AI managers are too weak ?

[Naor5563]

Hello,

Manager after manager I can't stop thinking that the AI managers are just too weak compare to human manager.

I don't only speaking about match handling ( tactics which are probably the same , no creativities and 'surprises' ) , also about taking care of good rotation ( usually playing with their best players only and their condition is low most of the time ) , transfer policies ( can't do good transfers like human does ... ) and also can't play with players in their absolutly best role ( player who has to be striker if judging his attributes will play as a mc just because he can. And when ill bring him and let him play as a striker he will score 40 goals a season ) .

 

I know the AI can't be with human intelligence, but I think the developers can make them more than it's now and raise our challenge ...

 

[ViG1980]

Yep. Super weak. 5 seasons into career mode and you can take over the world. 

[mrbrownsays]

Yes this has been an issue for fm since forever. This is why we create self imposed challenges and things to make it harder.

Part of the problem is if the AI was made significantly harder then it would be really difficult to get into the game afresh. Think how hard you found your first ever fm game (most people find it confusing as hell) combine that with a few losses early on and perhaps the casual gamer wouldn't pursue the game.

[Miravlix]

It's not uncommon to have difficulty levels in game and it would really help here.

 

2nd place (one result from winning) Prem league with Everton in the first season.

 

Won everything second season, every cup and league.

 

3rd season my youngsters got some tough cup games and failed to win the national ones, but we won 31 league games and drew 7, so unbeaten and won league with 100 points and champions cup.

 

When I loaded up the game and picked everton, I expected to have trouble getting to 10th place, so this 2nd place was a major disappointment because I was utterly unchallenged by big clubs and after that it was downhill as I bought players and trained up wonderkids.

 

My expectation picking Everton was a hard season where I got a little past the expectation of 10th place in 1st season, then slowly over the next few seasons heading towards Euro/Champions Cup qualification and then as my wonderkids developed, I would finally be in for challenging for Champions Cup/League Champions.

 

But no Evertons starting players can win the darn league in first season with very little luck needed.

[majesticeternity]

Take a look at this Smarter AI Managers mod

I made the above in an effort to reduce the issues you mentioned, a bit. 

Any feedback or ideas to improve them more is welcome. 

[Naor5563]

4 hours ago, majesticeternity said:

Take a look at this Smarter AI Managers mod

I made the above in an effort to reduce the issues you mentioned, a bit. 

Any feedback or ideas to improve them more is welcome. 

I'll try it in my next save. Thanks!

[Naor5563]

So how can we make it harder and raise our challenge? 

It seems like it's so easy to get a high success without doing a lot. Feeling like being overachievers is the default.

 

Anything SI can do to make it more challenging?

[dewhirst]

I think the people who find it easy have to be honest with themselves in that they usually get a great tactic online.

[Naor5563]

15 minutes ago, dewhirst said:

I think the people who find it easy have to be honest with themselves in that they usually get a great tactic online.

Never, did not even thought about it.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dewhirst said:

I think the people who find it easy have to be honest with themselves in that they usually get a great tactic online.

I have never used a dowloaded tactic or copied the work of others & other than FM08 I have never found FM to been difficult with dominance the regular outcome even with me playing to a strict LLM style.

[mrbrownsays]

2 hours ago, dewhirst said:

I think the people who find it easy have to be honest with themselves in that they usually get a great tactic online.

I don't think they do (I only start downloading and using editors and stuff once I have solved the game in a save or two). But I do think we exploit our knowledge of fm to win rather than just treating it as real football. I think we use tactics we know will work on fm rather than those we think are best irl etc.

 

That said I've not played an fm in years just downloaded this one in the last few days, maybe I'm speaking too soon.

[majesticeternity]

6 hours ago, Naor5563 said:

So how can we make it harder and raise our challenge? 

It seems like it's so easy to get a high success without doing a lot. Feeling like being overachievers is the default.

 

Anything SI can do to make it more challenging?

I've found raising the morale to 20 for opposing teams, in FMRTE, gives a great challenge.  

[Naor5563]

Just now, majesticeternity said:

I've found raising the morale to 20 for opposing teams, in FMRTE, gives a great challenge.  

Haha, I do want SI to make it difficult for us, not us making it difficult for us. I want thinking managers like in real life. 

[zigaliro]

Damn, I see everyone is saying it`s too easy. Am I the only one that is struggling ALOT? I already tried couple of saves with Barcelona, Sevilla and Milan and trying to create decent tactics but still no success after tons of tries in 60 hours of gametime.

[Marinho]

I noticed the extreme exhaustion of oposing teams and it is pretty much a game-breaker as far as i am concerned. Add to that the inability to develop young talent or play the better fitting player (for the tactical role) than the "better on paper" player in terms of CA and i think this needs serious work. 

 

As it is i feel the need to essentially give the AI a boost via the in-game editor by pushing their condition (remove all injuries, don't think one goes without the other) every 2 months or so.

[Marinho]

Also, is there really no stat/setting along the lines of "prefers young players/veterans" ?

[Showerman]

what playing experience do you guys select ?

 

[Marinho]

1 minute ago, Showerman said:

what playing experience do you guys select ?

 

That literally has no influence on the things noted in the OP/the issues with the AI.

[Triffid]

It's a game. The fact is that people will enjoy the game more if they are winning matches.

If they are losing matches every week then most people will put the game down, get bored and do something else.

If people are winning matches they will get hooked and buy next years release. It really is that simple and explains why every man and his dog can take a team from National League to Champions League in no time.

Personally I think that's great. Usually by the time I get to Champions League its time for a new FM and start again

[Showerman]

3 minutes ago, Marinho said:

That literally has no influence on the things noted in the OP/the issues with the AI.

you're right but it does slow down the process to the top

with condition/orange inj players i just copy AI now and play them, physio usually tells me how capable they are if its 60mins or whatever

[RBKalle]

11 minuti fa, Triffid ha scritto:

It's a game. The fact is that people will enjoy the game more if they are winning matches.

If they are losing matches every week then most people will put the game down, get bored and do something else.

If people are winning matches they will get hooked and buy next years release. It really is that simple and explains why every man and his dog can take a team from National League to Champions League in no time.

Personally I think that's great. Usually by the time I get to Champions League its time for a new FM and start again

 

That's part of the appeal, but the bulk of the players will likely pick Barça, Real, City or their favourite Top Tier side for a short and sweet winning spree. And let's not forget those who'll add 10 billions to their local side bank account, raise the reputation and go on to breeze through the divisions on the way to the top.

Our complaints about overachieving are indeed the nit-picking of a selected minority, and a pretty divided one to tell the truth. So what we're hoping to see in a not so distant future is something that the average/casual FM'er would barely notice...
After all, if you're managing PSG or the editor-enhanced Altrincham, it barely matters if AI Guardiola or AI Zidane are mismanaging their squad or are playing a relatively realistic version of their football. Your side will have enough talent and money to easily bypass that.

But if you're after an actual challenge, it'll be much more difficult. Not much in the road to Premier League, which could still be feasible rather quickly, as AI managers and players down the pyramid are less impressive anyway, but surely your newly promoted side won't sit comfortably in an Europa League spot at this time of the year in the first season.

Human manager reputation/points were supposed to limit our ability to become Mourinho-like dressingroom leaders within six months, but it's yet another artificial obstacle to mask the fact AI's Top Managers are morons.

[warlock]

So here's a thing. Managing second place Man Utd I had an away game at mid-table Leicester (around January 2019), who were managed by Roberto de Matteo. They took an early lead, and I had to work hard for an equaliser, and then work even harder to take the lead. They didn't do anything as obvious as going attacking or overload, but somehow managed to create an equaliser midway through the second half. I expected them to shut up shop and play for the draw. To my surprise, de Matteo brought on a third striker and went for the winner, which they duly scored about 10 minutes from time. Then they parked the bus and nothing we could do got us back on parity. They ran out 3-2 winners.

I don't think I'll ever forget that moment when I realised what de Matteo had done. And while I generally agree that the AI managers could be a bit tougher, FM still has the capacity to surprise.

Merry Christmas!

[lomekian]

Now I know being an Arsenal fan I have a fairly easy ride, in terms of starting talent and players to attract, but I think the biggest issue in terms of challenge is that its very hard for the ai to simulate the inexplicable. When your team has an injury crisis or as I've experienced down the leagues with barnet, a confidence crisis, momentum is reasonable well simulated, and likewise when your team is firing on all cylinders. What is very difficult to sim, is something all Arsenal fans are familiar with, that being random collapses in confidence during games, massive brain farts and 30 minute periods where otherwise great players can barely pass a ball five yards.

That said, i've seen quite enough you-tube 'lets play' videos to see that plenty of human managers can't get any consistent performance out of a team as well resourced as Arsenal.

Me? Pretty easy, but in part because I've used minor variations on the same unique tactic I developed around their squad a few iterations ago, which given Wenger's reluctance for massive overhauls in real life does give me an advantage...and crucially unlike Wenger I then DO spend on boosting the squad enough to rotate so the team isn't riddled with injuries by the new year, and I'm more willing to compromise principles to get results. Also, I've played this game since the 1992 release with fake players and barely any complexity, so have probably spent more time managing than a decent % of top flight real life managers!!

On FM, you can manage just by trying to beat the game, but its also well programmed enough that you can just apply sound real life principles and garner a certain degree of success. I certainly found the game became more interesting and in many ways easier after I started writing weekly football columns and hosting a football podcast, because it made my own ideas more analytical and clearer.

But of course FM can never be a real challenge...because it simply can't simulate the entire complexity of human behaviour for hundreds of thousands of AI beings. In real life a players form may suffer because he has had an bust up with a team-mate, or his marriage is going through a rough patch, or his new baby is affecting his sleep, or he's prone to depression, or he's got a genetic pre-disposition to putting on weight (or losing it), etc etc....and of course, because people are complicated, the same struggles that may throw one player off his game, may draw extra focus from another, or alter at different times of life.

The you have to do the same for all managers, who lets face it, invariably makes decisions for reasons other than rationality.

In the same way that its almost impossible to simulate Theo Walcott  finishing one chance like Ian Wright and the next like Glenn Helder, its pretty hard to simulate Mourinho wanting nothing to do with Kevin De Bryune, Mo Salah or Lukaku (first time) and dissing Arjen Robben, Leo Bonucci, due to preferences for £27 Wright Phillips or Del Horno. Equally its hard to simulate the career path of Jamie Vardy or the amazing rise and fall of Michu.

Football is about people, and they are difficult to simulate.

That said, Pep always massively underachieves at City - last year as well....despite pretty amazing attributes

[edk77]

Top managers at most top clubs like Barca, City, PSG, Bayern  and etc are all consistently underachieved while mediocre managers at mediocre clubs consistently overachieved. This is like a game where the final boss are much weaker than the smaller boss so it feels very underwhelming when we won the league without any challenge from these top managers.

From my observation so far,  these top top managers are not doing well in FM18 because they stick to their predefined football philosophy which is to play possession football and the use of real world wingers formations like 4231 Wide and 433 DM Wide.  While the ME doesn't favor these real world tactics, it favors unrealistic tactics like 3 strikers, 4231 with DM Volante, any 3 at the back formations which none of the AI top managers will use except Conte.

So the solution is either make these top managers smart enough to aware of what kind of formations are favour by the ME (by playing first team against the reserve team over and over again to choose a good formation/tactic, something like google's alphago) or they will learn from the players by copying the player's formation and even improve it. And I believe this is actually how the real world managers will do.

The other solution is to buff these real world wingers formations like 4231 Wide and 433 DM Wide that used by top managers to a reasonable level.

 

[SMV90]

10 hours ago, zigaliro said:

Damn, I see everyone is saying it`s too easy. Am I the only one that is struggling ALOT? I already tried couple of saves with Barcelona, Sevilla and Milan and trying to create decent tactics but still no success after tons of tries in 60 hours of gametime.

Not just you, mate. I’ve been stuck in the Championship with Shrewsbury for around 8 seasons now. I’m not bad enough to go down, but not good enough to push for a play-off or promotion place. I’m the Stoke City of this division.

[phnompenhandy]

I've just got promoted to the Vanarama National and it appears to be a step too high. Not only are the oppo players of a higher standard, but the managers appear to be able to organise their defences more intelligently.

[phnompenhandy]

On 24/12/2017 at 08:27, Miravlix said:

It's not uncommon to have difficulty levels in game and it would really help here.

Actually, that's what I've done. I'm following a Youth Intake challenge. I can't buy or bring in any players, even on loan. I have to go with what I've got and nurture my academy players. What's happened is as I won promotion, my chairman sold my best 2 players even though I can't spend the transfer cash (it's invested in improving facilities instead).

 

In other words, just make your own difficulty level/challenge if the game doesn't supply it.

[Naor5563]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Actually, that's what I've done. I'm following a Youth Intake challenge. I can't buy or bring in any players, even on loan. I have to go with what I've got and nurture my academy players. What's happened is as I won promotion, my chairman sold my best 2 players even though I can't spend the transfer cash (it's invested in improving facilities instead).

 

In other words, just make your own difficulty level/challenge if the game doesn't supply it.

I don't think it should be that way. But that's not what I meant when opened this thread. I want the other AI managers to be more involved, more creative and 'open minded'. I want them to use more tactics [ instead of the regular 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 ... ] , to know how to do good rotation or develop a good talent from their youth ranks. The top managers are just acting like 'normal' managers, doing the same things and that's make it easy to the veteran FM client. 

 

[Naor5563]

Since it's not just me as I thought , I would like to hear about improvements to this area of the game [ or even a comment from SI to hear if it's a known issue or if they intend to look into this issue] . In order to keep this game 'alive', we have to get more challenging game. 

[Swindon69]

1 hour ago, Naor5563 said:

Since it's not just me as I thought , I would like to hear about improvements to this area of the game [ or even a comment from SI to hear if it's a known issue or if they intend to look into this issue] . In order to keep this game 'alive', we have to get more challenging game. 

They have to find a balance as I'm sure there are lots of people, including me who don't find it too easy.

[edk77]

2 hours ago, Swindon69 said:

They have to find a balance as I'm sure there are lots of people, including me who don't find it too easy.

Agreed and right now the best managers/clubs in the game are seriously underperform that's not balance and it's unrealistic.

[shirajzl]

On 12/24/2017 at 23:19, RBKalle said:

 

That's part of the appeal, but the bulk of the players will likely pick Barça, Real, City or their favourite Top Tier side for a short and sweet winning spree. And let's not forget those who'll add 10 billions to their local side bank account, raise the reputation and go on to breeze through the divisions on the way to the top.

Our complaints about overachieving are indeed the nit-picking of a selected minority, and a pretty divided one to tell the truth. So what we're hoping to see in a not so distant future is something that the average/casual FM'er would barely notice...
After all, if you're managing PSG or the editor-enhanced Altrincham, it barely matters if AI Guardiola or AI Zidane are mismanaging their squad or are playing a relatively realistic version of their football. Your side will have enough talent and money to easily bypass that.

But if you're after an actual challenge, it'll be much more difficult. Not much in the road to Premier League, which could still be feasible rather quickly, as AI managers and players down the pyramid are less impressive anyway, but surely your newly promoted side won't sit comfortably in an Europa League spot at this time of the year in the first season.

Human manager reputation/points were supposed to limit our ability to become Mourinho-like dressingroom leaders within six months, but it's yet another artificial obstacle to mask the fact AI's Top Managers are morons.

That's a fallacy. Not all people who want to dominate the game likely use editor and similar means to ease the rate of their progress. I'd say it's the other way around. People want a certain, high level of immersion which strictly forbids any kind of editor work while climbing up the leagues with unrealistic pace. It's a contradiction, yes, but I've seen it and heard it so many times over the 20 odd years I've been playing this game.

I'd argue that one of the best FM qualities is that it gives a highly realistic framework and surroundings and then it allows you to go all-in in unrealistic self-indulging while keeping the realistic frame intact. 

[RBKalle]

1 ora fa, shirajzl ha scritto:

That's a fallacy. Not all people who want to dominate the game likely use editor and similar means to ease the rate of their progress. I'd say it's the other way around. People want a certain, high level of immersion which strictly forbids any kind of editor work while climbing up the leagues with unrealistic pace. It's a contradiction, yes, but I've seen it and heard it so many times over the 20 odd years I've been playing this game.

I'll have to disagree on the fallacy...

We, as forum members, have a pretty "distorted" view of the game and of its fanbase. In here we debate stuff that goes over the head of the average FM'er who wants to bring AC Milan or Liverpool back to their winning days.
The (few) people I know in real life who play FM, do so in the two ways I've explained: either short saves to hoard silverware or, often, cheat-tastic rags to riches careers. Most saves don't reach the 7-years mark. And those are the ones who actually "stick around" instead of getting overwhelmed/frustrated even before managing to play long enough to call it a savegame.

You can get a glimpse of that by reading some of the rants that pop up in GD around launch time and shortly after a patch or a sale... Relative newbies who come in to complain about scripted games, cheating AI and them not being able to win a thing with Moneybags FC despite having forked out 300M on the market for 3 hot talents.
And on other discussion boards it's even worse...

If there's a fallacy here, it's that most FM'ers know what they are doing At times, ourselves included...

[Miravlix]

On 12/24/2017 at 20:23, zigaliro said:

Damn, I see everyone is saying it`s too easy. Am I the only one that is struggling ALOT? I already tried couple of saves with Barcelona, Sevilla and Milan and trying to create decent tactics but still no success after tons of tries in 60 hours of gametime.

Managing a team like Barca is not about tactics, it's about motivating the team to play well, avoiding making them desperate to win or not putting in enough effort.

 

I don't know how motivation is coded in the game, but it seems to me with years of experience with the system that  an analog would be 1-20 where good motivation is 10, the higher above 10 and the player try to hard and miss easy goals and two feet tackle (resulting in red cards) and below 10 they just don't put in effort.

[shirajzl]

31 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I'll have to disagree on the fallacy...

We, as forum members, have a pretty "distorted" view of the game and of its fanbase. In here we debate stuff that goes over the head of the average FM'er who wants to bring AC Milan or Liverpool back to their winning days.
The (few) people I know in real life who play FM, do so in the two ways I've explained: either short saves to hoard silverware or, often, cheat-tastic rags to riches careers. Most saves don't reach the 7-years mark. And those are the ones who actually "stick around" instead of getting overwhelmed/frustrated even before managing to play long enough to call it a savegame.

You can get a glimpse of that by reading some of the rants that pop up in GD around launch time and shortly after a patch or a sale... Relative newbies who come in to complain about scripted games, cheating AI and them not being able to win a thing with Moneybags FC despite having forked out 300M on the market for 3 hot talents.
And on other discussion boards it's even worse...

If there's a fallacy here, it's that most FM'ers know what they are doing At times, ourselves included...

You're actually right. Whom I described in my post are people "in the middle", sandwiched between those whom you described and those who are annoyed that Barcelona and Real don't dominate their relegation battlers.