3-1-6 Shape in possession

[crusadertsar]

19 minutes ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Thanks to the mods for deleting my post but leaving crusaderstars nonsense up. Lol you play 3CB and 1 DM of course it's possible, I was talking while defending in back four ofc.

[Jrddrkly]

2 minutes ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

I disagree with that a lot, IWB will eventually slot in pretty much above the middle CB, FB-d is passive af (even though when it can look okay the me calculates it so it gives you horrible results), and does weird runs pretty much along the line even if you have him on narrow. I am through all this.

So you want to build up in a 3-1 shape but then also want one of the 3 to be more aggressive? Surely the idea of the 3 is to stay back and be passive in attack providing options for rotation of play and recycling of possession through the defence and cover for counter attacks as opposed to being aggressive and getting forward?

[MessiMessiMessi]

 

So you want to build up in a 3-1 shape but then also want one of the 3 to be more aggressive? Surely the idea of the 3 is to stay back and be passive in attack providing options for rotation of play and recycling of possession through the defence and cover for counter attacks as opposed to being aggressive and getting forward?

I am saying because he is passive the ME calculates it that the tactic is ****, and you get played through like nothing. I've done all this, when you switch to FB-D suddenly the opponent gets highlights every few seconds.

[Jrddrkly]

Right well lets agree to disagree on this then because while the ME isn't perfect and does have its limitations I find it also is neither unenjoyable or unplayable and in my experience I find the exact oposite to what you're saying in my games

[MessiMessiMessi]

 

Right well lets agree to disagree on this then because while the ME isn't perfect and does have its limitations I find it also is neither unenjoyable or unplayable and in my experience I find the exact oposite to what you're saying in my games

Play with FB-D please and then tell me how much you enjoy it.

[levo in da house]

 

We're having a little trouble scoring goals.

[crusadertsar]

4 minutes ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Play with FB-D please and then tell me how much you enjoy it.

You really have to stop with all this negativity mate. It's not helping anyone. If you are frustrated and unhappy with the game and your tactics, it does not mean that's the case for everyone or  the game is broken.

[fc.cadoni]

41 minutes ago, levo in da house said:

 

We're having a little trouble scoring goals.

Low penetration. Change ST to more aggressive like PF or AF or remove Work Ball Into the Box

[_mxrky]

7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Hmm, What are you talking about? That's not true at all. Fullback on defend duty or even wingback on defend duty with stay back at all times trait  would like to say hello. 

It doesn't really do it properly. I'm literally using that and the full back still stay too wide in the build up. It only somewhat works if you play on a high mentality and add overelap instruction but still not how a pep/arteta/naglesmann fb works

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by _mxrky

[FrazT]

OK- stop the bickering now please.  Disagree by all means, but don't start getting personal or infractions will follow.

[themadsheep2001]

I currently play with a  FB- defend and it's so good for possession build up - think Pavard at Bayern

[(sic)]

I think what people are looking for is FB-D (or a new role) creating a perfect back 3 where one CB will push wider, the other will move to the middle and FB-D will act as a 3rd CB.

It has been discussed in this thread before I think. And it has been shown that you can't really do that. Yes the FB-D will stay deeper, but also wider than you want them to, even with Sit Narrower PI.

 

Those trying to replicate this shape and tactic need to actually understand why this shape is used and what is its goal. So in that sense, yes it does kinda work to help play out of defense and help with possession, but perfectly replicating it in game is impossible, just like with many other movements and shapes.

[timbom]

12 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I currently play with a  FB- defend and it's so good for possession build up - think Pavard at Bayern

Can you post some screenshots for context please? 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, timbom said:

Can you post some screenshots for context please? 

Won't be till Wednesday as I'm away, but hopefully I can describe it and you can see what I mean?

4-2-3-1 shape. I play positive mentality, narrow width, very short passing, no extra creative freedom ( I only want specific players to move in what I'm doing)

FB-D, I think has: sits narrower, dribble less cross from deep, hold position. And of course you need a player without gets forward or hugs touchline. I've previously converted Lindelof there. I have my build-up with the DLP-S on that side, with my winger/inverted winger staying wider.

On the opposite side I have the other full back/sometimes wingback attack with stay wider, and the left CB also asked to stay wider so as the full back is high the left CB fills the gap.

It's not perfect but I do like what I see. 

[timbom]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Won't be till Wednesday as I'm away, but hopefully I can describe it and you can see what I mean?

4-2-3-1 shape. I play positive mentality, narrow width, very short passing, no extra creative freedom ( I only want specific players to move in what I'm doing)

FB-D, I think has: sits narrower, dribble less cross from deep, hold position. And of course you need a player without gets forward or hugs touchline. I've previously converted Lindelof there. I have my build-up with the DLP-S on that side, with my winger/inverted winger staying wider.

On the opposite side I have the other full back/sometimes wingback attack with stay wider, and the left CB also asked to stay wider so as the full back is high the left CB fills the gap.

It's not perfect but I do like what I see. 

Great, cheers for that. I've just given it a go with some of these ideas. I think the narrow width really helps to be fair. There still seems to be some width when in attacking areas (more than FM21) which is nice. 

What role do you use next to the DLP(S)? I've used the BWM (S) this time as I don't want the left side too exposed but this does make is more of a 3-2-5 unless the BWM pushes forward. Thinking a BBM but feels risky. I'm trying to avoid using any role on defensive duty as they seem to step in and cover the fullback space, forming a back 4 again. 

[themadsheep2001]

3 hours ago, timbom said:

Great, cheers for that. I've just given it a go with some of these ideas. I think the narrow width really helps to be fair. There still seems to be some width when in attacking areas (more than FM21) which is nice. 

What role do you use next to the DLP(S)? I've used the BWM (S) this time as I don't want the left side too exposed but this does make is more of a 3-2-5 unless the BWM pushes forward. Thinking a BBM but feels risky. I'm trying to avoid using any role on defensive duty as they seem to step in and cover the fullback space, forming a back 4 again. 

I actually use a BBM or an RPMs. It is somewhat risky, but that's because I'm replicating the Kimmich Goretzka pivot. If you want to do the 3-1-6 in a 4-2-3-1, the double pivot is so important. You need genuinely well rounded players at the relevant levels. And positioning is a key attribute

[timbom]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I actually use a BBM or an RPMs. It is somewhat risky, but that's because I'm replicating the Kimmich Goretzka pivot. If you want to do the 3-1-6 in a 4-2-3-1, the double pivot is so important. You need genuinely well rounded players at the relevant levels. And positioning is a key attribute

Goretzka was my first thought when I was thing about the BBM instead of the BWM. I’ve been using BBM this afternoon with great results so far. Will play some more games and maybe get some screenshots together. Don’t wanna count my chickens 😂 

[CaptCanuck]

Been looking for something different for my upcoming season and have been playing around with this, for another way of getting a 316:

Position wise: I've been trying different striker roles on the right, changing the CWB to WB, and the DLP between De and Su.

TIs: playing with the width, adding overlap right to try and prod the WB to move up sooner

PIs: FB get narrow, right BPD get wide, W stay wide... otherwise nothing too much

Getting the shape from the build up:

The trickiest bit is getting the WB to push wide of the IW, when the ball isn't on the right side of the pitch. But once the ball shifts he will do that job and the key thing regardless of depth is that the width is maintained.

Edited December 14, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

And getting to the opposition 18yd box. Nice to see everyone in the opponent's half:

Not quite as forward here with better width, but it's before that point where the left wide man will start to come inside if that ball gets any further right

[Jrddrkly]

8 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

Been looking for something different for my upcoming season and have been playing around with this, for another way of getting a 316:

Position wise: I've been trying different striker roles on the right, changing the CWB to WB, and the DLP between De and Su.

TIs: playing with the width, adding overlap right to try and prod the WB to move up sooner

PIs: FB get narrow, right BPD get wide, W stay wide... otherwise nothing too much

Getting the shape from the build up:

The trickiest bit is getting the WB to push wide of the IW, when the ball isn't on the right side of the pitch. But once the ball shifts he will do that job and the key thing regardless of depth is that the width is maintained.

I love how without any communication we've managed to come up with two completely differing ways of achieving the same principles from very similar starting points within FM22. Do you not find that having the DLP on the opposite side to your back 3 that you sometimes find a gap in between the 3 and the 1? I noticed personally when I played with the DLP on the side of the Wing Back that I was getting swamped down the other side of the pitch?

 

 

[CaptCanuck]

5 hours ago, Jrddrkly said:

I love how without any communication we've managed to come up with two completely differing ways of achieving the same principles from very similar starting points within FM22. Do you not find that having the DLP on the opposite side to your back 3 that you sometimes find a gap in between the 3 and the 1? I noticed personally when I played with the DLP on the side of the Wing Back that I was getting swamped down the other side of the pitch?

 

 

That's cool! Small world :-)

Ya you're definitely a bit more up and at 'em then me, but roles/formation is pretty much a mirror image.

Interestingly I went DLP opposite the FB so that he would provide some additional cover when the CWB/WB goes on the attack. I felt if the DLP and the FB were on the same side it would be too defensive. And I wanted the FB to cover the Mez and W when they pushed deep.

I have played around with a BBM/CM instead of a Mez, but I felt those 2 roles were dropping deeper more than I'd like.

I'd been using a 4132 or 343 for so long, I'm still trying to figure out how to improve this. I am going to have to try you CM pairing and see what happens.

Edit: forgot to mention I am still on FM21 so not sure how much different the 21v22 ME would react.

Edited December 14, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[Jrddrkly]

5 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

That's cool! Small world :-)

Ya you're definitely a bit more up and at 'em then me, but roles/formation is pretty much a mirror image.

Interestingly I went DLP opposite the FB so that he would provide some additional cover when the CWB/WB goes on the attack. I felt if the DLP and the FB were on the same side it would be too defensive. And I wanted the FB to cover the Mez and W when they pushed deep.

I have played around with a BBM/CM instead of a Mez, but I felt those 2 roles were dropping deeper more than I'd like.

I'd been using a 4132 or 343 for so long, I'm still trying to figure out how to improve this. I am going to have to try you CM pairing and see what happens.

Edit: forgot to mention I am still on FM21 so not sure how much different the 21v22 ME would react.

Haha yeah, that is very much a Kevin Keegan score one more than you set up. I sometimes alternate between BBMs and BWMs against the bigger teams to provide that same kind of cover. I wanted that role to almost be a floater between the 3-1 and the other 5. Ahh right that makes sense with the FM21 vs 22 thing, I was finding that my DLPd was sitting very centrally on FM22 but again haven't tried it on 21.

I won't lie I used to Lurk quite a bit on your old Graham Potter thread a while back. Was a good read

[CaptCanuck]

30 minutes ago, Jrddrkly said:

Haha yeah, that is very much a Kevin Keegan score one more than you set up. I sometimes alternate between BBMs and BWMs against the bigger teams to provide that same kind of cover. I wanted that role to almost be a floater between the 3-1 and the other 5. Ahh right that makes sense with the FM21 vs 22 thing, I was finding that my DLPd was sitting very centrally on FM22 but again haven't tried it on 21.

I won't lie I used to Lurk quite a bit on your old Graham Potter thread a while back. Was a good read

In FM21 the DLP is central as well and will move with the ball (typically between the width of the 18yd box). So if the RWB gets deep that likely means the ball is on that side, so the DLP will be shaded over there and can provide some cover if we lose possession. I did try an RPM but that was overkill and was too far forward from the 3. If you could trust the central MFs to know who should drop and who shouldn't like IRL, I thought of trying two CMs... ach maybe I should just to prove it won't work.

I'd not thought much about additional cover, due to my less attacking style, but I think I will defo try a BBM for a run of matches (I have a Liverpool/Milan/Fulham/Milan run from my previous season I am using to test) and see what he does in buildup. Although then I think I would need a more attacking left W guy to offset that.

Thanks :-) Ya I find it easier to do tactics when I can visualise it in real life so potterball made sense to try. We'll see what he's playing come next Feb/March, when I get '22 and see how it fits in.

[Jrddrkly]

That would seem a bit like overkill to me too. I want a guy who would sit in front of the defence so a player with the Hold Position PI hardcoded was what I looked for. I suppose you could see the RPM as the complete opposite to that. 

Oh yeah for certain, I mean you can give him the PI get further forward or look for someone with the PPM Gets further Forward but its why I still play the IW on attack on that side then the WB on attack too so he's overlapping sooner. It's all about balance at the end of the day and again if I'm against a tougher opponent then I tend to tone down the attacking nature of that side. 

I get that! I didn't realise I was doing a kind of Nagelsmann recreation almost until I did a bit of research into teams that built up in a 3-1 shape for a thread I wrote.

[CaptCanuck]

Ended up d i c k i n g about and made the following changes:

Back 4 stayed the same

PF/DLF/F9... honestly not sure it's a huge impact, but I like what the PF/Su gets me and can even drop to PF/De when need be. Have him going wide when we're in possession to help with the IW and BBM.

Changing to the BBM did require changing the wide guy to a WM/At, it means the leftside width doesn't hang back as much as seems to more easily pinch far post goals. While the BBM does hang back a bit now to provide a bit more cover on that side compared to the previous MEZ/At.

The CM/De is really just to avoid the ball-hogging of the DLP. Play still goes through him as often as not in the buildup, but just not to the same obvious degree it does when explicitly tagged as a playmaker.

In matches it does seem to be more attacking than previous and the 3-1-6 is set up the same as before, with the same vcaveat that the opposite side wide guy will take his time getting up the pitch. For the WB I am hoping to help mitigate that with the winger from Marseille I just bought who doesn't realise he's going to be turned into a WB :-)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

[crusadertsar]

9 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Nice! What formation are you using to achieve this? On FM22?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Nice! What formation are you using to achieve this? On FM22?

4-3-3, which I see is impossible to create a back 3 according to the experts earlier in this thread!  Tomiyasu is a FB(S) instructed to hold position and sit narrow, Gabriel on the other side instructed to stay wider.

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

4-3-3, which I see is impossible to create a back 3 according to the experts earlier in this thread!  Tomiyasu is a FB(S) instructed to hold position and sit narrow, Gabriel on the other side instructed to stay wider.

Dont know why they said it was impossible. 4-3-3 is my go to shape too when i want to create back three. 

[Lasson]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

What about the rest of the formation? That map looks amazing!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 minutes ago, Lasson said:

What about the rest of the formation? That map looks amazing!

[CaptCanuck]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

4-3-3, which I see is impossible to create a back 3 according to the experts earlier in this thread!  Tomiyasu is a FB(S) instructed to hold position and sit narrow, Gabriel on the other side instructed to stay wider.

Who said that? Was it one of the posts that got deleted?

Isn't a 4123 even easier to get a 3-1 out of? Kidding aside, cool stuff.

Edited December 18, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[AndersAas]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Do you mind sharing the rest of the PIs? Stay wider on the IW? Narrower on the IF? Move into channels on the RPM?

[Jrddrkly]

24 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Who said that? Was it one of the posts that got deleted?

Isn't a 4123 even easier to get a 3-1 out of? Kidding aside, cool stuff.

Please don't dig that up again 

But yeah I agree achieving a 3-1 shape isn't that difficult as long as you know when you're looking for it

[prched55]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

How is using all support duties working out for you?

Side note: I use a 433 to create a 3-1-6 shape with my semi-pro Welsh team so I know anyone can do it too.

[levo in da house]

13 saat önce, AndersAas said:

Do you mind sharing the rest of the PIs? Stay wider on the IW? Narrower on the IF? Move into channels on the RPM?

Nothing fancy.

• DCL stays wide
• DR sits narrow
• MCR moves into channels and gets forward
• MCL moves into channels
• AMR stays wide and gets forward
• AML sits narrow
• ST roams from position

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 hours ago, prched55 said:

How is using all support duties working out for you?

Side note: I use a 433 to create a 3-1-6 shape with my semi-pro Welsh team so I know anyone can do it too.

Ask me in 19 games 

We're holding our own. Outscoring anyone else in the league comfortably. Have been a bit exposed in the bigger games - perhaps due to the aggressive 3-1-6 shape. Need to make up for a couple of early draws against low-block sides.

Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea are pretty relentless.

[AndersAas]

6 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Ask me in 19 games 

We're holding our own. Outscoring anyone else in the league comfortably. Have been a bit exposed in the bigger games - perhaps due to the aggressive 3-1-6 shape. Need to make up for a couple of early draws against low-block sides.

Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea are pretty relentless.

What would be your first adjustment to challenge the low-block sides sitting deep? Upping the tempo to try to play around them enough to make an opening?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

17 minutes ago, AndersAas said:

What would be your first adjustment to challenge the low-block sides sitting deep? Upping the tempo to try to play around them enough to make an opening?

My first step was to switch from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3. The 4-2-3-1 was very stable, great possession and created a 3-2-5 attacking shape and was strong enough to get us back into Europe. The 4-3-3 gives us an extra attacking player on the field and potential to attack as a 3-1-6 which has already broken down a lot of sides.

Last season we drew 10, including the likes of Newcastle, Everton, Burnley, West Ham, Villa etc. This season, only 3 which were Newcastle and West Ham again and Brentford (now managed by Wilder) so it's still an issue but we're improving.

I'm happy with the tactics but need to give the players a bit more time to develop. I've put a lot of faith in Martinelli, Balogun and Nketiah and sometimes we have missed a proven goalscorer but I think it will be worth it in the long run.

I always targeted 3rd season for the title - Salah, Mane, Firminho, De Bruyne and Kante all turn the wrong side of 30 and Guardiola's contract at City finishes.

[retrodude09]

3 hours ago, levo in da house said:

Nothing fancy.

• DCL stays wide
• DR sits narrow
• MCR moves into channels and gets forward
• MCL moves into channels
• AMR stays wide and gets forward
• AML sits narrow
• ST roams from position

Are these the PIs that you use or are you speaking for @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Are these the PIs that you use or are you speaking for @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!? 

He's quoted. I was asked the same question in another thread so Levo kindly put the response here as well

[Br3nB]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

He's quoted. I was asked the same question in another thread so Levo kindly put the response here as well

Any chance of starting a career update thread or posting more detail in the Arsenal thread?

Think a lot of us would love to see the ins and outs of your save, such as player development and transfers etc.

Obviously understand that you’re also restricted by time ha!

[levo in da house]

10 saat önce, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Ask me in 19 games 

We're holding our own. Outscoring anyone else in the league comfortably. Have been a bit exposed in the bigger games - perhaps due to the aggressive 3-1-6 shape. Need to make up for a couple of early draws against low-block sides.

Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea are pretty relentless.

    


First match not bad.  

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

12 hours ago, levo in da house said:

    


First match not bad.  

Breaking the 1,000 pass barrier first game. Not bad! 

[_mxrky]

Don’t think anyone said it was impossible. Just that the full back isn’t as narrow as he should be to form the back three even with sit narrower 

[(sic)]

On 18/12/2021 at 17:52, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

4-3-3, which I see is impossible to create a back 3 according to the experts earlier in this thread!  Tomiyasu is a FB(S) instructed to hold position and sit narrow, Gabriel on the other side instructed to stay wider.

 

On 29/11/2021 at 08:53, (sic) said:

I think what people are looking for is FB-D (or a new role) creating a perfect back 3 where one CB will push wider, the other will move to the middle and FB-D will act as a 3rd CB.

It has been discussed in this thread before I think. And it has been shown that you can't really do that. Yes the FB-D will stay deeper, but also wider than you want them to, even with Sit Narrower PI.

 

In your screenshot, it's clear that the 2 CBs are sitting right in the middle, with FB-S staying wider on the right, but not pushing up. Again, that's not really what people have been looking for. People want left CB to move wider and RB to sit deep and narrow and act like a 3rd CB, creating a perfect back three. And that is indeed impossible to recreate, so there was no need for that condescending comment.

Nobody said it's impossible to create what you've created. In fact, people have shown multiple different ways to achieve something similar that's closely resembling that perfect 3-1 shape people are after.

Edited December 20, 2021 by (sic)

[themadsheep2001]

On 29/11/2021 at 19:21, timbom said:

Goretzka was my first thought when I was thing about the BBM instead of the BWM. I’ve been using BBM this afternoon with great results so far. Will play some more games and maybe get some screenshots together. Don’t wanna count my chickens 😂 

 

This is from my Nagelsmann replication, which uses a 3-2-5/3-1-6 build up, depending on how aggressive "Kimmich" is being. I Lindelof as the FB-D, with sit narrower, so he holds the majority of the time during the initial build, but sort of floats up if the ball is highly advanced on his flank, which is what Stanisic does for Bayern

[BrickCommo23]

Hi all,

I joined in this thread back in FM21 and failed spectacularly to get a 3-1-6 going with Arsenal but am having another go this year.

I know many are trying to get their RB to tuck in to make the 3 but I am having a slightly different approach and trying to use a Half Back to make the 3 instead.

This is my current effort but very much welcome any thoughts anyone may have as I am trying to make this work mid-season so margin for error is minimal (and have shamelessly stolen some ideas from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!in terms of mentality and compactness...)

 

 

[timbom]

22 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Hi all,

I joined in this thread back in FM21 and failed spectacularly to get a 3-1-6 going with Arsenal but am having another go this year.

I know many are trying to get their RB to tuck in to make the 3 but I am having a slightly different approach and trying to use a Half Back to make the 3 instead.

This is my current effort but very much welcome any thoughts anyone may have as I am trying to make this work mid-season so margin for error is minimal (and have shamelessly stolen some ideas from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!in terms of mentality and compactness...)

 

How does it do out of possession? Does the midfield stay in a 1-1 shape like they are on the tactics screen? 

I also like the idea of using my midfielders to achieve it instead of the fullback so curious to see if it's doable 

22 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

 

[timbom]

Just now, timbom said:

I also like the idea of using my midfielders to achieve it instead of the fullback so curious to see if it's doable 

 

having said that I had some decent results last night with Ajax using timber as a RB(S) with the PIs others have mentioned to make him one of the '3' and blind as a DLP(D): 

- 4-2-3-1 

2 -RB - FB(S) + sit narrower, cut inside with ball, cross less often

4 -RCB - CB(C)

21 - LCB -BPD(D) - (stay wider, dribble more) 

31 - LB - FB(A) - (shoot less often) 

17 - RCM - DLP(D)