Total 4-3-3 Football Revolution: Taking Advantage of Changes from FM23 to FM24

[crusadertsar]

Starting With Standard 4-3-3: No Frills, No Whistles

With the FM24 Beta release looming in the next couple of days, I decided to revisit both my fave tactic and one of the favourite saves from FM23. Given the fact that we can now transfer saves from FM23 to FM24, I see it as a tactical preparation of sorts before the start of the new FM24 season. 

I am rather proud of my Braga save from FM23. While not winning any major trophies (aside from a decent collection of Cups) in my 3 seasons with the club, I did manage to define a unique style of play with the Portuguese "Arsenalistas" club. I managed to mold the little Portuguese Arsenal (albeit with "BIG" youth academy pedigree) into some kind of small-budget Barca wannabee. The entertaining, high-tempo pressing attacking football we played solidified our spot in the League's Top 3. In the process, ball possession was not the objective. Not for the sake of pure numbers as some get obsessed with. But to control the ball and have more chances on goal than the opposition. Pure and simple. 

And we developed a simple tactic to achieve this. One that I believe naturally leans towards creating entertaining dominating football. And superior possession simply happens to be the natural side-effect of this. 

 

Again, I rather not get hung up on team instructions. They are not meant to be some kind of magic plug-and-play formula to success. I opted for simple combination of instructions and roles that would make most sense to me.  And to the players under my command. And therefore would give us the best chance to control pitch SPACE in order to achieve MOVEMENT needed to get closer to opposition goal and outscore them. Because that is the nature of the game!

Very standard 4-3-3 will need do several things:

1. Provide tactical width, which can be done very easily via two wingbacks (or fullbacks depending on the quality of your players). Not looking for inverting or shadow movement here. Just simple old-school fullback/wingbacks - keep width, dribble, cross, ect. 
2. Naturally with the wide movement of the fullbacks, you have the striker and the two wide forwards taking advantage of all the space created in the middle of the pitch. So the two wide attackers will cut inside and move into the gaps in the opposition's stretched defensive line. 
3. Use single central striker as the forward focus of attack. For this you will require either a strong tall player to hold up the ball or a more technical well-rounded one to lead the line. Just because you have only one striker here, it's always best to have one who is as well-rounded in both attack and support as possible. 
4. Solid midfield trio, combining three hard-working roles to create, cover/"destroy" and support. The three-men midfield is key to the workings of 4-3-3, so I will definitely come back to discuss it further.
5. Solid no-nonsense centre-back duo. 
6. Pressing high and moving ball up with quick tempo is what 4-3-3 was designed for. Thus all the players will need to meet a certain standard of fitness (pace, stamina, acceleration) relative to their league average.

So this is one of the two tactics I intend to start with in FM24. It worked really well for my Braga side in FM23 so I don't foresee that changing in FM24. Why am  I not worried about the peculiarities of match engine and such, you may ask? It's simple. Because this tactic attempts to recreate very simple movements and role combinations that make sense whether you are playing in FM21 or FM24. No Pep-esque inverted wingbacks or wide attackers switching from running wide and cutting inside. Just a very basic 4-3-3 that is proven to work. And in my next update I intend to show another variation of this same tactic which I intend to use in my all new save in FM24. This time with another Youth Academy Giant, although much further east than Braga. 

TO BE CONTINUED ...

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Mik_Fe]

I follow this interesting thread!!

[Skywalk3r83]

Things you love to see/read! Looking forward to the rest of the content. 

[Rashidi]

The BWM is also one of my go to destroyer roles in central midfield it works so well in the final third, and, with the right player winning the ball there it can initiate brilliant counters. Interesting how you paired it with an Inverted winger who could be classed as a more creative role. It’s a very good pairing.

[crusadertsar]

29 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

The BWM is also one of my go to destroyer roles in central midfield it works so well in the final third, and, with the right player winning the ball there it can initiate brilliant counters. Interesting how you paired it with an Inverted winger who could be classed as a more creative role. It’s a very good pairing.

Yes! It wasn't a coincidence  I like how BWM won't push as high as a role like BBM or Mezzala, leaving more space for my more creative attacker (IW). And more space is exactly what creative supporting players need. So that's why on the opposite wing I paired more attacking wing role with a more dynamic BBM. Box-to-Box midfielder will push higher up (it also has added get forward instruction) and give better support to my IF(A) by staying closer to him.

Anyway that's the idea! And i mostly gleaned it over the years from reading your excellent Book of Roles 

Edited October 16, 2023 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

How to Craft Your 433 for Total Control of the Ball (and NOT wasting it on crosses)

Introducing The Tactic - Made Specifically for FM24

The goal of the following tactic is not to dominate possession for possession's sake alone. Rather it is to make the best chances and not spam countless low-chance crosses. It's also not meant to be a counter-attacking tactic to surprise your opposition with pace. Instead it is meant to give the best chance of winning for a dominant team in the top-half of the league. A team like Fenerbahce in Turkey for instance. For team like this, 433 is really an ideal tactic because it allows them to exert control over the field. This is because of how the players are positioned and how they move into new positions once the play is under way (Positional Play if you will).

To demonstrate just how easy you can employ Positional Play in FM24, I made a few changes from my earlier tactic to showcase how the roles of Inverted Wingback, Inverted Fullback, Mezzala, RPM (or AP in CM strata) can now aid you in dominating the pitch and exerting control over your opposition. Because in football, those who control the space over which the game is played also control the game.

I will be referring to this helpful guide (link just below) released by SI in order to better explain some of the changes in the basic functioning of the above mentioned roles and how they can make your own 433 tactic better. 

https://www.footballmanager.com/features/truer-football-motion-match-authenticity-positional-play?utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=match+blog

I strongly recommend reading that handy little guide (written by member of SI team no less) for those who want to start employing simple concepts of Positional Play to make your 433 more effective in FM24. The formation used in the guide is not 433, but the concepts are very easily translatable to 433 as I will show you shortly in my own tactic below. 

It is a rather simple tactic. I actually used the foundation of the Tiki Taka Preset for most of my team instructions and roles.  It has been modified especially to take advantage of the new inverted role behavior in FM24. I highly recommend this Preset to those not comfortable creating their own tactic. Starting with a Tactic Preset is a great way to create your very 1st FM tactic. I made a few important changes however. The increase in Team Mentality from Positive > Attacking is meant to give the tactic more offensive edge and make it closer to Vertical Tiki Taka style without necessarily losing the ability to control the ball. We don't want direct, attacking football here. Therefore, to mitigate the more risk-taking behavior of my players I only used two attacking roles and more than a few specific instructions (such as Work Ball into Box and Hold Position). The interesting combination of these and the Attacking Team Mentality will hopefully encourage the team to move the ball up the field with a purpose (rather than getting slowed down in a thousand sideways passes ala Spain 2012) but also not give it away in low-chance crosses and long balls. That's the main objective here - creating Possession with Intent. 

Trend of The Times: Attacking in 3-2-5 Shape

From this point on, I will use a few quotes from the SI FM24 preview guide to explain my role choices and how they are meant to function in the tactic.

The 3-2-5 shape in build-up and attack has been popularized by the current managers such as Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp. It has been proven to be an effective way to both maintain possession and transition into attack. The success of both Pep and Klopp in recent years shows just how effective the 3-2-5 shape can be (especially when coupled with 433 formation). Due to the focus on inverted wingback and fullback roles the following guide is meant to more closely reflect the way that Pep utilizes the 3-2-5 at Man City. But mind you my tactic is not meant to be an accurate recreation of Pep's Man City tactics in recent years. Rather it is loosely inspired tribute to Pep's great tactical acumen. 

You cannot have Pep Guardiola tactic without at least a few "inverted" roles like Inverted Wingers or Inverted Wingbacks. He may not have invented these roles but he sure as heck revolutionized them over the years of managing Barcelona, Bayern and Manchester City. They are central to his very own Positional Play tactical system. The main idea of which is that every player needs to be positioned in a way that every area of the pitch is covered. And when one player moves from one position, another one has to move into his place. It's something that Pep learned from his Barcelona Mentor Johan Cruijff. An idea that originated in Dutch Total Football and which passed naturally from mentor to pupil. So to this day, thankfully Total Football lives on due to managers like Pep Guardiola. 

 

The big change in FM24 that has been implemented to recreate Position Play (and as a result Total Football) is rooted in movement and rotation of certain roles. Now you have roles that are coded to move from one tactical strata to another (such as from FB to CB). In FM23 such position rotations were partially possible but were never guaranteed and often required complicated combinations of team and individual player instructions. Now they can be achieved via a simple role selection. However, there are a few things that one must still keep in mind. Such as knowing which roles work well together to create such positioning and movement. That is what the above-mentioned SI guide talks about and what I will try to explain in my own tactic. 

The 3-2-5 shape in attack starts with its 3-2 build-up. That is even though the 433 formation starts with 2 centrebacks on paper, as the formation moves into attack, a third centreback is added to give it better defensive stability and allow more freedom in transition and attack. At the same time another player moves into defensive midfield to give better link-up between defence and attack. This is key in building from the back that is central to any Total Football system/

In my 433 tactic, the two fullbacks are required to invert and contribute to the creation of 3-2-5 shape. Firstly, we start with the Inverted Fullback. It's actually a completely new role added in FM24, and which only comes with Defend duty. According to SI guide "This new role enables you to experiment with three-at-the-back building shapes while defending in a back four, something that many of the world’s top teams are currently doing. It also frees up someone else in your backline to move up into midfield."

 

Because it is a role that spends a good amount of its playing time in helping central defence, it should possess the attributes of a natural CB such as Jumping Reach, Positioning, Tackling, Heading and Marking. But at the same time he should have better technical attributes like Dribbling, First Touch, Passing and Technique. This is because, he will often be the first player receiving the ball from your Keeper and then helping to move it up from the defence to midfield. This is even more the case for your Inverted Wingback. But I believe that Inverted Fullback should be rather technical too. And not just a simple No-Nonsense Centreback who boots the ball long the moment opposition gets close to him.

 

So in FM24, the Inverted Fullback role has been coded to rotate from his starting FB position to a central CB position during possession. But this is only the 1st step in creating 3-2 Build UP in a typical 433 formation. The other piece of the puzzle comes from the Inverted Wingback on the opposite flank. He is coded to rotate from his starting FB or WB position to a DM position to position himself next to a Defensive Midfielder already there. This rotation is possible in both formations with but a single DM (such as 433) or 2 DMs (4-2-3-1 DM formation). while the IFB(D) joins the centrebacks, it gives someone else in the back four (aka Inverted Wingback) the freedom to move into midfield and act as a more supporting role there. And thus the 3-2 Build UP is created!

While the role requirements for the Inverted Wingback have not really changed in FM24, the ease with which he now achieves his ideal behavior is much better than it ever has been in any FM before. The SI guide says that IWB is "another role with much more intelligent and responsive positioning in FM24". Naturally, this leads to some really nice Total Football-inspired Possession Tactics. And you don't need to be some kind of tactical wizkid to achieve them. As long as you have the right team of players for the job. Especially by pairing your IWB with the right player in defensive midfield. Now in FM24 (and I can now vouch about this from my current experience with BETA) "defensive midfielders are more suited to recognizing this movement of the Inverted Wing-Back. This means that when an Inverted Wing-Back pushes up, a deeper-lying defensive midfielder on their side will move across to form a two-man pairing. This adaptation is very similar to the way Rodri tends to dovetail with the full-back on his side of the pitch at Manchester City."

 

Above is one example shown by SI writer to showcase how the new IWB/DM/IFB interplay functions when used by a high level team. Obviously results might be different for a lower division club. But results such as these should be achievable by a club like Fenerbahce. 

For example this is the player I'm currently using as my IWB. He is by no means a superstar but nevertheless has the attributes to control the ball well and function as a decent midfield support. 

 

TO BE CONTINUED: Engineering The Midfield and Progressing into 3-2-5 Attack

Edited October 22, 2023 by crusadertsar

[bosque]

Nice write-up! But I'm not sure about the Jumping and Heading as attributes needed for the IFB role. It's true he will be always defending but during the defensive organization phase he will be positioned wide. And during defensive transition you don't have many scenarios involving crosses

[crusadertsar]

38 minutes ago, bosque said:

Nice write-up! But I'm not sure about the Jumping and Heading as attributes needed for the IFB role. It's true he will be always defending but during the defensive organization phase he will be positioned wide. And during defensive transition you don't have many scenarios involving crosses

They are both highlighted as recommended attributes. Not required but helpful. Makes sense as he will position centrally next to the other centrebacks when in possession. You need someone capable of stopping crosses during opposition counterattack right after you lose possession. The IFB might not have enough time to get back into his defensive wide position. Especially when you play with high defensive line.

Also another benefit is having another player attacking the near or far post during corners.

Edited October 23, 2023 by crusadertsar

[bosque]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

They are both highlighted as recommended attributes. Not required but helpful. Makes sense as he will position centrally next to the other centrebacks when in possession. You need someone capable of stopping crosses during opposition counterattack right after you lose possession. The IFB might not have enough time to get back into his defensive wide position. Especially when you play with high defensive line.

Also another benefit is having another player attacking the near or far post during corners.

It's true, it makes sense that way 

[crusadertsar]

Additional important note that I forgot to mention. Is that I do lower Team Mentality down to "Positive" at times especially when playing AWAY from home against a decent team. Or for those big European games against other "big" teams like AC Milan ect. 

[04texag]

Glad to see you writing here, love your threads! 

[Diverisma158]

hello! amazing thread! there are PI or just the wingers

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, Diverisma158 said:

hello! amazing thread! there are PI or just the wingers

None so far. Except for the ones you see for the Left IW. Thanks! More to come, enjoy 

[saware]

22 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

How to Craft Your 433 for Total Control of the Ball (and NOT wasting it on crosses)

Introducing The Tactic - Made Specifically for FM24

The goal of the following tactic is not to dominate possession for possession's sake alone. Rather it is to make the best chances and not spam countless low-chance crosses. It's also not meant to be a counter-attacking tactic to surprise your opposition with pace. Instead it is meant to give the best chance of winning for a dominant team in the top-half of the league. A team like Fenerbahce in Turkey for instance. For team like this, 433 is really an ideal tactic because it allows them to exert control over the field. This is because of how the players are positioned and how they move into new positions once the play is under way (Positional Play if you will).

To demonstrate just how easy you can employ Positional Play in FM24, I made a few changes from my earlier tactic to showcase how the roles of Inverted Wingback, Inverted Fullback, Mezzala, RPM (or AP in CM strata) can now aid you in dominating the pitch and exerting control over your opposition. Because in football, those who control the space over which the game is played also control the game.

I will be referring to this helpful guide (link just below) released by SI in order to better explain some of the changes in the basic functioning of the above mentioned roles and how they can make your own 433 tactic better. 

https://www.footballmanager.com/features/truer-football-motion-match-authenticity-positional-play?utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=match+blog

I strongly recommend reading that handy little guide (written by member of SI team no less) for those who want to start employing simple concepts of Positional Play to make your 433 more effective in FM24. The formation used in the guide is not 433, but the concepts are very easily translatable to 433 as I will show you shortly in my own tactic below. 

It is a rather simple tactic. I actually used the foundation of the Tiki Taka Preset for most of my team instructions and roles.  It has been modified especially to take advantage of the new inverted role behavior in FM24. I highly recommend this Preset to those not comfortable creating their own tactic. Starting with a Tactic Preset is a great way to create your very 1st FM tactic. I made a few important changes however. The increase in Team Mentality from Positive > Attacking is meant to give the tactic more offensive edge and make it closer to Vertical Tiki Taka style without necessarily losing the ability to control the ball. We don't want direct, attacking football here. Therefore, to mitigate the more risk-taking behavior of my players I only used two attacking roles and more than a few specific instructions (such as Work Ball into Box and Hold Position). The interesting combination of these and the Attacking Team Mentality will hopefully encourage the team to move the ball up the field with a purpose (rather than getting slowed down in a thousand sideways passes ala Spain 2012) but also not give it away in low-chance crosses and long balls. That's the main objective here - creating Possession with Intent. 

Trend of The Times: Attacking in 3-2-5 Shape

From this point on, I will use a few quotes from the SI FM24 preview guide to explain my role choices and how they are meant to function in the tactic.

The 3-2-5 shape in build-up and attack has been popularized by the current managers such as Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp. It has been proven to be an effective way to both maintain possession and transition into attack. The success of both Pep and Klopp in recent years shows just how effective the 3-2-5 shape can be (especially when coupled with 433 formation). Due to the focus on inverted wingback and fullback roles the following guide is meant to more closely reflect the way that Pep utilizes the 3-2-5 at Man City. But mind you my tactic is not meant to be an accurate recreation of Pep's Man City tactics in recent years. Rather it is loosely inspired tribute to Pep's great tactical acumen. 

You cannot have Pep Guardiola tactic without at least a few "inverted" roles like Inverted Wingers or Inverted Wingbacks. He may not have invented these roles but he sure as heck revolutionized them over the years of managing Barcelona, Bayern and Manchester City. They are central to his very own Positional Play tactical system. The main idea of which is that every player needs to be positioned in a way that every area of the pitch is covered. And when one player moves from one position, another one has to move into his place. It's something that Pep learned from his Barcelona Mentor Johan Cruijff. An idea that originated in Dutch Total Football and which passed naturally from mentor to pupil. So to this day, thankfully Total Football lives on due to managers like Pep Guardiola. 

 

The big change in FM24 that has been implemented to recreate Position Play (and as a result Total Football) is rooted in movement and rotation of certain roles. Now you have roles that are coded to move from one tactical strata to another (such as from FB to CB). In FM23 such position rotations were partially possible but were never guaranteed and often required complicated combinations of team and individual player instructions. Now they can be achieved via a simple role selection. However, there are a few things that one must still keep in mind. Such as knowing which roles work well together to create such positioning and movement. That is what the above-mentioned SI guide talks about and what I will try to explain in my own tactic. 

The 3-2-5 shape in attack starts with its 3-2 build-up. That is even though the 433 formation starts with 2 centrebacks on paper, as the formation moves into attack, a third centreback is added to give it better defensive stability and allow more freedom in transition and attack. At the same time another player moves into defensive midfield to give better link-up between defence and attack. This is key in building from the back that is central to any Total Football system/

In my 433 tactic, the two fullbacks are required to invert and contribute to the creation of 3-2-5 shape. Firstly, we start with the Inverted Fullback. It's actually a completely new role added in FM24, and which only comes with Defend duty. According to SI guide "This new role enables you to experiment with three-at-the-back building shapes while defending in a back four, something that many of the world’s top teams are currently doing. It also frees up someone else in your backline to move up into midfield."

 

Because it is a role that spends a good amount of its playing time in helping central defence, it should possess the attributes of a natural CB such as Jumping Reach, Positioning, Tackling, Heading and Marking. But at the same time he should have better technical attributes like Dribbling, First Touch, Passing and Technique. This is because, he will often be the first player receiving the ball from your Keeper and then helping to move it up from the defence to midfield. This is even more the case for your Inverted Wingback. But I believe that Inverted Fullback should be rather technical too. And not just a simple No-Nonsense Centreback who boots the ball long the moment opposition gets close to him.

 

So in FM24, the Inverted Fullback role has been coded to rotate from his starting FB position to a central CB position during possession. But this is only the 1st step in creating 3-2 Build UP in a typical 433 formation. The other piece of the puzzle comes from the Inverted Wingback on the opposite flank. He is coded to rotate from his starting FB or WB position to a DM position to position himself next to a Defensive Midfielder already there. This rotation is possible in both formations with but a single DM (such as 433) or 2 DMs (4-2-3-1 DM formation). while the IFB(D) joins the centrebacks, it gives someone else in the back four (aka Inverted Wingback) the freedom to move into midfield and act as a more supporting role there. And thus the 3-2 Build UP is created!

While the role requirements for the Inverted Wingback have not really changed in FM24, the ease with which he now achieves his ideal behavior is much better than it ever has been in any FM before. The SI guide says that IWB is "another role with much more intelligent and responsive positioning in FM24". Naturally, this leads to some really nice Total Football-inspired Possession Tactics. And you don't need to be some kind of tactical wizkid to achieve them. As long as you have the right team of players for the job. Especially by pairing your IWB with the right player in defensive midfield. Now in FM24 (and I can now vouch about this from my current experience with BETA) "defensive midfielders are more suited to recognizing this movement of the Inverted Wing-Back. This means that when an Inverted Wing-Back pushes up, a deeper-lying defensive midfielder on their side will move across to form a two-man pairing. This adaptation is very similar to the way Rodri tends to dovetail with the full-back on his side of the pitch at Manchester City."

 

Above is one example shown by SI writer to showcase how the new IWB/DM/IFB interplay functions when used by a high level team. Obviously results might be different for a lower division club. But results such as these should be achievable by a club like Fenerbahce. 

For example this is the player I'm currently using as my IWB. He is by no means a superstar but nevertheless has the attributes to control the ball well and function as a decent midfield support. 

 

TO BE CONTINUED: Engineering The Midfield and Progressing into 3-2-5 Attack

Maybe jumping the gun here as it might feature in your next write up but do you not end up being too narrow? I know an attack mentality starts a bit wider but your team instruction to play narrower counteracts that, & then the wingers are coming inside with no-one going down the outside for full back positions.

On FM23 I played on positive mentality with inverted wingers or inside forwards but had width from wing backs or attacking full backs & had success in creating an attractive playing style that was relatively successful & I enjoyed watching. Assuming it’s possible to do the same again but would like to try something a bit different.

[crusadertsar]

37 minutes ago, saware said:

Maybe jumping the gun here as it might feature in your next write up but do you not end up being too narrow? I know an attack mentality starts a bit wider but your team instruction to play narrower counteracts that, & then the wingers are coming inside with no-one going down the outside for full back positions.

On FM23 I played on positive mentality with inverted wingers or inside forwards but had width from wing backs or attacking full backs & had success in creating an attractive playing style that was relatively successful & I enjoyed watching. Assuming it’s possible to do the same again but would like to try something a bit different.

In my experience almost every geggenpress/total football tactic I tried and which was successful for me was a quite narrow. For this style of football to work you really want your players to be close together to hunt in packs and to outnumber/bully opponents in important areas of the pitch. The roles themselves will give width. Especially the way that IW and IF roles work in FM24 to stay a bit wider to give more chance for overloads to happen with central midfielders attacking from deep.

Edited October 23, 2023 by crusadertsar

[PequenoGenio]

What an great piece of guide.
Can´t wait for more

[ultrAslan]

Amazing writing! Will help me when I start a save on FM24, but feeling really sad why you used fenerbahce instead of Galatasaray haha 

[crusadertsar]

3-2-5 = WM Shape: Learning From History

With both of my fullbacks tacking in to make solid 3-2 shape at the base of the formation, it should allow for more freedom for for the rest of my roles. This got me thinking why not make the midfield more more creative and more dangerous. Afterall in the old WM tactic as it was introduced by Herbert Chapman, you had two "inside forwards" in the middle. In modern football, its the #8 attacking midfielder that goes here. And this more progressive role is probably the most important element of the modern 433 formation. 

But lets continue with the example of Herbert Chapman's WM. When it was first introduced by him at Arsenal in 1930s, it was a new and in some ways "eccentric" tactic which was frowned upon by contemporaries at the time. But it was crafted to take advantage of the new offside rule changes and as such had a distinct advantage against other popular tactics at the time. Or I should probably say more precisely lack of tactics. Chapman was a real football tactics "pioneer", in every sense of that word. Because his WM was probably the first real tactical innovation in history of football. 

Chapman's WM went against how most teams played at the time. And they all played relatively similar. Not because there was a dominant tactic but because they viewed defending as something "beneath" a footballer. Attacking, running and dribbling was where the glory was. Hence most teams in Europe used 2-3-5 formation. Where there were 5 forwards and only two defenders (or fullbacks as they were known back then). This was the very first tactic if you will, The Pyramid formation. Except it was not really a tactic as once they were in control almost everyone attacked. The only transition being a fast counterattack. 

Herbert Chapman - well-dressed happily smiling chap on the far left.

To keep the story short, Herbert Chapman who became the manager of Arsenal in 1925. While manager of Arsenal he envisioned a new way of playing where each player followed distinct a role, much akin to how things are in modern football. He also wanted to counter the popular Pyramid tactic by moving the centrehalf (player between the two halfbacks) from midfield down to defence to act as a very first centreback. And the rest as they say is history. 

This strategy of using 3 at the back was to counter the threat offered by the 5 forwards of a 2-3-5 Pyramid formation. And this move was met with much ridicule and opposition (before everyone realized how effective it was to be). Largely because the addition of an extra man in defence was viewed as a negative tactic and plainly not a very good idea. Why? Because in Pyramid formation, centrehalf was viewed as the main playmaker of the team, its tactical architect.  It was considered to be a suicidal move at the time, sacrificing the main creative cog of the team and adding an additional player in a position that was popularly considered to be worthless. But Chapman had something else in mind. By shoring up his defence and making it much more difficult for the other team's forwards to break through, he could now afford to give more playmaking duties to the other four players between the defence and attack - The two Inside Forwards and two Halfbacks. The Box Midfield was born!

In a way, Chapman's Arsenal tactic were very simple at the time but also not all that alien to what we today might view as "good" football. He basically wanted his players to defend as a unit, retreat as a unit, invite pressure and hold shape, and hit the opposition on the counter attack when defending. And this was where their midfield advantage came in. Chapman’s teams enjoyed maintaining possession of the ball, and making short simple passes, what at the time became known as "pattern weaving approach". 

The only individual instructions: "stay wider" and "get forward" on IW, "hold position" on DM and "close down more" on AF, Mez and IWB (because he is mainly operating in the midfield) to set up a partial split block.

 

The simple approach is something I decided to emulate as well in my own ever-evolving 433 tactic. In this latest iteration I decided to strip down some of the instructions and just allow the roles and the shape to dictate how the tactic should run. And the results have been not at all bad! At least when it comes to chance creation. So far after 2 months with the tactic, we starting to play some very entertaining, aesthetically-pleasing attacking football. Which is exactly what the Board and fans want to see at Braga in the Portuguese League. It's much too early to say how good this tactic can be but I am nevertheless happy to see that a simplistic approach can work so well in FM24. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Sinbad7104]

5 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

3-2-5 = WM Shape: Learning From History

With both of my fullbacks tacking in to make solid 3-2 shape at the base of the formation, it should allow for more freedom for for the rest of my roles. This got me thinking why not make the midfield more more creative and more dangerous. Afterall in the old WM tactic as it was introduced by Herbert Chapman, you had two "inside forwards" in the middle. In modern football, its the #8 attacking midfielder that goes here. And this more progressive role is probably the most important element of the modern 433 formation. 

But lets continue with the example of Herbert Chapman's WM. When it was first introduced by him at Arsenal in 1930s, it was a new and in some ways "eccentric" tactic which was frowned upon by contemporaries at the time. But it was crafted to take advantage of the new offside rule changes and as such had a distinct advantage against other popular tactics at the time. Or I should probably say more precisely lack of tactics. Chapman was a real football tactics "pioneer", in every sense of that word. Because his WM was probably the first real tactical innovation in history of football. 

Chapman's WM went against how most teams played at the time. And they all played relatively similar. Not because there was a dominant tactic but because they viewed defending as something "beneath" a footballer. Attacking, running and dribbling was where the glory was. Hence most teams in Europe used 2-3-5 formation. Where there were 5 forwards and only two defenders (or fullbacks as they were known back then). This was the very first tactic if you will, The Pyramid formation. Except it was not really a tactic as once they were in control almost everyone attacked. The only transition being a fast counterattack. 

Herbert Chapman - well-dressed happily smiling chap on the far left.

To keep the story short, Herbert Chapman who became the manager of Arsenal in 1925. While manager of Arsenal he envisioned a new way of playing where each player followed distinct a role, much akin to how things are in modern football. He also wanted to counter the popular Pyramid tactic by moving the centrehalf (player between the two halfbacks) from midfield down to defence to act as a very first centreback. And the rest as they say is history. 

This strategy of using 3 at the back was to counter the threat offered by the 5 forwards of a 2-3-5 Pyramid formation. And this move was met with much ridicule and opposition (before everyone realized how effective it was to be). Largely because the addition of an extra man in defence was viewed as a negative tactic and plainly not a very good idea. Why? Because in Pyramid formation, centrehalf was viewed as the main playmaker of the team, its tactical architect.  It was considered to be a suicidal move at the time, sacrificing the main creative cog of the team and adding an additional player in a position that was popularly considered to be worthless. But Chapman had something else in mind. By shoring up his defence and making it much more difficult for the other team's forwards to break through, he could now afford to give more playmaking duties to the other four players between the defence and attack - The two Inside Forwards and two Halfbacks. The Box Midfield was born!

In a way, Chapman's Arsenal tactic were very simple at the time but also not all that alien to what we today might view as "good" football. He basically wanted his players to defend as a unit, retreat as a unit, invite pressure and hold shape, and hit the opposition on the counter attack when defending. And this was where their midfield advantage came in. Chapman’s teams enjoyed maintaining possession of the ball, and making short simple passes, what at the time became known as "pattern weaving approach". 

The only individual instructions: "stay wider" and "get forward" on IW, "hold position" on DM and "close down more" on AF, Mez and IWB (because he is mainly operating in the midfield) to set up a partial split block.

 

The simple approach is something I decided to emulate as well in my own ever-evolving 433 tactic. In this latest iteration I decided to strip down some of the instructions and just allow the roles and the shape to dictate how the tactic should run. And the results have been not at all bad! At least when it comes to chance creation. So far after 2 months with the tactic, we starting to play some very entertaining, aesthetically-pleasing attacking football. Which is exactly what the Board and fans want to see at Braga in the Portuguese League. It's much too early to say how good this tactic can be but I am nevertheless happy to see that a simplistic approach can work so well in FM24. 

Some of the football this plays 

[Kevinmatt]

"The only individual instructions: "stay wider" and "get forward" on IW, "hold position" on DM and "close down more" on AF, Mez and IWB (because he is mainly operating in the midfield) to set up a partial split block."

 

Is that also including the ones in previous posts? If possible can you list them all..

 

Thanks great insight:)

[crusadertsar]

52 minutes ago, Kevinmatt said:

"The only individual instructions: "stay wider" and "get forward" on IW, "hold position" on DM and "close down more" on AF, Mez and IWB (because he is mainly operating in the midfield) to set up a partial split block."

 

Is that also including the ones in previous posts? If possible can you list them all..

 

Thanks great insight:)

Yeah those are the only ones. I made a few adjustments from the original tactic I posted in my first post.

[Kevinmatt]

4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah those are the only ones. I made a few adjustments from the original tactic I posted in my first post.

Thanks

 

so we can disregard those from the earlier post? Great Thanks

 

[Smigo08]

Nice Post, i was looking at something last night after coming home from the LFC game,  what i noticed was when LFC had possession although more of a 2242 in possession

 

1. LEFT SIDE - Gravenberch would be high and wide with Jota narrow, had this set up as AP (stay wide) IW (stay narrow), with the LB offering width also - TI had overlap on the left. 

2. RIGHT SIDE - Salah would hold the width and Szbo would also be very wide almost on the same line as Salah, he would offer the underlap, had this set up Salah - W (stay wide), Szbo - WP (stay narrow) - TI had underlap, Trent as the IWB

3. CENTRAL -  2 BPD,  RCB with stay wide, Used Alexis Mccalister as the DLP.

 

some of the movements and the goals that came replicate very much how its supposed to, wonder if you could look at what roles i have mentioned above to see if you can make this better?

 

i'm not sure if anyone has set a a CM on WP on sit narrow to occupy the HS rather than using the MEZ.

 

just an idea, would be nice to see your take on this.

[jdubsnz]

On 30/10/2023 at 04:55, Kevinmatt said:

"The only individual instructions: "stay wider" and "get forward" on IW, "hold position" on DM and "close down more" on AF, Mez and IWB (because he is mainly operating in the midfield) to set up a partial split block."

 

Is that also including the ones in previous posts? If possible can you list them all..

 

Thanks great insight:)

where is the option to select 'close down more'?

[crusadertsar]

4 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

where is the option to select 'close down more'?

In the player's individual instructions screen. Top left.

[Kevinmatt]

14 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

where is the option to select 'close down more'?

Select Player then trigger Press to Max

[jdubsnz]

11 hours ago, Kevinmatt said:

Select Player then trigger Press to Max

thank you!

[jdubsnz]

21 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

In the player's individual instructions screen. Top left.

thank you. might have missed something earlier, what pressing do you have for the team?

[crusadertsar]

13 hours ago, Kevinmatt said:

Select Player then trigger Press to Max

No not to max, only one level of intensity up. 

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

No not to max, only one level of intensity up. 

Okay I need to dispell all the confusion haha. I use split block. Meaning I tell only a couple of players to trigger press. Mainly its Mezzala, central striker and two wide attackers. I use this in order to reduce tactic's overall intensity and to better maintain its shape. @Kevinmatt And no it's NOT on max. Only one notch higher. I don't think you can even select max when using Positive team mentality.

[mikcheck]

@crusadertsar I was going to ask about the width on the left side, since you have a IFB and a IW, but then I noticed that you instruct the IW to stay wider. Even though he has the inclination to cut inside, he still keep the width without the ball, so that make sense to me.

Edited November 2, 2023 by mikcheck

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

@crusadertsar I was going to ask about the width on the left side, since you have a IFB and a IW, but then I noticed that you instruct the IW to stay wider. Even though he has the inclination to cut inside, he still keep the width withouth the ball, so that make sense to me.

Yeah, I usually prefer IW to Winger in most of my tactics that are not meant to be too direct. Just don't like winger's behavior of constantly crossing from the byline. Occasional cut in from IW is not so bad. IW still  can keep the width very well, especially if you use player with same dominant foot as the flank he is on and to stay wider. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Fieldsy]

@crusadertsar Also noticed different to your past tactics is your not using shorter passing?  Is that to get possession to be more penetrative?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Fieldsy

[mikcheck]

4 horas atrás, crusadertsar disse:

Yeah, I usually prefer IW to Winger in most of my tactics that are not meant to be too direct. Just don't like winger's behavior of constantly crossing from the byline. Occasional cut in from IW is not so bad. IW still  can keep the width very well, especially if you use player with same dominant foot as the flank he is on and to stay wider. 

Do you still use Ricardo Horta there? He's right  footed, isn't he?

Btw still having a good run with the tactic?

[crusadertsar]

33 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

Do you still use Ricardo Horta there? He's right  footed, isn't he?

Btw still having a good run with the tactic?

He has actually become my primary striker. He is that good and well rounded. And more consistent than Abel Ruiz. But I do still Ricardo there sometimes. I believe his left foot is strong or reasonable. Not weak. I would not use someone with weak foot on the same side as he is playing on. Not unless I wanted him to cut in on his dominant foot. 

[PequenoGenio]

Your AF still take part on the build up or is more like a goalscorer?

[jc577]

6 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Just don't like winger's behavior of constantly crossing from the byline

I've noticed this too. Even though now we can tell the winger to cut inside, the role is still hardcoded to get down the flank and is a bit too aggressive (dribble heavy) for my liking. 

[crusadertsar]

56 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

Your AF still take part on the build up or is more like a goalscorer?

Depending who I use. Ruiz is of course less creative than Ricardo Horta. But both contribute to build to different degrees. When I notice either is more isolated or passes from midfield not connecting then I put either one as DLF (A).

[kusalmed]

Nice write-up! But I'm not sure about the Jumping and Heading as attributes needed for the IFB role.  indigo card

jjsploit.click
 

Edited November 15, 2023 by kusalmed

[crusadertsar]

2 minutes ago, kusalmed said:

Nice write-up! But I'm not sure about the Jumping and Heading as attributes needed for the IFB role. 

They are recommended for the role by the game. And I believe they do give a nice bonus especially in narrow system and to protect against counters. Look at my previous response to similar question above.

 

[kopfan1977]

On 28/10/2023 at 13:43, crusadertsar said:

3-2-5 = WM Shape: Learning From History

With both of my fullbacks tacking in to make solid 3-2 shape at the base of the formation, it should allow for more freedom for for the rest of my roles. This got me thinking why not make the midfield more more creative and more dangerous. Afterall in the old WM tactic as it was introduced by Herbert Chapman, you had two "inside forwards" in the middle. In modern football, its the #8 attacking midfielder that goes here. And this more progressive role is probably the most important element of the modern 433 formation. 

But lets continue with the example of Herbert Chapman's WM. When it was first introduced by him at Arsenal in 1930s, it was a new and in some ways "eccentric" tactic which was frowned upon by contemporaries at the time. But it was crafted to take advantage of the new offside rule changes and as such had a distinct advantage against other popular tactics at the time. Or I should probably say more precisely lack of tactics. Chapman was a real football tactics "pioneer", in every sense of that word. Because his WM was probably the first real tactical innovation in history of football. 

Chapman's WM went against how most teams played at the time. And they all played relatively similar. Not because there was a dominant tactic but because they viewed defending as something "beneath" a footballer. Attacking, running and dribbling was where the glory was. Hence most teams in Europe used 2-3-5 formation. Where there were 5 forwards and only two defenders (or fullbacks as they were known back then). This was the very first tactic if you will, The Pyramid formation. Except it was not really a tactic as once they were in control almost everyone attacked. The only transition being a fast counterattack. 

Herbert Chapman - well-dressed happily smiling chap on the far left.

To keep the story short, Herbert Chapman who became the manager of Arsenal in 1925. While manager of Arsenal he envisioned a new way of playing where each player followed distinct a role, much akin to how things are in modern football. He also wanted to counter the popular Pyramid tactic by moving the centrehalf (player between the two halfbacks) from midfield down to defence to act as a very first centreback. And the rest as they say is history. 

This strategy of using 3 at the back was to counter the threat offered by the 5 forwards of a 2-3-5 Pyramid formation. And this move was met with much ridicule and opposition (before everyone realized how effective it was to be). Largely because the addition of an extra man in defence was viewed as a negative tactic and plainly not a very good idea. Why? Because in Pyramid formation, centrehalf was viewed as the main playmaker of the team, its tactical architect.  It was considered to be a suicidal move at the time, sacrificing the main creative cog of the team and adding an additional player in a position that was popularly considered to be worthless. But Chapman had something else in mind. By shoring up his defence and making it much more difficult for the other team's forwards to break through, he could now afford to give more playmaking duties to the other four players between the defence and attack - The two Inside Forwards and two Halfbacks. The Box Midfield was born!

In a way, Chapman's Arsenal tactic were very simple at the time but also not all that alien to what we today might view as "good" football. He basically wanted his players to defend as a unit, retreat as a unit, invite pressure and hold shape, and hit the opposition on the counter attack when defending. And this was where their midfield advantage came in. Chapman’s teams enjoyed maintaining possession of the ball, and making short simple passes, what at the time became known as "pattern weaving approach". 

The only individual instructions: "stay wider" and "get forward" on IW, "hold position" on DM and "close down more" on AF, Mez and IWB (because he is mainly operating in the midfield) to set up a partial split block.

 

The simple approach is something I decided to emulate as well in my own ever-evolving 433 tactic. In this latest iteration I decided to strip down some of the instructions and just allow the roles and the shape to dictate how the tactic should run. And the results have been not at all bad! At least when it comes to chance creation. So far after 2 months with the tactic, we starting to play some very entertaining, aesthetically-pleasing attacking football. Which is exactly what the Board and fans want to see at Braga in the Portuguese League. It's much too early to say how good this tactic can be but I am nevertheless happy to see that a simplistic approach can work so well in FM24. 

Loving the look on this. Set up is how I've been playing anyway. So using that as a base and added your instructions onto it. I also kept one or two of my own. Especially for both CM being told to tackle harder. And kept tackle harder and mark tighter on the RB position. Will see how this goes.

 

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, kopfan1977 said:

Loving the look on this. Set up is how I've been playing anyway. So using that as a base and added your instructions onto it. I also kept one or two of my own. Especially for both CM being told to tackle harder. And kept tackle harder and mark tighter on the RB position. Will see how this goes.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Might be good instructions to try myself as well. 

[newsuzanoebok]

Em 30/10/2023 em 07:10, Smigo08 disse:

Nice Post, i was looking at something last night after coming home from the LFC game,  what i noticed was when LFC had possession although more of a 2242 in possession

 

1. LEFT SIDE - Gravenberch would be high and wide with Jota narrow, had this set up as AP (stay wide) IW (stay narrow), with the LB offering width also - TI had overlap on the left. 

2. RIGHT SIDE - Salah would hold the width and Szbo would also be very wide almost on the same line as Salah, he would offer the underlap, had this set up Salah - W (stay wide), Szbo - WP (stay narrow) - TI had underlap, Trent as the IWB

3. CENTRAL -  2 BPD,  RCB with stay wide, Used Alexis Mccalister as the DLP.

 

some of the movements and the goals that came replicate very much how its supposed to, wonder if you could look at what roles i have mentioned above to see if you can make this better?

 

i'm not sure if anyone has set a a CM on WP on sit narrow to occupy the HS rather than using the MEZ.

 

just an idea, would be nice to see your take on this.

hey man, nice idea, but, have you tested with mezzalas? like szobos and graven as mezzalas, i think they can get wide but still cover the center field

[Collectivism]

Really enjoyed this write up. Personally, I've always enjoyed tiki-taka over every other style - what specific instructions or role changes would you recommend to push this one a little further towards fast paced, one touch triangular football?

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Collectivism said:

Really enjoyed this write up. Personally, I've always enjoyed tiki-taka over every other style - what specific instructions or role changes would you recommend to push this one a little further towards fast paced, one touch triangular football?

Me too. Fast pace and shortest Passing for one. And maybe dribble less and low crosses .

Edited November 5, 2023 by crusadertsar

[silentventus]

I love anything 4-3-3, so this is one amazing thread! The new changes to FM24 have been so fun to use. However, I did have one question with something that bugs me, for your two CMs is it important that they have positioning, tackling & marking to be effective in a midfield 3? I’m running a midfield of Partey, Rice and Odegaard but I feel some of my goals always come down Odegaard’s side so I’m not sure if that’s down to his low tackling and positioning scores. 

[latrell]

@crusadertsar  a picture to inspire you