Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[SimonHoddle]

On 30/12/2023 at 05:40, Sunstrikuuu said:

There's a saying about tactics getting the ball to the attacking third, but from there it's up to the players to put it in the net.  That's how playing this match engine feels.  I can get the ball to the feet of a playmaker with creative attributes, PPMs and PIs with runners ahead of him and passing targets, but I can't stop him from waiting till they're offside to make the pass,  or passing it to the runner's feet so he has to check the run, but it's just a little behind so he has to do a little circle and when he's got it under control all the momentum is gone.  I can try to set up a good defensive shape, but I can't stop two players from just... walking away from an attacker with the ball?  not running towards? acting in all respects as if the attacking player isn't there? in the penalty area.  I just lost 3-0 in a Champions League match as players ambled around with the ball as the defenders go 'no, no, after you!' all the way down the pitch.  In real football it'd be sickening.  A match like that in Italy, players would have their tires slashed and there'd be barricades outside the dressing room.  In FM it's completely normal!  That's just what the match engine does, all the time.  

FM22 was, in my view, the best match engine in a long time.  It had two troubles.  Inside forwards and inverted wingers didn't behave correctly throughout that entire generation.  That was the first problem.  The second problem was that attributes didn't matter very much, and a well set up attacking tactic could tikkitakka the ball down the pitch with 40 passes and slot the ball into the net like 2009 Barca at the Camp Nou even when they were really an amateur Welsh side playing in a literal bog.  Bad teams could play like good teams, good teams played like great teams, and it was the best way to play.  You never had to ask questions like 'can Cambridge United really play with mezzalas and inverted wingbacks?'.  FM23, in my view, made every team play like a bad team, or at least a team filled with bad players.  Suddenly defenders didn't know how tall they were and ridiculous stuff like that.  It stopped being video-game football and started being foosball, just balls pingponging around randomly until someone pull the handle too hard and the ball gets knocked out of the cabinet and rolls under a table and you can't find it.  FM24 feels like... I dunno, man.  When you have the ball in your defensive third, you can pass pass pass teams to absolute death.  I went pass-for-pass with Barcelona using a fourth-division amateur Spanish side down to ten men as an experiment; 181 successful passes out of 184 in my own half against 4-2-3-1 Barca pressing as hard as possible.  When you have the ball in your attacking third, you're just playing the Decisions Attribute Lottery, and in that game everyone loses.  And when you don't have the ball no one does anything.  That's why gegenpressing is the meta tactic and has been for a while: if you aren't doing it, your defensive strategy relies on the attacking team misplacing passes -- and that happens a lot!  You can get pretty far waiting for a team to get bored passing at the back and just hoof it forward.  Ball progression kind of comes down to a simple question: will the attacking team pass the ball around and forward, or will a player kick it long when they don't have to?.  That tension, between players being able to pass at the back essentially at will without resistance, and their tendency to occasionally just hoof the ball forward when they don't need to, is the primary tension in the buildup phase of an attack.

I basically believe -- I guess this edges into the land of conspiracy? -- that even the developers don't know what makes certain things happen.  There are so many factors that go into each action -- long-term stamina, short-term high-intensity stamina, technique, decisions, tactics, TIs PIs PPMs, decisions, mentality, morale, this thing that thing the other thing -- that the match engine is fundamentally a black box.  Inputs go in, ????, outputs come out.  And over the last few years, as the match engine has lurched back and forth between meta styles, the rest of the game has stagnated or collapsed completely.

Interesting post. Very descriptive. I think any version which doesn’t reflect attributes is a disaster. I can’t remember if it was 21 or 22 and I bought Trent Alexander Arnold. His attributes were through the roof but in the actual match he played identically to every other player. It was so boring having the greatest dribblers, passers, tacklers etc and they all played the same way. I think 24 is definitely improving on those individual qualities being shown in a match. 

I think you’re definitely right about the ME evolving so intricately that even the developers must find it a mission to understand. But…but…. They will understand better than any of us. It should be on them to release developers notes etc. tell us the ME anomalies. We won’t get upset! Treat us like adults. If I knew the ME finds it difficult to MM in certain situations I’d be relaxed but they seem to,have the Royal Family motto of “never complain, never explain “.

tbh I have a particular gripe about SI right now. I only have the time to play Touch and it’s quite clear the Data Hub isn’t fit for purpose on that. SIs response was “we are satisfied it’s not 100% inaccurate “!!!!!. That’s a message from a company that is in defensive rather than assistance mode. 

it’s all about 25 now. It’s a separate project and one which I’m sure they’re learning from all their past mistakes. I have always commended SI for producing one of the best games in history. I think they lost their way sometime in 2017 and struggled to find it again since, let’s hope 25 brings a whole new experience and a developer who is happy to engage with its fans again.

[whatsupdoc]

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

[DolphinSpain]

I'll ask again as there was no answer; has the 'play offside trap' been removed from tactics? It sounds like an obvious answer but I find it ridiculous if it has.

[rp1966]

11 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

Role >>>>> Attributes.  Been that way ever since roles were introduced.  Basically the game is mostly role-Lego.  Players don't matter nearly as much as they ought to.

Add it to the catalogue of things everyone wants to see improved in FM25 (like that's really going to happen).

The thing is for all it's faults FM is still a compelling and enjoyable game. Sometimes you just need to suspend disbelief a little and avoid doing things like this that expose the game's shortcomings.

 

[Rodrigogc]

21 minutos atrás, whatsupdoc disse:

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

I played a Fulham save as well, couldn't get my center forwards to score consistently (Jimenez, Carlos and Muniz) and thought about selling them all. Apparently you found a better solution 🤣

 

When will we be able to take this game seriously ?

[Jack Sarahs]

19 minutes ago, DolphinSpain said:

I'll ask again as there was no answer; has the 'play offside trap' been removed from tactics? It sounds like an obvious answer but I find it ridiculous if it has.

Yes it’s been removed

[dannyo666]

35 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

It seems only physical and mental matter in 24....i put saliba upfront for a season,he got 15 goals,he looked like a world class poacher.....As someone said everything thats needs to be said has been said...i really dont know where this series is going....

[whatsupdoc]

11 hours ago, dannyo666 said:

It seems only physical and mental matter in 24....i put saliba upfront for a season,he got 15 goals,he looked like a world class poacher.....As someone said everything thats needs to be said has been said...i really dont know where this series is going....

I don't think any of it matters enough. This GK/striker is 17 and also has very bad mentals for the EPL (e.g. composure & concentration are 7/20). Concentration is an exception actually. Strongly impacts offsides for strikers. 

Earlier on I put two strikers in a 442.

One had 20/20 for work rate, team work, stamina, acceleration, pace etc etc. 

The other had 1/20 for all the same stats. 

At the end of the match (442 gegenpress) the difference in distance covered was 700 metres. 

The difference between history's laziest player and history's hardest worker should be a bit wider. Imagine like... A semi-pro player after a night out next to prime Diego Costa or Vardy something.

I think the roles are just too hard coded and there isn't enough variation caused by attributes. This is tricky for SI as widening it widens the possibility of unforseen issues, which is probs one reason they've moved toward the more restrictive roles.

Edited December 31, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[RDF Tactics]

On 29/12/2023 at 22:16, fc.cadoni said:

Rule 1: Not give promise which you cannot fill. Same apply to real life, not matter if it's football or not (being very old lol)

That's not strictly the best advice in my opinion. In general yes. But, in football, things change. You may have a plan at the start of the season that needs tweaking as you go along as everyone would advise you to do if results aren't great.

IRL, I can promise you the player I want from you will play as a Poacher. As the season goes on, we change to AF because it's better for the team and him. His form is brilliant as a AF, you won't then call him back for a broken promise, would you?

Common sense needs to be installed. The game could have possibly more than one option for the role promise or maybe just eliminate the 'role' part of a loan and leave squad status. But, teams IRL won't be recalling a striker scoring 50 goals because the feeder team aren't playing him in the role as promised. I think in a few areas, there's a lack of sense

[steve333333]

I have to say, I'm struggling to really enjoy this game while still playing a lot.

On the one hand, some parts of the match game experience are by far the most sophisticated they've ever been. The way the ball moves, the deflections, the variations in shot types are all things of beauty. Makes me wonder why more focus has not been put into this before.

I don't require better quality graphics than what we have, just a better depiction of the way football is played, with all it's different types of shots, passes, saves, ricochets, tackles etc. Give me more animations! I can't wait for a game which depicts stepovers, and I hope this is the area which the FM team put all their energy into improving for the next edition.

I'd also say the game has been visually improved so much by the modders out there. I've got a beautiful skin, photos of players and stadiums and it really brings life to it.

On the other, there are a number of bugs in my game which really detract from my experience. I don't know about others, but I'm currently playing in England and - no matter what the weather says, be that downpour or drizzle - the match is played out in a hazy summer light, half of the players in my game have lost all their career history, and my scouts are incapable of finding anyone. This is just a selection of the most irritating ones to me.

I understand bugs are part and parcel of a game, but it's disappointing that something as fundamental as the visuals of a match is still a problem well after the release date. I feel like I'm having to overlooking faults in large parts of the game to enjoy it.

Then, there are the other wider issues such as the flawed player interaction system in need of a complete rewrite, the stale, generic stadium visuals which must be opened up to modding, the inability of the AI to squad build, and the lack of distinct tactical styles on display.

At its core, there's a potentially brilliant game here but its flaws make it a frustrating experience for me.

[Rodrigogc]

16 minutos atrás, g1nh0 disse:

This was already common knowledge I thought, attributes don't really matter at all in FM.

Why not remove them then ? I know this is weird, but real football's got no attributes. That would probably put more emphasis on training, since in FM training is only supposed to increase or decrease attributes.

 

I confess I've thought about this multiple times and can't find a way SI could present a football game without attributes but that would be a massive game-changer in terms of realism. 

 

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

9 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

This was already common knowledge I thought, attributes don't really matter at all in FM.

This isn't true. There are certain attributes you can see a clear and obvious performance outcome from:

Cards and Fouls: dirtiness/aggression/tackling. 

Concentration: Offsides (for strikers)

Set pieces

Any of the more isolated events correlate quite closely. Which makes perfect sense.

When multiple players attributes collide it gets less definitive. If someone with 20 for crossing whips it in for someone with 1 for heading it's a less clear outcome. This is fine and dandy. 

I think where it struggles though is certain roles and role combinations are OP and will put players in positions (regardless of their off the ball or positioning stats) where it's basically impossible for them to fail. On the flip side, some very logical roles/combinations will never or rarely get players into the right situations regardless of their quality. 

Advanced forwards and double DMs seem particularly OP this version. 

Gegenpress is another. Player's attributes are overshadowed by the hard coding to too great an extent.

False 9s and IFs, are an example of something difficult to get working. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[g1nh0]

So why can teams / players with a lack of ability are able to successfully produce tiki taka football like prime Barca, including at the lower levels, and sub keepers are scoring against elite teams / defenders away from home and on a consistent basis from the above example? Seems quite clear the most critical determinants of generating a style of play, a result and a realistic scoreline through player selection are flawed based on screenshot evidence.

OP roles and balancing them has always been an issue with FM yes, completely agree there and your positional examples, and gegenpressing. I've tried myself to use an F9, but because of the huge imbalance that exists in this year's ME it all seems a bit pointless - like using anything other than gegenpress on the tactical side, and it has made this a boring edition to play this year in addition to the lack of difficulty.

Edited December 31, 2023 by g1nh0

[whatsupdoc]

9 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

So why can teams / players with a lack of ability are able to successfully produce tiki taka football like prime Barca, including at the lower levels, and sub keepers are scoring against elite teams / defenders away from home and on a consistent basis from the above example? Seems quite clear the most critical determinants of generating a style of play, a result and a realistic scoreline through player selection are flawed based on screenshot evidence.

OP roles and balancing them has always been an issue with FM yes, completely agree there and your positional examples, and gegenpressing. I've tried myself to use an F9, but because of the huge imbalance that exists in this year's ME it all seems a bit pointless - like using anything other than gegenpress on the tactical side, and it has made this a boring edition to play this year in addition to the lack of difficulty.

Any team can play Tiki Taka at any level. My u21s do irl and we're top of the league. It's about the relative quality of the opponent as well. 

My personal feeling is that the most significant issue is hard coding of movement which is not impacted enough by attributes. I.e. role X will move from here to here in possession. When the ball is at X, he will be at or moving towards Y. Some variation of the old Wibble/Wobble from decades ago. It's probs much more complicated than that though.

Edited December 31, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[DolphinSpain]

Is there any substitute for getting players to hold a line in order to replicate an offside trap? For it to have been removed without something similar makes zero sense! Teams do still try to hold a straight line to catch oppostion strikers offside!

[fc.cadoni]

47 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

This was already common knowledge I thought, attributes don't really matter at all in FM.

If that was the case, then a player (ST) with CA 50 will have the same performance as someone like Haaland in the same team. Guess what, it's not happen.

[fc.cadoni]

2 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

That's not strictly the best advice in my opinion. In general yes. But, in football, things change. You may have a plan at the start of the season that needs tweaking as you go along as everyone would advise you to do if results aren't great.

IRL, I can promise you the player I want from you will play as a Poacher. As the season goes on, we change to AF because it's better for the team and him. His form is brilliant as a AF, you won't then call him back for a broken promise, would you?

Common sense needs to be installed. The game could have possibly more than one option for the role promise or maybe just eliminate the 'role' part of a loan and leave squad status. But, teams IRL won't be recalling a striker scoring 50 goals because the feeder team aren't playing him in the role as promised. I think in a few areas, there's a lack of sense

Since the game has been designed in that way, you try to avoid some things; one of them is promises.

With the tag "what if..." from what happens actually; is two different worlds.

Common sense needed to be installed, but falls into the "what if..." until common sense being implemented to actual code. Otherwise, promises (right now - as things stands) is high risk to damage morale which gonna affect performance. 

[g1nh0]

16 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

If that was the case, then a player (ST) with CA 50 will have the same performance as someone like Haaland in the same team. Guess what, it's not happen.

Indeed - seems placing a keeper up front is a better resolution

[fc.cadoni]

5 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Indeed - seems placing a keeper up front is a better resolution

 

[alian62]

1 hour ago, steve333333 said:

I have to say, I'm struggling to really enjoy this game while still playing a lot.

On the one hand, some parts of the match game experience are by far the most sophisticated they've ever been. The way the ball moves, the deflections, the variations in shot types are all things of beauty. Makes me wonder why more focus has not been put into this before.

I don't require better quality graphics than what we have, just a better depiction of the way football is played, with all it's different types of shots, passes, saves, ricochets, tackles etc. Give me more animations! I can't wait for a game which depicts stepovers, and I hope this is the area which the FM team put all their energy into improving for the next edition.

I'd also say the game has been visually improved so much by the modders out there. I've got a beautiful skin, photos of players and stadiums and it really brings life to it.

On the other, there are a number of bugs in my game which really detract from my experience. I don't know about others, but I'm currently playing in England and - no matter what the weather says, be that downpour or drizzle - the match is played out in a hazy summer light, half of the players in my game have lost all their career history, and my scouts are incapable of finding anyone. This is just a selection of the most irritating ones to me.

I understand bugs are part and parcel of a game, but it's disappointing that something as fundamental as the visuals of a match is still a problem well after the release date. I feel like I'm having to overlooking faults in large parts of the game to enjoy it.

Then, there are the other wider issues such as the flawed player interaction system in need of a complete rewrite, the stale, generic stadium visuals which must be opened up to modding, the inability of the AI to squad build, and the lack of distinct tactical styles on display.

At its core, there's a potentially brilliant game here but its flaws make it a frustrating experience for me.

The weather is beyond the capabilities of the match engine which has been discussed before . Its never been any good in any series but hoping next year will see improvements with the new graphics engine

[Sunstrikuuu]

Here's the problem with pressing:

This is kind of a dream pressing position.  Ball's in the corner, under pressure, only possible passing target can be closed down quickly, close to the opposition's goal so it's dangerous.  Except if we fast-forward a bit, just to after the Brighton fullback takes the only pass that's available to him, this happens:

You can see as we zoom out that the pressing fullback is in full flow backwards.  The winger is tracking back into midfield, and the central midfielder is backpedaling. Suddenly the press looks like this:

Now it's in a bizarre position where it's easy to play through and it's also vulnerable to a pass over the top.

Defender movement in pressing situations is, like most defending movement, way too passive. 

[WelshMourinho]

Honestly I think people in here would be better off seeing the match engine as a visualisation of team vs team and system vs system, as opposed to watching it as you would a normal game of football. 

To give a more specific example of what I mean, take how many goals originate from throw ins. Yes it's frustrating to watch, but there's nothing you can do about it. It's less "look how good this team is at exploiting throw ins" and more "the game has calculated that x team is better and is going to score here" and it just chooses a starting point on how to display that.

Take the pressing example above too. I agree it looks silly and is annoying because we all watch football every weekend and we know what pressing looks like, but FM is simply not going to be able to match the intricacies of a real life pressing machine. I've made my peace with that. If your team is good and your set up is good, you'll win plenty of games, it just won't look exactly as it looks in real life. 

The only stuff I really look at in terms of watching the match engine are the basics, such as are we getting done over the top regularly, or do my players have good passing options. If I sat there and tried to analyse every moment of weakness I think I'd have binned this game a long time ago lmao

Edited December 31, 2023 by WelshMourinho

[XaW]

Removed a few posts. As a reminder, criticism is fine, but keep the language clean, please. Swearing is not acceptable for this forum, as it's also used by children.

Also, remember to try to be constructive as to what kind of change would improve if you have parts of the game you think are lacking.

[WelshMourinho]

7 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

This is like that save someone did a few years back where they put Phil Jones as a striker with PSG and won things.

You aren't supposed to come to the conclusion that Setford or Jones are good strikers. The conclusion should be that the other 10 players are solid footballers and the system is solid, so yes, the game doesn't make these players absolutely useless.

Real life is moment by moment, second by second. The Football Manager match engine isn't.

[Rodrigogc]

44 minutos atrás, WelshMourinho disse:

Honestly I think people in here would be better off seeing the match engine as a visualisation of team vs team and system vs system, as opposed to watching it as you would a normal game of football. 

To give a more specific example of what I mean, take how many goals originate from throw ins. Yes it's frustrating to watch, but there's nothing you can do about it. It's less "look how good this team is at exploiting throw ins" and more "the game has calculated that x team is better and is going to score here" and it just chooses a starting point on how to display that.

Take the pressing example above too. I agree it looks silly and is annoying because we all watch football every weekend and we know what pressing looks like, but FM is simply not going to be able to match the intricacies of a real life pressing machine. I've made my peace with that. If your team is good and your set up is good, you'll win plenty of games, it just won't look exactly as it looks in real life. 

The only stuff I really look at in terms of watching the match engine are the basics, such as are we getting done over the top regularly, or do my players have good passing options. If I sat there and tried to analyse every moment of weakness I think I'd have binned this game a long time ago lmao

Well, it should. Maybe the new FM25 engine might improve the game in this aspect, because FM has been around for decades and if they want to insert a gegenpressing system, they should do it properly, not just for the sake of it.

I agree it is just a computer game and it won't be fully realistic, but the purpose of simulation is to increase realism as time goes by. Pressing in football nowadays is almost essential, so the game should simulate it properly. We are in an era of football where many systems have been proven to be efficient (gegenpressing with Liverpool, positional play with Man city, defensive and counter attack with Atlético Madrid, functional play with Real Madrid...) So I think devs should put a lot of effort  focusing on how to improve realism within the ME instead of adding useless stuff like face paint...

I understand people who come to terms with the game flaws, but to me this is a way of taking responsibility from the company. In the end we all want a better game as loyal fans, but being complacent with evident flaws that never get fixed to me is not the best way to help SI deliver a better simulator.

 

Football is a spectacular sport and the price for making a game that will sell lots is having to find the balance to suit people's demands. Someone said early and I agree, this community here is what keeps the game alive, and I think SI should listen to the innumerous reports and complaints because they come from people who love the game, not only casuals who play to win everything within a season and quit.

[Sunstrikuuu]

3 minutes ago, WelshMourinho said:

Honestly I think people in here would be better off seeing the match engine as a visualisation of team vs team and system vs system, as opposed to watching it as you would a normal game of football. 

To give a more specific example of what I mean, take how many goals originate from throw ins. Yes it's frustrating to watch, but there's nothing you can do about it. It's less "look how good this team is at exploiting throw ins" and more "the game has calculated that x team is better and is going to score here" and it just chooses a starting point on how to display that.

Take the pressing example above too. I agree it looks silly and is annoying because we all watch football every weekend and we know what pressing looks like, but FM is simply not going to be able to match the intricacies of a real life pressing machine. I've made my peace with that. If your team is good and your set up is good, you'll win plenty of games, it just won't look exactly as it looks in real life. 

The only stuff I really look at in terms of watching the match engine are the basics, such as are we getting done over the top regularly, or do my players have good passing options. If I sat there and tried to analyse every moment of weakness I think I'd have binned this game a long time ago lmao

What it looks like doesn't matter.  What matters is happening under the hood.  So if I'm watching for the basics in that situation, I'm seeing that they're not being done.  There are too many passing options available and the front of the team is disconnected from the midfield.  Passing lanes aren't closed down and the only pressure on the ball is passive.  Is this a system problem?  I suppose it could be, but I've tried a lot of systems.  So I'm left to think that the key defensive action of the 2020s isn't working as it should within the match engine.  It's not that it looks silly, it's that the basics aren't being done because the dial is turned too far towards defensive structure and holding of positions across the whole eleven.  

[WelshMourinho]

16 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Well, it should. Maybe the new FM25 engine might improve the game in this aspect, because FM has been around for decades and if they want to insert a gegenpressing system, they should do it properly, not just for the sake of it.

I agree it is just a computer game and it won't be fully realistic, but the purpose of simulation is to increase realism as time goes by. Pressing in football nowadays is almost essential, so the game should simulate it properly. We are in an era of football where many systems have been proven to be efficient (gegenpressing with Liverpool, positional play with Man city, defensive and counter attack with Atlético Madrid, functional play with Real Madrid...) So I think devs should put a lot of effort  focusing on how to improve realism within the ME instead of adding useless stuff like face paint...

I understand people who come to terms with the game flaws, but to me this is a way of taking responsibility from the company. In the end we all want a better game as loyal fans, but being complacent with evident flaws that never get fixed to me is not the best way to help SI deliver a better simulator.

 

Football is a spectacular sport and the price for making a game that will sell lots is having to find the balance to suit people's demands. Someone said early and I agree, this community here is what keeps the game alive, and I think SI should listen to the innumerous reports and complaints because they come from people who love the game, not only casuals who play to win everything within a season and quit.

Maybe FM25 will change how it looks, but I disagree that it's in the game "for the sake of it." 

It's quite literally the most dominant system in the game, it might not look exactly as it does in real life but you can set up a pressing system and in the FM world it will work. I mean you're talking about efficiency? It's by far the most efficient system in the game and most would probably say it's too efficient. They've made attempts with certain elements of Man City's play, and there are plenty of people on these forums who have had success playing a deep counter attacking tactic. 

 

Is it a game flaw? I disagree, I don't think it looks pretty, but I also don't think it's not working. It just looks how it does in the realms of the FM world. I understand why people don't like that, but I don't think it's having half the effect on the actual game as people seem to think.

[whatsupdoc]

39 minutes ago, WelshMourinho said:

This is like that save someone did a few years back where they put Phil Jones as a striker with PSG and won things.

You aren't supposed to come to the conclusion that Setford or Jones are good strikers. The conclusion should be that the other 10 players are solid footballers and the system is solid, so yes, the game doesn't make these players absolutely useless.

Real life is moment by moment, second by second. The Football Manager match engine isn't.

I guess I was focussed on a third option, namely that the AF role in that 4231 can make a turnip score goals. 

I tried in vain to make so many combinations work for JImenez based on his stats, the stats of those around him, what the team was good and bad at... eventually I just threw it on AF and a landslide of goals came. 

I'll upload some PKMs of Setford's inevitable march to the golden boot for SI to take a look at.

Edited December 31, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[Etebaer]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb alian62:

Don't think that was the reason . EA were not the best at listening to there fan base . They more likely stopped the game for poor sales results as everyone went to SI 

Well, for one it was a game originating form a german manager game that never had a good foothold abroad and the sales diminished bcs it became more and more crap bcs the devs and the dev lead did know **** about the game and their customers.

The responsible lead guy imho was overchallenged and expressed his wish to make the game more like the old low complexity manager games where you can play 10 season a day and merge it with a sort of trading card game **** in multiplayer.

There are more ambitious games out made by solo devs!

 

They simply worked toward their own downfall and deserved it eventually!

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Etebaer

[WelshMourinho]

10 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

What it looks like doesn't matter.  What matters is happening under the hood.  So if I'm watching for the basics in that situation, I'm seeing that they're not being done.  There are too many passing options available and the front of the team is disconnected from the midfield.  Passing lanes aren't closed down and the only pressure on the ball is passive.  Is this a system problem?  I suppose it could be, but I've tried a lot of systems.  So I'm left to think that the key defensive action of the 2020s isn't working as it should within the match engine.  It's not that it looks silly, it's that the basics aren't being done because the dial is turned too far towards defensive structure and holding of positions across the whole eleven.  

But you're watching for the basics that you'd see in the real world and things that coaches can actively look to work on if they see aren't working. What do you have on the game that impacts passing lanes being closed down? Your options on the game are how high you press, how often you trigger that press and whether or not you press from goal kicks. 

Do you think pressing high isn't a viable tactic in the game?

[WelshMourinho]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I guess I was focussed on a third option, namely that the AF role in that 4231 can make a turnip score goals. 

I tried in vain to make so many combinations work for JImenez based on his stats, the stats of those around him, what the team was good and bad at... eventually I just threw it on AF and a landslide of goals came. 

I'll upload some PKMs of Setford's inevitable march to the golden boot for SI to take a look at.

Maybe the AF just suits the rest of your team more? You still have 10 solid PL players in your line ups, and the game doesn't really have the ability to determine that a player is going to miss a chance in said moment, at least as I understand it.

[Ti Ago]

8 horas atrás, whatsupdoc disse:

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

👀

[Sunstrikuuu]

2 hours ago, WelshMourinho said:

But you're watching for the basics that you'd see in the real world and things that coaches can actively look to work on if they see aren't working. What do you have on the game that impacts passing lanes being closed down? Your options on the game are how high you press, how often you trigger that press and whether or not you press from goal kicks. 

Do you think pressing high isn't a viable tactic in the game?

No, I think the opposite: pressing high is essentially the only viable tactic, because by default players are too passive in defense, and the more buttons you click to make them do things the better your defense will be.  Even the max-press-max-tackle most aggressively front-footed defense you can put together isn't as active in pressing, harrying and closing down as good IRL pressing sides.  

Imagine this side with an extra DM in it (this is a mid-match screenshot after a red card).  This side has an average CA in the starting XI of 81.  Against this Barcelona side using these tactics:

That Ursaria (Spanish Second Group, which makes it the fourth tier) side completed 90% of its passes, had 45% possession (with ten men, remember), and attempted 184 passes in their own half at 98.5% success (181/184).  Ursaria completed 95% (38/40) short passes in Barca's half, and 95% (178/185) of their medium passes.  I watched this full match, and the primary method Barcelona used to recover the ball was waiting for an Ursaria player to kick it long under no pressure.  That is, they waited for the Decisions Attribute Lottery to come up in their favor rather than proactively recovering the ball.  Barcelona should be able to press this team so aggressively they have nightmares about it.  But that's not how this ME works.

Pressing high does not work correctly, but it's viable because the defensive defaults are all too low.  High LOE behaves like a mid block.  Mid blocks behave like low blocks.  Low blocks behave like a team in the next-to-last minute of stoppage time up 1-0 in a cup final.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Sunstrikuuu

[kiingallen]

10 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Example of attributes not mattering enough:

Put my 17 year old back-up keeper in the AF role for a couple of games:

Note the 1 off the ball, 3 first touch etc etc.

First game in the league cup we won 5-0, he scored and finished on a 7.6 rating:

 

Second game away to Arsenal we lost 5-2 but he scores and rates 7.1.

 

Next game at home to Liverpool, Van Dijk is no match for him as he scores for the third game running and we run out 3-2 winners: 

 

Conversion rate of 43% from 0.23 XG/shot.

C

 

Im tired of all the excuses made for this game. 

A lot of people will have you believe that you are the problem when things like this exist. And when people complain about overachieving, its also their fault for not making the game harder for themselves by nerfing their 'OP' tactics.

ANOTHER year of disappointment, and hoping that the game comes good in final patch 1/2 - 3/4 into the real world season. 

[alian62]

5 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Well, it should. Maybe the new FM25 engine might improve the game in this aspect, because FM has been around for decades and if they want to insert a gegenpressing system, they should do it properly, not just for the sake of it.

I agree it is just a computer game and it won't be fully realistic, but the purpose of simulation is to increase realism as time goes by. Pressing in football nowadays is almost essential, so the game should simulate it properly. We are in an era of football where many systems have been proven to be efficient (gegenpressing with Liverpool, positional play with Man city, defensive and counter attack with Atlético Madrid, functional play with Real Madrid...) So I think devs should put a lot of effort  focusing on how to improve realism within the ME instead of adding useless stuff like face paint...

I understand people who come to terms with the game flaws, but to me this is a way of taking responsibility from the company. In the end we all want a better game as loyal fans, but being complacent with evident flaws that never get fixed to me is not the best way to help SI deliver a better simulator.

 

Football is a spectacular sport and the price for making a game that will sell lots is having to find the balance to suit people's demands. Someone said early and I agree, this community here is what keeps the game alive, and I think SI should listen to the innumerous reports and complaints because they come from people who love the game, not only casuals who play to win everything within a season and quit.

It's been well documented that the visual match engine is at its limit hence why its changing . I dont get why people are complaining when we all know its being replaced

[Sunstrikuuu]

1 hour ago, alian62 said:

It's been well documented that the visual match engine is at its limit hence why its changing . I dont get why people are complaining when we all know its being replaced

Because, again, visually most of what's shown by the graphical engine is fine (there are definitely some animation issues where what you see doesn't quite make sense).  Problems like defenders flowing back into shape when they should be pressing up are independent of the visuals.

[Sunstrikuuu]

Player says he's not getting enough playing time.  OK, fair, he's on a contract offering him Regular Starter status (1).  I tell him he's not going to play that much and he should accept Squad Player status.  He gets mad.  After the meeting, I have to manually reduce his playing time, because it's not part of the interaction.  He gets mad a second time, but accepts it when I tell him that giving him Regular Starter playing time will take minutes away from more deserving teammates.  A group of players, all of whom are young backups, tell me I've treated him badly over the first meeting.  One of them literally says "Ah yes, I thought you'd play the unprofessional card", which is a) stupid, I'm sorry but that answer should be fired into the sun, and b) incredibly insulting and stupid from a player who's also asking for more playing time.  Then a group of actually important players get angry that I've reduced the player's playing time (the second interaction!), despite the player in question no longer being upset that his playing time has been reduced.  One of them tells me my job is on the line if I don't give the uhhh seventh-best defender at my club more playing time; I am that player's favorite person in the world (100/100 relationship).  Devs, come ON.  Fix this crap or take the whole system out of the game.  It's valueless.  It's a waste of our time engaging with it and it's a waste of your time maintaining it.  It hasn't been fun or logical or realistic or valuable or offered anything positive at all since it was added to the game, and bug-reporting it is the most tedious thing on earth.  Either fix it or get rid. 

1: I did not sign him to this contract; it's his starting deal so his playing time was set by the researcher for this team.  I think it's a mistake, personally; this team has eight senior defenders in the starting DB.  One is a Star Player, two are Important Players, four are Regular Starters and one is a Squad Player.  That's not balanced and not realistic.  Playing time-related happiness in general is all kinds of messed up.

Edit: According to Dan Ormsby, the Arsenal researcher, playing time expectations are not set by the researcher in the database; it's determined by code based on a variety of factors, not all of which he's aware of.  So I was incorrect in saying that the playing time expectations were set by the researcher.  I think my point -- that squads with lots of good players have imbalanced expectations -- still basically stands though.

Edited January 2 by Sunstrikuuu

[CrowManager]

Just gonna post my mostly positive views on the game, I disagree with a lot of things said in this thread and figured I'd add my schtick. It is worth noting I use the Daveincid Realism mod, have a ton of leagues loaded all around the world, and use the Mustermann skin. So your mileage may vary.

Transfers: I'm not too smart at these, I can't truly tell how well the AI is doing without busting my save. Only thing I can really note is that it is annoying how Free Agents who have no interest suddenly get interest when you offer them a contract though.

Is the youth development better: Yes, it does need more loans, but there are more people going on loans. Think part of the people who get annoyed with this don't have enough leagues active and so players don't get sent to the leagues on loan.

Rotation: Yes.

Difficulty: Really don't know how to describe it. Personally I find it more difficult, not breezing through lower levels on a whim. But I think a lot of people have just learned what they need to do, who to sign, it being easy to know exactly who you want etc. There's no risk in signings the way most people play, as such it feels stale and easy. You focus on specific attributes for whom you know exactly what they are. That can be changed. Plus people getting better at the game tactically as they put more time into it. Don't really think it's a problem, difficulty can be reasonably fiddled with to make the game harder, though yeah it'd be nice if the AI countered you more. But then people would complain about their tactics suddenly melting. dunno. Think it can always be improved by the devs, especially with the AI reacting to you. But also you have multiple different tactics so, how do you not just counter it by changing tactics every match or two? 

Midseason slump: Yeah that's still there unfortunately, though it seems to be lessened, so I imagine that's part of why for some people the game feels easier? But simultaneously the games feel less, rigged? Obviously it's partially placebo, but in my first few seasons I'm not noticing the feeling of just blatantly getting screwed out of games I should be winning to the same levels. Simultaneously, I have struggled in tiers I have not in the past. But again, it doesn't feel like your team just melts and loses all ability to be competent on the field for multiple games like it has in previous editions. It also seems harder to start a season, like your team performs worse at the start, so it's possible that you can no longer just abuse terrible friendly matches to boost morale to help right out of the gate and need to schedule friendlies at your level. But this could just be a small sample size.

At lower levels you can see some differences from top tier beyond simple mistakes, dribbling is slightly more clunky, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if first touch could be changed to make it more obvious the difference. Would also be really curious to see what would happen if they made grass at lower level pitches been coded "Worse" and therefore make mistakes and ball momentum act differently? But a lot of the difference seems to be speed of shooting, maybe it is placebo, but the main difference shooting wise in lower league versus top leagues seems to be that higher level players shoot the ball faster, I mean obviously, but figured it was worth noting that there seem to be less of the absolute rockets at low tier, even if the placement of the shots is still, probably too accurate for lower tier players. The accuracy bit is mostly for close in shots.

There is also some "scripting" still. Like when you know a ball should slow down but it doesn't and goes out of bounds instead. That's rare but it still is a thing.

Scrambles feel more real, deflections are better, I do personally wish that more deflections were slower, there seem to be a lot of very fast deflections still, but you do notice that it has been improved.

Hockey scores: No lmao. That's just people gaslighting. 

Central Defenders apparently being stupid? Can't say I've seen much that looked unrealistic.

Long shots: This is hard to quantify, I don't think they're excessively going in. But I think that's because of limitations. I'd prefer to see more types of long shots, both slowed down but also those aimed more for corners. Imo they aren't converted too high, but that's because that part feels scripted more so to be shot at the keeper, who makes a save, but it looks more impressive than it is because it's fast and aimed high at the keeper. Which is a bit of a downer, would be more realistic if there were more shots going wide from range etc. But overall it works, even if it's eh. It is also worth noting that long shots that are placed still occur, and they can be saved as well. It just is more immersion breaking at lower tiers :P

Throw ins: Yeah a little bit overpowered

Direct Free kicks: Think they're in a good spot.

Indirect Free Kicks: they're okay, but the meta is the same in my view.

Corners: Little less fine, the meta is the same which is disappointing, but it feels a little high. Maybe that's just placebo as I haven't checked.

Press conferences still are boring as hell but that's always been the case

 

Other: People complaining about wanting more realism then complaining about more injuries when injuries are still arguably at too low of levels even when modded are, just. lol. 

Overall while it's lacking in some areas, really don't understand what a ton of vitriol is. Yeah it would be nice if these small, in some cases personal things were fixed, but none of these things are gamebreaking or often major. A lot of my personal complaints are for lower levels of the game which were simply not coded for by the devs. The game really isn't in a terrible state, it is better than FM23. I really don't understand the outrage.

 

 

[dannyo666]

8 hours ago, CrowManager said:

Just gonna post my mostly positive views on the game, I disagree with a lot of things said in this thread and figured I'd add my schtick. It is worth noting I use the Daveincid Realism mod, have a ton of leagues loaded all around the world, and use the Mustermann skin. So your mileage may vary.

Transfers: I'm not too smart at these, I can't truly tell how well the AI is doing without busting my save. Only thing I can really note is that it is annoying how Free Agents who have no interest suddenly get interest when you offer them a contract though.

Is the youth development better: Yes, it does need more loans, but there are more people going on loans. Think part of the people who get annoyed with this don't have enough leagues active and so players don't get sent to the leagues on loan.

Rotation: Yes.

Difficulty: Really don't know how to describe it. Personally I find it more difficult, not breezing through lower levels on a whim. But I think a lot of people have just learned what they need to do, who to sign, it being easy to know exactly who you want etc. There's no risk in signings the way most people play, as such it feels stale and easy. You focus on specific attributes for whom you know exactly what they are. That can be changed. Plus people getting better at the game tactically as they put more time into it. Don't really think it's a problem, difficulty can be reasonably fiddled with to make the game harder, though yeah it'd be nice if the AI countered you more. But then people would complain about their tactics suddenly melting. dunno. Think it can always be improved by the devs, especially with the AI reacting to you. But also you have multiple different tactics so, how do you not just counter it by changing tactics every match or two? 

Midseason slump: Yeah that's still there unfortunately, though it seems to be lessened, so I imagine that's part of why for some people the game feels easier? But simultaneously the games feel less, rigged? Obviously it's partially placebo, but in my first few seasons I'm not noticing the feeling of just blatantly getting screwed out of games I should be winning to the same levels. Simultaneously, I have struggled in tiers I have not in the past. But again, it doesn't feel like your team just melts and loses all ability to be competent on the field for multiple games like it has in previous editions. It also seems harder to start a season, like your team performs worse at the start, so it's possible that you can no longer just abuse terrible friendly matches to boost morale to help right out of the gate and need to schedule friendlies at your level. But this could just be a small sample size.

At lower levels you can see some differences from top tier beyond simple mistakes, dribbling is slightly more clunky, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if first touch could be changed to make it more obvious the difference. Would also be really curious to see what would happen if they made grass at lower level pitches been coded "Worse" and therefore make mistakes and ball momentum act differently? But a lot of the difference seems to be speed of shooting, maybe it is placebo, but the main difference shooting wise in lower league versus top leagues seems to be that higher level players shoot the ball faster, I mean obviously, but figured it was worth noting that there seem to be less of the absolute rockets at low tier, even if the placement of the shots is still, probably too accurate for lower tier players. The accuracy bit is mostly for close in shots.

There is also some "scripting" still. Like when you know a ball should slow down but it doesn't and goes out of bounds instead. That's rare but it still is a thing.

Scrambles feel more real, deflections are better, I do personally wish that more deflections were slower, there seem to be a lot of very fast deflections still, but you do notice that it has been improved.

Hockey scores: No lmao. That's just people gaslighting. 

Central Defenders apparently being stupid? Can't say I've seen much that looked unrealistic.

Long shots: This is hard to quantify, I don't think they're excessively going in. But I think that's because of limitations. I'd prefer to see more types of long shots, both slowed down but also those aimed more for corners. Imo they aren't converted too high, but that's because that part feels scripted more so to be shot at the keeper, who makes a save, but it looks more impressive than it is because it's fast and aimed high at the keeper. Which is a bit of a downer, would be more realistic if there were more shots going wide from range etc. But overall it works, even if it's eh. It is also worth noting that long shots that are placed still occur, and they can be saved as well. It just is more immersion breaking at lower tiers :P

Throw ins: Yeah a little bit overpowered

Direct Free kicks: Think they're in a good spot.

Indirect Free Kicks: they're okay, but the meta is the same in my view.

Corners: Little less fine, the meta is the same which is disappointing, but it feels a little high. Maybe that's just placebo as I haven't checked.

Press conferences still are boring as hell but that's always been the case

 

Other: People complaining about wanting more realism then complaining about more injuries when injuries are still arguably at too low of levels even when modded are, just. lol. 

Overall while it's lacking in some areas, really don't understand what a ton of vitriol is. Yeah it would be nice if these small, in some cases personal things were fixed, but none of these things are gamebreaking or often major. A lot of my personal complaints are for lower levels of the game which were simply not coded for by the devs. The game really isn't in a terrible state, it is better than FM23. I really don't understand the outrage.

 

 

Hockey scores: No lmao. That's just people gaslighting. Have you played the vanilla version at all?

I really think SI need to come out and just answer basic questions-This a community after all,i keep seeing certain people describe this place as a cesspit of “negativity”,its more frustration because when no one seems to be listening sometimes you gotta speak louder...-Sunlight is the best disinfectant for this "cesspit" in the form of a couple answers from SI

The offside trap has been scrapped-This was asked so many times (with no answer until a day or so ago and again frustration kicks in)Ok is that because there's a workaround when setting up tactics?A football sim with no offside?kinda weird but ok..an explanation would be awesome
Squad building is not going to be patched....ok can you say why?

Player loan problems,youth players not being played,player interactions are all over the place and many other pretty big issues...will these be patched?Every player seems to have the same issues,some are cool with that and enjoy the game,some are not

I've never seen such blowback on any FM released to date...Please Si just interact with us-This game is in people lives and long may it continue so kudos to SI for years of such quality but again the lack of communication is worrying this time for fm24...now we got members turning on each other in the form of accusations of gaslighting,being a moaner,cant play the game,snarky remarks etc....24 has the potential to be the best FM experience(the graphics alone are amazing this version) yet but very far off atm

We all love FM and only want a great experience with it
It seems 30% have little issue,30% are playing with the mod and 30% are playing base game all launching insults now
How are people who have valid criticism of the game supposed to have constructive criticism when there is zero communication?All major bugs have been logged now…

Please disinfect this so called“cesspit” with some sort of dialogue

Have a great new year everyone

Edited January 1 by dannyo666

[whatsupdoc]

10 minutes ago, dannyo666 said:

 

The offsides have been scrapped-This was asked so many times (with no answer until a day or so ago and again frustration kicks in)Ok is that because there's a workaround when setting up tactics?A football sim with no offside?kinda weird but ok..an explanation would be awesome
 

 

By "offsides" do you mean an offside trap? 

Nobody in football has used an offside trap since the early 90s, except occasionally from free kicks where the line is near 18 yards. 

Defenders irl will (or should) automatically form a line without specific tactical instruction to do so. Just via training, time together and having good communicators/organisers. 

[Rodrigogc]

The problem to me is that there's a conflict between what customers expect and what the business thing is about. From a business point of view, they have to be left with bugs/flaws to be fixed for the next version so they have a reason to deliver a new game every year. Okay with that, the problem is that it's been years since FM is all about fixing something in the game to screw another part of the game. They fix ME issues, and screw interactions. Next year they fix interactions, and screw finances, and so on and so forth..

 

Can't speak for others here, but I, personally, would gladly pay for a decent version and keep just paying the same price for only transfer updates for the next 3-5 years, I would have no problem with that. 

 

 

[molsen]

On 28/12/2023 at 22:36, Rodrigogc said:

Such as ?

For instance FM24 being "Kindergarden Manager 2024".

[DolphinSpain]

31 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

By "offsides" do you mean an offside trap? 

Nobody in football has used an offside trap since the early 90s, except occasionally from free kicks where the line is near 18 yards. 

Defenders irl will (or should) automatically form a line without specific tactical instruction to do so. Just via training, time together and having good communicators/organisers. 

I don't fully agree but that's neither here nor there. I'm not asking for an early 90's Arsenal type of offside trap. My question is this, does every team naturally look for an offside where necessary in-game, whther using high-block, mid-block or low-block? Does the percentage of the defenders doing so rise depending on pressing? Are there specific attributes which identify this? Is there an official explanation I can read so I can figure out how to crrate my tactics adequately? Or is it a case of 'we don't know specifically when players will try to play an offside, it's really vague and ambiguous, BUT, teams don't play an offside trap anymore', which again, would be ridiculous.

 

Can anybody give me any further information on this please as I cannot find any info anywhere.

[dannyo666]

51 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

By "offsides" do you mean an offside trap? 

Nobody in football has used an offside trap since the early 90s, except occasionally from free kicks where the line is near 18 yards. 

Defenders irl will (or should) automatically form a line without specific tactical instruction to do so. Just via training, time together and having good communicators/organisers. 

Yes offside trap-Villa are using the trap this season with amazing results so not too sure about the early 90s example...I personally dont use it all the time but with LLM against bigger teams i do....Others have been asking too which i why people are using it to an extent..is there a offside trap already being implemented by your team instructions....i dont know the answer to this....

[whatsupdoc]

10 minutes ago, dannyo666 said:

Yes offside trap-Villa are using the trap this season with amazing results so not too sure about the early 90s example...I personally dont use it all the time but with LLM against bigger teams i do....Others have been asking too which i why people are using it to an extent..is there a offside trap already being implemented by your team instructions....i dont know the answer to this....

If you play a flat back 3/4 with the "step up" instruction does it achieve what you're talking about?

Haven't tested it myself. If it does you'd assume it would rely on mental stats like concentration/tactical familiarity/cohesion.

I guess it's inevitable more teams will play a modern type of offside trap with VAR changing the game. 

Edited January 1 by whatsupdoc

[CrowManager]

1 hour ago, dannyo666 said:

Hockey scores: No lmao. That's just people gaslighting. Have you played the vanilla version at all?

I really think SI need to come out and just answer basic questions-This a community after all,i keep seeing certain people describe this place as a cesspit of “negativity”,its more frustration because when no one seems to be listening sometimes you gotta speak louder...-Sunlight is the best disinfectant for this "cesspit" in the form of a couple answers from SI

The offsides have been scrapped-This was asked so many times (with no answer until a day or so ago and again frustration kicks in)Ok is that because there's a workaround when setting up tactics?A football sim with no offside?kinda weird but ok..an explanation would be awesome
Squad building is not going to be patched....ok can you say why?

Player loan problems,youth players not being played,player interactions are all over the place and many other pretty big issues...will these be patched?Every player seems to have the same issues,some are cool with that and enjoy the game,some are not

I've never seen such blowback on any FM released to date...Please Si just interact with us-This game is in people lives and long may it continue so kudos to SI for years of such quality but again the lack of communication is worrying this time for fm24...now we got members turning on each other in the form of accusations of gaslighting,being a moaner,cant play the game,snarky remarks etc....24 has the potential to be the best FM experience(the graphics alone are amazing this version) yet but very far off atm

We all love FM and only want a great experience with it
It seems 30% have little issue,30% are playing with the mod and 30% are playing base game all launching insults now
How are people who have valid criticism of the game supposed to have constructive criticism when there is zero communication?All major bugs have been logged now…

Please disinfect this so called“cesspit” with some sort of dialogue

Have a great new year everyone

I don't disagree that there should be more contact from the devs. But if you think a couple of answers are going to fix the anger and negativity that's wrong. And that's fine, people are entitled to complain about various things and I do think that there is some legitimate gripes to be had at the seemingly limited pace the game makes progress. But them simply responding to things won't fix it, and on multiple occasions I'd imagine their answer would be something like "In our testing we don't find that to be the case", and the only thing they could try to do to show that is data, which even then, most people wouldn't see. They said why Squad Building isn't going to be patched: "Because we think it's in a good spot" Which in my games, at least youth wise, it is.

Offside trap wasn't scrapped this game as a tactical instruction. It got removed in FM23. I imagine it just got naturally put into defensive tactics because literally every tactic I ever saw in the game prior used it. But I obviously don't know. Regardless highlights being offside is significantly lessened this year. Which I also prefer, I don't have to look at the referee on every single goal like I did in 22 and 23 to make sure it wasn't offside.

I agree that player loans could be higher, but again I am reasonably confident that some of that is on the Devs and some of that is people not loading enough leagues. I can look at Norwich and see 9 players in my save on loan from the main team and 6 from their u21s on loan. That is an outlier, but most teams in the English u21 Premier Division have at least 4 on loan. Again, I think it's low, I can look up Arsenal and Norwich irl and their youth loans are at higher levels. In Arsenal's case, much higher. So it needs to be worked on, I agree. But it is better. And I completely understand some of the annoyances. I agree with some of them. And frankly I'd much rather have had the loan system overhauled rather than stuff like "Squad planning overhaul" and "Intermediaries" and "Set target goals for your players". But I simply disagree that the state of the game is absolutely absymal. 

EDIT: Albeit it's also worth noting that if you add more loans from top teams that can both make the game harder but also easier, as it's now even easier for players to get the best talents on loan. Now there are more pacey strikers available, more physical Center Backs, etc. If the AI does well with this and fights you well, that can go well. But I have to imagine what would actually happen would be the AI snagging most players on loan that players would want and players would complain the AI is targetting and then winning on some battles because it is facing the player. Ergo the thing I noted in my last post where suddenly players you offer get a ton of offers. I'd be curious to see it fwiw, but yeah.

Frankly I prefer the player interactions, not because they're better, but because more realistic to have random players just want to yeet their way out for no reason (cries in Matthew Tkachuk) It's frustrating I think because it's stupid but that's just moving closer to real life. And even then you don't have to follow it. I've had multiple players on my teams whinge at me and change their minds, and multiple who haven't. Sucks. But it's life. But that's personal preference. I do think it's a little silly how much players gang up on others but at the same time I look to my Calgary Flames irl and watch as personal issues have been a large part of them consistently crushing my hopes on them every year. Yeah that's hockey not soccer. But still. 

I also haven't seen such blowback, but part of why I've started commenting on here this year is because I've just seen so much stuff that I am not experiencing and I think that people are turning people away from something, and that's fine, it's an expensive game, but at least make it for the right reasons not flat out say "well there's no youth development/rotation" and I can just go to team after team after team and show that that isn't the case.

I hope they grow their communication as well but yeah.

 

Edited January 1 by CrowManager

[dannyo666]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

If you play a flat back 3/4 with the "step up" instruction does it achieve what you're talking about?

Haven't tested it myself. If it does you'd assume it would rely on mental stats like concentration/tactical familiarity/cohesion.

I guess it's inevitable more teams will play a modern type of offside trap with VAR changing the game. 

I guess step up would help for offside yes...again like you i presume its your team instructions would cause the trap but thats a guess im not sure-its just amazing to see what villa are doing this season with emery.....my point though was more theres a good few posts asking and no one really knew why as some jumped straight from 22 to 24 seeing as it was the last version before the big changes for 25

 

1 hour ago, CrowManager said:

I don't disagree that there should be more contact from the devs. But if you think a couple of answers are going to fix the anger and negativity that's wrong. And that's fine, people are entitled to complain about various things and I do think that there is some legitimate gripes to be had at the seemingly limited pace the game makes progress. But them simply responding to things won't fix it, and on multiple occasions I'd imagine their answer would be something like "In our testing we don't find that to be the case", and the only thing they could try to do to show that is data, which even then, most people wouldn't see. They said why Squad Building isn't going to be patched: "Because we think it's in a good spot" Which in my games, at least youth wise, it is.

Offside trap wasn't scrapped this game as a tactical instruction. It got removed in FM23. I imagine it just got naturally put into defensive tactics because literally every tactic I ever saw in the game prior used it. But I obviously don't know. Regardless highlights being offside is significantly lessened this year. Which I also prefer, I don't have to look at the referee on every single goal like I did in 22 and 23 to make sure it wasn't offside.

I agree that player loans could be higher, but again I am reasonably confident that some of that is on the Devs and some of that is people not loading enough leagues. I can look at Norwich and see 9 players in my save on loan from the main team and 6 from their u21s on loan. That is an outlier, but most teams in the English u21 Premier Division have at least 4 on loan. Again, I think it's low, I can look up Arsenal and Norwich irl and their youth loans are at higher levels. In Arsenal's case, much higher. So it needs to be worked on, I agree. But it is better. And I completely understand some of the annoyances. I agree with some of them. And frankly I'd much rather have had the loan system overhauled rather than stuff like "Squad planning overhaul" and "Intermediaries" and "Set target goals for your players". But I simply disagree that the state of the game is absolutely absymal. 

EDIT: Albeit it's also worth noting that if you add more loans from top teams that can both make the game harder but also easier, as it's now even easier for players to get the best talents on loan. Now there are more pacey strikers available, more physical Center Backs, etc. If the AI does well with this and fights you well, that can go well. But I have to imagine what would actually happen would be the AI snagging most players on loan that players would want and players would complain the AI is targetting and then winning on some battles because it is facing the player. Ergo the thing I noted in my last post where suddenly players you offer get a ton of offers. I'd be curious to see it fwiw, but yeah.

Frankly I prefer the player interactions, not because they're better, but because more realistic to have random players just want to yeet their way out for no reason (cries in Matthew Tkachuk) It's frustrating I think because it's stupid but that's just moving closer to real life. And even then you don't have to follow it. I've had multiple players on my teams whinge at me and change their minds, and multiple who haven't. Sucks. But it's life. But that's personal preference. I do think it's a little silly how much players gang up on others but at the same time I look to my Calgary Flames irl and watch as personal issues have been a large part of them consistently crushing my hopes on them every year. Yeah that's hockey not soccer. But still. 

I also haven't seen such blowback, but part of why I've started commenting on here this year is because I've just seen so much stuff that I am not experiencing and I think that people are turning people away from something, and that's fine, it's an expensive game, but at least make it for the right reasons not flat out say "well there's no youth development/rotation" and I can just go to team after team after team and show that that isn't the case.

I hope they grow their communication as well but yeah.

 

100%,im not saying people dont have the right to vent their gripes with the game..not saying that at all....I just think a bit of dialogue on certain issues  would help a little,certainly not telling anyone to not complain/raise their gripes..So many other franchises have great relations with members and its great to see this when it happens-Everyone wants their voice heard...human nature

[Sunstrikuuu]

5 hours ago, molsen said:

For instance FM24 being "Kindergarden Manager 2024".

Gotta love backups saying things like "there will be consequences for this, I'll make sure of it".  Yeah, there will, and the consequence will be you never play again.

[Iakovenko]

How often do keepers fracture their arms making saves in real life? 

[dzek]

34 minutes ago, Iakovenko said:

How often do keepers fracture their arms making saves in real life? 

Almost every match. Why are you asking?