3-1-6 Shape in possession

[timbom]

I'm trying to figure out a way (if there is one) of playing with a back 4 formation. Ideally 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 which can build up with a 3-1-6 of sorts. A lot of teams IRL are doing it but it seems difficult to replicate in FM. Something like this: 

Ajax in possession 

I've tried this with a 4-2-3-1 DM with a HB and Reg/DLP/SV but can't seem to crack it. 

It's very doable with a 3-1-4-2 etc but then we're defending using 3 CBs. 

Not even sure if this is possible in the current ME but any ideas are appreciated!

The closest I've come so far is something like this (distribute to team mate is De Jong):

        

             

Thinking more aggressive fullbacks and AMRs more narrow roles (IFs?).  

Edited January 10, 2021 by timbom

[retrodude09]

This is actually something I'm interested at replicating in my current save with Liverpool but I'm waiting until the end of my current season to try anything. Maybe something like:

CF (A)

IW (S) - AM (S) - W (A)

HB (D) - RPM (S)

WB (A) - CD (D) - CD (D) - IWB (S)

SK (S)

As I said, I haven't tried it yet but that's what I initially plan to go with. 

[timbom]

Thanks for the reply! Let me know how you get on with that^, would be interested to find out. From what I've tried so far the RPM way get drawn towards the ball making it a 4 instead of a 3 but I could be wrong. What's the thinking with the IWB, just to cover the RPM and W(A)?

I've had a little more luck pushing the fullbacks into the WB strata's. Gonna experiment with the front 4 and see what comes out.. 

 

[retrodude09]

47 minutes ago, timbom said:

Thanks for the reply! Let me know how you get on with that^, would be interested to find out. From what I've tried so far the RPM way get drawn towards the ball making it a 4 instead of a 3 but I could be wrong. What's the thinking with the IWB, just to cover the RPM and W(A)?

I've had a little more luck pushing the fullbacks into the WB strata's. Gonna experiment with the front 4 and see what comes out.. 

 

I went with IWB & W combination just for a little bit of variety but from what I said, the IWB didn't actually invert 

[timbom]

UPDATE: 

Getting closer: 

   

[timbom]

5 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

I went with IWB & W combination just for a little bit of variety but from what I said, the IWB didn't actually invert 

I think it's maybe something to do with the deep double pivot - I had a similar problem a few days ago. Guessing it's because there's no space in that zone on the tactics screen despite the role roaming etc 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Ah, interesting. I have been interested in a similar idea.

I have managed to get the 3-1-6 working pretty well, playing probably the best attacking football I have seen.

We use the back 4 with  a double pivot including a half back to create the '3-1' build up shape.

..and then wingbacks and narrow attacking roles to create my 6.

This was the set up.

Since these screenshots I have since decided that I prefer a DLP(S) to a RPM(S) in order to hold the shape more effectively.

I also found the same issue with Inverted Wingbacks not having the space to come inside when played with a double pivot.

Good luck 

[LHurlz]

9 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

I went with IWB & W combination just for a little bit of variety but from what I said, the IWB didn't actually invert 

The IWB does not invert in formations with more than 1 DM. 

[drigaco]

1 hora atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Ah, interesting. I have been interested in a similar idea.

I have managed to get the 3-1-6 working pretty well, playing probably the best attacking football I have seen.

We use the back 4 with  a double pivot including a half back to create the '3-1' build up shape.

..and then wingbacks and narrow attacking roles to create my 6.

This was the set up.

Since these screenshots I have since decided that I prefer a DLP(S) to a RPM(S) in order to hold the shape more effectively.

I also found the same issue with Inverted Wingbacks not having the space to come inside when played with a double pivot.

Good luck 

If only the halfback would stay in between the center backs after the initial build up.

The only way I can get this to work is with a fb(D) with stay inside PI, but even then it's not really symmetrical with the other CBs. Every 316 we see (Monchengladbach, Liverpool, City, etc.) the team stays with the 3+1 shape in the attacking phase. 

[howard moon]

13 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This was the set up.

Since these screenshots I have since decided that I prefer a DLP(S) to a RPM(S) in order to hold the shape more effectively.

Do you find that the positioning of the wide attacker influences how much the wingbacks get forward @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!?

I’ve noticed that with a support duty wide player in the M strata, the wingback doesn’t get as far forward. Presumably because there isn’t enough space.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

20 hours ago, drigaco said:

If only the halfback would stay in between the center backs after the initial build up.

The only way I can get this to work is with a fb(D) with stay inside PI, but even then it's not really symmetrical with the other CBs. Every 316 we see (Monchengladbach, Liverpool, City, etc.) the team stays with the 3+1 shape in the attacking phase. 

Yes, I agree it'd be nice but it's not a massive concern. I don't mind too much having a 2-2 at the back when we attack. I think the only way to have a constant 3-1 is to play a back 3. But when I do that, it becomes much harder to get the front 6 whilst maintaining balance.

 

8 hours ago, howard moon said:

Do you find that the positioning of the wide attacker influences how much the wingbacks get forward @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!?

I’ve noticed that with a support duty wide player in the M strata, the wingback doesn’t get as far forward. Presumably because there isn’t enough space.

Sometimes I'd like them to get forward more, but in most instances it's pretty balanced. The chain of 6 really only takes effect in the attacking phase. It's mostly a front 4, flanked by 2 wingbacks.

For the wide players I do ask them to sit narrower and roam from position.

[apaat]

Love this idea. I tried it implement it in my own save with some success in appearance at least (played 2 games, lost one badly, drew the second tightly).

 

Game 1:

 

 

Game 2:

 

 

The formation:

 

 

I am already playing with a 4-3-3 and tested this out in the LLM save I am doing. The team is not great (media predicted 17th in the Spanish First Division) and this can explain some of the caution I used to build the tactic. The poor squad is also why I kept this shape and did not experiment with other shapes, I wanted to make sure my players had familiarity to pull it off. 

For PIs;

- Both WBs are told to Stay Wider - to make sure they are wide and high.

- The CB and HB are told to Take Fewer Risks - to help up keep possession and not risk too many defensive transition in exposed positions.

- The IF is told to Sit Narrower - to ensure the WB has space on the outside

- The IW is told to both Sit Narrower and Get Further Forward - to ensure the WB has space and to make sure the IW is pushed up high enough.

 

In terms of what I could do better, there are maybe a couple of things. I would like to experiment with both full backs as either WB(a) or CWB(s)/(a). I would also be tempted to push my MCL in to the AM strata and see how that works. Those changes have not happened yet because of the aforementioned poor player quality. I will incrementally tinker with this setup however, and see what can be done.

A quick edit: A tried this in a third game and got beaten badly, 2 out of my 3 games using this set up have been quite bad beatings. 3 games is a tiny sample size but the disparity in xG and even possession, when this is an adaptation of a possession heavy formation are quite stark. The set up may have legs but I think its probably a bit too adventurous and unbalanced for my current squad quality. Would like to see if anyone else picks up this specific form of the idea with a better squad to see what happens.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by apaat
Additional Information

[CaptCanuck]

On 10/01/2021 at 13:45, timbom said:

I think it's maybe something to do with the deep double pivot - I had a similar problem a few days ago. Guessing it's because there's no space in that zone on the tactics screen despite the role roaming etc 

TBH I think it might have more to do with @retrodude09 using an RPM and AM as that makes two players the IWB will be competing for space with if he is going to attempt to invert.

If the AM isn't there (either with a 433 or 523) then the inverting has a better chance of happening. Of course I've been wrong before, will be again.

I took this screenshot out of my Potterball thread, where I wanted to show how the IWB/W combo helps create overloads to open up the right side. You can see here we manage to get 7 players forward (playing a 523) with the IWB (Karbo in the screenshot)/CM/AF being key in the build up. I think having an HB sitting deep instead of that 3rd CB could get the same thing.

Edited January 12, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[timbom]

Bloody hell this got some traction! Thanks for all the replies guys - gonna have a play tonight and see what comes out. 

[timbom]

On 11/01/2021 at 07:03, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Ah, interesting. I have been interested in a similar idea.

I have managed to get the 3-1-6 working pretty well, playing probably the best attacking football I have seen.

We use the back 4 with  a double pivot including a half back to create the '3-1' build up shape.

..and then wingbacks and narrow attacking roles to create my 6.

This was the set up.

Since these screenshots I have since decided that I prefer a DLP(S) to a RPM(S) in order to hold the shape more effectively.

I also found the same issue with Inverted Wingbacks not having the space to come inside when played with a double pivot.

Good luck 

 

Do you think overload is the reason why the wingbacks are so high? I felt like they were always too deep when they were in that strata for me but was on positive/ balanced. I tried them on attack duties but the attacks seemed to go through them too much 

Edited January 12, 2021 by timbom

[timbom]

UPDATE: 

Getting even closer: 

 

   

 

Beat Bilbao 2-0 using this. Best result so far with these tactic tests (always v Bilbao). Dominating performance too. Work ball into box helped stop my CWB's spamming crosses. Thanks for all the help so far everyone - tried to incorporate plenty of your ideas  

 

 

[Lordluap]

Hi guys, not posted in a LONG time.  This post encouraged me to.  I don't have screenshots due to being at work but...  if we look at this based on Lille and Christophe Galtier's "4-4-2" standard positioning that morphs in to "3-1-6" this can be achieved

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/lilles-flexible-3-1-6-system-tactical-analysis-tactics

The key is to have your double pivot in the CM slots.  Select them as CM/d.  One of these will be the player to drop to become the ancillary left or right sided 3rd centre back,  All you have to do is set his PI to "Stay Wider".

Of course, as per ME limitations it isn't perfect, but I feel its closer than using the HB.

The other CM/d acts as the point of the Triangle.  You could use other roles - such as DLP/d - but for me this seems optimum.

 

The set up I would look for is something like:

FB/WB/a..................CD/d..................NCB/c..................FB/WB/a

IW/a........................CM/d..................CM/d (stay wider).....IW/a

................................AF/a...................DLF/s.............................

 

In football, its players who manipulate space, and its the same here. WE have to manipulate the space the players occupy.

I would ask the IW/a's to Sit Narrower, the FB/WBa's to Stay Wider and Run Wide with Ball. 

Possibly ask the Team to look for Overlaps on both sides.

The Key is one of the CM/d's (in this case the left sided CM) to Stay Wide.  a PPM of Stays Back at All Times would also be desirable.  He will then sit side - and just ahead of - the NCB/c.  I would also consider adding "Stay Wide" to the right sided CD/d.

 

I've also used this style to aid in recreating Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's use of defensive minded midfielders who drift to cover attacking Fullbacks, or Bielsa's use to add superiority of numbers wide when building out from the back.

 

Will attempt to add screenshots when I get home this evening.

 

 

 

[timbom]

7 hours ago, Lordluap said:

Hi guys, not posted in a LONG time.  This post encouraged me to.  I don't have screenshots due to being at work but...  if we look at this based on Lille and Christophe Galtier's "4-4-2" standard positioning that morphs in to "3-1-6" this can be achieved

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/lilles-flexible-3-1-6-system-tactical-analysis-tactics

The key is to have your double pivot in the CM slots.  Select them as CM/d.  One of these will be the player to drop to become the ancillary left or right sided 3rd centre back,  All you have to do is set his PI to "Stay Wider".

Of course, as per ME limitations it isn't perfect, but I feel its closer than using the HB.

The other CM/d acts as the point of the Triangle.  You could use other roles - such as DLP/d - but for me this seems optimum.

 

The set up I would look for is something like:

FB/WB/a..................CD/d..................NCB/c..................FB/WB/a

IW/a........................CM/d..................CM/d (stay wider).....IW/a

................................AF/a...................DLF/s.............................

 

In football, its players who manipulate space, and its the same here. WE have to manipulate the space the players occupy.

I would ask the IW/a's to Sit Narrower, the FB/WBa's to Stay Wider and Run Wide with Ball. 

Possibly ask the Team to look for Overlaps on both sides.

The Key is one of the CM/d's (in this case the left sided CM) to Stay Wide.  a PPM of Stays Back at All Times would also be desirable.  He will then sit side - and just ahead of - the NCB/c.  I would also consider adding "Stay Wide" to the right sided CD/d.

 

I've also used this style to aid in recreating Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's use of defensive minded midfielders who drift to cover attacking Fullbacks, or Bielsa's use to add superiority of numbers wide when building out from the back.

 

Will attempt to add screenshots when I get home this evening.

 

 

 

Ironically I had a short lived journeyman save where my first job was Lille earlier in FM21. Couldn't get a tune out of them then the squad turned on me! 

Look forward to any screenshots you can get across. Gonna give the CM(D)'s a whirl when I get chance 

[Lordluap]

Here's a quick screen grab of a passage of play and a pass map:

 

[Lordluap]

Here's another 2, Chelsea v Atletico

 

[Lordluap]

Another 2

 

[CaptCanuck]

9 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

Here's another 2, Chelsea v Atletico

 

What phase of play is that? Did it come from a turnover, build up, throw in? Just trying to contextualise it :-)

Unrelated, but are you on FM20? Passing map was still broken last time I checked in FM21.

[Lordluap]

3 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

What phase of play is that? Did it come from a turnover, build up, throw in? Just trying to contextualise it :-)

Unrelated, but are you on FM20? Passing map was still broken last time I checked in FM21.

These 2 came from periods of build up play after winning the ball in my own third.

 

The next 2 came from build up after playing out from the back / GK

 

It's 20 - I'd actually forgotten 21 was out but i'd assume SI haven't changed how the ME / CM's act...?

Edited January 13, 2021 by Lordluap

[CaptCanuck]

8 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

These 2 came from periods of build up play after winning the ball in my own third.

 

The next 2 came from build up after playing out from the back / GK

 

It's 20 - I'd actually forgotten 21 was out but i'd assume SI haven't changed how the ME / CM's act...?

Thanks for the info!

I know you mentioned it as a suggestion, but is the CB opposite side of the CM-d with set to wide, also set to wide himself in those screenshots? Guessing not, as neither of the CBs looks that wide?

Have you tried a CM-s or maybe a BBM to get more of a pointy diamond out of that deep 'midfield' four?

 

Don't want to derail the OP's thread, but I do think FM21 ME > FM20 ME and requires different tactical tweaks - assuming bringing an FM20 tactic to FM21 - to get things working at their best.

[Lordluap]

34 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Thanks for the info!

I know you mentioned it as a suggestion, but is the CB opposite side of the CM-d with set to wide, also set to wide himself in those screenshots? Guessing not, as neither of the CBs looks that wide?

Have you tried a CM-s or maybe a BBM to get more of a pointy diamond out of that deep 'midfield' four?

 

Don't want to derail the OP's thread, but I do think FM21 ME > FM20 ME and requires different tactical tweaks - assuming bringing an FM20 tactic to FM21 - to get things working at their best.

An excellent point... in the Chelsea screenshots no, I'd forgotten to set the left CB to stay wider...  

I have used a CM/s and a DLP/s and both do indeed move further forward.  I've opted for CM/d for a tad more defensive solidity.  The first screenshots I posted (in the green kit) used a DLP/s.

 

If FM21 doesn't allow this particular movement I apologise to the OP, but perhaps one could try it and see?

[CaptCanuck]

27 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

An excellent point... in the Chelsea screenshots no, I'd forgotten to set the left CB to stay wider...  

I have used a CM/s and a DLP/s and both do indeed move further forward.  I've opted for CM/d for a tad more defensive solidity.  The first screenshots I posted (in the green kit) used a DLP/s.

 

If FM21 doesn't allow this particular movement I apologise to the OP, but perhaps one could try it and see?

Oh no they push out. I have get wide for the two outside CBs in my back 3 and they'll get out to the touchline no prob.

And in a separate but similar formation, both CARs and CMs with the PI added will float out wide.

[Lordluap]

One more of Chelsea turning the screw on Legia... the Left CB is mainly a creative DM Segundo Volante type player and he has brought the ball forward:

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 12/01/2021 at 23:43, timbom said:

 

Do you think overload is the reason why the wingbacks are so high? I felt like they were always too deep when they were in that strata for me but was on positive/ balanced. I tried them on attack duties but the attacks seemed to go through them too much 

No, the Team Mentality is just setting a reference point for the player's Individual Mentalities. In this system my wingbacks would both have attacking individual mentalities.

If you're not getting the movement from them, I'd check their mentalities (in the player instructions screen) to make sure they're - at least - positive.

I get the same shape using an aggressive 4-2DM-2AMR/L-2 shape with PSG with a control mentality.

Also think about how high you actually want your wingbacks. For me, in build up I don't want a flat line of 6 as it leaves a big gap between my '3-1' at the back and the 6. Instead I want the 6 to be an arc-shape. With the wingbacks slightly advanced from the DM, the AMR/L more advanced (and narrower) and then the strikers more advanced (and narrower again).

Hope that makes sense! I can try another screenshot later on, if not. On very bad internet at the moment though so cannot promise!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

11 hours ago, Lordluap said:

One more of Chelsea turning the screw on Legia... the Left CB is mainly a creative DM Segundo Volante type player and he has brought the ball forward:

 

Thank you for posting, I am impressed! 

I did not realise you could get that '3-1' shape at the back by using 2 MC(D)s. Thank you for sharing. 

[Lordluap]

11 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

No, the Team Mentality is just setting a reference point for the player's Individual Mentalities. In this system my wingbacks would both have attacking individual mentalities.

If you're not getting the movement from them, I'd check their mentalities (in the player instructions screen) to make sure they're - at least - positive.

I get the same shape using an aggressive 4-2DM-2AMR/L-2 shape with PSG with a control mentality.

Also think about how high you actually want your wingbacks. For me, in build up I don't want a flat line of 6 as it leaves a big gap between my '3-1' at the back and the 6. Instead I want the 6 to be an arc-shape. With the wingbacks slightly advanced from the DM, the AMR/L more advanced (and narrower) and then the strikers more advanced (and narrower again).

Hope that makes sense! I can try another screenshot later on, if not. On very bad internet at the moment though so cannot promise!

There is an important point here - the wingbacks should only really ever be forming a straight line of 6 when they are deep inside the opponents final 3rd - almost at the by-line - in order to stretch the oppositions back line laterally.  In build up they are more beneficial to sit halfway between the rear line of 3 and the attacking 4, offering 45 degree passing angles for wall passes from the back 3 to the attack.

[cristhianlinhatti]

 

 

 

[Lordluap]

Again at work, so no screenshots.  But more tweaking this game-by-game in pre-season has given me the following:

Set RB to FB/a.

Set CML to DLP/s

Ask GK to Distribute to LCB (short kicks)

Set TI to Play Out of Defence

Set TI to Focus play down Right Flank

Look for Overlaps both sides.

Set LB to WB/a

 

This achieves some interesting behaviours that enhance play:

 

Playing ball out to LCB from a goal kick means the CMR that we want to form the right sided "CB" in the 3 actually sits very advanced between the lines when the goal kick is taken.  Offering a dangerous direct ball outlet and enabling the GL, CB's and DLP to form the first 3-1 shape (see the images in the originally quoted (excellent) article on Lille's use of the 3-1-6: Here).  Once the ball is played normally out from the defence he then drifts back and wide of the RCB to allow the ball circulation that we want to achieve in the 3-1 in the middle of the park.  As we are focussing play down the right, the LCB passes amongst the 3-1 with the aim to move the play to the right, involving the CML (DLP/s) and the CMR (CM/d) and the Overlap function means the RB (FB/a)  throttles forward down the line.  My observations have been that if both RB and LB are the same Role & Mentality one will hang back - breaking up the 3-1-6 and meaning its more a lopsided 3-2-5 or 4-1-5.  By setting the LB to WB/a the player mirrors the forward run of the RB more, forming the staggered 6 in the attacking line we want. 

The DLP/s forms more of a diamond shape and his slightly more advanced ball magnet Role & Mentality aids possession and ball recycling when possession is lost in advanced areas.

 

Over the weekend I will provide more screenshots of the tactic screen, TI's and in-game passages of play to highlight the above described behaviours.  All-in-all I'm finding this an excellent tactic - albeit with a very strong squad (Chelsea in 2037 have bought a "Galactico" for around £100million in each of the past 8 off-seasons... and I've just taken over) so perhaps a weaker squad will have a harder time achieving the desired play, but it's still working extremely well.

 

 

 

[timbom]

On 15/01/2021 at 11:39, Lordluap said:

Again at work, so no screenshots.  But more tweaking this game-by-game in pre-season has given me the following:

Set RB to FB/a.

Set CML to DLP/s

Ask GK to Distribute to LCB (short kicks)

Set TI to Play Out of Defence

Set TI to Focus play down Right Flank

Look for Overlaps both sides.

Set LB to WB/a

 

This achieves some interesting behaviours that enhance play:

 

Playing ball out to LCB from a goal kick means the CMR that we want to form the right sided "CB" in the 3 actually sits very advanced between the lines when the goal kick is taken.  Offering a dangerous direct ball outlet and enabling the GL, CB's and DLP to form the first 3-1 shape (see the images in the originally quoted (excellent) article on Lille's use of the 3-1-6: Here).  Once the ball is played normally out from the defence he then drifts back and wide of the RCB to allow the ball circulation that we want to achieve in the 3-1 in the middle of the park.  As we are focussing play down the right, the LCB passes amongst the 3-1 with the aim to move the play to the right, involving the CML (DLP/s) and the CMR (CM/d) and the Overlap function means the RB (FB/a)  throttles forward down the line.  My observations have been that if both RB and LB are the same Role & Mentality one will hang back - breaking up the 3-1-6 and meaning its more a lopsided 3-2-5 or 4-1-5.  By setting the LB to WB/a the player mirrors the forward run of the RB more, forming the staggered 6 in the attacking line we want. 

The DLP/s forms more of a diamond shape and his slightly more advanced ball magnet Role & Mentality aids possession and ball recycling when possession is lost in advanced areas.

 

Over the weekend I will provide more screenshots of the tactic screen, TI's and in-game passages of play to highlight the above described behaviours.  All-in-all I'm finding this an excellent tactic - albeit with a very strong squad (Chelsea in 2037 have bought a "Galactico" for around £100million in each of the past 8 off-seasons... and I've just taken over) so perhaps a weaker squad will have a harder time achieving the desired play, but it's still working extremely well.

 

 

 

Thanks for all the info, going to have a play this weekend and see what comes out. The 2 CM strata appeals to me massively so hoping I can get it working!

[timbom]

Quick update: 

 

New variation of the system: 

  

 

Using @Lordluap's ideas about manipulating space with PI's I've set every defender to 'stay wider' to give us what I'd consider quite a 'true' 3-1 in build up. 2 wins out of 2 so far but against weaker oppo in Getafe and Castellon (cup). Very small sample size and worried I'll be too vulnerable on the counter but we'll see.. 

May be a coincidence but using the SV on attack duty seems to give more space for the HB to drop centrally with the SV pushing higher. 

Will keep going and update when I get chance 

[Pavi]

In a save that is a homage to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! using Benfica, I am achieving 3-1-6 shape that is well distributed through the width of the pitch with this formation:

[timbom]

12 hours ago, Pavi said:

In a save that is a homage to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! using Benfica, I am achieving 3-1-6 shape that is well distributed through the width of the pitch with this formation:

Look great. Are you getting good results? My 4-2-3-1 version seems a little tame despite achieving the shape 

[Pavi]

12 minutes ago, timbom said:

Look great. Are you getting good results? My 4-2-3-1 version seems a little tame despite achieving the shape 

Quite good actually, still have to finish my season but will surely win the league and just beaten Atletico Madrid 4-0 in the first leg UCL semi-final. The pairing of Waldschmidt (as F9) and Núñez (PF-A) is scoring goal for  fun with 57 netted between them. But the real revelation for me was the use of wide-midfielders. I think I almost never used in over 12 years playing FM, but being a "generalistic" role it allows to get exactly the movement I want from them, much better than an IW or IF (in the AM strata).

The squad and performances:

Latest results:

Competitions overview:

[timbom]

26 minutes ago, Pavi said:

Quite good actually, still have to finish my season but will surely win the league and just beaten Atletico Madrid 4-0 in the first leg UCL semi-final. The pairing of Waldschmidt (as F9) and Núñez (PF-A) is scoring goal for  fun with 57 netted between them. But the real revelation for me was the use of wide-midfielders. I think I almost never used in over 12 years playing FM, but being a "generalistic" role it allows to get exactly the movement I want from them, much better than an IW or IF (in the AM strata).

The squad and performances:

Latest results:

Competitions overview:

Solid! Do you have PI's on the WMs? I like the idea of Messi and Greizmann as a F9 and AF/ PF(A)...

[timbom]

Going back to the Ajax pic at the top of the thread, I love the way Tadic and Van De Beek played together a couple of season ago but never been able to replicate that AND score goals before. I'd like something similar with Messi and Griezmann 

[Lordluap]

Here's mine:  The F9 / AF combo is great.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Lordluap

[Pavi]

3 hours ago, timbom said:

Solid! Do you have PI's on the WMs? I like the idea of Messi and Greizmann as a F9 and AF/ PF(A)...

Both are asked to mark the opposition fullback on their side. This greatly reduces overlaps from the opposition and result in them tracking back a lot despite their attacking mentality. Then the differences are largely due to their position within the formation and players’ characteristics:

• To the right WM I ask to sit narrow to exploit the space left by having the half-back on his side. Using Pizzi who is more of a wide playmaker I also tick the “take more risks” PI.
• On the left I ask to cut inside but without the sit narrower instruction, as I want a diagonal outside-to-halfspace movement rather than a vertical one. I also allow him to “roam from position” because I have two intelligent players and I want them more unpredictable.

I like a lot the pairing of F9 / PFA as with the right players you have a really complementary team, with one dropping to midfield and the other pressing the back line or finishing through balls. I prefer a PFA to an AF as the former is more involved in passing and maneuver and can bring into play the WM.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Pavi

[Pavi]

1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

Here's mine:  The F9 / AF combo is great.

2037!!! Take a bow to your commitment to the club! 
 

Really  interesting set up there, I was also pondering a Porto save and would think of applying something similar. May I ask why going Extremely Wide? 

[Lordluap]

7 hours ago, Pavi said:

2037!!! Take a bow to your commitment to the club! 
 

Really  interesting set up there, I was also pondering a Porto save and would think of applying something similar. May I ask why going Extremely Wide? 

Thanks,  it's been a year long almost journeyman career.  Started in Chile, then to Uruguay, Argentina, Italy, England, Germany, Italy and now back to England.  I had gone 7 seasons winning every game...

Extremely wide is to ensure that the line of 6 really gives the opposition defence a probem.  If they stay narrow and man mark my front 4 (IW's, F9 and AF) then the wingbacks are free.  If the opposition fullbacks move out to close down my wingbacks then my IW's can run cause havoc.  My goals are so evenly spread around the front 4.  It helps that thye're all positionally interchangeable.

Extremely wide also helps with the CM(d) dropping to the right to become the ancillary right-side Centre Back.

[Pavi]

6 hours ago, Lordluap said:

Thanks,  it's been a year long almost journeyman career.  Started in Chile, then to Uruguay, Argentina, Italy, England, Germany, Italy and now back to England.  I had gone 7 seasons winning every game...

Extremely wide is to ensure that the line of 6 really gives the opposition defence a probem.  If they stay narrow and man mark my front 4 (IW's, F9 and AF) then the wingbacks are free.  If the opposition fullbacks move out to close down my wingbacks then my IW's can run cause havoc.  My goals are so evenly spread around the front 4.  It helps that thye're all positionally interchangeable.

Extremely wide also helps with the CM(d) dropping to the right to become the ancillary right-side Centre Back.

Thanks! Makes totally sense, intrigued by trying a CMd in a wide formation.

[Lordluap]

6 minutes ago, Pavi said:

Thanks! Makes totally sense, intrigued by trying a CMd in a wide formation.

See my screenshots from last week.  The right sided player of the diamond/trapezoid in build up is the CM(d).

[Lordluap]

Here's a recent screen shot.  There's another formation to do this 3-1 build up, I'm playing around so will post once done.

[timbom]

I'm struggling to get the 3-1 shape consistently on FM21, has anybody tried it on this years game? The CM(D) seems to push too high and wide for my when we're attacking just leaving the 2 CBs exposed. Has anyone else had any luck? 

[Lordluap]

1 hour ago, timbom said:

I'm struggling to get the 3-1 shape consistently on FM21, has anybody tried it on this years game? The CM(D) seems to push too high and wide for my when we're attacking just leaving the 2 CBs exposed. Has anyone else had any luck? 

But this would be a correct movement, surely?  The purpose of the 3-1 is to aid build up from the back, not add defensive stability?? * Once the move has progressed in to the final 3rd surely you want the support from your CM to aid ball recycling / passing options behind the front line?  otherwise you'd have a flat and dead line of 3 and a line of 6.  You still need some depth and support to your attacks.  I suppose it depends on why you want to build with the 3-1.  If it's to provide defensive cover then just use a back 3 and a central DM surely?  if it's to provide angled passes out from the back to counteract your opposition pressing you then you'd want the initial backward and wide movement from your CM until such time that he isn't needed to fulfil that role and can perform another duty in supporting the attack in the final 3rd then using this sort of set up will work.  I would wager if you watch Ajax or especially Lille you will see similar movements to in-game (perhaps not 100% accurate or every time but certainly enough to make it a very close representation). 

Perhaps you could post some in-match screenshots?

Here's an example from Lille: the CM(d) higher (and wider) in support once the play has progressed:

 

* Sure, having the 3 deeper will aid defensive stability and transitioning but that's not really the reason the concept exists.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Lordluap

[timbom]

Like I 

1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

But this would be a correct movement, surely?  The purpose of the 3-1 is to aid build up from the back, not add defensive stability?? * Once the move has progressed in to the final 3rd surely you want the support from your CM to aid ball recycling / passing options behind the front line?  otherwise you'd have a flat and dead line of 3 and a line of 6.  You still need some depth and support to your attacks.  I suppose it depends on why you want to build with the 3-1.  If it's to provide defensive cover then just use a back 3 and a central DM surely?  if it's to provide angled passes out from the back to counteract your opposition pressing you then you'd want the initial backward and wide movement from your CM until such time that he isn't needed to fulfil that role and can perform another duty in supporting the attack in the final 3rd then using this sort of set up will work.  I would wager if you watch Ajax or especially Lille you will see similar movements to in-game (perhaps not 100% accurate or every time but certainly enough to make it a very close representation). 

Perhaps you could post some in-match screenshots?

Here's an example from Lille: the CM(d) higher (and wider) in support once the play has progressed:

 

* Sure, having the 3 deeper will aid defensive stability and transitioning but that's not really the reason the concept exists.

Sorry, should have said - when the ball in on the opposite side (screenshots below)

Makes total sense when on the side of the ball like the screenshot of Lille. It's working sometimes, not others for me. Like I say it's more about consistency. 

Pjanic is no.8 here. CM(D). 
    

[Lordluap]

Ahh, that makes more sense.  

That said, I think that's decent positioning.  He's covering their 10,  and 12 and is well placed to help with constructing play from left to right flank.  But I do get what you're saying... Sadly the limitations of the Match Engine mechanisms mean we can't get it 100% - like lots of things it's a case of compromising what we want and what we can have.