Major Changes for FM22 Touch and Beyond Blog

[DeepLyingForward]

9 hours ago, grade said:

No, we are simply talking.

You raised a valid point. I for one believe if a product looses money for company, it should be cut... unless that product is only product you produce, then you try to fix it or you go bankrupt.

But, my point is, this is important point. How can FMT/Classic, loose any money, if this game mode on Steam, for 9 straight years, was always offered for free with the main game - FM? I mean of those 9 years, 3 of them (2012-2015) you could only choose this game mode, via FM main screen options. Even after that, with FMT becoming independent from FM, FMT was still being offer for free when you bought FM?

If you offer this game mode with FM on Steam, one can assume that the cost of making FMT was part of the cost making FM, like much the editor and in-game editor are.

As for FMT for the iPad/tablet, is bit different story.

FMT although very similar to FM should be considered a separate product. If you think of FMT as a separate product that requires SI resourcing to deliver/maintain then yes it'll cost money to do this. 

It looks like from either a strategic/commercial view (or both) that FMT is no longer viable, this could be down to low player count to (lack of) net profit made selling FMT on tablets. 

FMT still being viable for Nintendo Switch is interesting - they must had sold a lot of units. 

[Loren1983]

hace 43 minutos, Keyzer Soze dijo:

And on top of that, in recent years FMT became almost a "FM without a couple of features". There wasn't, if i recall, any specific new feature developed for FMT. So i assume, i could be wrong, that the FMT cost, at least for PC, must be very low when compare with the revenues.

As for the IOS/Android version, its a completely different ball game. Altough i only play FMT in a tablet android, i can understand more the decision if the revenues aren't giving what SI expected.

That is! 

[Desmond Richardson]

Hey @grade,

I just wanted to follow up on some of the questions you submitted a few pages back which @santy001 has kindly responded to thus far.

Santy is correct - the majority of things can now be achieved within staff responsibilities and in-game preferences. I spoke with another user this week about limiting the number of inbox items they were receiving by utilising the social feed feature. Within this tab you can manage what you would like to follow. This will in turn help reduce your inbox items should you wish. For those items that you may want to keep following you can also set the level of content to your personal preference to tailor your FM experience to your needs.

If you are a PC player, the Xbox Edition will be available to purchase via the Microsoft Store or via Game Pass, while tablet players will be able to stream that game to their devices via Microsoft’s xCloud streaming service (which is available to anyone with a Game Pass Ultimate subscription). It is keyboard and mouse enabled and will provide a more streamlined experience from the get go.

[grade]

1 hour ago, Desmond Richardson said:

Hey @grade,

I just wanted to follow up on some of the questions you submitted a few pages back which @santy001 has kindly responded to thus far.

Santy is correct - the majority of things can now be achieved within staff responsibilities and in-game preferences. I spoke with another user this week about limiting the number of inbox items they were receiving by utilising the social feed feature. Within this tab you can manage what you would like to follow. This will in turn help reduce your inbox items should you wish. For those items that you may want to keep following you can also set the level of content to your personal preference to tailor your FM experience to your needs.

If you are a PC player, the Xbox Edition will be available to purchase via the Microsoft Store or via Game Pass, while tablet players will be able to stream that game to their devices via Microsoft’s xCloud streaming service (which is available to anyone with a Game Pass Ultimate subscription). It is keyboard and mouse enabled and will provide a more streamlined experience from the get go.

Thanks for the reply.

I'm a Mac and Playstation user, so the above solution despite valid to some, it isn't for me and others... unfortunately, the consequences of this decision has left several people out of the equation. I don't think spending money on new console (Xbox or Switch) is a great solution, plus spending 100+ euros for a gaming pass to play on the tablet/iPad. If I was Sir Richardson Branson, this wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not. I already spend enough on PS Plus.

So thanks for responding most of the questions, but not all of them. Specially the one I ask about doing a season in less then 10 hours, even if we do what you suggest.

[kccircle]

I always bought the full copy knowing touch was with it. Only ever played the touch version. Had '22 gifted to me for a birthday present so my purchase counts. towards this years numbers. It's the last one I will buy

[bgs4]

Bit late to this-  just paid for FM22 and now requested a refund. There is far too much in the game and Touch was perfect. I really hope another company comes along and gives fans what they want. 

[Gerara]

They did exactly the same with Football Manager Live... I am not surprised that once again they show no respect at all to us as customers. At least, they should release a version of FMT 21 with updated database for all platforms (android, ios)

[BuryBlade]

Like many of others on here, I don’t have the time (or desire anymore) to be able to play full fat FM. I started on CM2 at 7 years old, and racked up thousands of hours since. I stopped playing full FM when I got a real job, married and a house. Adult life has less time for games than when I was a child or a student. FMT on the iPad allowed me to play the game in a way that appealed to adult life (pick up and play for short bursts).

A few weeks has passed since my last comments on here. I’ve read every page of the Beta feedback thread and honestly, I’m actually glad the game seems so full of bugs and with no real additions/features. It makes it easier to deal with no FMT22 as it appears FM hasn’t improved again. In my opinion it’s been pretty stagnant for years (same bugs get raised year after year and are still present in the following release)

As disappointing as it is to not have a new game on the iPad, if I want I can still play the old versions, and honestly, I’m at a point after working hard in my admin job all week, I’d rather play Deathloop than do more ‘admin’ work (FM).

[denisio]

On 06/10/2021 at 19:01, FMTouched said:

Ok so some questions for the Switch game: Are there any changes or is it like FMT21 on the Switch. 

Any answer to this? I understand ppl are frustated but any news for us switch users?

[FMTouched]

17 hours ago, denisio said:

Any answer to this? I understand ppl are frustated but any news for us switch users?

Wow its almost been a month since i said that. Time flies with no new information on the Switch game

[DeepLyingForward]

Agree, it would be nice to get the new features outlined for the switch. 

[denisio]

Been playing since 93 on PC and due to lack of time switched to switch. I must say i am amazed on the lack of info for this format. PC gets continously official updates while switch got 2 If on not mistaking  Unofficially PC gets then aswell skins, facepacks, ingame editors and so on. Switch nothing.

Why is this? Is Si not seeing this as an important market? And are there on the FM scene no ppl willing to look Into the switch version for Skins, facepacks,etc..

Denisio

[grade]

I have, right now feelings of Déjà vu.

[Malicious Penguin]

It's so frustrating seeing the Twitter comments "you can fix it in the editor" (Koeman, Nuno). 

 

Genuinely feels like no one cares about Touch/Xbox Edition on PC. 

[grade]

25 minutes ago, Malicious Penguin said:

It's so frustrating seeing the Twitter comments "you can fix it in the editor" (Koeman, Nuno). 

 

Genuinely feels like no one cares about Touch/Xbox Edition on PC. 

I got the same feeling... just comparing the amount of people posting in the General Discussion is so much higher then on FM Touch General discussion, the little things that we didn't care as much, we now know the signs were there.

[Desmond Richardson]

On 30/10/2021 at 16:26, denisio said:

Any answer to this? I understand ppl are frustated but any news for us switch users?

We appreciate the patience many of you have shown in recent weeks in regards to wanting to hear more about the Switch title. Please keep an eye on our social channels and hopefully we should have some news for you soon.

[FelixLeon]

It semms maybe FMT was just too much extra work to work on, thus they streamlined the versions n made it easier for themselves thus keeping those profit margins healthy.... Although having to develop a Switch FMT voids that reasoning a little, the Xbox edition I feel needs to be developed far more as I've looked into getting that as a "replacement" for no FMT on Steam, Android but all the guides, videos seem to show it being lackluster.....no editor just really puts it back 9 years..... If SI want us to get FM full then they should just focus on that 1 product n then offer little FM Mobile for all over devices etc. 

[FelixLeon]

On 31/10/2021 at 12:07, denisio said:

Been playing since 93 on PC and due to lack of time switched to switch. I must say i am amazed on the lack of info for this format. PC gets continously official updates while switch got 2 If on not mistaking  Unofficially PC gets then aswell skins, facepacks, ingame editors and so on. Switch nothing.

Why is this? Is Si not seeing this as an important market? And are there on the FM scene no ppl willing to look Into the switch version for Skins, facepacks,etc..

Denisio

unfortunately it's much harder to add external things to Switch games as its very closed off by Nintendo....i think the reason FM21 Switch got like 2 updates was SI had to submit the update/info to Nintendo first.... Also why there was no unlockables as I'm guessing Nintendo wanted a bigger cut (although SI could have still added them without the paying to unlock them instantly) I'd personally prefer FM Mobile on the Switch. As they have said FMT with he a Switch only version I just hope they actually work on it each year n don't do a Fifa I which they only update the database

[Frizzp]

On 22/10/2021 at 09:20, Burty76 said:

As a follow up, a price increase never goes down well, but it’s a hell of a lot better than just withdrawing the product. I’d happily pay £40 instead of £20 for fm22 on iPad, the number of hours I play the game would still make it value for money 

Agree. I was always amazed it was only £20. I’d love to know how much additional revenue was needed for it to be viable.

[shirajzl]

On 02/11/2021 at 00:43, grade said:

I got the same feeling... just comparing the amount of people posting in the General Discussion is so much higher then on FM Touch General discussion, the little things that we didn't care as much, we now know the signs were there.

I think we did care and we were fully aware what was happening (subconsciously if nothing else), but didn't want to admit it to ourselves.

Once upon a time, for example during FMC 15, this subforum was alive and vibrant, people posting about their games etc. We even had a dedicated Pentagon Challenge on its own!

The fact us users rarely posted in recent years had me worried, coupled with the fact you had to wait for days to get a response from SI guys here. I won't even mention the fact updates for FMT were always late (compared to full FM) and we had no prior info on it, no beta or anything.

[grade]

33 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

I think we did care and we were fully aware what was happening (subconsciously if nothing else), but didn't want to admit it to ourselves.

Once upon a time, for example during FMC 15, this subforum was alive and vibrant, people posting about their games etc. We even had a dedicated Pentagon Challenge on its own!

The fact us users rarely posted in recent years had me worried, coupled with the fact you had to wait for days to get a response from SI guys here. I won't even mention the fact updates for FMT were always late (compared to full FM) and we had no prior info on it, no beta or anything.

Agreed, but also I don't expect anything regarding to this decision. Unfortunately FM Touch is dead and buried, unless there is massive outcry from costumers on the release day or next few days after the release day (which I doubt will ever happen).

Edited November 3, 2021 by grade

[Keyzer Soze]

3 hours ago, shirajzl said:

I think we did care and we were fully aware what was happening (subconsciously if nothing else), but didn't want to admit it to ourselves.

Once upon a time, for example during FMC 15, this subforum was alive and vibrant, people posting about their games etc. We even had a dedicated Pentagon Challenge on its own!

The fact us users rarely posted in recent years had me worried, coupled with the fact you had to wait for days to get a response from SI guys here. I won't even mention the fact updates for FMT were always late (compared to full FM) and we had no prior info on it, no beta or anything.

Actually I think it was the other way round. 

With time SI staff stop interacting in FMT threads and i think that took many users (like me) to stop posting, or looking for information in these thread and instead looking in the FM threads. 

[Malicious Penguin]

Fwiw I preordered Xbox Edition for PC today. Figured for there to be a hope in hell of it continuing, a boycott would do more harm than good.

[kccircle]

I've gone back to FM21 Touch, game will lose me soon. Just a player update would be fine for me and I'd pay for it

[Keyzer Soze]

I'm fine staying with FMT21 for android .

In fact i bought FMT21 for android and PC, so that i could create a file with more than 3 nations.

Currently playing a save in my android tablet with 8 nations, working without issues.

So, despite the lack of transfers uptades, i think that i can keep playing FMT21 for many years. And theres also the option to use "fake players names" when in 2 or 3 years i'm bored with playing with all the sames players names.

[NormandyWept]

(Disclaimer: I am something of a former player. Like many Classic/Touch players, I don't have enough time in my life compared to previous years. I also don't own a Windows device, running Linux on my home computer, and so haven't had access to an officially-supported version of FM since 2018. I only dip into these forums 1-2 times a year nowadays and I don't play every sports - or even every football, or every Football Manager - game ever released. These are just my thoughts, and perhaps people will know better on certain points. The cancellation of Classic as I knew it simply hit me quite hard and reminded me of a lot of the other problems the series has, to the extent that I felt I needed to mention it all. My post is also probably too long - sorry!)

For me, the cancellation of the brilliant FM Classic (or "Touch" - a name almost designed to kill its popularity on PCs ) game is just the latest in a long run of decisions by Sports Interactive which have been driven by a lack of a clear vision for the Football Manager series or any roadmap to deliver the best sports game on the market. (If it was EA in charge, as with the Madden NFL series, I think people would call this 'complacency' about the exclusive licenses - I am more generous than that, however I feel that it appears there hasn't been a clear strategy for many years for Football Manager, really since it defeated the post-SI Championship Manager games and the other football management series that existed before that, e.g. LMA Manager etc.)

At the moment it feels like SI drift around from year to year without enough direction. There doesn't appear to be a clear 5+ year plan/roadmap for where the game is going. Commercial decisions are made which don't connect with the programming and game production decisions.

The biggest missed opportunity for me with Football Manager was when Sports Interactive owned the Out of the Park Baseball series. I don't know baseball as well as football, which has made it harder for me to get into Out of the Park, however the customisation options available in that game are truly brilliant and make it the best sports management game available. All of these options should have been brought over to Football Manager in their entirety. In Out of the Park you can play in real-world leagues but you can just as easily create your own league with whatever rules you like. You can also play whatever historical season you like - the equivalent of buying FM2021 but choosing to see if you can replicate Man Utd's 1999 treble, for example, or play out countless other "what if" scenarios. You can even play completely fantastical games where historical players appear as youth players in completely mixed up years - so in football for example you could see what would happen if Best and Ronaldo played for Manchester United in the same era, or Maradona and Messi for Argentina, etc etc. You can customise the game and turn off whole features - even turning off finances altogether! - in the same way that Classic/Touch players wish you could just turn off the media or the team talk modules in Football Manager. Of course this hasn't lost Out of the Park any sales at all, because most players also want to play with the most up-to-date squads, plus there are always new features added every year, and so fans keep buying the latest games. But without a clear vision or confidence in their strategy, SI have always felt a company too scared to introduce these sort of radical customisation features, which is a shame as they had a big opportunity when they owned both games to take them in a similar direction.

The same customisation features would have allowed fans to easily experiment with women's football by allowing a customisation of the game world to the extent that entire competitions/confederations could be changed. That would have laid the framework for FM to introduce women's football more easily. I recall that for many years women's football was mentioned on this forum and dismissed by SI, however it felt inevitable with the direction of the sports and media landscape - especially in the UK, where SI and a sizeable section of players are based - that women's football would one day need to be in FM. Suddenly we have a U-turn on the policy, but are years away from implementation. It's a consequence of exactly the lack of a clear long-term roadmap for the series over 5-10 years that I'm talking about.

At present it feels like SI are on autopilot from year to year, and driven by the latest 1-2 year commercial relationships. It's hard to separate the Classic/Touch discontinuation announced in this thread from the urging to sign up for Xbox Gamepass and pay a monthly fee to Microsoft. Before that, it was Google Stadia that was the fashion for a year or two, despite the seemingly significant disconnect from offering a Linux-based streaming service to customers who you'd told less than a year before that they could no longer play the game on their own Linux device because it was somehow considered "impossible to support". It doesn't give the impression of being one of the consistently most-played games on Steam, with a coherent plan and vision behind it and a long-term future, when the developer and publisher seem to lurch year to year from one "strategy" to another, telling fans to play the games in different ways every year.

We're less than a year at present from the release of the Steam Deck, which could potentially be a huge change for PC gaming. And yet Sports Interactive discontinued Linux support in Football Manager several years ago (at the point where they were one of Valve/Steam's real poster-children for cross-platform gaming along with Paradox Interactive) and in my (admittedly limited) experience on these forums seem at best "bullish" and often outright hostile about this decision. The latest Football Manager titles have spotty-at-best support for the Proton technology that will power the Steam Deck and much of Linux support for Windows-based games, with updates frequently ruining the game's compatibility with the latest version of Proton. It all looks more of a mistake every single day: people increasingly want to play Football Manager the way that they want to, on the device that they want to. In this thread we have specific iPad and Mac devices mentioned with concerns about whether FM will be playable on them. A decision was made a few years ago to focus on reducing the cross-platform capability of Football Manager at the exact point where the entire technology landscape was moving in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but it's a real shame. I understand when people talk about the impact of Covid-19 and the rest of the economics behind the series. And yet Football Manager seems one of the most blessed digital gaming properties in the world economically, with a huge dedicated following, consistently high sales and usage statistics, and a volunteer research community that provides best-in-class data services for much less than market rate. Given those factors, it seems hard to believe that fans couldn't have a significantly better game and the game a significantly brighter future if it weren't for the glaring gaps in long-term strategic direction.

Edited November 3, 2021 by NormandyWept

[kccircle]

Great post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Burty76]

14 hours ago, kccircle said:

I've gone back to FM21 Touch, game will lose me soon. Just a player update would be fine for me and I'd pay for it

This. Is it possible for anyone to produce updated databases for FM21 touch for tablets?

[grade]

8 minutes ago, Burty76 said:

This. Is it possible for anyone to produce updated databases for FM21 touch for tablets?

Google is your friend, if there is anything out there.

[shirajzl]

14 hours ago, NormandyWept said:

snip

You mentioned customization and I think it ties into one of the biggest problems of FM series as a whole; the hard data of underlying mechanics is deliberately obfuscated. In other complex, multilayered games like Paradox grand strategies, it's absolutely vital that the player is clearly presented with numbers that control the mechanics; if you do X, then Y will happen, if you do Z, then there's a 40% chance X will happen and so on. It's all modifiers and percentages that give you a clear overview of how the game works. In FM, the tactical module, player/team interactions etc. are deliberately buried behind vague in-game descriptions and definitions.

[neilly93]

What are the chances of a final App Store sale for FMT 21? I was still playing 20 and holding off for 22, but if 21 is to be the final version for a while on iPad, I’ll probably go ahead and buy it. That being said, I’m a bit sore in the circumstances about paying full price for a version that will be outdated in 4 days. Also afraid that if I wait and see, 21 will disappear to make way for the up to date Mobile version when it launches.

Edited November 5, 2021 by neilly93
Typos

[grade]

Neilly93, gave me interesting idea.

I normally bought FMT on the Mac, don't have the patience to play on the ipad. Well today, I bought FMT for the Ipad to have the light version with me. At the same time help boost sales for Touch in these last few days of existence. If everyone like me was in this position that hasn't bought FMT for the ipad, did that, it can send a clear message to SI.

I have no illusions if FMT has boost in sales in these last few days, would make SI reverse their decisions. But if in case that happens, then yay for us.

However if that happen and FMT returns, I recommend for SI to call FMT back to Classic. Naming FM Touch is what killed the popularity of this game mode in the first place.

 

[Russ99]

This is a major disappointment, that I'm finding out a week or so before the game was usually released. I've played on iPad ever since iPad Touch was first released.

Instead we now have to play a dumbed down mobile version, and it's doubtful there will even be iPad-focused screens as with other apps, so we have to blow up the mobile screen and click on giant buttons.

I'd often use Touch as a shining example of what iPad development should be instead of much of the rest we get dumbed down light version games, and mobile games loaded with micro transactions, and I was happy to pay a higher price for a full-featured game.

If this was at least on Steam I could play on the upcoming Steam Deck. Seems a very short sighted decision to put this only on Switch, wonder how much Nintendo threw at you guys to make it exclusive.

SI has taken a pretty large hit to their stellar reputation in my eyes.

Really torn, I'll either get the mobile version and write bad reviews and forum comments on how SI abandoned iPad users, or skip it and play last year's Touch.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Russ99

[santy001]

On 03/11/2021 at 22:00, NormandyWept said:

Suddenly we have a U-turn on the policy, but are years away from implementation. It's a consequence of exactly the lack of a clear long-term roadmap for the series over 5-10 years that I'm talking about.

SI make an announcement that women's football will be coming to FM in the future, as part of a clear long-term roadmap for the series over a number of years.

This is however a clear indication that there is a lack of a clear long-term roadmap for the series.

Do you see the self-contradiction?

[NormandyWept]

1 hour ago, santy001 said:

SI make an announcement that women's football will be coming to FM in the future, as part of a clear long-term roadmap for the series over a number of years.

This is however a clear indication that there is a lack of a clear long-term roadmap for the series.

Do you see the self-contradiction?

You're right, the women's football announcement is a sign of long-term plan being introduced. It's late as it should have been started a few years ago, but it is refreshing and there should be more shared about other things that are in longer-term plans for the series. (Such a plan shared a few years ago and making it clear that Classic/Touch would be discontinued but that more customisation features would follow in subsequent iterations and the game would eventually come to tablets, would for example mean there would be a lot fewer replies in this thread expressing surprise and concern.)

The core of my post was the lack of customisation options and the steady reduction in platforms where the game can be played. This is where the series is going wrong, and where the impact of the lack of a plan in this area 5, 10, and 15 years ago is currently being felt - it's clearly not feasible to introduce all of the customisation features in a single year, however if there had been a plan put in place when SI owned Out of the Park Baseball (i.e. fifteen years ago!), many of those customisation features would be in place by now.

Continuing in the current direction with a decision like canning Classic may "add up" for this year's financial accounts, however it is a missed opportunity to retain and recapture certain types of fan and also attract others.

Edited November 5, 2021 by NormandyWept

[SaintPaul]

Will the game be available through game pass cloud tomorrow too? 

[zakbrown96]

@Desmond Richardson with a core of Touch players being via tablets, why isn’t the Xbox version on cloud game pass Touch enabled? 

[Desmond Richardson]

1 minute ago, zakbrown96 said:

@Desmond Richardson with a core of Touch players being via tablets, why isn’t the Xbox version on cloud game pass Touch enabled? 

Hi Zak. We're currently investigating this, we appreciate your patience. As soon as I have more info I shall update you.

Can I ask what device you're currently using?

 

[zakbrown96]

1 minute ago, Desmond Richardson said:

Hi Zak. We're currently investigating this, we appreciate your patience. As soon as I have more info I shall update you.

Can I ask what device you're currently using?

 

IPad Pro 11, 2021. Happy to wait! 

[Desmond Richardson]

7 minutes ago, zakbrown96 said:

IPad Pro 11, 2021. Happy to wait! 

Can you try and play xCloud from the web? 

If you would then like to follow the sets on Microsoft's website and let me know if this works for you.

[zakbrown96]

5 minutes ago, Desmond Richardson said:

Can you try and play xCloud from the web? 

If you would then like to follow the sets on Microsoft's website and let me know if this works for you.

I get stuck on this screen. 

[Desmond Richardson]

4 minutes ago, zakbrown96 said:

I get stuck on this screen. 

Does it not let you tap the controller icon next to the Xbox logo?

[zakbrown96]

7 minutes ago, Desmond Richardson said:

Does it not let you tap the controller icon next to the Xbox logo?

That worked! Will I have to do that every time I load the game up? 

[JTLUFC]

How are people getting past this screen? Been waiting about 10 minutes now 

[Desmond Richardson]

12 minutes ago, zakbrown96 said:

That worked! Will I have to do that every time I load the game up? 

Great! This is just a work around for the time being whilst we're investigating the issue.

[zakbrown96]

7 minutes ago, JTLUFC said:

How are people getting past this screen? Been waiting about 10 minutes now 

I had the same problem had to keep closing and rebooting, plus keep getting poor internet connection yet it’s very strong. With both 500mb download and 60mb upload. Confusing. Another thing is the game keeps putting you in as American not English. And you’ve got to change it every time you load the game up 

Edited November 8, 2021 by zakbrown96

[Waznei]

So… the xbox version is online now. I have been playing and I can confirm is mostly the same as the old fm21 touch, except for the limitation of 10 active countries (and I guess 30 seasons, but I have not seen anything about that). Plus some of the new features: data hub, match engine, etc. 

 

So, its fine to me. I never play with more than 10 countries anyway. If SI had explained better all this, there wouldn’t have been so much fuss about it.

[Desmond Richardson]

1 hour ago, JTLUFC said:

How are people getting past this screen? Been waiting about 10 minutes now 

 

Are you still struggling to get past this screen?

[zakbrown96]

@Desmond RichardsonHow do you get the game to speed up a bit, it’s very much not touch friendly at the moment keeps freezing 

[Burty76]

@Desmond Richardson I’ve got to the same stage on my iPad as the screenshot above, with my username showing, but can’t get past. If I tap on the controller icon I get options for Confirm, Reset or More Options. But I can’t get past this screen. It’s like it wants me to confirm my username before I start but nothing happens when I tap on my username. 
I’ve never had an Xbox so no idea about this stuff