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13 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Great analysis! Have been. Trying very similar with 4-2-4 shape. But just wondering what makes your attacking players drop off like that? The roaming instructions? Or do you use another instruction for that? Because I noticed that even when on Positive team mentality, most if them tend to stay high up and not drop back much when in possession. I'm playing on FM21 though.


I think it is:

  1. The mentality of the Support duties in relation to the Advanced Forward (Attack).
  2. Roaming from Position means they look for space which is ahead of the defence.
  3. For the Shadow Striker it's that he plays in the AM strata so starts in a deeper position.
  4. At Benfica, Costa and Valentim naturally play a bit deeper and have traits of dropping deep to collect the ball.
Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
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This is a great thread, I’ve tried a few versions with differing results.

- I find with the inverted fb, he tends to sit in front of the closest centre back, ie taking up a dm role, but not shifted to the right/left over the cb. This does fit broadly with one version of how Lille play, albeit you can’t easily switch during the match as you need to set the winger on the same side to be an authentic winger.

- hb works but then you get quick a flat back 3, ie he does slip into the middle of the cbs. But then it’s quite hard to keep the other centre mid as central option. Cm/d works well if he stays wide, with the closest cb on cover holding his position and the furthest cb staying wide. I feel like this doesn’t quite integrate as well as the inverted fb version and it creates a similar problem of how to keep the other cm as a pivot.

 

 

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Here is my attempt: 

image.thumb.png.06b9cee7f7beb22f75f93244ac066447.png

The idea is for us to attack in various ways. 

Centrally, we have a F9 backed up by a SS so we should set lots of rotation from them with the F9 dropping deep with the SS moving higher which in theory, should make it hard to defend those two players.

On the left, we have a Ws (roam from position), MEZs & FBd. The winger offers us width while the Mezzala should look to attack that left half space while the FBd looks to cover behind the two of them. 

On the right, again we want to take attack the same areas but we want to do it differently with a IFs, DLPd & WBs. The IFs should look to attack the half space & get beyond the striker at times with the WBs offering us width with the DLPd providing cover behind both these players. 

As I said, we want to attack the same areas of the field but both sides look to do it differently. 

The FBd, CDd, CDd & DLPd make up a sort of asymmetrical 3-1 in the build up phase which gives us a solid base to build from.

I may switch either the IFs or WBs to an Attacking duty as well as making the FBd a IWBd but that would give me more of a 2-2-6 

Edited by retrodude09
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I think I’ve got this working nicely now, I’ve circled the cm/d. I had to push my wingbacks up otherwise my transitions seemed to leave them behind a bit. I’ve ask got a version where I swap out the right side inverted winger for a raumdeuter. I have my ball playing centre half pushing wide and the other centre half holding his position. The cm\d pushes wide too to make my 3. Both my strikers push wide... I tried to model that on the Galtier approach

6C5A5F62-5C02-49EF-9960-0AE21554E6F9.png

AE63152D-44D6-455C-9177-86AD5EC332D2.jpeg

Edited by Mart44
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Here is an example of the build up working well I feel. My midfield pivot was marked so the cm/d played it into the Trequartista and he has plenty of passing options out wide.

4221EDCB-7779-46B3-AB5A-CFA254FCB192.png

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21 minutes ago, Mart44 said:

I think I’ve got this working nicely now, I’ve circled the cm/d. I had to push my wingbacks up otherwise my transitions seemed to leave them behind a bit. I’ve ask got a version where I swap out the right side inverted winger for a raumdeuter. I have my ball playing centre half pushing wide and the other centre half holding his position. The cm\d pushes wide too to make my 3. Both my strikers push wide... I tried to model that on the Galtier approach

6C5A5F62-5C02-49EF-9960-0AE21554E6F9.png

AE63152D-44D6-455C-9177-86AD5EC332D2.jpeg

Nice.  I really do like this approach.  I think its the best solution for sure.

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Hi all,

I am struggling to make the '1' in the 3-1-6 system work effectively. So I think I am heading towards making a 3-2-5 in possession instead. 

If I can get this lad at the IWB position to work out it could be lovely:

20210203102736_1.jpg.9d3da98e735ca27d5f5ad3c63e3a807c.jpg

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I've been playing a draft to test tactics and this is doing really well so far. 

image.png.c17ead83163d9b45f97e763d488e7738.png image.png.a2781bfc1d5273ed6b66dbe2ce6e932a.png

 

There's quite a few PI's so bear with me here: 

CBs - stay wider. I've noticed that the regista will drop in-between them when needed to help play out, but will maintain the 2-2 when not needed. Either of the DMs will drift out wide when the CWB pushes up to help progress the ball too. 

BWM - Hold position. I don't want this guy all over the place and regista has roam hard coded. This role may still change but it definitely helps press higher up the pitch and cover the regista. 

AM(A) - Roam from position, move into channels 

AML - Roam from position 

AMR - Roam from position and more direct passes 

I've also changed the 'focus play' instructions depending on game state and formation of the oppo but middle is my 'default' 

 

Will get some IG screenshots as they come 

image.png.88e90ba985e70e4c6ff8ad271952df54.png   Draft

image.png.d4baea4c6d289098d46497f70f958afc.png   Barca De Jong Regista, Sergio BWM 

image.png.32940d4598b2c41042f5ae07c39cc5fd.png  Alena Regista, Pjanic BWM

 

 

Edited by timbom
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8 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Hi all,

I am struggling to make the '1' in the 3-1-6 system work effectively. So I think I am heading towards making a 3-2-5 in possession instead. 

If I can get this lad at the IWB position to work out it could be lovely:

20210203102736_1.jpg.9d3da98e735ca27d5f5ad3c63e3a807c.jpg

How is Camavinga moving versus Rice and Henrique? IWB-s is going to move up too much, the longer in possession you are, he could end up sitting around the 18yd box, depending on where the Mez goes.

IWB-d (or FB-d with stay inside) + the CD + BPD with get wide, is the typical attempt at a back 3, without simply having a back 3. And with Camavinga you could easily retrain him as a BPD if you wanted to go that way. Although I am guessing you didn't buy Aarons to not play him.

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3 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

How is Camavinga moving versus Rice and Henrique? IWB-s is going to move up too much, the longer in possession you are, he could end up sitting around the 18yd box, depending on where the Mez goes.

IWB-d (or FB-d with stay inside) + the CD + BPD with get wide, is the typical attempt at a back 3, without simply having a back 3. And with Camavinga you could easily retrain him as a BPD if you wanted to go that way. Although I am guessing you didn't buy Aarons to not play him.

Thank you - that is useful. 

I am still playing around with it and funnily enough, since that post have moved the IWB to a Defend duty for the very reason you suggest. 

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35 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Thank you - that is useful. 

I am still playing around with it and funnily enough, since that post have moved the IWB to a Defend duty for the very reason you suggest. 

Ya I just know from experience ;-)

I use an IWB-S in my 523 to help give me a 3 man midfield and build overloads on the left side and he'll get pretty far up there when given the chance.

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1 hour ago, CaptCanuck said:

How is Camavinga moving versus Rice and Henrique? IWB-s is going to move up too much, the longer in possession you are, he could end up sitting around the 18yd box, depending on where the Mez goes.

IWB-d (or FB-d with stay inside) + the CD + BPD with get wide, is the typical attempt at a back 3, without simply having a back 3. And with Camavinga you could easily retrain him as a BPD if you wanted to go that way. Although I am guessing you didn't buy Aarons to not play him.

Based on my own experience, an IWBd will move into the defensive midfield line, so I think it would look something like this:

BPD (D) - HB (D) - CD (D) 

IWB (D)

                    DLP (S)

Unless this is what you're going for? 

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I am trying something slightly different now. I know it's not strictly the same approach as some of the posts above but I am instead going for

-----------------------------SK/S----------------------------

CWB/S--------CD------------------CD----------CWB/S

-----------------------------HB--------------------------------

-------------DLP/S----------------AP(A)---------------------

IW/A-----------------------------------------------------IF/S

-----------------------------CF/A------------------------------

The CBs have shorter passing and stay wider and the AP(A) is get further forward. The AP(A) is a bit of a punt as I want them to get closer to the lone forward...

I'm hoping it's a simpler approach to get to the same place where by the 3(CD, HB, CD) the 1 is the DLP/s (although might need to move to DLP/D. And the 6 is everyone else.

Completely welcome any views mind!!

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54 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

I am trying something slightly different now. I know it's not strictly the same approach as some of the posts above but I am instead going for

-----------------------------SK/S----------------------------

CWB/S--------CD------------------CD----------CWB/S

-----------------------------HB--------------------------------

-------------DLP/S----------------AP(A)---------------------

IW/A-----------------------------------------------------IF/S

-----------------------------CF/A------------------------------

The CBs have shorter passing and stay wider and the AP(A) is get further forward. The AP(A) is a bit of a punt as I want them to get closer to the lone forward...

I'm hoping it's a simpler approach to get to the same place where by the 3(CD, HB, CD) the 1 is the DLP/s (although might need to move to DLP/D. And the 6 is everyone else.

Completely welcome any views mind!!

I personally would use a CM/a instead of AP/a and make sure PI's on the IW/a and IF/s are Sit Narrower.  Other than that it should work to a certain degree.

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3 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

I personally would use a CM/a instead of AP/a and make sure PI's on the IW/a and IF/s are Sit Narrower.  Other than that it should work to a certain degree.

To  a certain degree as in not very well? Welcome any other suggestions of course

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54 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

To  a certain degree as in not very well? Welcome any other suggestions of course

Sorry, I mean it should work, but obviously needs to be analysed to see if it works how you want it it and tweaked accordingly.

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The thing I really can't get clear in my head is how best to use the three pillars of tempo, passing length and width.

I know an earlier post suggested 'Very Wide' but in my experience that tends to hamper the ability to keep the ball?

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7 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

The thing I really can't get clear in my head is how best to use the three pillars of tempo, passing length and width.

I know an earlier post suggested 'Very Wide' but in my experience that tends to hamper the ability to keep the ball?

My understanding is:

Tempo dictates how quickly you try to  move the ball from back to front 

passing length is the sort of ‘risk’ of passes. Shorter passes are safer but offer less penetration and more direct passing is less safe but offers more penetration 

Width  is how far your players will be spaced horizontally. The idea of wider play may be to stretch the opposition to create space, but passing is then more difficult because of the distance. 

More narrow width keeps your players closer together, making it easier to keep the ball, but can potentially be easier to defend against as it allows the opposition to stay compact. 

happy to be corrected if people don’t agree though, this is just my take on it 

 

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6 minutes ago, timbom said:

Tempo dictates how quickly you try to  move the ball from back to front

Tempo does dictate how quickly you move the ball around (between players), but not necessarily from back to front. Because the latter also depends on the team mentality as well as selection of roles and duties (which for me is the most important aspect of any tactic).

Both tempo and passing are affected by the team mentality (whether or not it's displayed in the tactical creator screen). A higher team mentality thus automatically means the proportionally higher tempo as well as proportionally more appetite for passing risk (e.g. short passing under the positive mentality will be slightly different than short passing under the balanced, and so on).

Last but not least, passing directness (length) also affects tempo. So if you increase your passing length from shorter to standard or direct, that will make your tempo a bit faster as well, even if you haven't even touched the tempo instruction at all. And vice versa, of course - from direct to shorter will automatically make the tempo slightly slower. 

14 minutes ago, timbom said:

More narrow width keeps your players closer together, making it easier to keep the ball, but can potentially be easier to defend against as it allows the opposition to stay compact

Absolutely :thup:

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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Tempo does dictate how quickly you move the ball around (between players), but not necessarily from back to front. Because the latter also depends on the team mentality as well as selection of roles and duties (which for me is the most important aspect of any tactic).

Both tempo and passing are affected by the team mentality (whether or not it's displayed in the tactical creator screen). A higher team mentality thus automatically means the proportionally higher tempo as well as proportionally more appetite for passing risk (e.g. short passing under the positive mentality will be slightly different than short passing under the balanced, and so on).

Last but not least, passing directness (length) also affects tempo. So if you increase your passing length from shorter to standard or direct, that will make your tempo a bit faster as well, even if you haven't even touched the tempo instruction at all. And vice versa, of course - from direct to shorter will automatically make the tempo slightly slower. 

Absolutely :thup:

Lovely, thanks both.

Still plugging away over here...

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22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Both tempo and passing are affected by the team mentality (whether or not it's displayed in the tactical creator screen). A higher team mentality thus automatically means the proportionally higher tempo as well as proportionally more appetite for passing risk (e.g. short passing under the positive mentality will be slightly different than short passing under the balanced, and so on).

 

Is this for real? I had no idea...so now tempo means two different things based on the mentality?

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51 minutes ago, steakfaced said:

Is this for real? I had no idea...so now tempo means two different things based on the mentality?

Yes, it's real. Team mentality affects all other instructions, including passing risk/directness and tempo. And it's not just now but has been so for years.

So any mentality change automatically means a proportional adjustment of all other instructions (both in and out of possession). 

Higher mentalities mean more appetite for risk and more freedom of movement and creativity when attacking + more aggressive behavior when defending. And the opposite for lower mentalities.

But the team mentality does NOT define your core (basic) style of play.

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Thanks for all the help everyone - I've finally got a system that I'm happy with (pretty much). If anyone has any more suggestions or updates keep em coming! This thread has been great 

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55 minutes ago, timbom said:

Thanks for all the help everyone - I've finally got a system that I'm happy with (pretty much). If anyone has any more suggestions or updates keep em coming! This thread has been great 

So what is it?!

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1 hour ago, steakfaced said:

So what is it?!

 

On 03/02/2021 at 20:20, timbom said:

I've been playing a draft to test tactics and this is doing really well so far. 

image.png.c17ead83163d9b45f97e763d488e7738.png image.png.a2781bfc1d5273ed6b66dbe2ce6e932a.png

 

There's quite a few PI's so bear with me here: 

CBs - stay wider. I've noticed that the regista will drop in-between them when needed to help play out, but will maintain the 2-2 when not needed. Either of the DMs will drift out wide when the CWB pushes up to help progress the ball too. 

BWM - Hold position. I don't want this guy all over the place and regista has roam hard coded. This role may still change but it definitely helps press higher up the pitch and cover the regista. 

AM(A) - Roam from position, move into channels 

AML - Roam from position 

AMR - Roam from position and more direct passes 

I've also changed the 'focus play' instructions depending on game state and formation of the oppo but middle is my 'default' 

 

Will get some IG screenshots as they come 

image.png.88e90ba985e70e4c6ff8ad271952df54.png   Draft

image.png.d4baea4c6d289098d46497f70f958afc.png   Barca De Jong Regista, Sergio BWM 

image.png.32940d4598b2c41042f5ae07c39cc5fd.png  Alena Regista, Pjanic BWM

 

 

This one! Still not 100% on the BWM but feel that he gives me good balance so keeping it as is for the time being 

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On 13/01/2021 at 17:58, Lordluap said:

2.PNG

This is driving me mad but can someone remind me how you get to this nice little graphic? I thought it 'All Combinations' under Passes but apparently not..

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2 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

This is driving me mad but can someone remind me how you get to this nice little graphic? I thought it 'All Combinations' under Passes but apparently not..

It's bugged in FM21 - has been since beta. No ETA on when it'll get fixed, so assume it won't until FM22.

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54 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

It's bugged in FM21 - has been since beta. No ETA on when it'll get fixed, so assume it won't until FM22.

Wow that's so frustrating. I'm still on 19 and this is my favorite thing to look at and adjust my tactics from.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 21/02/2021 at 13:17, Mike_Cardinal said:

Does a Half Back always drop in between the CBs rather than on the outside - even if you have them positioned off-centre with 'Stay Wider' and a CB on Cover behind them?

Not tried this exact set-up but I haven't been able to get that movement in this years game so far. With stay wider in my attempts they only 'stayed wider' when they pushed up 

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On 21.2.2021 at 14:17, Mike_Cardinal said:

Does a Half Back always drop in between the CBs rather than on the outside - even if you have them positioned off-centre with 'Stay Wider' and a CB on Cover behind them?

In build-up he lines up between both CB without stay wider, if you put a DLPs next to him, he would be a little more advanced, gives you a nice shape to combine your way out of an opponent's high press

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So this is something I've been recently trying to recreate, the only way I got it to work more consistently is to move right CB to central spot, LCB is given the stay-wide instruction just like RCM. I just don't see my players forming that shape otherwise.

CM-D on the right will drop deep, and sometimes cover that empty spot in defence.

722329210_3-1-62.png.50f718b2ee0c83b75dd12c0b609c48e5.png

Inked3-1-6_LI.jpg.e6f70442f0f93deeaa19551c288e6723.jpg

Average positions with ball.

1064788979_avgpositionwball.png.d2d07bde9a9d89f9a02bc777fe5bf2c9.png

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