Job Market Completely Broken

[kris0710]

Just looking at the Reputation of the two countries tells the OP why he isn't getting offers elsewhere.

The Premier League is 4.5 stars.

The Liga Zon SAGRES is 3.5 stars.

The Championship is 3 stars

League One 2.5 stars

League Two and Liga2 Cabovisao are both 2 stars.

Skrill Premier is 1.5 stars

Portuguese National leagues and Skrill North/South are 1 star.

At best the OP has managed to win a 1 star and a 2 star league. There is no mention of winning anything in the Portuguese top league, which is ranked higher than the Championship. He claims to be 'competing with Benfica, Sporting and Porto' despite being 'nicely in mid table'.

So from that he is a the manager of a mid table club with success the same as winning the Skrill N/S and League Two. Given that most countries don't have a league system as big as England in FM then it stands to reason that you won't be getting too many approaches depending on what leagues you have running.

The last success came in the 62nd best league. Yet the OP wants jobs at the 2nd best league, 4th best league, 8th best league and 5th best league. He then lowers his sights to the 3* rated Belgian Pro League, ranked the same as the Championship. Finally he is rejected from League Two Bury, the same League Two that is ranked the same as the Portuguese 2nd Division.

That one is the only job he could/should have got but are there other reasons. I asked earlier about the OP contract only to get a smart reply back, ignoring what i asked. His contract is £450pw and if it has just a year to run that is still £23k in compensation that a League Two side have to cough up for an Englishman with no background in English football. I am only assuming but i expect the OP to have 2 or maybe 3 years on a contract so that is then £46k to £69k for Bury to pay out. This is double or treble what Bury entire wage budget is when the game starts so it is unlikely they would pay that kind of money for a new manager.

[Jimbokav1971]

And establishing the club in a top league with clubs like Sporting, Benfica and Porto? That's just as significant as getting there in the first place, especially with a small club.

I should also add that I'm not arguing why it is how it is in the game or that it's a bug, I'm saying it's not realistic (IMO).

Well the impression I got from the OP was that this was his 1st season in the top Division against these teams. Established? No, not really. If I am correct, he hasn't even avoided relegation yet. Do you see what I mean?

As for it not being realistic, I really think it is. He seems to want clubs from other Nations to come in for him before he has completed his 1st season in the top Division. His wording of his post suggests that he has gained promotion in ways other than as Champions, and we have already clarified that the reputations of the competitions of the leagues he has been managing in are REALLY low.

You want realism. Do you think it is realistic for a Portugese Manager who's team won promotion from the Evo Stick Northern Premier and then from Conference South, to attract the attention of teams in other Countries?

To my mind he would be attracting the attention of teams of a similar level in his own Country, (and he has in Alfreton Town). The problem is that the level he has been managing at is so low reputation wise, that he's not worthy of a Conference National job. The other structures in Europe might not go down this far unless he has loads of leagues running, so when he says that he thinks he should be offered a job at the likes of Standard, Fiorentina, Bordeaux etc etc, he is properly having a laugh.

Would you expect to go from Alfreton to Standard? That is what he is effectively saying. I'm not saying that being offered jobs is correct in the game, but in this case it is absolutely bang on.

[CityAndColour]

I wouldn't compare Alfreton to a side sitting mid-table in the Portuguese top flight.

And your reverse analogy really doesn't work for me, because you don't start playing teams like Porto, Benfica and Sporting Lisbon after being promoted from the Conference South.

But it's irrelevant anyway, because I'm not arguing why it is how it is, with league reputations etc. I am just saying that the way reputation is set up, it doesn't really allow for a fairy tale story or a club seeing something in a young manager. And it probably never will be able to be that dynamic.

I guess I would just like clubs to take a chance on managers who have a history of winning, even if it is initially at lower levels. I would have no problem with it if he was a Portuguese national, but the fact that he is English in the game to me should be piquing the interest of English clubs, particularly in the third and fourth tiers where it is often just the same managers being rotated between clubs. Why can't one of them decide to take a chance on this young English guy who clearly has a bit of a magic touch?

[Dagenham_Dave]

I think English clubs would take notice of a British manager doing excellent things abroad..

Perhaps any time there's been a vacancy, there's been better candidates. Perhaps in his game, there are a lot of out of work managers with better experience. There can be a number of things to consider before coming to the conclusion that the game is flawed.

There's a coach in real life that mirrors this situation a bit as it happens. English born Scottish coach Stuart Baxter has an impressive CV at many different foreign clubs over the years, including winning the Swedish league title with AIK, and getting past the group stages in the UEFA Cup with Helsingborgs, both better achievements than what the OP has managed so far. Despite (comically for a while up here) being linked in the media with just about every job that comes up, he very rarely, if ever, even gets interviewed for a position. In fact, the closest he got was when he almost got a Director of Football role at Celtic, but the Glasgow side pulled out as they didn't want to pay compensation to the Finnish FA as he was their national team manager at the time.

He now manages the Kaizer Chiefs in South Africa I think, where's he's also won silverware.

[Jimbokav1971]

I wouldn't compare Alfreton to a side sitting mid-table in the Portuguese top flight.

And your reverse analogy really doesn't work for me, because you don't start playing teams like Porto, Benfica and Sporting Lisbon after being promoted from the Conference South.

I completely agree with you here.

The problem is that he hasn't even finished his 1st season in this league. Any reputation rise of kudos or experience or whatever you want to call it, won't really kick in until he has done a season at the very least. Although he is there now, he is still effectively trading on a reputation built in the leagues below. Do you see what I mean?

He says he's "established" but actually he hasn't even avoided relegation for the 1st time yet. If we moved on 12 months then I think he might be in a very different position after the relative success of this season is taken into account. At the moment, it isn't, (and rightly so).

[CityAndColour]

There's a coach in real life that mirrors this situation a bit as it happens. English born Scottish coach Stuart Baxter has an impressive CV at many different foreign clubs over the years, including winning the Swedish league title with AIK, and getting past the group stages in the UEFA Cup with Helsingborgs, both better achievements than what the OP has managed so far. Despite (comically for a while up here) being linked in the media with just about every job that comes up, he very rarely, if ever, even gets interviewed for a position. In fact, the closest he got was when he almost got a Director of Football role at Celtic, but the Glasgow side pulled out as they didn't want to pay compensation to the Finnish FA as he was their national team manager at the time.

He now manages the Kaizer Chiefs in South Africa I think, where's he's also won silverware.

I like this example, it's a good discussion. Looks like he's landed a few higher profile gigs even if it's not club sides - England u19s and both the Finland and South African national teams. I'd love to know if he ever applied for any roles in the British league system or if it was just the media linking him, especially as he's done well in Europe as you pointed out with both Helsingborgs and AIK.

[CityAndColour]

I completely agree with you here.

The problem is that he hasn't even finished his 1st season in this league. Any reputation rise of kudos or experience or whatever you want to call it, won't really kick in until he has done a season at the very least. Although he is there now, he is still effectively trading on a reputation built in the leagues below. Do you see what I mean?

He says he's "established" but actually he hasn't even avoided relegation for the 1st time yet. If we moved on 12 months then I think he might be in a very different position after the relative success of this season is taken into account. At the moment, it isn't, (and rightly so).

There's nothing in the OP to suggest it's his first season in the top flight. In fact claiming "six years of almost continued success" would suggest to me he's been in the top flight for several seasons, although would need the OP to clarify this.

Agree that it would make a difference if it is indeed his first season at this level though.

[kris0710]

I like this example, it's a good discussion. Looks like he's landed a few higher profile gigs even if it's not club sides - England u19s and both the Finland and South African national teams. I'd love to know if he ever applied for any roles in the British league system or if it was just the media linking him, especially as he's done well in Europe as you pointed out with both Helsingborgs and AIK.

Makes good reading on his Wikipedia page.

Success in Japan in 1994, with AIK in 1998/99, Helsingborgs in 2006 and most recently won Premier Soccer League and Nedbank Cup with Kaiser Chiefs.

I would imagine there are many people in England who have never heard of this guy, they would have heard of the clubs he has managed.

[kris0710]

There's nothing in the OP to suggest it's his first season in the top flight. In fact claiming "six years of almost continued success" would suggest to me he's been in the top flight for several seasons, although would need the OP to clarify this.

Agree that it would make a difference if it is indeed his first season at this level though.

This is a problem. Questions asked at him don't get answered. I think the length of his contract is important but i get a silly reply. Asked when he last went for a job in Portugal and again he fails to answer.

[Jimbokav1971]

I've heard of Baxter, (I think from the Champions League with AIK). Haven't heard of him since though. I wonder why he moves around so much. I'm sure it's interesting though.

[Jimbokav1971]

There's nothing in the OP to suggest it's his first season in the top flight. In fact claiming "six years of almost continued success" would suggest to me he's been in the top flight for several seasons, although would need the OP to clarify this.

Agree that it would make a difference if it is indeed his first season at this level though.

You are correct. I don't "know" and am deffo reading between the lines.

The reason that I came to that conclusion was that he never commented on "staying up" or "avoiding relegation" or "mid-table finish" in the Portugese top Division. It leads me to believe that it hasn't happened yet, (although of course might be wrong).

Had he stayed up in the Portugese premier Div, (or whatever it is called), I would expect him to be earning slightly more than £450 pw. The fact that he isn't suggests that his contract and reputation is still based on lower league performances.

[Trepanated]

I do not think there is anything to back that up, Steven McLaren won the Eredivisie with a unfancied side yet he was(is) still considered to be a figure of fun in England & his only job prospects when he was looking to make a return were at troubled Championship sides. A manager with no previous record in England would likely have an even tougher time finding work at a professional club.

I think there are at least 2 problems with looking to real life for evidence about how the reputations of rapid-risers should be treated. One is that a decent to good FM player can achieve a lot more with smaller clubs than what you see in real life. There aren't many real life stories of Skrill level clubs going to the Premiership in the space of, say, 7 seasons, but it does happen in the game. The other is that real life managers have ways of building reputation that aren't available to FM players, namely taking positions as other than the head coach. Someone mentioned Brendan Rodgers earlier starting out coaching reserves and youth sides; surely this helped him build his network in the "biz" but it's not possible to do inside FM. On that basis I think it's reasonable to provide a bit of reputation assistance to Sunday Leaguers compared to their real life counterparts, because in real life there are options for breaking into coaching other than jumping straight to the Head Coach position at a 7th tier club in West Bumwangistan.

[Trepanated]

The assistance is provided by the past experience option, if someone opts to start with the lowest available reputation then there does need to be an acceptance that progress will be slow.

Yes, that's true, but the choice of reputation has confounding variables in that it also affects how difficult a time you will have at your first club. Reputation starting point is not the same as reputation growth, and I think the issue here is that the OP (and certainly many other players) prefer to start low while simultaneously having a path to grow. But to my eyes you appear to be doing an excellent job in this thread of investigation and I commend you for it.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask another question about the reputation of managers abroad. Does their reputation growth in their home country (based on exploits abroad) work the same for every country, or is it also a function of other things? I ask because as an American I can tell you that any head coaching hire of an American anywhere in Europe would be big news in the soccer [sic] community here. People who follow the sport avidly, and certainly those on the management side, will know what Bob Bradley is up to and will have followed what was happening with Gregg Berhalter. Had Berhalter gotten Hammarby promoted, for example, it surely would have given him a solid bump in reputation here in the USA. Likewise any American who took a Portuguese 3rd division side to the top level would have a lot of buzz here. But I can equally understand that in bigger footballing countries it's much more commonplace to have a coach hired abroad, and perhaps accomplishments such as those would barely register.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Good timing for this thread. Playing through my Hibs save, and in the last week have been offered the Blackpool job, and more interestingly, this one...

But it's broken though.

[Jimbokav1971]

I don't think the OP proves that it's broken Dave, but my own personal opinion is that it's not quite right. I haven't got anything to back that up and I have been offered LOADS of jobs now, but I know in the early stages that I was thinking... "why is nobody poaching me? I'm brill!" or something like that anyway.

[BiggusD]

I think that the reputation lag when you take a mini club to the top league in consecutive seasons has been in the game for as long as I can remember.

It does cause some trouble in the game that the club and its starlet manager is not taken very seriously if they don't take major trophies. If Elderberries Town FC rocketed through the leagues by coming second, and then stabilized as a 15th place Premier Leauge club winning no cups, how many seasons would they require to be seen as a real Premier Leauge club? 4? 40? 400? More importantly, how many victories would they get from being underestimated by other relegation candidates, and from their opponents banging their heads into the parked bus (when based on player quality they could have been on the offensive)?

Why not dividing the Reputation stat into Short-term reputation (buzz) and Long-term reputation (heritage?)

This way, the OP would be in the news in the UK as the unlikely story of the totally unknown coach that became local hero in Portugal, and he would have caught the attention of football nerds worldwide as the David vs Goliat story. This could generate a name that could be attractive for a certain kind of chairman, while getting long-term reputation would be necessary to impress the traditional big clubs.

I still want the option to bypass the "new manager" motivational penalty when choosing footballing background (since I am a club manager and don't care about career building), by adding another layer of reputation "below" National; Club/Local reputation!... and thus being able to choose Club Icon/Legend instead of the four existing reputational levels. As we all know, when we set ourselves as International Player the motivational penalty is minimized, but on the flip side we become attractive for big-name players from our nation that we wouldn't otherwise be.

TL/DR: There are many things SI can do with the Reputation system to improve it. The OP's complaints aren't entirely ungrounded.

[forameuss]

I don't think the OP proves that it's broken Dave, but my own personal opinion is that it's not quite right. I haven't got anything to back that up and I have been offered LOADS of jobs now, but I know in the early stages that I was thinking... "why is nobody poaching me? I'm brill!" or something like that anyway.

While I agree it's not quite right - my opinion would fall somewhere between yours and Dave's - I think the main problem is that we've been spoiled by previous versions. It's changed, and has become markedly more realistic, but it's a lot harder now than in previous versions. Some people will say it's broken because of this.

[sosasoser]

I think that the reputation lag when you take a mini club to the top league in consecutive seasons has been in the game for as long as I can remember.

It does cause some trouble in the game that the club and its starlet manager is not taken very seriously if they don't take major trophies. If Elderberries Town FC rocketed through the leagues by coming second, and then stabilized as a 15th place Premier Leauge club winning no cups, how many seasons would they require to be seen as a real Premier Leauge club? 4? 40? 400? More importantly, how many victories would they get from being underestimated by other relegation candidates, and from their opponents banging their heads into the parked bus (when based on player quality they could have been on the offensive)?

That's sort of what happened in my current save and I didn't notice a major flaw in the system. I started as an American in League 1 with a Sunday league reputation. A brief rundown of trophies and league finishes.

Year 1: Won Johnstone's Paint Cup; lost in League 1 playoffs

Year 2: 2nd in League 1

Year 3: 2nd in Championship

Year 4: Dead last in Premier League; 8 points all season but avoided the sack

Year 5: 2nd in Championship

Year 6: 6th in Premier League

I stabilized from there. But as you can see I was rather adverse to winning trophies except for the one off in my first season. In Year 8 I won the Euro Cup, but it would be another four years before I won anything else.

As for job offers, I received three or four interview requests a season from teams at or about the same level as my club every year. They were mostly from English clubs, but there were a few odd foreign clubs thrown in. After winning the Euro Cup, I received no interview requests. They just stopped. The next December I noticed that the Arsenal and Celtic jobs were open. I applied to both and received media reports that both clubs were pleased a manager of my reputation was interested. Both jobs were offered to me and I turned them both down. For the next two years I then got asked to interview for every top job that came up. I received requests from Bayern, Dortmund, Barcelona, Chelsea, Man City, Monaco and Real Madrid twice. I turned them all down and the interview requests eventually stopped coming in. I've since been inducted in the England Hall of Fame and don't get offered jobs. About once a year the media will link me to some job. I say I'm not interested so no interview requests come.

Everything seemed about right to me. I was getting offered jobs all along. The big clubs didn't come calling in the first few years, but clubs with slightly higher reputations certainly did. After I won something of significance and had shown interest in leaving by interviewing with a couple of clubs, interview requests flooded in. They dried up when it was clear I wasn't interested in leaving.

That's just one save, of course. But, at least for me everything seemed to be working right.

[Arab]

Maybe I'm wrong but in real life Pochettino didn't have a great reputation in Spain before getting the Southampton job. One season with them and he gets the Spurs job. Don't get me wrong I think he's a good manager but replicating this in FM then some of the above

arguments would apply.

[Jimbokav1971]

Maybe I'm wrong but in real life Pochettino didn't have a great reputation in Spain before getting the Southampton job. One season with them and he gets the Spurs job. Don't get me wrong I think he's a good manager but replicating this in FM then some of the above

arguments would apply.

He's a million miles away from what we are discussing though, (and that part of the game seems to work quite well).

He is not just an ex professional footballer, he is an ex professional footballer who played at a high level and even played at International level for a major Nation. Then, as if that wasn't enough of a reputation builder, his first management job was managing a reasonably high-profile Spanish team where he had previously played.

He is already going to have a significant reputation. The OP in the other hand......

[Arab]

He's a million miles away from what we are discussing though, (and that part of the game seems to work quite well).

He is not just an ex professional footballer, he is an ex professional footballer who played at a high level and even played at International level for a major Nation. Then, as if that wasn't enough of a reputation builder, his first management job was managing a reasonably high-profile Spanish team where he had previously played.

He is already going to have a significant reputation. The OP in the other hand......

Yeah but, he didn't exactly set the heather on fire with his management at Espanyol

[Jimbokav1971]

It doesn't matter. He already had the reputation. that's how he got the job in the first place at Espanyol, (as an ex International footballer who used to play for them). Then, he got the job at Southampton as a continuation of that. It wasn't just managerial ability/reputation. There was still a carry-over as an ex International player. That is replicated fine within the game.

It's the very low starting level where the improvements are also quite low level where there might be an issue.

[Golden Boot]

This is a problem. Questions asked at him don't get answered. I think the length of his contract is important but i get a silly reply. Asked when he last went for a job in Portugal and again he fails to answer.

I have a life. And I am on holiday at the moment. Anyway, let's clear up a few things:

1) I have 18 months left on a £450 a week contract. Peanuts.

2) I have won the Campeonato de Nacional and the Liga 2 Cabovisao.

3) My win percentage is at 60% (i.e. I'm a master tactician when you consider that I have taken a small club up through the leagues)

4) I have been voted manager of the year twice I think

5) All being said and done, I should have got the Bury job - not been laughed off. I wouldn't have taken it as I consider it too low. Liga ZON SAGRES to League 2? Do me a favour.

Someone made a good point about the "invisible wall" effect. Just because I've never managed in England shouldn't automatically preclude me from interviews with clubs like Bury or higher. In terms of achievements I'm probably the hottest property in Portugal right now, as I've taken a backwater club to the top div and giving teams like Benfica and porto a real run for their money (we're currently above Porto with half a season left). At the end of the day, SOME club - even if it a Portugese club with a higher rep, like Vittoria Setubal for example - should have come in for me.

There is nowhere near enough interest in human managers by AI clubs.

[Jimbokav1971]

Golden Boot.

1. Your reputation is National. What makes you think that you should be recognised in a Country other than that which you are working in?

2. Have you played a full season in the top league in the Country yet? If you have, where did you finish?

3. Do you understand the points that were made about your successes being at a very low level, (taking into account the reputation of the league that you won)?

4. If you look at the reputation of these leagues, do you see what the other similar reputation leagues are?

[Dagenham_Dave]

I'm a master tactician

In terms of achievements I'm probably the hottest property in Portugal right now,

...and such modesty to go with it too.

Anyway, people have given you the reasons why you haven't been offered any top jobs, deal with it. Win some trophies in Portugal, win the league, then people will sit up and take notice. As it is, the only people who'll really be giving a toss will be your own fans and possiby the Portuguese media. The rest of Europe probably still haven't heard of you.

Still, you're a master tactician and the hottest property in Portugal, so I guess it's just a matter of time.

Incidentally, I'm enjoying life at Napoli after landing that job while manager of Hibs. Doesn't work though. Clearly.

[Just-Wool]

£450 a week over 18 months is still £35k. It's already been mentioned that Bury's wage budget is a lot smaller than that at the start of the game. So depending on how they did, they might be in a similar or worse position, so how could they justify paying the compensation to get someone in and pay double/treble their weekly wage bill to do it? It makes no financial sense for them to do so.

[Cougar2010]

£450 a week over 18 months is still £35k. It's already been mentioned that Bury's wage budget is a lot smaller than that at the start of the game. So depending on how they did, they might be in a similar or worse position, so how could they justify paying the compensation to get someone in and pay double/treble their weekly wage bill to do it? It makes no financial sense for them to do so.

I think it comes out of their transfer budget so the question would be do they have £35k in their transfer budget?

[Just-Wool]

I think it comes out of their transfer budget so the question would be do they have £35k in their transfer budget?

A league 1 or 2 side? So doubtful.

[CityAndColour]

£450 a week over 18 months is still £35k. It's already been mentioned that Bury's wage budget is a lot smaller than that at the start of the game. So depending on how they did, they might be in a similar or worse position, so how could they justify paying the compensation to get someone in and pay double/treble their weekly wage bill to do it? It makes no financial sense for them to do so.

The news item says "Bury have advised you your application to become their manager is unsuccessful as they are not willing to pay the compensation required" if that's the reason they are not considering you.

[kris0710]

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Read above.

I have a life. And I am on holiday at the moment. Anyway, let's clear up a few things:

1) I have 18 months left on a £450 a week contract. Peanuts.

2) I have won the Campeonato de Nacional and the Liga 2 Cabovisao.

3) My win percentage is at 60% (i.e. I'm a master tactician when you consider that I have taken a small club up through the leagues)

4) I have been voted manager of the year twice I think

5) All being said and done, I should have got the Bury job - not been laughed off. I wouldn't have taken it as I consider it too low. Liga ZON SAGRES to League 2? Do me a favour.

Someone made a good point about the "invisible wall" effect. Just because I've never managed in England shouldn't automatically preclude me from interviews with clubs like Bury or higher. In terms of achievements I'm probably the hottest property in Portugal right now, as I've taken a backwater club to the top div and giving teams like Benfica and porto a real run for their money (we're currently above Porto with half a season left). At the end of the day, SOME club - even if it a Portugese club with a higher rep, like Vittoria Setubal for example - should have come in for me.

There is nowhere near enough interest in human managers by AI clubs.

I don't see what 'having a life' or being on holiday has to do with you giving me such an answer!

1) Contract may sound like peanuts but it is still £35k a club would have to pay in compensation. A club like Bury i would expect to not be able to afford such a price.

2) You have won leagues equivalent to Skrill Premier and League Two in terms of rep. Would you expect the manager of Chesterfield to be in the running for the Bordeaux job right now?

Fully agree that you should be getting more recognition withing Portugal, not from a top team but a side who comfortability sit around mid table.

[kris0710]

The news item says "Bury have advised you your application to become their manager is unsuccessful as they are not willing to pay the compensation required" if that's the reason they are not considering you.

It may well have said that, we just don't know. I am not completely sure it says that 100% of the time when money is an issue though.

[Just-Wool]

Either way, whatever the outcome, we know the AI chairmen are sometimes either bad at being pro active (especially with human players) and the game doesn't really give you that much feedback as to why you didn't get a job.

Not to say the reasons why people don't get jobs are not correct, the game just needs to portray that a little better.

[Chinook2000]

Come to think of it how many Club's has Neil Lennon been linked with?The Scottish League may not be as strong as Portugal but Celtic will be a higher rep Club than the OP's his success with Celtic-including a couple of good Champions league seasons-will be noticed far more in England yet he still hasn't being linked to a top EPL or Championship job.

Is this thread identical too the Manger rep one?

[forameuss]

Come to think of it how many Club's has Neil Lennon been linked with?The Scottish League may not be as strong as Portugal but Celtic will be a higher rep Club than the OP's his success with Celtic-including a couple of good Champions league seasons-will be noticed far more in England yet he still hasn't being linked to a top EPL or Championship job.

Is this thread identical too the Manger rep one?

Quite a few clubs actually. He's linked to most lower-to-mid-table Premiership sides, and would be a leading candidate for Championship sides. But probably only due to the few good Champions League results, he's had some stinkers too.

[tomtuck01]

Bukovyna Chernivtsi; June 2013 - June 2015

Brighton & Hove Albion; October 2015 - June 2017

Benfica; June 2017 - December 2020

Tottenham Hotspur; December 2020 - July 2022

Bayern Munich; July 2022 - July 2029

Barcelona; July 2029 - Present

I started unemployed. Just before leaving Bukovyna, Shakhtar Donetsk offered me an interview. I didn't get the job, but still resigned from Bukovyna. After leaving them I was offered interviews at Hangzhou Nabel Greentown and Brighton & Hove Albion, choosing to join the latter.

I wouldn't say the job market is broken.

[BoxToBox]

I think there are at least 2 problems with looking to real life for evidence about how the reputations of rapid-risers should be treated. One is that a decent to good FM player can achieve a lot more with smaller clubs than what you see in real life. There aren't many real life stories of Skrill level clubs going to the Premiership in the space of, say, 7 seasons, but it does happen in the game. The other is that real life managers have ways of building reputation that aren't available to FM players, namely taking positions as other than the head coach. Someone mentioned Brendan Rodgers earlier starting out coaching reserves and youth sides; surely this helped him build his network in the "biz" but it's not possible to do inside FM. On that basis I think it's reasonable to provide a bit of reputation assistance to Sunday Leaguers compared to their real life counterparts, because in real life there are options for breaking into coaching other than jumping straight to the Head Coach position at a 7th tier club in West Bumwangistan.

The closest I've gotten to that kind of real life development was after getting a Skrill North team prmoted in my first season(via playoffs, lucky), I saw the Barca B team had no manager, declared interest. They said flattered, but couldn't afford my compo, so I quit the job I had, applied and got it. Two years of babying Barcelona's kids, and getting them to the Spanish 2nd div, and my rep was decent enough in Spain that I landed a recently vacated Espanyol job after taking a punt on it. Once I started doing well with them, the job offers rolled in. I stayed there fwiw, and made them a European powerhouse.

[Lawlore]

Bukovyna Chernivtsi; June 2013 - June 2015

Brighton & Hove Albion; October 2015 - June 2017

Benfica; June 2017 - December 2020

Tottenham Hotspur; December 2020 - July 2022

Bayern Munich; July 2022 - July 2029

Barcelona; July 2029 - Present

I started unemployed. Just before leaving Bukovyna, Shakhtar Donetsk offered me an interview. I didn't get the job, but still resigned from Bukovyna. After leaving them I was offered interviews at Hangzhou Nabel Greentown and Brighton & Hove Albion, choosing to join the latter.

I wouldn't say the job market is broken.

I'm curious where Brighton were at the point you took over- that strikes me as quite a jump to Benfica. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that you must've impressed.

And, to keep this on topic- while Baxter's a good example, the one I'd use is London-born Stephen Constantine. He's now managing his fifth national team, having become pretty successful in Cyprus- promoted twice in his first two stints as manager of APEP FC, and winning the Football Writers' Manager of the Year Award. As manager of Nepal, he received the country's highest form of recognition for a foreigner, after leading the side to a runners-up spot in the South Asia Games. Whilst manager of India, he led the national side to numerous finals in various competitions, and received recognition as AFC Manager of the Month in November 2003. Other international jobs- and relative success- came with Sudan and Malawi, until he returned to Cyprus, performing a "miracle" at Nea Salaminas, taking them from bottom of the table to promotion in one season, in 2012.

In 2012, he very publicly declared interest in the vacant Gillingham (then League 2) job, having previously applied for jobs at Northampton and Stevenage (both League 2 at the time). He didn't get any of them, and is now manager of... Rwanda.

[tomtuck01]

I'm curious where Brighton were at the point you took over- that strikes me as quite a jump to Benfica. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that you must've impressed.

Brighton were 19th in League One after eleven games when I took over after being relegated from the Championship the previous season. We won the league that season by 21 points, winning 31 and drawing 4 of our remaining games. The following season we won the Championship with 99pts, finishing two clear of Nottingham Forest.

That season Benfica had finished 4th in the Portuguese League. I play as a Portuguese man, so I imagine that may have aided my cause.

Overall at Brighton I won 65 of 91 games in charge, a win percentage of 71%.

[Gazzaroon]

I don't believe the job market is broken, but I would like to see more 'interest' from clubs when you start doing well. I am doing a Coventry save at the moment and have taken them to the PL. I did take a punt at the vacant Real Madrid job when it became vacant whilst still in the Championship! You have to try, don't you? They politely declined my kind application - hehe.

I did get offered a job interview with Lazio and attended, but decided to stay with Coventry to see how we did in the first season in the PL. My rep sits at continental, which i think is fair.

Now, that I have taken a club from Sky bet league 1 to Premiership, I would like to see my name connected to more jobs in the media. Even if it's just a cheeky journalist making up the story it would be nice to see my name associated with some of the good clubs. Plus, I do attend interviews to keep the Board on their toes.

[Golden Boot]

I don't believe the job market is broken, but I would like to see more 'interest' from clubs when you start doing well. Now, that I have taken a club from Sky bet league 1 to Premiership, I would like to see my name connected to more jobs in the media. Even if it's just a cheeky journalist making up the story it would be nice to see my name associated with some of the good clubs. Plus, I do attend interviews to keep the Board on their toes.

How can you say that the job market is not broken when you have taken Coventry from League 1 to the Prem and you still don't see your name linked with any jobs? This is my point (that most people are either too ignorant or stupid to grasp in this thread): there is simply not enough interest from AI clubs in human managers. I'm now in the semi final of the Portugese cup and only a few points outside the European places in the league, and I still get absolutely no job offers whatsoever. Even more disconcertingly, my name has not been linked to a single job within Portugal or anywhere else for 5 years, despite making "amazing" improvements to the club's rep.

I can maybe (kind of) understand clubs outside of Portugal not taking an interest, but to not be linked with a single job IN Portugal EVER despite taking Espinho from the depths to the edge of a very successful season in the top flight is, quite frankly, ridiculous however you look at it. It's clear evidence that the job market IS broken. Really needs addressing.

[kris0710]

How can you say that the job market is not broken when you have taken Coventry from League 1 to the Prem and you still don't see your name linked with any jobs? This is my point (that most people are either too ignorant or stupid to grasp in this thread): there is simply not enough interest from AI clubs in human managers. I'm now in the semi final of the Portugese cup and only a few points outside the European places in the league, and I still get absolutely no job offers whatsoever. Even more disconcertingly, my name has not been linked to a single job within Portugal or anywhere else for 5 years, despite making "amazing" improvements to the club's rep.I can maybe (kind of) understand clubs outside of Portugal not taking an interest, but to not be linked with a single job IN Portugal EVER despite taking Espinho from the depths to the edge of a very successful season in the top flight is, quite frankly, ridiculous however you look at it. It's clear evidence that the job market IS broken. Really needs addressing.

His name is has not been linked but he seems to have success when going for jobs. An interview with Lazio is a big deal. To counter that though I assume Gazzaroon started with a higher rep. I think most of us agree that within Portugal you should be getting a little more interest. Talking about getting to a semi final and just outside European places is a bit dim though, you still have achieved anything in the cup or qualified for Europe. Rather than moaning constantly why don't you lower your sights in terms of who apply for, to a side more around the rep you are and I am sure you will see more success. When Nigel Adkins took Southampton up from league one in successive seasons his name wasn't mentioned with big clubs while Paul Lambert when at Norwich seemed to be linked with former club Celtic rather tediously and Aston Villa. Not exactly a top side now are they? I never get reason why people moan about not being linked with jobs. When a job comes up there are probably about 15 names you could link with the job but FM only speaks about three. Heaven forbid the day we get a huge page of names for every job going. Because you aren't in the top three Doesn't mean you aren't in the running. Maybe the time has come for the managers to have a agent who we instruct to let us know of jobs and our chances of success. I am sure that happens in RL.

[Cougar2010]

This is my point (that most people are either too ignorant or stupid to grasp in this thread): there is simply not enough interest from AI clubs in human managers.

Your situation has been explained to you a number of times in this thread, are you too ignorant or stupid to understand them?

The fact is its not broken, its not perfect either but its acceptable and falls somewhere between the two.

I also suspect it will be tweaked for the next version so we get slightly more offers.

[themadsheep2001]

Keep it civil please, or I will simply close the thread.

[Gazzaroon]

How can you say that the job market is not broken when you have taken Coventry from League 1 to the Prem and you still don't see your name linked with any jobs? This is my point (that most people are either too ignorant or stupid to grasp in this thread): there is simply not enough interest from AI clubs in human managers. I'm now in the semi final of the Portugese cup and only a few points outside the European places in the league, and I still get absolutely no job offers whatsoever. Even more disconcertingly, my name has not been linked to a single job within Portugal or anywhere else for 5 years, despite making "amazing" improvements to the club's rep.

I can maybe (kind of) understand clubs outside of Portugal not taking an interest, but to not be linked with a single job IN Portugal EVER despite taking Espinho from the depths to the edge of a very successful season in the top flight is, quite frankly, ridiculous however you look at it. It's clear evidence that the job market IS broken. Really needs addressing.

You miss understand somewhat. I started the game as an international footballer so a higher rep than you. But, my rep is only continental now that I am in the Premier league. Why would anyone offer me a job when all I had done is lead a team up the league structure. Whilst it would be nice, in my opinion, to be connected or associated with other teams realistically I hadn't proven myself at all. I had been linked with same league clubs and offered the West Ham job when they were in the championship and struggling. I turned it down. I thought to be even interviewed for the Lazio job was an achievement.

Gazzaroon started with a higher rep.

Yes I did.

[CloudYildiz]

I had the same problem OP did.

I started unemployed with sunday league footballer experience and applied to every job available. Eventually i got the Uniao Madeira job (Portuguese second league). My ultimate goal was to win the Champions League eventually and noticed that it would be impossible with Madeira. Once i got promoted, i saw that Porto, Benfica and Sporting were unreachable for me, cause i couldn't grow with Madeira. After a few years in the premier league ending around 6th place, and playing few Europa League games, i started to apply for every high-profile job. At every one, i got either dismissed or laughed at, even at Championship clubs. And NO ONE approached me for a job, not even when Porto/Benfica/Sporting were available. So i buckled down and eventually at one season i got second and that got me the Champions League qualifiers. I qualified for the Champions League and a had a very good start winning my first 3 matches. During winter break i noticed that Schalke was available and after making alot of promises, i got the Schalke job and within a few years i won the Champions League, mission completed.

My point is, not winning the league or cup in Portugal gets you nowhere, your best bet would be to get international success, then you'll see those offers streaming in.

[Golden Boot]

At every one, i got either dismissed or laughed at, even at Championship clubs. And NO ONE approached me for a job, not even when Porto/Benfica/Sporting were available.

And you think this is right? More evidence of how screwed this game is. To not be offered ANY job after a decent amount of success is just wrong. If real life were like FM the Job Centre would be full of unemployed managers.

There is clearly something wrong with the game. There is no doubt about that. I'm amazed how many people have the same problem (i.e. no offers at all - even from within the same country) and just plod on with their save regardless. Maybe I expect too much from the game.

I'm having another good season and we're no too far away from getting into Europe so I'll see what happens next season.

[kris0710]

And you think this is right? More evidence of how screwed this game is. To not be offered ANY job after a decent amount of success is just wrong. If real life were like FM the Job Centre would be full of unemployed managers.

There is clearly something wrong with the game. There is no doubt about that. I'm amazed how many people have the same problem (i.e. no offers at all - even from within the same country) and just plod on with their save regardless. Maybe I expect too much from the game.

I'm having another good season and we're no too far away from getting into Europe so I'll see what happens next season.

The guy has taken a side up one league and managed to finish 'around 6th' in the league. That isn't all that difficult in a league with a 3.5* rep. Why would Championship sides (a 3* league) be sniffing around?

Then came some success, getting into the Champions League. Applies for a job at Schalke and gets it! You see, he achieves something and gets a good job from it.

I think you hit the nail on the head, you expect too much. If you want offers left, right and centre then up your rep at the start. Just as RL - in most cases reputation gets you everywhere!

[jack1712]

This is a problem, no point pretending other wise.

Started as Dover manager with Sunday League rep. Got consecutive promotions from TSS to L2. Got sacked when I got relegated the next season.

I then got the FC Halifax job in TSN who sacked me after losing in play offs.

Workington employed me in TSN and I got them promoted after 3 years. The board gave me a £4000 per week budget in TSP which is a joke so I resigned.

Got the Bath job in TSS and got promoted affter 2 years then got sacked after a mid table finish.

I am now Havant and Waterlooville manager and have achieved another promotion to TSP.

I recently had interest in the Wrexham job (same division) laughed at. How many promotions do I need before I am able to get a job that isnt bottom hslf TSN or TSS?!

[kris0710]

This is a problem, no point pretending other wise.

Started as Dover manager with Sunday League rep. Got consecutive promotions from TSS to L2. Got sacked when I got relegated the next season.

I then got the FC Halifax job in TSN who sacked me after losing in play offs.

Workington employed me in TSN and I got them promoted after 3 years. The board gave me a £4000 per week budget in TSP which is a joke so I resigned.

Got the Bath job in TSS and got promoted affter 2 years then got sacked after a mid table finish.

I am now Havant and Waterlooville manager and have achieved another promotion to TSP.

I recently had interest in the Wrexham job (same division) laughed at. How many promotions do I need before I am able to get a job that isnt bottom hslf TSN or TSS?!

So thats 5 promotions -

3 sackings and one resignation -

Without knowing the exact science to manager reputation you can surely see your rep would have taken a hit for each of the three sackings. I have been led to believe that resigning is a wrong move in FM, hits your rep more than getting the sack. You have also suffered relegation which too should hit your rep.

[Cougar2010]

This is a problem, no point pretending other wise.

Started as Dover manager with Sunday League rep. Got consecutive promotions from TSS to L2. Got sacked when I got relegated the next season.

I then got the FC Halifax job in TSN who sacked me after losing in play offs.

Workington employed me in TSN and I got them promoted after 3 years. The board gave me a £4000 per week budget in TSP which is a joke so I resigned.

Got the Bath job in TSS and got promoted affter 2 years then got sacked after a mid table finish.

I am now Havant and Waterlooville manager and have achieved another promotion to TSP.

I recently had interest in the Wrexham job (same division) laughed at. How many promotions do I need before I am able to get a job that isnt bottom hslf TSN or TSS?!

Dover - Two promotions then relegated and sacked - A little progress but not a huge amount there.

Halifax - Lost in playoffs and sacked - Again little progress made.

Workington - Promoted after three years then threw the toys out of the pram when you couldn't control your budgets - Little progress made.

Bath - Promoted then sacked when not meeting targets I presume - A little progress again.

H&V - Promoted.

While achieving bits and pieces along the way you've consistently not met targets at stages along the way resulting in your three sackings. Was Halifax in the bottom half of TSN/TSS?

Why should the promotions mean much when you fail later?