Broken ME?

[shaunwwfc]

Please find attached my setup.

Is there a bug in which centre halves lump the ball up the field no matter what instruction you set? As you can see I have every possible instruction set in order to get centre halves to pass it short. You may notice I am using BPD but that is only after my experiment with CBs failed.

I am literally pulling my hair out.

Can someone please help. Generally it is the preset Control Possession, which again should lead itself to centre halves passing out from  the back.

 

Another theme I have noticed is literally no crosses able to make it past the first defender. Whether that by WBs, Wingers, Inside Forwards or even central midfielders that get into crossing areas. So frustrating when you have watched your side create a really good opening, for no balls to enter the penalty area. This ME just feels horrible. The only goals I seem to see (both from oppositon and my own side) is stunning individual efforts.

[nidhar.ram]

2 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

Please find attached my setup.

Is there a bug in which centre halves lump the ball up the field no matter what instruction you set? As you can see I have every possible instruction set in order to get centre halves to pass it short. You may notice I am using BPD but that is only after my experiment with CBs failed.

I am literally pulling my hair out.

Can someone please help. Generally it is the preset Control Possession, which again should lead itself to centre halves passing out from  the back.

You are playing out of defense with three BPD who are all instructed to take more risks. Their general inclination is to look a riskier pass than a safer/ conservative pass to a near by team mate. Composure & Decisions are key for BPD when it comes to the type of pass they will play.

[shaunwwfc]

3 minutes ago, nidhar.ram said:

You are playing out of defense with three BPD who are all instructed to take more risks. Their general inclination is to look a riskier pass than a safer/ conservative pass to a near by team mate. Composure & Decisions are key for BPD when it comes to the type of pass they will play.

Thanks for the response

My first 10 or so games I played with 3 normal CBs as I said. I decided to change to BPD in the hope it would stop these soul destroying punts into thin air.

[frukox]

51 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

Thanks for the response

My first 10 or so games I played with 3 normal CBs as I said. I decided to change to BPD in the hope it would stop these soul destroying punts into thin air.

Generally one BPD is enough to play out of defence against a high press. Just make sure he has the trait of bring ball out of defence, play direct passes, if possible run with ball to get the best out of him to unlock defences(assign some early runners in the front line) so he needs good balance, passing, decisions,composure, first touch, vision, acceleration and some dribbling in addition to the attributes of a normal CD. The rest of the backline is fine when they have good composure and first touch.

Edited January 1, 2021 by frukox

[Os]

Also, they need players to play short to. both of your WB's are up the pitch and also 1 of your midfielders is on walkabout.

I play out of the back with both CB's on CD defend.

I also think it helps if you make sure you schedule in some play out the back training and General possesion, my boys played a lot better after I did this.

p.s against 2 striker formations don't distribute to them, distribute to the Wb's

[shaunwwfc]

Thanks for the replies. All noted.

Another theme I have noticed is literally no crosses able to make it past the first defender. Whether that by WBs, Wingers, Inside Forwards or even central midfielders that get into crossing areas. This ME just feels horrible.

[DeepThought]

17 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

Thanks for the replies. All noted.

Another theme I have noticed is literally no crosses able to make it past the first defender. Whether that by WBs, Wingers, Inside Forwards or even central midfielders that get into crossing areas. This ME just feels horrible.

It sounds like your players just don't have the space to deliver the cross successfully. Just thinking about what might cause that from your posted tactic, with the higher line and lower tempo, the opposition will possibly be far enough back/have enough time to get a good position. With the false 9 being deeper you're unlikely to be whipping crosses behind the defence but through them, which is going to be the direction/closer to the direction the opposition defenders are already in making blocking them easier. I could be wrong, but that would be my sensible guess. 

Personally, I had a 4231 based around width and wing play and it was extremely effective at delivering crosses so I know it's perfectly possible within the ME. I think at one point I had something like 16 / 38 goals (if memory serves) from crosses off the left. 

[shaunwwfc]

1 minute ago, DeepThought said:

It sounds like your players just don't have the space to deliver the cross successfully. Just thinking about what might cause that from your posted tactic, with the higher line and lower tempo, the opposition will possibly be far enough back/have enough time to get a good position. With the false 9 being deeper you're unlikely to be whipping crosses behind the defence but through them, which is going to be the direction/closer to the direction the opposition defenders are already in making blocking them easier. I could be wrong, but that would be my sensible guess. 

Personally, I had a 4231 based around width and wing play and it was extremely effective at delivering crosses so I know it's perfectly possible within the ME. I think at one point I had something like 16 / 38 goals (if memory serves) from crosses off the left. 

I am now experimenting with the preset fluid counter attacking tactic. I am using this in Touch so there is no TF. Seems very well suited with Wolves with there current style of play. I have used this in previous editions and it has always worked well. 

I am just at a loss really. We have played three games, 2 away at Tottenham and Man Utd and Chelsea at home. All drawing, 1-1 x2 and 0-0. On paper good results and we have looked solid and at times got into some really good positions. But the crossing is so dreadful its making me cringe, aswell as the overall play. We appear to go braindead once entering the final third. The front three are getting themselves into some superb positions but cannot seem to pick each other out. Instead they pass it back, attempting to make an even harder pass. Raul has barely touched the ball.

After the week I have had trying to get into this and going back to my "goto" preset fluid counter system in FMT which has always worked in 19 and 20.. I am convinced this ME has serious issues which is such a shame as on BETA it appeared to be one of the best, I hate to be one that comes across like this. All goals I have scored or conceded are individual moments of genius. Players cannot dribble or pass and as I have mentioned the crossing is beyond frustrating. Traore who as we know is a beast cannot beat one player.

[DeepThought]

28 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

I am now experimenting with the preset fluid counter attacking tactic. I am using this in Touch so there is no TF. Seems very well suited with Wolves with there current style of play. I have used this in previous editions and it has always worked well. 

I am just at a loss really. We have played three games, 2 away at Tottenham and Man Utd and Chelsea at home. All drawing, 1-1 x2 and 0-0. On paper good results and we have looked solid and at times got into some really good positions. But the crossing is so dreadful its making me cringe, aswell as the overall play. We appear to go braindead once entering the final third. The front three are getting themselves into some superb positions but cannot seem to pick each other out. Instead they pass it back, attempting to make an even harder pass. Raul has barely touched the ball.

After the week I have had trying to get into this and going back to my "goto" preset fluid counter system in FMT which has always worked in 19 and 20.. I am convinced this ME has serious issues which is such a shame as on BETA it appeared to be one of the best, I hate to be one that comes across like this. All goals I have scored or conceded are individual moments of genius. Players cannot dribble or pass and as I have mentioned the crossing is beyond frustrating. Traore who as we know is a beast cannot beat one player.

I think the thing to remember about crosses is that there quite low % at the best of times. I can't remember the exact figures but it's something like 3 out of every 4 crosses don't meet their target with only half of what does actually creating a shot on goal and then a smaller percentage of them going in.

What is it about the crossing that is dreadful and cringe ? Still hitting the first man or something else ? Also, what does going brain dead look like for you?

You've got 3 good results there against some of the best defenders in the league. I wouldn't be overly harsh. I know you say they can't pick each other out, but your playing narrow in this new screenshot with two narrow strikers. The opposition defence is possibly crammed in there with you too and they might struggle for space to find each other conceivably (obviously I've not played it). You've got that cautious mentality, meaning you are taking that little less risk and I would suggest that includes passing it back to retain possession/play a little safer and build a second attack if that initial one is low percentage. It might be against lesser defences this is more fruitful, but let's be honest you've scored in 2 out 3 games here. Especially that 2-2, I'd be more concerned I conceded 2 goals as opposed to not scoring a third. 

I've got to be honest I can't see anything in this thread which suggests the ME having serious issues. Your initial concerns have been well addressed by others and I feel like the one related to crossing is explained by my last reply. Coupled with my own experience of being successful with crosses I'm not convinced the issues you're having are ME related. That isn't too say some of them might not be ME related (I can't see what you see when you play), but I think there's perfectly logical explanations still plausible for your problems.

Again, I could be wrong and there's far better contributors on here I would secede too. I'm just trying to offer another perspective because there have been explanations to most of your concerns within your set up. 

Edit: phrasing.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by DeepThought

[CaptCanuck]

3 hours ago, shaunwwfc said:

Thanks for the response

My first 10 or so games I played with 3 normal CBs as I said. I decided to change to BPD in the hope it would stop these soul destroying punts into thin air.

I use 3 BPDs in my back 5, link below - with Brighton's 2020 side (Webster, Dunk, White, Veltman) so good on the ball but no superstars - and I do not get many aimless punts. I do not have Counter selected, but otherwise not much different to you. I am still tweaking from a defensive POV and have now gone Co-Co-De across the back 3 to mitigate OTT longballs. Like you I observe CDs hoofing it way more than BPDs, of course YMMV.

In regards to blocked crosses, it's not as bad as the first release, but still poor IMHO. To mitigate that I am trying my WB-a on WB-s, with cross early selected. IMHO crossing functionality is poorly simulated at this point, and if you were trying to have wing play as a key component of your tactic, although it could be the way it is represented (running to goal line, stopping and kicking it into defender and/or sometimes stopping and waiting for defender to get there to block it) to get the stats more like IRL.

It will need some work based on any tactic you want to use from a previous version - good luck!

Edited January 1, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[shaunwwfc]

37 minutes ago, DeepThought said:

I think the thing to remember about crosses is that there quite low % at the best of times. I can't remember the exact figures but it's something like 3 out of every 4 crosses don't meet their target with only half of what does actually creating a shot on goal and then a smaller percentage of them going in.

What is it about the crossing that is dreadful and cringe ? Still hitting the first man or something else ? Also, what does going brain dead look like for you?

You've got 3 good results there against some of the best defenders in the league. I wouldn't be overly harsh. I know you say they can't pick each other out, but your playing narrow in this new screenshot with two narrow strikers. The opposition defence is possibly crammed in there with you too and they might struggle for space to find each other conceivably (obviously I've not played it). You've got that cautious mentality, meaning you are taking that little less risk and I would suggest that includes passing it back to retain possession/play a little safer and build a second attack if that initial one is low percentage. It might be against lesser defences this is more fruitful, but let's be honest you've scored in 2 out 3 games here. Especially that 2-2, I'd be more concerned I conceded 2 goals as opposed to not scoring a third. 

I've got to be honest I can't see anything in this thread which suggests the ME having serious issues. Your initial concerns have been well addressed by others and I feel like the one related to crossing is explained by my last reply. Coupled with my own experience of being successful with crosses I'm not convinced the issues you're having are ME related. That isn't too say some of them might not be ME related (I can't see what you see when you play), but I think there's perfectly logical explanations still plausible for your problems.

Again, I could be wrong and there's far better contributors on here I would secede too. I'm just trying to offer another perspective because there have been explanations to most of your concerns within your set up. 

Edit: phrasing.

 

Thanks again @DeepThought for such a detailed response, it is much appreciated. 

I take your point regarding the percentage of crosses. It is more the frustration behind the lack of/blocked crosses. For example, we will have a lovely passage of play, my DLP (Neves) will release it to Marcal and he will have the perfect opportunity to whip it in with two forwards in a good position.. and almost delay it perfectly to give the FB chance to reposition. By which point the chance is gone altogether, or the cross is blocked. 

The "braindead" description.. apologies for that. I was having a moment of just getting frustrated. But with that I was referring more to the interchange between our front three. There will be an obvious pass to say Jimenez for Neto to play and he will simply misplace it or not play it at all. Dribbling seems a really strange one on FM21 too. In the likes of Neto, Traore, Podence.. we have players there who should really be making more inroads. Dont get me wrong, I am not expecting them to be machines, but they seem to get tackled at there first opportunity more often than not. I have noticed this with opposition players too, I have began studied there movement.. it would appear the AI manager has the same frustrations as me!

It is just very frustrating to watch at the moment. I want to impose my idea which is very akin that to Nuno at Wolves, but it seems very difficult to achieve. The ME doesn't seem to be much more progressive as 20, of which I found frustrating the minute I tried it, and reverted back to 19 (which was far from perfect). It seems to consist of goals from set pieces or individual efforts. Well worked goals seem difficult to come by.

[shaunwwfc]

43 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

I use 3 BPDs in my back 5, link below - with Brighton's 2020 side (Webster, Dunk, White, Veltman) so good on the ball but no superstars - and I do not get many aimless punts. I do not have Counter selected, but otherwise not much different to you. I am still tweaking from a defensive POV and have now gone Co-Co-De across the back 3 to mitigate OTT longballs. Like you I observe CDs hoofing it way more than BPDs, of course YMMV.

In regards to blocked crosses, it's not as bad as the first release, but still poor IMHO. To mitigate that I am trying my WB-a on WB-s, with cross early selected. IMHO crossing functionality is poorly simulated at this point, and if you were trying to have wing play as a key component of your tactic, although it could be the way it is represented (running to goal line, stopping and kicking it into defender and/or sometimes stopping and waiting for defender to get there to block it) to get the stats more like IRL.

It will need some work based on any tactic you want to use from a previous version - good luck!

Hi @CaptCanuck thanks for the response

Your thread is very interesting. I had a quick browse and only saw the screenshot from the OP. Going a back five is very interesting. I tried actually pushing up the WBs to the MR/ML strata and making them DW. Attacking wise I preferred it, but they didn't track back how I liked, sometimes not even at all. I have never experimenting placing them in a back five though so that is food for thought.

Aside from that screenshot and the other changes you have mentioned, have you diverted much from the OP? Our ideas seem very similar.

[Obaaa]

14 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

For example, we will have a lovely passage of play, my DLP (Neves) will release it to Marcal and he will have the perfect opportunity to whip it in with two forwards in a good position.. and almost delay it perfectly to give the FB chance to reposition. By which point the chance is gone altogether, or the cross is blocked.

Nothing can be done about this as far as I am aware. Tried lots of different things and it just seems to be a quirk of the ME. Probably an attempt to reduce no. of goals from crosses, but it's just frustrating. I barely use the wings now.

[DeepThought]

43 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

Thanks again @DeepThought for such a detailed response, it is much appreciated. 

I take your point regarding the percentage of crosses. It is more the frustration behind the lack of/blocked crosses. For example, we will have a lovely passage of play, my DLP (Neves) will release it to Marcal and he will have the perfect opportunity to whip it in with two forwards in a good position.. and almost delay it perfectly to give the FB chance to reposition. By which point the chance is gone altogether, or the cross is blocked. 

The "braindead" description.. apologies for that. I was having a moment of just getting frustrated. But with that I was referring more to the interchange between our front three. There will be an obvious pass to say Jimenez for Neto to play and he will simply misplace it or not play it at all. Dribbling seems a really strange one on FM21 too. In the likes of Neto, Traore, Podence.. we have players there who should really be making more inroads. Dont get me wrong, I am not expecting them to be machines, but they seem to get tackled at there first opportunity more often than not. I have noticed this with opposition players too, I have began studied there movement.. it would appear the AI manager has the same frustrations as me!

It is just very frustrating to watch at the moment. I want to impose my idea which is very akin that to Nuno at Wolves, but it seems very difficult to achieve. The ME doesn't seem to be much more progressive as 20, of which I found frustrating the minute I tried it, and reverted back to 19 (which was far from perfect). It seems to consist of goals from set pieces or individual efforts. Well worked goals seem difficult to come by.

No worries and I do get the frustration for sure. I wish I had more than a passing knowledge on Nuno's style to offer something beyond replying to your comments. 

If that's happening with the AI as well as you that's more indicative of it being an inclination of the ME (from what I understand). I'm thinking about it but I'm not sure I've noticed it - that said the only time I'm interested in dribbling is when I'm looking to instigate deep counters, otherwise dribbling is more just an option then a design for me. Going to pay attention to it a little more now though you mention it. 

With Marcal, in your first tactic I might have said the lower tempo had an effect but obviously that's not the case in the second. Maybe the fact Marcal is so one-footed makes a difference and it's the time taken getting it into the left foot ? Like maybe he's receiving it on the right and that's part of the issue ? But I'm just spit balling ideas to be helpful. I'm honestly not sure on that one. 

Edit: after this comment I went to play a game. I scored two goals. The first was a one on one with the RB, my man dribbled past, quickly whipped in a cross which my striker got on the end of. The second was a quick passing 15 touch team goal which eventually unlocked my RM! 

Edited January 1, 2021 by DeepThought

[shaunwwfc]

3 hours ago, DeepThought said:

No worries and I do get the frustration for sure. I wish I had more than a passing knowledge on Nuno's style to offer something beyond replying to your comments. 

If that's happening with the AI as well as you that's more indicative of it being an inclination of the ME (from what I understand). I'm thinking about it but I'm not sure I've noticed it - that said the only time I'm interested in dribbling is when I'm looking to instigate deep counters, otherwise dribbling is more just an option then a design for me. Going to pay attention to it a little more now though you mention it. 

With Marcal, in your first tactic I might have said the lower tempo had an effect but obviously that's not the case in the second. Maybe the fact Marcal is so one-footed makes a difference and it's the time taken getting it into the left foot ? Like maybe he's receiving it on the right and that's part of the issue ? But I'm just spit balling ideas to be helpful. I'm honestly not sure on that one. 

Edit: after this comment I went to play a game. I scored two goals. The first was a one on one with the RB, my man dribbled past, quickly whipped in a cross which my striker got on the end of. The second was a quick passing 15 touch team goal which eventually unlocked my RM! 

After playing for almost 2 weeks now, both standard FM and FMT with no TF - I have genuinely decided to put the game away and decide the ME is just not for me. It says something when I am winning games (albeit, 1-0s, 2-1s etc) but not enjoying what I am seeing on the pitch. One of the first things I want to achieve is implement my own unique playing style. It seems to me no matter what playing style you seem to want to implement, generally the themes will be the same, of which are;

- CBs/GKs ignoring any instructions to pass out from the back and insist on long, aimless punts.

- WBs/Wingers either running into blind alleys or not getting the ball past the first man.

- Dribbling just not looking or resulting right. So many times players such as Neto/Traore/Podence, all top dribblers, not beating one man

- Movement in the final third absolutely non existent. So many times my build up play is WBs doing what I have said in my second point, while I can see my front three just stood in the penalty area making no runs

- When the forwards do get the ball in the penalty area, no attempt is made to get past the DFs to get a shot on goal, all you know is going to happen is the dreaded B word - block.

- Most goals coming either from setpiece or an individual cracker.

What does make me feel a little bit better, is that from reading through the feedback threads and ME section, there appears to be many users reporting the same error. What is disappointing, is that BETA looked very good and they appear to have took the game a step back to 20. I actually enjoyed the ME on 20 to this which is probably the biggest criticsm I can give it.

[DarJ]

9 hours ago, shaunwwfc said:

Another theme I have noticed is literally no crosses able to make it past the first defender

If you're having that problem it's definitely because the player doesn't have support

[DeepThought]

36 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

After playing for almost 2 weeks now, both standard FM and FMT with no TF - I have genuinely decided to put the game away and decide the ME is just not for me. It says something when I am winning games (albeit, 1-0s, 2-1s etc) but not enjoying what I am seeing on the pitch. One of the first things I want to achieve is implement my own unique playing style. It seems to me no matter what playing style you seem to want to implement, generally the themes will be the same, of which are;

- CBs/GKs ignoring any instructions to pass out from the back and insist on long, aimless punts.

- WBs/Wingers either running into blind alleys or not getting the ball past the first man.

- Dribbling just not looking or resulting right. So many times players such as Neto/Traore/Podence, all top dribblers, not beating one man

- Movement in the final third absolutely non existent. So many times my build up play is WBs doing what I have said in my second point, while I can see my front three just stood in the penalty area making no runs

- When the forwards do get the ball in the penalty area, no attempt is made to get past the DFs to get a shot on goal, all you know is going to happen is the dreaded B word - block.

- Most goals coming either from setpiece or an individual cracker.

What does make me feel a little bit better, is that from reading through the feedback threads and ME section, there appears to be many users reporting the same error. What is disappointing, is that BETA looked very good and they appear to have took the game a step back to 20. I actually enjoyed the ME on 20 to this which is probably the biggest criticsm I can give it.

Fair enough, definitely no one playing anything when you get no enjoyment from it. That's the reason I stopped buying FIFA and PES. 

I know the ME is not without its flaws (what game is). I have seen some stuff in the bug section too, such as the crossing stuff, though as I say my experience has been a little different for whatever reason and I do think it is possible to get it working to some degree otherwise I have no idea how I've managed it. Maybe I just don't pay enough attention (because although I'm not bad or inattentive, I certainly don't have the eye many of the excellent contributors on here do) but I certainly don't need to rely on set pieces or individual crackers, I can get crosses off (both of which I mentioned in my edit to my last post), I create lovely movement in the final third etc. 

I think that's likely is there is a combination of some ME related work alongside how your set up. For example, take the long balls. Not so much cb, but I've got an incling that my goalkeepers tendancy to hit long balls is a little excessive and against my instrcutions (though I'm not yet sure how much I'm at fault for). But I look at your initial tactic and (as others already mentioned) it contains 3 bpd who all take more risk and will ping they ball up, a dlp (who will come deeper with play out of defence) who are great for pinging balls up, a sweeper keeper (who's description tells you they'll play counter attack balls). It's hard to blame the ME when there are multiple very good causes on display. Maybe there is an ME flaw regarding that distribution, but it would exist in that set up regardless quite possibly, and it likely exacerbates the issue from a minor annoyance to a rather large problem for you.

Anyway, I won't go on as you've obviously made the decision to put it to bed. I hope whatever you move onto (older iteration of the game or a different game) you have fun. Happy new year ! 

Edit: phrasing / typing mistakes

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by DeepThought

[Guest]

I mentioned this in another thread but I see zero issues with the BPD's or crossing in game, I will admit the goalie passing does frustrate me because although my goalie has a 92%pass rate he still tries long kicks on occasion despite having horrible passing and kicking attributes. If Connor Coady however is just lumping the ball up field then I would start analysing why he is doing that because I use two BPD'ers in my game and neither of them ever do that and Coady has the attributes to carry it out easily and that I would suggest it is related to your tactics.

For me there are three issues with your system:

1. Glaring tactical issues: Yes I realise these are the pre-sets but just one instance is wanting wide players to beat defenders then taking a narrower setting like cautious and making it even more narrower and making both your wide players inside forwards and essentially have them dribble in to the congested areas of the midfield/defence where literally none of them have the mental or technical ability to do that, and it's made worse by asking these very limited players to do that at a higher tempo. 

One other point is your wingers are all very one footed which is not desirable in IF's for me. In my system my two IF's are responsible for anything between a quarter and a third of all my key pass attempts so being limited technically and mentally is a horrible combination when asking them to move in to congested space and playing off other attackers or midfielders. 

2. Glaring personnel issues: Whoever handed out the attributes to Wolves was very unkind in the mentals department for a lot of players, especially the ones you mentioned, or maybe they got it spot on I don't know irl. Adama Traore is not fit for purpose imo and he would be the first out the door, beyond pace and dribbling he is literally a poor FM PL player and for me you're exacerbating that situation by making him an IF where I can only see one thing happening , him turning the ball over repeatedly  and your transition being ruined or what's worse teams being able to counter you straight away. If I had to keep Traore he would be be a situational player for me. Late in games when teams are trying to chase a goal and his pace and dribbling would be ideal against tired defenders who are pushing high up.

3: Your attacking roles: Who do you want as your primary goal scorer? To me with that setup it's Neto and Traore and they are massively unequipped to do that which is exactly why you are having issues scoring.  If I looked at the Wolves squad at the beginning of a game I would look at the people who I want scoring my goals and start a system from there. If I am wedded to a certain system then it would be house clearing time and finding players that can play in my system. 

If I was wedded to the players then I would create a tactic that played to their strengths and keep it simple. So we need two scorers because we won't really have much help in the box from midfield, so Silva and Jimenez are my primary scorers in a two man system. Traore, Podence and Neto as traditional wingers who will still provide a presence in the box when they don't have the ball and can help distract defenders. The two midfielders around the box ready to use their brilliant long shots attributes if the the chance presents itself. Two fullbacks who are quite good defensively and can provide good support but will not need to be too adventurous. And with that pace on the wings I would absolutely set up overloads for those wonderful midfielders to exploit. I would want to see this more often than not.

This is alo the exact scenario I would want, Traore, Neto or Podence in,  isolated one on one  or even free thanks to an overload. Two strikers and the other winger primed in the box the ball carrier beats his man with ease cuts in to draw another defender away making it 4vs3 in the box and then goal. It's achievable and can be kept simple and I hope you find your verve again and take a more pragmatic approach because any ME problems there are no where near as extreme as you are suggesting. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Os]

3 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I mentioned this in another thread but I see zero issues with the BPD's or crossing in game, I will admit the goalie passing does frustrate me because although my goalie has a 92%pass rate he still tries long kicks on occasion despite having horrible passing and kicking attributes. If Connor Coady however is just lumping the ball up field then I would start analysing why he is doing that because I use two BPD'ers in my game and neither of them ever do that and Coady has the attributes to carry it out easily and that I would suggest it is related to your tactics.

For me there are three issues with your system:

1. Glaring tactical issues: Yes I realise these are the pre-sets but just one instance is wanting wide players to beat defenders then taking a narrower setting like cautious and making it even more narrower and making both your wide players inside forwards and essentially have them dribble in to the congested areas of the midfield/defence where literally none of them have the mental or technical ability to do that, and it's made worse by asking these very limited players to do that at a higher tempo. 

One other point is your wingers are all very one footed which is not desirable in IF's for me. In my system my two IF's are responsible for anything between a quarter and a third of all my key pass attempts so being limited technically and mentally is a horrible combination when asking them to move in to congested space and playing off other attackers or midfielders. 

2. Glaring personnel issues: Whoever handed out the attributes to Wolves was very unkind in the mentals department for a lot of players, especially the ones you mentioned, or maybe they got it spot on I don't know irl. Adama Traore is not fit for purpose imo and he would be the first out the door, beyond pace and dribbling he is literally a poor FM PL player and for me you're exacerbating that situation by making him an IF where I can only see one thing happening , him turning the ball over repeatedly  and your transition being ruined or what's worse teams being able to counter you straight away. If I had to keep Traore he would be be a situational player for me. Late in games when teams are trying to chase a goal and his pace and dribbling would be ideal against tired defenders who are pushing high up.

3: Your attacking roles: Who do you want as your primary goal scorer? To me with that setup it's Neto and Traore and they are massively unequipped to do that which is exactly why you are having issues scoring.  If I looked at the Wolves squad at the beginning of a game I would look at the people who I want scoring my goals and start a system from there. If I am wedded to a certain system then it would be house clearing time and finding players that can play in my system. 

If I was wedded to the players then I would create a tactic that played to their strengths and keep it simple. So we need two scorers because we won't really have much help in the box from midfield, so Silva and Jimenez are my primary scorers in a two man system. Traore, Podence and Neto as traditional wingers who will still provide a presence in the box when they don't have the ball and can help distract defenders. The two midfielders around the box ready to use their brilliant long shots attributes if the the chance presents itself. Two fullbacks who are quite good defensively and can provide good support but will not need to be too adventurous. And with that pace on the wings I would absolutely set up overloads for those wonderful midfielders to exploit. I would want to see this more often than not.

This is alo the exact scenario I would want, Traore, Neto or Podence in,  isolated one on one  or even free thanks to an overload. Two strikers and the other winger primed in the box the ball carrier beats his man with ease cuts in to draw another defender away making it 4vs3 in the box and then goal. It's achievable and can be kept simple and I hope you find your verve again and take a more pragmatic approach because any ME problems there are no where near as extreme as you are suggesting. 

 

Very good post, nails it for me.

[Guest]

I actually just looked up Coadys PPM's too and he has "Tries Long Range Passes" which would be a big issue for me. A BPD with that PPM bypassing that midfield often would have me pulling out  my hair. There is no width and and no runners behind the defence to make that scenario worthwhile so he will literally bypass that very talented midfield and aim mostly for Jimenez who despite his height and heading will more than likely be swamped or have to hold the ball up which begs the question of why do it in the first place. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[frukox]

19 hours ago, shaunwwfc said:

I am now experimenting with the preset fluid counter attacking tactic. I am using this in Touch so there is no TF. Seems very well suited with Wolves with there current style of play. I have used this in previous editions and it has always worked well. 

I am just at a loss really. We have played three games, 2 away at Tottenham and Man Utd and Chelsea at home. All drawing, 1-1 x2 and 0-0. On paper good results and we have looked solid and at times got into some really good positions. But the crossing is so dreadful its making me cringe, aswell as the overall play. We appear to go braindead once entering the final third. The front three are getting themselves into some superb positions but cannot seem to pick each other out. Instead they pass it back, attempting to make an even harder pass. Raul has barely touched the ball.

After the week I have had trying to get into this and going back to my "goto" preset fluid counter system in FMT which has always worked in 19 and 20.. I am convinced this ME has serious issues which is such a shame as on BETA it appeared to be one of the best, I hate to be one that comes across like this. All goals I have scored or conceded are individual moments of genius. Players cannot dribble or pass and as I have mentioned the crossing is beyond frustrating. Traore who as we know is a beast cannot beat one player.

Mate, I love this formation. It has the potential of deadliest counterattacks while protecting halfspaces pretty well with three CBs despite lacking numbers in the middle, orienting us towards a more direct approach. I don't know Wolves on FM21 but on FM20, they can be a hard nut to crack. Is your real strength on your wings? That's the question. You need to think about different ways of creating chances. Now you just have one which is easy to defend just by defending wide and attacking with numbers down both flanks, thus creating good amount of space in the middle for the opposition to play through your defence. This kind of a system lends itself to direct plays better due to lacking numbers in the midfield so removing shorter passing could be a good idea. Is your team really one of the best teams in the league? You definitely need to consider removing counterpress when playing against good and top sides. Your defensive style is a recipe for disaster: Your team defend really deep in front of your penalty area with players getting stuck in-really risky- you might give away, penalties, dangerous freekicks, unnecessary corners, etc. Anyway, with Wolves, this system would be my counterattacking one and would look like this:

                                     AF(A)

                IF(A)                                  W(S)

                              CMS     CAR               

               WB(S)                                WB(A)

                       CD(S) BPD(D) CD(S)

CMS: hold position

Primary goalscorers: AFA, IFA

Secondary goalscorers: WS,WBA, CMS and/or CAR (with right traits)

Creators: WBS, IFA, WBA, WS, BPD

AF(A) will test the def line, IFA will help him to distract defenders with direct runs at goal, WS and WBA will orient the defence to the right to create space on the other side for IFA and AFA to attack or WBS to create with crosses from deep while CMS and CAR protect the central channel from counterattacks and recycle possession to the flanks. BPD may sometimes send ball over the top for AFA to score. 

Instructions

Balanced

More Direct Passing, Higher Tempo, Hit Early Crosses, maybe pass into space (all of these ease fast transitions to the front or to the flanks)

Regroup, Counter, Distribute to CBs( let them come to you and distribute balls to the front in a more meaningful manner)

Lower LOE, Higher/Extreme Pressing Urgency(you should watch your players acceleration, concentration, positioning and anticipation here) , Force Opp Outside, Get Stuck In( should create a proactive and compact upper low block to create space for our direct attacks aimed at AFA and IFA. If there are any other questions, feel free to ask:)

 

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, frukox said:

Mate, I love this formation. It has the potential of deadliest counterattacks while protecting halfspaces pretty well with three CBs despite lacking numbers in the middle, orienting us towards a more direct approach

This sentence nails what the problem is here. If you want to prevent this formation from playing out from the back, it is very easy for any team that has at least 2 CMs (which is all of them). If you can take away passing lanes to the CMs, there is nothing else for the CBs to do but hit the ball forward. You have aggressive wing backs who are looking to get forward rather than support play, and two midfielders who will often be outnumbered by the opposition. It is not clear to me how you want to pass from the back with such a setup.

As a general point, if you are seeing your defenders smashing the ball up field after you have told them not to, you can be sure that they are not able to do what you want them to do. There can be many reasons for it. They could be being heavily pressed by a team who is preventing short distribution. They could simply have no good passes because a team is in a medium block and all your players are marked. But this is one of the diagnostics for such a thing happening, and then you have to watch to see which one it is. 

There is also the point that 2 man midfields are not the best to encourage possession football, or playing from the back, for the reason I outlined above. And with the way your team is set up. With two attacking wide players, two CWB and a BBM, you are encouraging players to get forward. Why this formation when playing a regular 433 would pass out of defence and work the ball from the back without long balls a lot better simply because you have 3 midfielders and FBs who will be better placed to enable the attacking transition and the early phases of possession?

[frukox]

9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

This sentence nails what the problem is here. If you want to prevent this formation from playing out from the back, it is very easy for any team that has at least 2 CMs (which is all of them). If you can take away passing lanes to the CMs, there is nothing else for the CBs to do but hit the ball forward. You have aggressive wing backs who are looking to get forward rather than support play, and two midfielders who will often be outnumbered by the opposition. It is not clear to me how you want to pass from the back with such a setup.

As a general point, if you are seeing your defenders smashing the ball up field after you have told them not to, you can be sure that they are not able to do what you want them to do. There can be many reasons for it. They could be being heavily pressed by a team who is preventing short distribution. They could simply have no good passes because a team is in a medium block and all your players are marked. But this is one of the diagnostics for such a thing happening, and then you have to watch to see which one it is. 

There is also the point that 2 man midfields are not the best to encourage possession football, or playing from the back, for the reason I outlined above. And with the way your team is set up. With two attacking wide players, two CWB and a BBM, you are encouraging players to get forward. Why this formation when playing a regular 433 would pass out of defence and work the ball from the back without long balls a lot better simply because you have 3 midfielders and FBs who will be better placed to enable the attacking transition and the early phases of possession?

Or play a libero who is going to play direct passes to the flanks again:)

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, frukox said:

Or play a libero who is going to play direct passes to the flanks again:)

That would work and be wonderfully old school!

[CaptCanuck]

On 01/01/2021 at 12:19, shaunwwfc said:

Hi @CaptCanuck thanks for the response

Your thread is very interesting. I had a quick browse and only saw the screenshot from the OP. Going a back five is very interesting. I tried actually pushing up the WBs to the MR/ML strata and making them DW. Attacking wise I preferred it, but they didn't track back how I liked, sometimes not even at all. I have never experimenting placing them in a back five though so that is food for thought.

Aside from that screenshot and the other changes you have mentioned, have you diverted much from the OP? Our ideas seem very similar.

Ya the Dec 14 post screenshot is still largely where I am at tactic wise. The update did make the tactic less nice to watch, have less play through the middle, and lead to marginally worse results, with fewer goals scored.

I finished off that first season and ended up in 6th, but I definitely want to make ME-required adjustments before kicking off the next season.

I am looking at switching WB-a on the right to WB-s and select dribble less and cross from deep, to see if that mitigates the sprint to the line. And on the left I am looking at using Karbownik at WB and being right footed we'll see what that does to blocked crosses, although I have also thought of trying an IWB there too. Having the WBs on the defensive strata, they do get involved attacking wise just fine for me, especially a CWB or IWB, if you are not seeing the defensive effort you want, definitely worth a shot dropping them back, I genuinely don't think it hinders the attack, while genuinely helping the defense.

Funny frukox mentions the libero, that is something I am toying with, with Ajer in that role, but I don't have the centreback punting problem to begin with, so more just for fun.

[shaunwwfc]

I really wish I could give up and walk away as I said I would last week, but it keeps pulling me back. I desperately want to get my vision to work on this ME. But I keep coming to the same conclusion each time, things just dont look function right when it comes to the final third. 

- Why do headers never go in?

- Are strikers programmed simply not to score?

- My front three still make braindead decisions. On the one occasion just my WB just played in my Shadow Striker, decent enough angle for a shot or the DLF in a good position, he played a first time ball backwards to the CM who was on the edge of the D. I mean.. WTF!?!

- Speaking of CMs, I have Neves who as you know is stupidly good from outside the penalty area. Now I do not expect him to score from every attempt, but honestly, his attempts are embarrassing. 

- One on ones..  I just cannot fathom them. The only ones I see go in are the "dinks" over the keeper. Aside from that, it is practically a pass back to the keeper, excruciatingly wide, or they just do not shoot at all.

I am so frustrated with the ME at the moment. I am actually doing well, points wise. My football is until the final third is good. I am solid, keep clean sheets and we knock it about really bloody lovely at times, until they enter the final third. I cannot score goals and when I look like scoring, the points above all occur. The vast majority of my games are 1-0 wins. 

Attached is my system but to be honest, outside of the back three I have tinkered with everything I can think of to get things to work. Moved WBs to DWs. Moved SS to inside forwards, to PF as part of a front three. Nothing works and everything I have listed above, aswell as all the frustrations in this thread occur. I can script every game. Jimenez has 4 goals ffs. I prefer to play with a balanced mentality and tweak TIs and PIs to what I want, but I have just gone all out Attacking the last 5 games or so, still no goals and the same frustrations.

 

[Experienced Defender]

Okay, if you like to believe that the ("broken") ME is the source of your tactical issues - as opposed to your own tactical mistakes and/or tactical approach - then so be it 

Instead, I'll focus on analyzing your tactic to try and figure out its potential flaws. So here is my "diagnosis":

- insufficient (poor) defensive cover on the right flank due to a risky partnership of an attack-minded (plus roaming) wing-back (CWB) and a roaming midfield runner (BBM) 

- the above can easily affect your attacking performance as well, because tactical balance is equally important for both the attacking and defensive phases of play

- a combination of possession-friendly TIs (PoD + WBiB + shorter passing + lower tempo + hold shape + higher LOE & DL & more urgent pressing) paired with possession-unfriendly ones (extremely wide width + attacking team mentality + pass into space + regroup) - in short, an obvious tactical contradiction/inconsistency

These are the most obvious issues, which does not mean that there are not a couple of smaller and less pressing ones.

Of course, you are free to accept or ignore my observations. 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

The only thing I see from the ME that strikes me particularly as an issue at the moment is goalkeeper distribution. Which doesn't seem particularly relevant to your tactic @ op.

[shaunwwfc]

Yes, points taken @Experienced Defender but many of the obvious tactical contradiction/inconsistencies you have mentioned... I have added those to try to counter act the frankly barmy Player behaviour which I have explained. Could you address any of those points? 

[sporadicsmiles]

54 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:

Could you address any of those points? 

Wrong forum for that. If you think you have found bugs in the ME go post them with evidence on the correct bug forum. Otherwise you are just gonna get people telling you that they do not see these issues. For example I have no problems with heading and 1v1s, and my strikers score fine. So what else can people do but point out where they think the tactic is wrong. What else can we do? The most annoying thing I find in the ME is players standing still rather than chasing down clearances from attacking corners (but only sometimes) and my fullbacks being off side too much. 

So for what it is worth, here is my interpretation of what you have posted. I can see what you want to do to create goals. Draw the defence with the F9 and run in the two SS. And have wide players getting the ball and crossing too them. Possible with some expectation of through balls from midfield. Now the problem is that while this looks like a good idea, I do not understand any of how you are tried to execute this. Why attacking? As noted a combination of play out of defence, work ball into box and pass into space makes no sense to me. You want your players to pass into space, but short, and to keep possession, but look for space. And there is the hold shape for attacking transitions, so nobody will be looking to get into space. I'd just strip them all back and add the ones that are absolutely key to how you plan to play. Oh and I noticed regroup but more urgent pressing. Your defence also feels like it could get horrible exposed, and I have no idea what a BBM is supposed to be doing in such a narrow formation behind two other players who rush forward.

So following from that, I can understand why your players would make silly choices, they probably have no idea what to do. In addition to that, when you play at a high tempo with attacking football players have less time to figure out what they will do. So if they have poor decisions (and probably other things like composure) they will make poor decisions. 

The thing I would suggest is to work through the following steps.

1. What type of football do you want to play. Possession? Direct? Fluid counter attacking? Etc.

2. What formation best facilitates that style of football, and best suits the players I have. There is not really a right or wrong answer here. Some formations are better at some styles, but you can be flexible. 

3. What do I want every player to do in this formation. Who is the creator? Who is the goalscorer? Who is making space and who are they making space for? What sort of goals do you want to try to score? 

4. What roles and duties will allow those players to do what I want? To interact how I want? To score and create the chances I want? 

5. What instructions (both player and team) will help players play the way I want?

Once you know those things, you will be most of the way to having something that works. 

[KlaaZ]

2 hours ago, shaunwwfc said:

Yes, points taken @Experienced Defender but many of the obvious tactical contradiction/inconsistencies you have mentioned... I have added those to try to counter act the frankly barmy Player behaviour which I have explained. Could you address any of those points? 

Yes, but your setup has been wonky from the start as well, which has been pointed out several times now. 

I can honestly say that my defenders never punt it up the pitch for example, but that is because they have plenty of passing outlets to give the ball to when building from the back. 

[smbabur911]

On 02/01/2021 at 01:45, shaunwwfc said:

Thanks again @DeepThought for such a detailed response, it is much appreciated. 

I take your point regarding the percentage of crosses. It is more the frustration behind the lack of/blocked crosses. For example, we will have a lovely passage of play, my DLP (Neves) will release it to Marcal and he will have the perfect opportunity to whip it in with two forwards in a good position.. and almost delay it perfectly to give the FB chance to reposition. By which point the chance is gone altogether, or the cross is blocked. 

The "braindead" description.. apologies for that. I was having a moment of just getting frustrated. But with that I was referring more to the interchange between our front three. There will be an obvious pass to say Jimenez for Neto to play and he will simply misplace it or not play it at all. Dribbling seems a really strange one on FM21 too. In the likes of Neto, Traore, Podence.. we have players there who should really be making more inroads. Dont get me wrong, I am not expecting them to be machines, but they seem to get tackled at there first opportunity more often than not. I have noticed this with opposition players too, I have began studied there movement.. it would appear the AI manager has the same frustrations as me!

It is just very frustrating to watch at the moment. I want to impose my idea which is very akin that to Nuno at Wolves, but it seems very difficult to achieve. The ME doesn't seem to be much more progressive as 20, of which I found frustrating the minute I tried it, and reverted back to 19 (which was far from perfect). It seems to consist of goals from set pieces or individual efforts. Well worked goals seem difficult to come by.

Something that will interest you. Crossing is definitely an issue. Its improved from other versions but definitely some issues.

 

BLOCKED CROSSES

[Guest]

There is some great advice on here and I will add once more that the mental attributes of your team are not suited to these over-elaborate contradictory systems you are implementing. You are below average in nearly every key mental facet and yet you are trying to make your players do things they can't do rather than just implement a simple system that compliment the players you have inherited strengths.

I am guessing Jimenez is your F9 so I would ask why are you playing him there? The decision making of your attacking players is horrible because they have poor to average decision making. Neto(11) Composure(11), Silva (12), Jimenez(11), Podence(9) Composure(9), Traore(8) Composure(10), these are all instinct players that scream out for keeping it simple.

The first thing I look for in all my signings are mental attributes, give me someone who is worse in some technical areas like crossing, finishing, dribbling over someone superior in those areas but problematic mentally and I can guarantee that they will be the better player for me. If I wanted a F9 with Wolves I would be using Neves, Moutinho or I would recall Vitor Ferreira and I would be getting a good tune out of them but if I was unable to ship off Podence, Neto and Traore and bring in better attacking players to suit my system I would literally play a two man striker system that keeps it simple.

Jimenez is an all round striking threat, he has elite heading ability at 6ft 3 with high jumping, heading and bravery and all round finishing ability, if you look at his attribute analysis in no way does it scream F9 to me, Silva will become a great all round striker with some work but he can already be a good aerial threat when isolated against fullbacks.

There is also one other element that people do not take seriously enough and I believe it's not entirely realistic in how it's set in game but morale is a big game changer that can affect how the team plays. I have literally seen my team absolutely strolling it just fall apart unable to do the basics because their morale has taken a nose dive from the heady heights for innocuous reasons.

I feel for you because I have been in you position for a long time, frustrated that most of the people were getting their teams to do things I couldn't with what I thought were superior players but until you yourself accept the me isn't broken(and we have this every year on here myself being one a few years back) and you start to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the team overall and how to create a tactic around that the frustration will always be high.

 

[Obaaa]

18 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

There is some great advice on here and I will add once more that the mental attributes of your team are not suited to these over-elaborate contradictory systems you are implementing. You are below average in nearly every key mental facet and yet you are trying to make your players do things they can't do rather than just implement a simple system that compliment the players you have inherited strengths.

I am guessing Jimenez is your F9 so I would ask why are you playing him there? The decision making of your attacking players is horrible because they have poor to average decision making. Neto(11) Composure(11), Silva (12), Jimenez(11), Podence(9) Composure(9), Traore(8) Composure(10), these are all instinct players that scream out for keeping it simple.

The first thing I look for in all my signings are mental attributes, give me someone who is worse in some technical areas like crossing, finishing, dribbling over someone superior in those areas but problematic mentally and I can guarantee that they will be the better player for me. If I wanted a F9 with Wolves I would be using Neves, Moutinho or I would recall Vitor Ferreira and I would be getting a good tune out of them but if I was unable to ship off Podence, Neto and Traore and bring in better attacking players to suit my system I would literally play a two man striker system that keeps it simple.

Jimenez is an all round striking threat, he has elite heading ability at 6ft 3 with high jumping, heading and bravery and all round finishing ability, if you look at his attribute analysis in no way does it scream F9 to me, Silva will become a great all round striker with some work but he can already be a good aerial threat when isolated against fullbacks.

There is also one other element that people do not take seriously enough and I believe it's not entirely realistic in how it's set in game but morale is a big game changer that can affect how the team plays. I have literally seen my team absolutely strolling it just fall apart unable to do the basics because their morale has taken a nose dive from the heady heights for innocuous reasons.

I feel for you because I have been in you position for a long time, frustrated that most of the people were getting their teams to do things I couldn't with what I thought were superior players but until you yourself accept the me isn't broken(and we have this every year on here myself being one a few years back) and you start to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the team overall and how to create a tactic around that the frustration will always be high.

 

What type of tactics would you recommend for teams/players with lower mental attributes? 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Obaaa said:

What type of tactics would you recommend for teams/players with lower mental attributes? 

A tactic that plays to their instincts and strengths. So I  fired up a save with Wolves and hastily made a 442 tactic using preset and removing the more egregious things I didn't like and changing up some roles.

 

1st game of the season vs Villa a great 5-2 win. One of their goals was an unstoppable freekick the other and what gave them their highest XG was a tap in from a corner(I hadn't set up my defensive corner routines.)

1st thing that stuck out for me, this is great. Neto is one one one but he is too deep so I switch him to a winger on attack I want him attacking higher up the pitch.

Next highlight is this. Semedo has provided some support Adama has tucked inside near the edge of the box and Semedo puts a good cross in to the box. I like what I am seeing here in terms of numbers in the box. Perhaps the midfielder could be a bit further in the box but we certainly aren't mismatched in the box.

 

The next highlight: Great to see this, look at all that space Adama has now.

He gets the ball and doesn't turn inside but takes his(what must be a petrified full back) outside which is where the space is and exactly what I want. 

He beats his man and crosses in the box(crosses are broken right?) and Jimenez with his superior height and heading ability just puts it over. There is one element to keep any eye on, Adama is so quick players are struggling to keep up with him and provide numbers in the box which is why crossing often comes off as broken because attacking wingers end up waiting for support in the box. So maybe we need to explore putting Silva on a more attacking role but this needs to be analysed.

Our first goal was an unbelievable through ball from Silva to Adama of all people to score. I don't really want this tbh but it was quite a special ball to thread through all those defenders.

Our next good chance comes from a great overload and a great cross(Crosses are broken though right?) We have made an overload on the left, Now it might not look like they have drawn enough defenders to that overload but Villas number 4 and 6 are in no mans land picking no one up and actually drifting towards the overload.

Ait Nouri puts in a heck of a cross and you can see the benefit of the overload. Silva is one on one with his man and Adama  is inside his man and wide open.

Sure enough the ball makes it to Adama but he doesn't really have the requisite attributes to finish a volley like that. If the roles were reversed from the right wing I would bet that Neto would have punished that one.

The 3rd goal: Was an overload on the right, Semedo and Adama played off each other very nicely all match and Semedo gets the layoff from Adama and spots Adamas run inside his marker and in space and puts a lovely chipped pass in to him, you can see Jimenez, Silva and Neto lining up one on one with their markers. That i like to see.

At this point I would actually like him to put it across goal for the goal scorers to put it away but this is where decisions and other mentals can be a hinderance.

He doesn't put it across but decides to take a shot which the keeper spills to Silva who has a tap in.

 

The final highlight (There were many) We have created another overload again on the right. Neto is well positioned this time on the left and Jimenez is one on one with his man. Adama does the wise thing though. He hasn't got the ability to ping a pass wide and because he is given the role of a winger he will do what he does best and that's to use the space he has and with his superior pace and dribbling try and attack that gap.

and that's what he has done, surged through that gap, drawn three defenders and this time made the right choice by put a lovely cross in for Neto and Jimenez who has got away from his man. In this instance the ball goes to Neto who taps with the nice finish.

 

This is just basic, quickly done without thinking too much about it. I liked what I saw a lot offensively and there were things that can be improved upon too so incrementally I would change things. Defensively we were solid too, their XG was flattered by a very easy tap in from a lapse in the corner and for sure there are things that can be improved there too but it was solid enough. The main point of this is to highlight that the perception of issues with crossing and finishing is incorrect. 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Guest]

Another quick one. A preset gegenpress against same opponents with some changes and two carrileros to provide defensive help on the flanks which will be very vulnerable. Had to swap out Semedo and brought Adama of all people on for the CWB role and we got two goals from crosses and one from a through ball, you get the point about the match engine though. Might change my mind about Adama though. 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

A tactic that plays to their instincts and strengths. So I  fired up a save with Wolves and hastily made a 442 tactic using preset and removing the more egregious things I didn't like and changing up some roles.

 

1st game of the season vs Villa a great win against Villa. One of their goals was an unstoppable freekick the other and what gave them their highest XG was a tap in from a corner(I hadn't set up my defensive corner routines.)

1st thing that stuck out for me, this is great. Neto is one one one but he is too deep so I switch him to a winger on attack I want him attacking higher up the pitch.

Next highlight is this. Semedo has provided some support Adama has tucked inside near the edge of the box and Semedo puts a good cross in to the box. I like what I am seeing here in terms of numbers in the box. Perhaps the midfielder could be a bit further in the box but we certainly aren't mismatched in the box.

 

The next highlight: Great to see this, look at all that space Adama has now.

He gets the ball and doesn't turn inside but takes his(what must be a petrified full back) outside which is where the space is and exactly what I want. 

He beats his man and crosses in the box(crosses are broken right?) and Jimenez with his superior height and heading ability just puts it over. There is one element to keep any eye on, Adama is so quick players are struggling to keep up with him and provide numbers in the box which is why crossing often comes off as broken because attacking wingers end up waiting for support in the box. So maybe we need to explore putting Silva on a more attacking role but this needs to be analysed.

Our first goal was an unbelievable through ball from Silva to Adama of all people to score. I don't really want this tbh but it was quite a special ball to thread through all those defenders.

Our next good chance comes from a great overload and a great cross(Crosses are broken though right?) We have made an overload on the left, Now it might not look like they have drawn enough defenders to that overload but Villas number 4 and 6 are in no mans land picking no one up and actually drifting towards the overload.

Ait Nouri puts in a heck of a cross and you can see the benefit of the overload. Silva is one on one with his man and Adama  is inside his man and wide open.

Sure enough the ball makes it to Adama but he doesn't really have the requisite attributes to finish a volley like that. If the roles were reversed from the right wing I would bet that Neto would have punished that one.

The 3rd goal: Was an overload on the right, Semedo and Adamawho played off each other very nicely all match. Neto gets the layoff from Adama and spots Adama inside his marker and in space and puts a lovely chipped pass in to him, you can see Jimenez, Silva and Neto lining up one on one with their markers. That i like to see.

At this point I would actually like him to put it across goal for the goal scorers to put it away but this is where decisions and other mentals can be a hinderance.

He doesn't put it across but decides to take a shot which the keeper spills to Silva who has a tap in.

 

The final highlight (There were many) We have created another overload again on the right. Neto is well positioned this time on the left and Jimenez is one on one with his man. Adama does the wise thing though. He hasn't got the ability to ping a pass wide and because he is given the role of a winger he will do what he does best and that's to use the space he has and with his superior pace and dribbling try and attack that gap.

and that's what he has done, surged through that gap, drawn three defenders and this time made the right choice by put a lovely cross in for Neto and Jimenez who has got away from his man. In this instance the ball goes to Neto who taps with the nice finish.

 

This is just basic, quickly done without thinking too much about it. I liked what I saw a lot offensively and there were things that can be improved upon too so incrementally I would change things. Defensively we were solid too, their XG was flattered by a very easy tap in from a lapse in the corner and for sure there are things that can be improved there too but it was solid enough. The main point of this is to highlight that the perception of issues with crossing and finishing is incorrect. 

 

This is a wonderful post.

[Obaaa]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

This is a wonderful post.

It's a great post. But doesn't really delve into why the 442, mentality, roles and duties make it good for a team with poor mentals. Would be interested to hear the rationale behind those choices.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Obaaa said:

It's a great post. But doesn't really delve into why the 442, mentality, roles and duties make it good for a team with poor mentals. Would be interested to hear the rationale behind those choices.

 

I said this earlier in the thread. Inside forwards with those wide players with their one footedness and their mental attributes is a no no for me so I want a simple role that doesn't ask them to do complex things and that is a winger either side. It's really simple, stay wide use the space I create for you, beat your man and put a cross in the box if the chance presents. If you're not in possession or involved in the build up you need  to provide a goal scoring option or at the very least distract defenders in the box which is for the most part what they did. For me the winger role is an instinct role that doesn't require too much overthinking, it simple what they are being asked  to do and it's a role I can actually further simplify by telling them to shoot less and take less risks passing wise.

Now I need goal scoring, again I said earlier in the thread we aren't going to get too much help from those two great creative midfielders apart from in and around the edge of the box so it's two strikers for me. I don't want complex creative roles that require too much thought. I want them to use pure instincts to get goal side of their marker and score, that's their priority in the system. The FBs are a basic support role to keep defensive solidity and together with wingers and CM's help create our overloads. You can see it here, winger, striker, FB  and CM essentially drawing 5 defenders away in a overload from the three waiting attackers.

   

As far as the rest is concerned I haven't thought too much about it, the central midfielders are brilliant players that would require some thinking about their roles and even the strikers too I could try different things to get an optimal setup but as a starting point and from what I saw in the matches played this was a good start to build on and it was literally something I did quickly.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Chris2509]

Great post, @Crazy_Ivan! Enjoyed reading it. Could you elaborate on why you chose to add "fairly narrow" and "focus play down the flanks"?

Edited January 8, 2021 by Chris2509

[Garrlor]

Just to add to @Crazy_Ivan's excellent work in the above posts, even at the top level decision making is key. Manchester United in game possess a good squad but one who lack good decision makers across the team, which means that were I playing them in FM21 I wouldn't want to overcomplicate my tactics or instructions. If you were to take individual players, both Fernandes and Pogba have the same decision making ability of 12, but Fernandes makes up for it with far greater work rate, composure, bravery and most importantly determination. That means I would rely on Fernandes to be my creative hub rather than Pogba but I would still keep his role fairly simple like an AM(Su) but I know I would want to have a more structured type of team shape and style of playing to compensate for the mental ability of the team as a whole.

@Chris2509 I would guess that it is because all of his strength is through the middle of the park so he wants to keep it compact through there, while adding focus play down the flanks will boost the mentality of the wingbacks further, meaning they get further forward and therefore engage higher up the pitch (probably around where both CAR are patrolling) which would mean that they would get an overload on the press in these areas.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Focus play doesn't change players' mentalities anymore. Not sure how much effect it would have with only the wing backs offering actual width but the role choices could work with it in theory.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Chris2509 said:

Great post, @Crazy_Ivan! Enjoyed reading it. Could you elaborate on why you chose to add "fairly narrow" and "focus play down the flanks"?

The narrower element was a preset which I left, it's the kind of instruction I would monitor and change if necessary. The focus instruction  will still create overloads even for a very centrally focused tactic. which are very  useful for freeing the CWB's in to acres of space . I had to play the game again vs Villa with the 41212 narrow formation. We won 2-0 this time but still very one sided. So in this formation the FB's will be key both shuttling defensively and attacking but are very much prime creators for me in that system so I want space for them to operate in. 

So overloads like this

Create Space like this. The black dot in that second pic is the shadow of the ball being pinged over from the quarterback DLP Neves to Semedo. Now Semedo has a ton of space to operate in and he he is not being pressurised by one or two defenders which with his very meh decisions and composure means he isn't being forced in to a silly turnover and he has plenty of time to get a cross in to the box.

The first goal we scored is  classic example of how focusing down the flanks helps because it has drawn nearly everyone to our left of the field. I actually love the look of this because we have manoeuvred things in such a way that we literally have 5 Villa players offering nothing defensively.  Numbers 15, 20, 10, 7and 11(out of pic up with our defenders) are all in no mans land defensively. Their number 2 is also offering nothing imo because he looks like he is in two minds about whether he should worry about our number 3 or maintain his position. 

There are three other key things I really like here, 

1. Both my CWBs are in acres of space as is my Quarterback Neves with the lovely range of passing so if the ball goes back to him he can pick out either wide player.

2. Moutinho, Neves and Silva my primary scorers in this formation are in a three on two literally coiled ready to pounce.

3.Because we have shifted their defensive focus to our left and their fullback(18) has decided he needs to be closer to my fullback(2)  that has opened up a vast channel for the one guy who isn't being picked up which is Moutinho to drive in to.

Saiss spots Moutinho with that space and dinks the ball in for him to score.

The second goal started from a kick off from a Villa kick off but illustrates how key the CWB is in this formation. When Neves starts passing to Dendoncker Ait Nouri is already gunning it up the flanks and because of the tempo set Dendoncker who is well positioned doesn't even take a touch he literally hits the pass out wide for Ait Nouri in to space straight away. 

Ait  Nouri now has drawn their number 2 towards him but it's too late their number 2 is in no mans land when Ait Nouri launches the angled through ball towards Jimenez Moutinho and Silva who have all got goal side of their markers and Jimenez slots it home.

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan