A bit more complicated but another thing that could be introduced into the game.

Agree, whatever needs to be done to balance it - it's a simplified comment to get the point across to make it abundantly clear there is an issue. I also would like to see longer term effects of extreme gegen usage, being the knock-on effect this has with players being subject to such an intense system for a prolonged period of time.

But most definitely, it would be really good to see defensive systems work nicely. Although realistically / in all honesty I don't see much hope for this anytime soon because I'm guessing it will probably need a lot of elements within the engine to be reviewed / overhauled to accommodate for the extra complexity required to implement such a thing. (instant thing coming to mind is all player attributes needing to be very sensitive, and form how well a system can function together as one unit.)

Edited February 25 by g1nh0

[moriartysb28]

If a player's PA is in the 150-180 range, does that randomly grant the player 150-180 potential at the start of each career? or min. 150, max. That it will be 180?

[Ein]

37 minutes ago, moriartysb28 said:

If a player's PA is in the 150-180 range, does that randomly grant the player 150-180 potential at the start of each career? or min. 150, max. That it will be 180?

It grants him a fixed potential between 150 and 180 (fixed for each save).

[moriartysb28]

5 dakika önce, Ein said:

It grants him a fixed potential between 150 and 180 (fixed for each save).

Can it change in every career I open? So one could have 151 and the other could have 179, right?

[zeza]

Do we know what will be fixed in the next update? 

Scouting is still broken and we don't have an answer in the bug thread since the moderator told us that if a player is not interested in a move he won't show up in a Focus even when us players know that it happens and we can filter them by interest.

If the moderator team doesn't know how the system works or know what's broken, I can't imagine the dev team does..

[Ein]

35 minutes ago, moriartysb28 said:

Can it change in every career I open? So one could have 151 and the other could have 179, right?

Yes, that's right.

[RDF Tactics]

2 hours ago, Litmanen 10 said:

Decided to watch a game of football for the first time in about 5 months as Betis and Athletic are the two teams I like the most in Spain. 

What FM still lacks is the impression of lack of time and space and battling for possession that are practically all the time present in real life.

This also is what separates FM from real football as this affects to so many things in the game in general (turnovers, pass competition, fouls, cards etc). 

This is also a thing that I used to talk about a lot when I was one of the beta testers. It's especially evident when you look at short delivery from keepers where you basically get a free path to the midfield as defending sides are not able to mark away passing options or block passing lanes like they do in real life. 

2 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

Setting up pressing traps. Being able to set up a defensive shape (I'm in a 4-3-3 but my CM joins ST to make a 4-4-2 when opposition is building). A bit more complicated but another thing that could be introduced into the game.

That's also what I was saying here. You can't design pressing traps etc like how you'd want or something that looks similar to IRL. This is certainly something that could be introduced to the game, especially with new positional play. This has to be possible.

But also what I meant when I said Gegenpressing has it's issues but because it gives people the results, it can be ignored/forgiven. But pressing high itself has issues in FM. Not exactly being able to implement a man-to-man marking system which is so so common IRL now. SI removing tight marking from team instructions now seems such an odd thing to do lol (I didn't really understand it at the time). OIs don't really give you what you need.

You should be able to set up pressing traps in FM. Not how it currently is. Force-wide should make your attackers defend narrowly and leave the pass to FBs to receive. When the opposition full-back receives the ball, THATS the trap to go and press. Currently in FM, your wide attacker just stays wide. This in turn allows those short deliveries from keepers and the free path in midfield. Also against 3 at the back, they can get such high possession % because the high pressing is off. Wide players mark the opposition wing-backs. This leaves you with 1 striker pressing 3 central defenders. Once one of your wingers moves from the flank to help the striker press, the CB has so much time and space to just lob it to the wing-back. This also contributes to the issue we ALL get. tactical analysis weakness "opposition final third entries central"

But tackles have to be won. Possession has to be lost. There's the "chaos factor" in midfield. Wingers constantly losing the ball from weird touches and dribbling.

When it comes to the ME, this would personally be my priority. How to make the matches more engaging by having better defensive play (from the front and back) but also how to reduce the set piece strength which may fall under defensive play anyway. Especially throw-ins.

[NineCloudNine]

Whenever I see slightly mad results I wonder what would be made of it on these forums if it were to happen to someone in FM.

Team goes into a Cup final missing 4-5 guaranteed starters, loses a midfielder to injury after half an hour so the RB has to play on the wing, opposition miss several hilarious sitters, reserve keeper makes a couple of blinding saves, team plays extra time with 5 players aged 20 or below and an average age of 22, then wins in the 119th minute with a header from a corner.

It was in the script I tell you!

Edited February 25 by NineCloudNine
119 not 129!

[Matej]

4 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

But I'm not playing fast and it's very likely when up against other teams, I will start to drop points. But it was to show you don't have to play fast to overachieve, with Luton I am analysing the opposition to find weaknesses. And finishing anywhere that's not relegation with Luton is okay. So you don't have to only play fast tempo.

I don't disagree I find the game not challenging at times, but this is also down to the defensive 'issues'. My opinion here isn't that everything is fine and the ME is brilliantly balanced. But what I do think is that things are a little more complex than just "gegenpress is OP". Or maybe, I'm just thinking overly technical about it. I believe various things are contributing to the effectiveness of these instructions and role combinations. And then the thing that actually measures the intensity of the press, every team are so close, everyone (according to the data) is playing aggressively as you can see in the screenshot. 9 teams on average allow 4 passes before making a defensive action. The rest allow 5 if you round it up/down. There's really no difference there, on average, in how intense teams are in the game off the ball. But big differences in defence lines. All according to the data, of course. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

When i wrote fast, i wanted to say that i skip all the things i have done before. Training, i dont go to press conference, i dont analize opponent. I dont spend much time on searching who to buy.  I just clik click as fast as i can and play match on key highlights. 

In other words, I dont think 2 much, like i did before. Still i overachieve.

 

 

 

Edited February 25 by Matej

[fc.cadoni]

4 hours ago, zeza said:

Do we know what will be fixed in the next update? 

Scouting is still broken and we don't have an answer in the bug thread since the moderator told us that if a player is not interested in a move he won't show up in a Focus even when us players know that it happens and we can filter them by interest.

If the moderator team doesn't know how the system works or know what's broken, I can't imagine the dev team does..

It will be fixed.

[fc.cadoni]

4 hours ago, moriartysb28 said:

Can it change in every career I open? So one could have 151 and the other could have 179, right?

Yeah if you assign a negative PA in Pre-Game Editor, every time you start a new save will have different PA number.

You can search the ranges about negative as well.

[moriartysb28]

42 dakika önce, fc.cadoni said:

Yeah if you assign a negative PA in Pre-Game Editor, every time you start a new save will have different PA number.

You can search the ranges about negative as well.

Do negative numbers like -9, -10 mean anything other than the PA range?

[Andrew Marines]

I agree with @RDF Tacticson a lot of things. You can play everything and succeed if you know what you're doing.

The main issue isn't the tactics tho. It's the AI. You can see it when you play online: if you play a 4231 gegenpress online and the opponent is an  above average FM player, you'll get fu**ed a lot of times. The opponent's gonna counter it easily knowing how it plays. But what about the CPU? Playing against the AI feels like something scripted even if it isn't. Even the squad building and the playing time is really bad so, if you do a long term save it'll get worse.

Until AI is massively improved, we won't see any kind of difficulty 

[glenjamin]

Still continuing to miss penalties at an alarming rate while struggling to save any at the other end. Here are some statistics from my current season to prove just how broken penalties are:

Taken:

Missed (penalty taking 13)

Scored (15)

Missed (15)

Scored (15)

Missed (11)

Missed (16)

Missed (16)

Missed (16)

Scored (16)

Total: 3/9

Conceded:

Scored (17)

Scored (14)

Scored (17)

Total: 3/3

[wazzaflow10]

13 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

The best way to test your theories about what it's possible to win with is to play a large network save. You will very quickly find out how much stronger the meta is than something that may be logical for your side but isn't the meta.

That's every online interaction in existence though. It doesn't mean the game is broken for people who are trying to play a normal, non-exploitative way. There's always been exploits or a meta theory in the game. That also exists in real life. Pep's tactics are the meta theory for most of Europe. Winning the ball higher up the pitch gives you better odds and not conceding. That's the real life "meta."

Should the game make it harder to press high up the pitch either in terms of performance loss due to condition or number of injuries or attributes needed? Probably. But I don't think the problem is really that widespread unless you're trying to defeat the engine instead of the other player/AI tactic. But why play that way or play with people who want to play that way online?

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

That's every online interaction in existence though. It doesn't mean the game is broken for people who are trying to play a normal, non-exploitative way. There's always been exploits or a meta theory in the game. That also exists in real life. Pep's tactics are the meta theory for most of Europe. Winning the ball higher up the pitch gives you better odds and not conceding. That's the real life "meta."

Should the game make it harder to press high up the pitch either in terms of performance loss due to condition or number of injuries or attributes needed? Probably. But I don't think the problem is really that widespread unless you're trying to defeat the engine instead of the other player/AI tactic. But why play that way or play with people who want to play that way online?

No qualms with any of that. It's just that the meta has become so far OP that it doesn't matter whether you have the players to make such a style reasonable.

Edited February 26 by whatsupdoc

[kiwityke1983]

8 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Whenever I see slightly mad results I wonder what would be made of it on these forums if it were to happen to someone in FM.

Team goes into a Cup final missing 4-5 guaranteed starters, loses a midfielder to injury after half an hour so the RB has to play on the wing, opposition miss several hilarious sitters, reserve keeper makes a couple of blinding saves, team plays extra time with 5 players aged 20 or below and an average age of 22, then wins in the 119th minute with a header from a corner.

It was in the script I tell you!

Not a surprise to me because Poch is the most over rated manager on Earth an absolute bottle job who couldn't even win the French league with PSG every season.

If anyone was going to get "FM'd" it would be him.