Match Engine Update 13.1.3 - quick overview. ME feedback here please.

[milnerpoint]

How many were stretchered off during a match?

In the last 4 games, we have taken off 4 players because they had knocks, and another 2 have gone off and missed a few weeks. We've had a striker out all season until a week ago with a stomace problem, a right back with a broken foot, our entire midfield has been out the last 2 games except for one senior player, to the point we are playing our main target man as a central midfielder, we have 2 wingers, one of has been out for 2 weeks, we have re-trainined another striker to be a right back to cover us.

[Jibby123]

[video=youtube;GxeDnX1mwzs]

*Bangs head on desk repeatedly*

David Seaman knows how you feel. Ask Nayim and Ronaldinhio.

[Casual]

Dear SI,

The key concept for every release should be, if you fixed something- leave it that way. If you once fixed throw-ins eg. how is it possible that in the next version of the game it can all be messed up again? Same goes for injuries, transfers and of course the whole ME. I understand the need to change something every year, but I know there are so many new options that you can put to make the game better, because I alone can give you at least 5 new ideas and propositions without even thinking too hard.

But don't mess with something if it works well, if the majority of the people in community agree that it's good. I also know that in FM and generally programming if you change something it affects other things so problems can appear, but I still can't get into my head how each and every year is so bugged with goalkeeper mistakes for example? If you sort out goalkeeper's behavior once, and you see little or no complaints, and you conclude THAT'S THAT, than have it like that for the next 5 years until the point where you revolutionize the ME completely. You claim you changed it this year, even though my eye can't see the graphical improvments, and as a matter of fact it's also having problems seeing the tiny white thing that's called a ball. If the engine of the game was completely changed, like the time when you first introduced 3D match, I bet you wouldn't get as much critics, because reasonable people would understand that you changed something completely and that it needs work and time to be good. But over the years the look of the match hasn't changed radically, but we still get the same bugs, the same idiotic defence movements, the unimaginable goalkepeer mistakes and many many more. People who buy the game just don't understand that.

I sadly have to conclude this is the Football Manager life that I'm living every year, and I'm sure many will agree with me on this:

1st phase - SEPTEMBER-OCTOBER- 3 months of waiting for a new manager. After summer holidays, the new season starts in August and I'm slowly starting to give up the previos version of FM, in expectation of the new game that has new transfers that occured during summer and brand new features that were announced by Miles Jacobson usually with phrases like "completely revamped scouting system/transfer system/media system,_________(fill in your own) system, 10 thousand new animations, 50 thousand new little things and whatnot. I know I shouldn't be too euphoric because I've been cheated before, but the long period of waiting for the new game and the old feelings and sparks I have in my soul for this game don't give me peace so I can't help but impatiantly and enthusiasticaly expect the new release. I'm always a bit bitter because the game doesn't come out earlier because it's logical to come out when the season starts not 2-3 months after it, after all SI would have a year to make the game in any case so it's a mistery why it has to be so late (maybe the employees' summer vacations?), but OK... If it will be good I'll wait, what else can I do...

2nd phase - NOVEMBER - The football season is already heated up in every country including my own (Serbia, where the first part finishes at the end of November) and after a lot of waiting and expectation FM finally comes out and I buy it the very first day. it's here I try to avoid forums so I don't see any comments about bugs and mistakes, because those comments can put a weight on my mind and I could "search" for bugs instead of just enjoying the game. Sadly, not a lot of time goes by before the bugs are shown to me very boldly because they affect the game too much that only a blind man would miss them. I try to enjoy the game, but unrealistic situations usually in the ME, happen to often and just don't let me be at peace and be satisfied. Then I visit the forums and read about the same problems that people have all over the world, and I conclude that I'm not imagining things and I wait for a new patch that now people from SI call an "update". Of course I stop playing the game because it's just unbearable and it insults my inteligence to play something that flawed.

3d phase- DECEMBER - The phase we're all in at the moment. The first patch has come out. It solved a couple of problems, but not the major ones. New problems occured in the process of solving the initial ones. I start a new season eagerly and finish the transfer period but things that happen on the pitch once again put me off and completely kill all the enthusiasm I had. The new patch is scheduled before Christmas and again I have to wait for it, while I'm not playing the game because I just can't bear to play something that has flaws that affect my team's performances and I can't do nothing about it. I feel vulnerable as a gamer, and as a manager, because FM is not an FPS, RPG or an RTS game were bugs can be unoticable and may not affect the game as a whole. FM is all about details, and in this state it just doesn't deliver the things everybody buys it for.

4th PHASE- JANUARY- MARCH- The patch has come out before Christmas and we all finally hope it has fixed things that we were annoyed about, but as it usually goes there are many bugs again that serious long-time FM player like myself can't overlook. The transfer period is already in progress and all over the Europe clubs are selling and buying, many renovating their teams completely. I play the game, even though I'm annoyed that I just took over my team that at the moment has a very different squad. I don't wanto to download any transfer updates from other websites, because another patch is scheduled for release in February which is very near. I also lose the desire to play FM, because I know it will soon be updated, all bugs should finally be fixed and the brand new transfers will be there as well, so why start a new season when I will have to do it over again in a matter of weeks? So again I wait... Usually the patch is late, it comes out at the end of February (maybe the winter holidays delay it?)- and people are impatient which reflects on the forums where they constantly ask, like over the whole year, WHEN IS THE PATCH COMING OUT?

5th phase- MARCH- JULY- This is the period when I play FM the most. I admit, the game is now more playable than before and I get my share of enjoyment, although usually playing against a friend because it adds the competitive factor that makes the game more interesting and it's also easier to whine when you have company, about bugs and strange things that happen which are of course not completely fixed, and I don't think they will ever be. If we are lucky we will get the acceptable version of the game at this point. If you thought, read and wrote too much about bugs and issues that were happening before there is a chance you will be too burdened by the past that you will continue looking for problems and see the past problems in a new version. Eg. last year the game was to easy which was admited by SI that was caused by bugs in player's morale being too superb and easily maintened. Later on, when the last patch came out, this burdened my mind because I was thinking morale is the most important thing in the game and how they tweaked it, and untill the very end the game still seemed too easy for me because of that wrong beginning and morale problems, I kept tripping about it all the time... It's hard to explain this to everyone, but I bet there are people who understand it. It's down to a personality, if someone has an easygoing mind he won't be bothered by many things that I mentioned, but I'm and FM fanatic & football fanatic so it's not easy to relax and enjoy after posting on the bugs forums, after discussing the game in depth with other users, after reading about hundreds of bugs etc. I bet many testers have the same barriere in their had, because FM is their job, it's their job to fix things, discuss it, go in depth... But I don't want it to be my job! I don't want to be on the forums, but I have to because SI solves many problems by listening to their community, and many times they don't consider the problems until a lot of people appear on here and post it. The fact that you always have smartasses who claim not to have that problem and scream DON'T CHANGE NOTHING SI, makes the thing even more complicated and worse. So the fact that we all have to be here and interract with SI for months to make the game good in February, doesn't help us later on to be relaxed and enjoy the end product. I would never be a tester because it would ruin the game for me. But unfortunately we all are testers in a way, we are guiney pigs from the demo, via beta version, up untill the game itself. And we should just be able to pay for the game, play it and enjoy it. Maybe there should be one patch made, and that's it. Alas...

6th phase- JULY- SEPTEMBER- The new transfers occured and major changes in the clubs all over the world, new young stars appear that were maybe not predicted to be as good in FM so they might have awful attributes in the game. You are still playing FM but the combination of changes in the teams and your own summer affairs (we also have a vacation;) maybe prevent you to play as much as before, you are a bit tired of everything. Soon there will be a new game, new promises, new REVAMPED, REDESIGNED and REVOLUTIONIZED features that will again make FM "the best game SI ever made!". No real competition in the genre definetely doesn't help SI's cockyness and gives me the feeling that many things are like this because SI knows they can do whatever they want, and people will still buy the game... Because real football manager and football fans will always be hooked to this game, even with all dissapointing things that they witness year after year. I hope SI will wake up one day, and stop hiding behind statistics that definetely do show that they have monopoly and high sales every year, but realize that they are not making the game only for themselves and their profits, but for the players who made them what they are today and have been playing the game for 5, 10, 15 years. If you are listening to community about bugs and such issues, listen to them about this as well.

Maybe no one will read this, and it will be lost in the sea of complaints here (I didn't want to open a new topic and give myself significance), but hopefully 1 FM player will read it and agree with me, either way I had to get these things of my chest and feel better, even though I could write about this for hours...

[milnerpoint]

But they are making the game for a profit, not because you have bought it for however many years, the game is not made for you, its a buisness, they are in this to make money, what interests you may not interest the next person at all, what you find an issue, the next finds something they enjoy. Thats the nature of games and forums, everyone has an opinion on how it should work, but we are not all correct. SI have to find a middle ground in amongst the nonsense that gets posted on here from both sides.

[CityAndColour]

Fixes have knock on effects. It's never as simple as fixing something and then locking it, because changing something else can then mean the original thing you fixed gets knocked out again. It's a very difficult balancing act, which is why loading PKMs to the bug forum is helpful. Different things might cause the same action.

However, this is still a feedback thread and paying customers should be entitled to have a bit of whinge if they feel the need to, without the usual jobsworths coming in and challenging every bit of criticism.

[milnerpoint]

Ill assume im the jobsworth your meaning, i was only pointing out that the game is made for profit, and not "for the fans" as he seems to indicate, never said a word about his critisims of the game. Wind your neck in.

[mrdorf]

Reading this thread has justified the reason I never buy the game on release: It's always full of bugs year in year out. I just tend to wait until March when they release the 'proper' game with very few bugs.

[Äktsjon Männ]

However, this is still a feedback thread and paying customers should be entitled to have a bit of whinge if they feel the need to, without the usual jobsworths coming in and challenging every bit of criticism.

Especially as the above is a good post, if a bit exaggerated at some points. This year there actually have been fundamental ME changes (although not enough of them, which is my main gripe) so you have to somewhat accept the bugs and glitches. But it's always been the same thing every year except for maybe FM12 when they kept the same engine - and even that had a major flaw with the morale thing. I've always felt the going round in circles thing with the ME. The same things cropping up year after year after being fixed for the umpteenth time. Hopefully the changes this year allow them to go beyond this and actually fix some of the more historically prevalent issues for good.

[alfonzotheace]

Couldnt agree with casual more, sums it up perfectly, if its not particularly broke and you're not making radical changes leave it alone. kinda feel aggrieved at paying £30 for a (in my opinion) 3/4 finished game, do appreciate the work that goes into fixing the bugs though.

[Jibby123]

.....However, this is still a feedback thread and paying customers should be entitled to have a bit of whinge if they feel the need to, without the usual jobsworths coming in and challenging every bit of criticism.

Fair one, have whinged myself enough years gone by here, but sometimes real life events over decades wake you up to think "wtf. it's just a game. meltdowns sound pathetic about the game if it doesn't reflect real life exactly". Try it. Or maybe not. Would love go back to thinking it's worth getting a hissy over.

Reading this thread has justified the reason I never buy the game on release: It's always full of bugs year in year out. I just tend to wait until March when they release the 'proper' game with very few bugs.

This is a fair shout. If you buy enough computer games, this one as well, over the years you'll now how these things work. It shouldn't, but if everyone waited until games were fully patched then maybe games producers might change, until then..... But it's a 'want want want now now now' society I guess?? Couldn't possibly wait that long thinking and all. As example see this place when peeps are waiting for release or patch release in the few days before.

[Govnar1]

Especially as the above is a good post, if a bit exaggerated at some points. This year there actually have been fundamental ME changes (although not enough of them, which is my main gripe) so you have to somewhat accept the bugs and glitches. But it's always been the same thing every year except for maybe FM12 when they kept the same engine - and even that had a major flaw with the morale thing. I've always felt the going round in circles thing with the ME. The same things cropping up year after year after being fixed for the umpteenth time. Hopefully the changes this year allow them to go beyond this and actually fix some of the more historically prevalent issues for good.

You forgot add/remove league - revolutionary new feature that destroyed many good saves in FM12.

[mrdorf]

This is a fair shout. If you buy enough computer games, this one as well, over the years you'll now how these things work. It shouldn't, but if everyone waited until games were fully patched then maybe games producers might change, until then..... But it's a 'want want want now now now' society I guess?? Couldn't possibly wait that long thinking and all. As example see this place when peeps are waiting for release or patch release in the few days before.

I can entertain myself with other games so waiting til March doesn't bother me too much. I think the demand for the next version every year puts pressure on game developers and so a 'rushed' and slightly tweaked version is made every time. FIFA do this constantly and I must admit I buy their game every year but I can deal with it because I'm not looking for a complex game from them. In all fairness, with sports games, who can wait 2 or 3 years for the next edition? SI have no choice or maybe they could release one in March. Not sure how their fanbase would feel about that though?

[Jibby123]

I can entertain myself with other games so waiting til March doesn't bother me too much. I think the demand for the next version every year puts pressure on game developers and so a 'rushed' and slightly tweaked version is made every time. FIFA do this constantly and I must admit I buy their game every year but I can deal with it because I'm not looking for a complex game from them. In all fairness, with sports games, who can wait 2 or 3 years for the next edition? SI have no choice or maybe they could release one in March. Not sure how their fanbase would feel about that though?

That's it though, I think you have it right. You make an informed choice, knowing how it is and accepting it for better or worse. For those that can't/won't, and it bothers them enough to get stressed/angry over, the March annual buy of FM instead of November is obvious. Computer games shouldn't make you angry, especially when there's a solution to it (buy it in March every year, still getting a year's playing time).

And enough people did this, then games producers would be forced to adjust or die. But people won't, or not enough, even when they know what they might be letting themselves in for....frustration/anger.

[Keyzer Soze]

I dont understand why people complain about the game saying they are frustrated with the game.

Common, every year SI release the demo, you got the chance to try the game before you buy it.

What do you expect? You try the demo, you dont like the game... but then you expect to love the game that it's released after 2 weeks?? That doesn't makes sense to me.

[Herbert Fandel]

I dont understand why people complain about the game saying they are frustrated with the game.

Common, every year SI release the demo, you got the chance to try the game before you buy it.

What do you expect? You try the demo, you dont like the game... but then you expect to love the game that it's released after 2 weeks?? That doesn't makes sense to me.

I mostly agree with you, but I can see how people can be frustrated if they enjoyed the ME on one patch, perhaps one that featured at the time they played the demo, to then have it changed later. I think the latest patch is the best, but I can see how others may find it less 'enjoyable'.

I also agree with Casual above about Miles and his pre-release spraff. I'll still buy the next FM, but I won't again buy into his generous bending of the truth for the purposes of promoting the game

[themadsheep2001]

I can entertain myself with other games so waiting til March doesn't bother me too much. I think the demand for the next version every year puts pressure on game developers and so a 'rushed' and slightly tweaked version is made every time. FIFA do this constantly and I must admit I buy their game every year but I can deal with it because I'm not looking for a complex game from them. In all fairness, with sports games, who can wait 2 or 3 years for the next edition? SI have no choice or maybe they could release one in March. Not sure how their fanbase would feel about that though?

For every person who would want it in March, you'd get one asking why it isnt released earlier. Hell every year there are people who complain why it isnt released when the season starts.

[Casual]

milnerpoint

i was only pointing out that the game is made for profit, and not "for the fans" as he seems to indicate, never said a word about his critisims of the game

The two are linked mate. There is no profit without the fans, no? And they wouldn't be in this position if it weren't for fans, we made them what they are, so at least some dose of morale must be present.

Keyzer Soze

I dont understand why people complain about the game saying they are frustrated with the game.

Common, every year SI release the demo, you got the chance to try the game before you buy it.

What do you expect? You try the demo, you dont like the game... but then you expect to love the game that it's released after 2 weeks?? That doesn't makes sense to me.

The function of people who come here and defend the game and the developers from "evil" critics and complaints make much less sense than people who are not satisfied with the game. If you like it, go enjoy it, get off the forums! I'd do that if I had no issues. For real. All these stories wouldn't interest me at all!! I'd be at players&staff forum section looking for ways to improve my team. I'm hooked to the game, and I'll buy it every year even if the demo is awful, cause I'll always naively hope it will get better. Because of people like me, who buy the game regardless of anything, SI can issue the same game every year if they want and will still get their precious profits.

[Herbert Fandel]

The function of people who come here and defend the game and the developers from "evil" critics and complaints make much less sense than people who are not satisfied with the game. If you like it, go enjoy it, get off the forums! I'd do that if I had no issues. For real. All these stories wouldn't interest me at all!!

You obviously haven't heard of the little-known academic discipline known as football manager discourse. Like any subject in life, there is a certain pleasure to be derived from discussing it in far greater detail than it truly deserves. Maybe one day degrees will even be issued in the discourse, would be more useful than most issued these days.

P.s. - Windowed mode means one can do both at the same time.

I'd be at players&staff forum section looking for ways to improve my team.

Why not use your scouts? Searching the internet for players is comparable to using certain cheat software in my opinion. Up to you how you play the game though.

[Casual]

Why not use your scouts? Searching the internet for players is comparable to using certain cheat software in my opinion. Up to you how you play the game though.

I do both, don't have a problem with looking for players on forums especially when I have a low budget and low reputation. But as you said, that's down to a person and a way of playing, it's pointless to discuss it.

You obviously haven't heard of the little-known academic discipline known as football manager discourse. Like any subject in life, there is a certain pleasure to be derived from discussing it in far greater detail than it truly deserves. Maybe one day degrees will even be issued in the discourse, would be more useful than most issued these days.

Look at few posts above, I mastered that But people not understanding how someone can complain..... that's a mistery to me seriously

[themadsheep2001]

ME feedback:

Is it possible to add more events to comprehensive, especially the yellow cards. Lasts years extended showed all the yellow cards on each side as highlights, this year it only shows some. It might just be me, but its really frustrating not being able to see them! Maybe add a 5th version of highlights, to sit between full match and comprehensive?

[nottmred1]

Why not use your scouts? Searching the internet for players is comparable to using certain cheat software in my opinion. Up to you how you play the game though.

I never understand this argument. Do you honestly think that managers only signed players that their own scouts have recommeded?

[Keyzer Soze]

The function of people who come here and defend the game and the developers from "evil" critics and complaints make much less sense than people who are not satisfied with the game. If you like it, go enjoy it, get off the forums! I'd do that if I had no issues. For real. All these stories wouldn't interest me at all!! I'd be at players&staff forum section looking for ways to improve my team. I'm hooked to the game, and I'll buy it every year even if the demo is awful, cause I'll always naively hope it will get better. Because of people like me, who buy the game regardless of anything, SI can issue the same game every year if they want and will still get their precious profits.

You miss my point. I'm not happy with the game. In fact i've stop playing it, and i have go back to FM2012 (first time in my FM history that i've gone back to a previous version).

I think this version of the ME have too many bugs at the moment and most of the games i get the feeling that i'm playing a russian roulette game. Because of that i've decided to go back to FM2012. At least in FM2012 i know waht to expect.

But my point was... when i play the demo i immediately knew that this year ME will be a trouble one. Why? Well, we have the colision detection, the new ball movement... too many things had changed from the previous version so, imo, it's only natural that this year ME would be almost like a "test-drive ME".

And despite i knew all this, i still buy the game. Why? Well... i love the game, and the truth is, it's the only game i buy.

But, do i have the right to be angry at SI? I dont think so... i knew what i was getting into... so...

[Casual]

You miss my point. I'm not happy with the game. In fact i've stop playing it, and i have go back to FM2012 (first time in my FM history that i've gone back to a previous version).

I think this version of the ME have too many bugs at the moment and most of the games i get the feeling that i'm playing a russian roulette game. Because of that i've decided to go back to FM2012. At least in FM2012 i know waht to expect.

But my point was... when i play the demo i immediately knew that this year ME will be a trouble one. Why? Well, we have the colision detection, the new ball movement... too many things had changed from the previous version so, imo, it's only natural that this year ME would be almost like a "test-drive ME".

And despite i knew all this, i still buy the game. Why? Well... i love the game, and the truth is, it's the only game i buy.

But, do i have the right to be angry at SI? I dont think so... i knew what i was getting into... so...

Good for you if you can conclude everything from the demo. I can't because patches are tricky things that can improve a lot, and I think we've witnessed many times before situations where the game is very bad in the beginning but improves a lot at the end. Even if it doesn't improve, you lie to yourself that it maybe will, they lie to you every year because they patch it 5 times. By having patches they give you hope, sometimes false sometimes right, that it will get better, they don't have to say anything. And like hypnotized sheep that we are, FM and football fanatics we will buy it every time. So if I know, that I will buy it every time, I want to say what I have to say, even though my comments are probably not read, or taken lightly or whatever. I'll do that every year, until one day when I maybe lose my passion, if that day ever happens.

But when less addicted people ask me, mate how is FM should I buy it, I tell them don't waste your $ before March. Then call me, and I'll tell you how things stand with the end product. Everything before that is just a farce.

[Guest sciegu]

Dear SI,

The key concept for every release should be, if you fixed something- leave it that way. If you once fixed throw-ins eg. how is it possible that in the next version of the game it can all be messed up again? Same goes for injuries, transfers and of course the whole ME. I understand the need to change something every year, but I know there are so many new options that you can put to make the game better, because I alone can give you at least 5 new ideas and propositions without even thinking too hard.

But don't mess with something if it works well, if the majority of the people in community agree that it's good. I also know that in FM and generally programming if you change something it affects other things so problems can appear, but I still can't get into my head how each and every year is so bugged with goalkeeper mistakes for example? If you sort out goalkeeper's behavior once, and you see little or no complaints, and you conclude THAT'S THAT, than have it like that for the next 5 years until the point where you revolutionize the ME completely. You claim you changed it this year, even though my eye can't see the graphical improvments, and as a matter of fact it's also having problems seeing the tiny white thing that's called a ball. If the engine of the game was completely changed, like the time when you first introduced 3D match, I bet you wouldn't get as much critics, because reasonable people would understand that you changed something completely and that it needs work and time to be good. But over the years the look of the match hasn't changed radically, but we still get the same bugs, the same idiotic defence movements, the unimaginable goalkepeer mistakes and many many more. People who buy the game just don't understand that.

I sadly have to conclude this is the Football Manager life that I'm living every year, and I'm sure many will agree with me on this:

1st phase - SEPTEMBER-OCTOBER- 3 months of waiting for a new manager. After summer holidays, the new season starts in August and I'm slowly starting to give up the previos version of FM, in expectation of the new game that has new transfers that occured during summer and brand new features that were announced by Miles Jacobson usually with phrases like "completely revamped scouting system/transfer system/media system,_________(fill in your own) system, 10 thousand new animations, 50 thousand new little things and whatnot. I know I shouldn't be too euphoric because I've been cheated before, but the long period of waiting for the new game and the old feelings and sparks I have in my soul for this game don't give me peace so I can't help but impatiantly and enthusiasticaly expect the new release. I'm always a bit bitter because the game doesn't come out earlier because it's logical to come out when the season starts not 2-3 months after it, after all SI would have a year to make the game in any case so it's a mistery why it has to be so late (maybe the employees' summer vacations?), but OK... If it will be good I'll wait, what else can I do...

2nd phase - NOVEMBER - The football season is already heated up in every country including my own (Serbia, where the first part finishes at the end of November) and after a lot of waiting and expectation FM finally comes out and I buy it the very first day. it's here I try to avoid forums so I don't see any comments about bugs and mistakes, because those comments can put a weight on my mind and I could "search" for bugs instead of just enjoying the game. Sadly, not a lot of time goes by before the bugs are shown to me very boldly because they affect the game too much that only a blind man would miss them. I try to enjoy the game, but unrealistic situations usually in the ME, happen to often and just don't let me be at peace and be satisfied. Then I visit the forums and read about the same problems that people have all over the world, and I conclude that I'm not imagining things and I wait for a new patch that now people from SI call an "update". Of course I stop playing the game because it's just unbearable and it insults my inteligence to play something that flawed.

3d phase- DECEMBER - The phase we're all in at the moment. The first patch has come out. It solved a couple of problems, but not the major ones. New problems occured in the process of solving the initial ones. I start a new season eagerly and finish the transfer period but things that happen on the pitch once again put me off and completely kill all the enthusiasm I had. The new patch is scheduled before Christmas and again I have to wait for it, while I'm not playing the game because I just can't bear to play something that has flaws that affect my team's performances and I can't do nothing about it. I feel vulnerable as a gamer, and as a manager, because FM is not an FPS, RPG or an RTS game were bugs can be unoticable and may not affect the game as a whole. FM is all about details, and in this state it just doesn't deliver the things everybody buys it for.

4th PHASE- JANUARY- MARCH- The patch has come out before Christmas and we all finally hope it has fixed things that we were annoyed about, but as it usually goes there are many bugs again that serious long-time FM player like myself can't overlook. The transfer period is already in progress and all over the Europe clubs are selling and buying, many renovating their teams completely. I play the game, even though I'm annoyed that I just took over my team that at the moment has a very different squad. I don't wanto to download any transfer updates from other websites, because another patch is scheduled for release in February which is very near. I also lose the desire to play FM, because I know it will soon be updated, all bugs should finally be fixed and the brand new transfers will be there as well, so why start a new season when I will have to do it over again in a matter of weeks? So again I wait... Usually the patch is late, it comes out at the end of February (maybe the winter holidays delay it?)- and people are impatient which reflects on the forums where they constantly ask, like over the whole year, WHEN IS THE PATCH COMING OUT?

5th phase- MARCH- JULY- This is the period when I play FM the most. I admit, the game is now more playable than before and I get my share of enjoyment, although usually playing against a friend because it adds the competitive factor that makes the game more interesting and it's also easier to whine when you have company, about bugs and strange things that happen which are of course not completely fixed, and I don't think they will ever be. If we are lucky we will get the acceptable version of the game at this point. If you thought, read and wrote too much about bugs and issues that were happening before there is a chance you will be too burdened by the past that you will continue looking for problems and see the past problems in a new version. Eg. last year the game was to easy which was admited by SI that was caused by bugs in player's morale being too superb and easily maintened. Later on, when the last patch came out, this burdened my mind because I was thinking morale is the most important thing in the game and how they tweaked it, and untill the very end the game still seemed too easy for me because of that wrong beginning and morale problems, I kept tripping about it all the time... It's hard to explain this to everyone, but I bet there are people who understand it. It's down to a personality, if someone has an easygoing mind he won't be bothered by many things that I mentioned, but I'm and FM fanatic & football fanatic so it's not easy to relax and enjoy after posting on the bugs forums, after discussing the game in depth with other users, after reading about hundreds of bugs etc. I bet many testers have the same barriere in their had, because FM is their job, it's their job to fix things, discuss it, go in depth... But I don't want it to be my job! I don't want to be on the forums, but I have to because SI solves many problems by listening to their community, and many times they don't consider the problems until a lot of people appear on here and post it. The fact that you always have smartasses who claim not to have that problem and scream DON'T CHANGE NOTHING SI, makes the thing even more complicated and worse. So the fact that we all have to be here and interract with SI for months to make the game good in February, doesn't help us later on to be relaxed and enjoy the end product. I would never be a tester because it would ruin the game for me. But unfortunately we all are testers in a way, we are guiney pigs from the demo, via beta version, up untill the game itself. And we should just be able to pay for the game, play it and enjoy it. Maybe there should be one patch made, and that's it. Alas...

6th phase- JULY- SEPTEMBER- The new transfers occured and major changes in the clubs all over the world, new young stars appear that were maybe not predicted to be as good in FM so they might have awful attributes in the game. You are still playing FM but the combination of changes in the teams and your own summer affairs (we also have a vacation;) maybe prevent you to play as much as before, you are a bit tired of everything. Soon there will be a new game, new promises, new REVAMPED, REDESIGNED and REVOLUTIONIZED features that will again make FM "the best game SI ever made!". No real competition in the genre definetely doesn't help SI's cockyness and gives me the feeling that many things are like this because SI knows they can do whatever they want, and people will still buy the game... Because real football manager and football fans will always be hooked to this game, even with all dissapointing things that they witness year after year. I hope SI will wake up one day, and stop hiding behind statistics that definetely do show that they have monopoly and high sales every year, but realize that they are not making the game only for themselves and their profits, but for the players who made them what they are today and have been playing the game for 5, 10, 15 years. If you are listening to community about bugs and such issues, listen to them about this as well.

Maybe no one will read this, and it will be lost in the sea of complaints here (I didn't want to open a new topic and give myself significance), but hopefully 1 FM player will read it and agree with me, either way I had to get these things of my chest and feel better, even though I could write about this for hours...

Have to agree with all things you mentioned. Every year I keep saying to myself that this is last time i have bought FM befor last patch...This is a really toxic relationship.

[Herbert Fandel]

I never understand this argument. Do you honestly think that managers only signed players that their own scouts have recommeded?

AS we have said, people have bought the game can play it how they like.

However I must respond to this

Although I would say that managers nearly only sign players their own scouts have recommended, I can see how in rare cases there is some leeway. For example, the lad pretending to be George Weah at Southampton. At the other extreme, isn't Bebe the only player Man Utd have ever signed that Fergie hasn't watched personally himself?

Furthermore, when you go on the internet, you often aren't just accessing people's recommendations. If someone says, I think player X is not bad in certain scenarios, then fair enough. On the internet people are often relying on 2 unrealistic scenarios:

1 - they have had the player at a certain level for X amount of years, and can confirm he is good enough. IRL Chelsea can't look at evidence of someone else having Oscar as a 30 year old to see how good he will get.

2 - A lot of people making their lists and recommendations have been using software (including the official editor) to see the PA of players, and can confirm if they are good signings or not. IRL managers never know a PA. Only some rough calculation of CA in relation to career time left in which to develop.

As such, the majority of internet recommendations are 'unrealistic' to use your context. If they rely on someone's in-game experience they are 'unrealistic', if they rely on pure conjecture then they aren't. IRL a player's career can only happen once.

Of course people are free to play the game how they wish, I am just trying to help you 'understand the argument'. Up to you if you accept it or not.

[nottmred1]

Take a look at my goal against Torquay. What is their keeper doing?! He appears to come for the cross and then suddenly goes in the other direction, leaving the net wide open for Purcell to slot the ball home

[video=youtube;bmSzJhKPBlk]

[Keyzer Soze]

Good for you if you can conclude everything from the demo. I can't because patches are tricky things that can improve a lot, and I think we've witnessed many times before situations where the game is very bad in the beginning but improves a lot at the end. Even if it doesn't improve, you lie to yourself that it maybe will, they lie to you every year because they patch it 5 times. By having patches they give you hope, sometimes false sometimes right, that it will get better, they don't have to say anything. And like hypnotized sheep that we are, FM and football fanatics we will buy it every time. So if I know, that I will buy it every time, I want to say what I have to say, even though my comments are probably not read, or taken lightly or whatever. I'll do that every year, until one day when I maybe lose my passion, if that day ever happens.

But when less addicted people ask me, mate how is FM should I buy it, I tell them don't waste your $ before March. Then call me, and I'll tell you how things stand with the end product. Everything before that is just a farce.

So, why did you buy the game? Why didn't you wait untill the final patch?

You say that every year its the same thing, you say that you dont agree with it, you say that the game will only be playable after the last patch... so why do you buy it so early?

Like every game that it's released, they come with bugs and issues that need to be fixed. In some years this bugs are more, in others years are less.

Like every game, the version after the latest patch is always the best one.

So you, and me, and everybody else, have two choices:

1) Buy the game at release day, knowing that it's not perfect, but be willing to embrace the experiment and the jorney... improving the game patch after patch

2) Wait until the final patch is released and then buy the game

Every path as some pros and cons, and i think theres is no right or wrong.

I, always buy the game when it's released, and usually really enjoy the struggle trying to find a good tactic for the new ME and all tha things. This year... i must confess i was getting too frustrated, so i decided to take a break and go back to FM2012 untill the next patch is released.

[Keyzer Soze]

Take a look at my goal against Torquay. What is their keeper doing?! He appears to come for the cross and then suddenly goes in the other direction, leaving the net wide open for Purcell to slot the ball home

Dont see any issues with this goal.

Nice cross into the box, the keeper make the move to get the ball not expecting that the foward could antecipate and reach to the ball.

Conclusion: A bad decision from the keeper, something that happens every day!

[nottmred1]

Dont see any issues with this goal.

Nice cross into the box, the keeper make the move to get the ball not expecting that the foward could antecipate and reach to the ball.

Conclusion: A bad decision from the keeper, something that happens every day!

He doesn't just make a bad decision. The keeper actually moves away from goal, leaving it wide open.

I could understand if the keeer changes his mind, as many do, and goes back towards his line but he goes across the six yard box, away from the goal.

[Keyzer Soze]

He doesn't just make a bad decision. The keeper actually moves away from goal, leaving it wide open.

I could understand if the keeer changes his mind, as many do, and goes back towards his line but he goes across the six yard box, away from the goal.

The resolution of the video could be misleading me, but what i am seeing is the keeper moving to the spot where he thinks he can intercept ball. The only problem is that the foward, making a good sliding movement intercepts the ball first.

[Casual]

So, why did you buy the game? Why didn't you wait untill the final patch?

You say that every year its the same thing, you say that you dont agree with it, you say that the game will only be playable after the last patch... so why do you buy it so early?

Like every game that it's released, they come with bugs and issues that need to be fixed. In some years this bugs are more, in others years are less.

Like every game, the version after the latest patch is always the best one.

So you, and me, and everybody else, have two choices:

1) Buy the game at release day, knowing that it's not perfect, but be willing to embrace the experiment and the jorney... improving the game patch after patch

2) Wait until the final patch is released and then buy the game

Every path as some pros and cons, and i think theres is no right or wrong.

I, always buy the game when it's released, and usually really enjoy the struggle trying to find a good tactic for the new ME and all tha things. This year... i must confess i was getting too frustrated, so i decided to take a break and go back to FM2012 untill the next patch is released.

Why do I buy it in the beginning? Because I was never known for my patiency, because I can't stand the thing that others are playing and I'm not, because I'm used to buying & playing the game every year, because I'm playing managerial games since 1997 and because I want to play the game as the real life season goes, not buy in the summer when it's over and when the new season is cooking up already.

You and a few others have a problem that you're too humble, and that you are too easily coming to terms with the game being messed up until March, like that's a normal thing. If it's like that, why don't they release it in March then? Isn't that a cheating of the customers, if you release the full game in November, but get the the real deal 5 months later? Why don't they put a big banner on the game cover saying, THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE GAME, WAIT FOR MARCH! I'm a customer and if I pay for a full game in November, I want it to be good and satisfy me RIGHT NOW. It's not about, I don't like this or that new option, it's about basic things like goalkepeer mistakes, defence mistakes, too many injuries, bad morale setting, tax problems, not being able to click on a match and view just stats but wait for loading the whole match....These are basic things my friend, and they are counted in hundreds every year.

Every game has a patch or two, but the bugs you see in other games don't necesseraly affect the game enjoyment directly like bugs in FM do. They make the game unplayable. That's why SI's responsibility must be bigger than it is right now. If they sorted out the most basic things that I mentioned if not before release than at least in a first month, everybody would be ok. Nobody would care that much about other little bugs that don't affect the game playability that much. Instead, they stretch the fixinig period to 6 months every year man, how can people not see how wrong that is to everyone who buy the game. And then later people from SI and high morale forum members literally spit on those who download it off torrents, like they are commiting crimes against humanity. Come on... I understand those people in a way, why would they bother to pay if SI isn't bothered to fix these things before they release the game and put a little more effort in it. Why would anyone pay for their produc, tell me?

I bet you, the majority of FM players who read my long post above, found themselves in many aspects and phases that I discussed, you know it and I know it, and SI know it. If you agree with it, and I know you do, coz you said you are back to FM 12, than don't ever be so humble and don't come to terms with the rubbish you're getting so easily. Speak up. Maybe you will be heard. Doubt it though, but what else can we do but complain and hope someone will maybe hear. Speak up, quit or be humble or shut up. Those are my options my friend, and I know which one I choose.

[nottmred1]

The resolution of the video could be misleading me, but what i am seeing is the keeper moving to the spot where he thinks he can intercept ball. The only problem is that the foward, making a good sliding movement intercepts the ball first.

But the ball is on the ground. If he wanted to intercept the ball, he would go towards it and not move in the opposite direction.

[Herbert Fandel]

. If it's like that, why don't they release it in March then? Isn't that a cheating of the customers, if you release the full game in November, but get the the real deal 5 months later? Why don't they put a big banner on the game cover saying, THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE GAME, WAIT FOR MARCH! I'm a customer and if I pay for a full game in November, I want it to be good and satisfy me RIGHT NOW.

Because I would rather play this version of FM13 now than no version of FM13 at all. Also, whilst it is true some users have gone back to FM12, there is a poll on this forum which suggests the majority of users are satisfied enough to keep playing fm13.

I don't think FM13 is perfect, but I would suffer more from it not being out than I do from it being out in its current state.

Also, the fact SI listen to the community severely harms your logic, yes they could spend more time running their own in-house tests and making their own improvements, and indeed a game harboured in house until march would be better than that we received on release day.

Many (but not all) of the issues with FM13 come down to opinion rather than fact. If they kept it in-house they would only have their own limited number of opinions, by releasing it they can alter the game to reflect the opinons of the masses. By releasing the game in Oct, and improvign it until march, they ensure that the game is better come March than the one worked on solely in house would be. This undermines your entire argument.

I am not completely enamoured with SI, I think the pre-release advertising bordered on being offensive given the game released, and they need to step up in many areas.

I just think your logic is.....illogical, or at least counter-productive

[Casual]

Because I would rather play this version of FM13 now than no version of FM13 at all. Also, whilst it is true some users have gone back to FM12, there is a poll on this forum which suggests the majority of users are satisfied enough to keep playing fm13.

I don't think FM13 is perfect, but I would suffer more from it not being out than I do from it being out in its current state.

Also, the fact SI listen to the community severely harms your logic, yes they could spend more time running their own in-house tests and making their own improvements, and indeed a game harboured in house until march would be better than that we received on release day.

Many (but not all) of the issues with FM13 come down to opinion rather than fact. If they kept it in-house they would only have their own limited number of opinions, by releasing it they can alter the game to reflect the opinons of the masses. By releasing the game in Oct, and improvign it until march, they ensure that the game is better come March than the one worked on solely in house would be. This undermines your entire argument.

I am not completely enamoured with SI, I think the pre-release advertising bordered on being offensive given the game released, and they need to step up in many areas.

I just think your logic is.....illogical

People buy a new FM not because it's better than the previous one, but because it's NEW. So the poll you're talking about shows nothing. The majority will always want to play the new game, with the new transfers, new features and stuff. It's flashy, it's brand new, and that's enough for everyone who is a fan to buy it. Sure you'll always have the people who'll play the previous version, you have people who play versions from 5 and 10 years ago, but the majority will always go for something new for multiple reasons.

FM testers weren't born in the SI cult as testers so they are blind to things the regular players see, they were passionate FM players before they became testers. I believe with enough testers you can make the game playable at least, and then have the community do the rest. Say FM is a cake. They should give the community a cake that only needs sprinkles, candles and cherry on the top to be finished, no more than that!! Instead we are given a bowl, cookies, cream and money to go out to the supermarket and find the rest of the ingredients without the list. After hours of finding the ingredients and making the cake, you have to do it again because it's not finished yet...the action causes reaction and something just keeps falling apart...and after all that you're just sick of the cake and everything so you go the other room and start playin PES

Your statement that the problems people have are down to opinions is just plain wrong, because forums every year are burning up with people's bugs that, oh what a coincidence, all resemble one another! So by saying this you are insulting everyone who has eyes and the ability to read that they are not alone in the problems they have, but there are dozens and dozens of people who almost in the same words describe the realistic issues (Ive mentioned them like 5 times) not something abstract that one man imagined.

At last, you make a comparison what is better, to have the full game in March or not have it at all. None of it is good. The only thing people want is a full game in October, November or whenever they decide it's the time. This is not utopia, this is very realistic and possible. FM is not the only sports game that comes out once a year, you have PES, FIFA, 2K12 series and whatnot and I don't see them releasing 5 patches a year, but I do see people loving and playing the game every year without being so fierce in criticism bcause there aren't such things in those games that make the game completely unplayable like FM has defacto been many times

[macca72]

It's posts like these that keep on encouraging them, year in, year out to release the game in such a state. I've won the league five seasons in the row, so it's not a question of me winning matches. The game just isn't fun to watch, and tactics mean nothing when 2 of your players get injured evry ****ing match.

And how do you work that out? I see my humour and attempt at lightening the mood was lost on you.

I agree that the game has issues (throw ins, keeper distribution, centreback positioning) but they've all been mentioned, and from looking at the bugs forum, all been captured and dare I say worked on for the next patch.

I'm in the camp of the game has some issues, but it won't stop me playing, otherwise I have really wasted my money. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about not winning matches, tactics or it being fun to watch, although with hindsight this thread probably wasn't the best place for a bit of fun.

[Keyzer Soze]

I bet you, the majority of FM players who read my long post above, found themselves in many aspects and phases that I discussed, you know it and I know it, and SI know it. If you agree with it, and I know you do, coz you said you are back to FM 12, than don't ever be so humble and don't come to terms with the rubbish you're getting so easily. Speak up. Maybe you will be heard. Doubt it though, but what else can we do but complain and hope someone will maybe hear. Speak up, quit or be humble or shut up. Those are my options my friend, and I know which one I choose.

I agree with some of the points you said in your early post. As i said, i'm playing FM2012 again, so i think this says everything about my feeling about FM2013. What i dont agree with, or anyone that might say that, is that SI is cheating me and the consumers.

They are releasing a product, that they let me test it before i buy (demo). Was i forced to buy the game? No! I choose to buy the game, knowing how it was.

Call me humble, or easy, or whatever, but the truth is, i really think SI try a enormous effort every year to release the best game they can.

Take the ME for example. Last year ME was a good ME. They could decide..."hey, that's a good ME, lets just sit by the palm tree and dont change anything untill 10 years". But no, they are always trying to improve and giving the fans the best game possible... and lets face it... they dont even have a competition to care about. No other game threatening there leading position.

And the game is not unplayable. The game have bugs, some more important then others, but none important to the point that we say..."i can not play the game". i'm not playing the game because it is unplayable. I'n not playing the game because, at this moment, and for me, FM2012 is better. Simple as that. Many people still prefer to play FM2010 and does that mean that FM2011, 12 and 13 are unplayable? No! It's a matter of likes.

[mooty]

I sadly have to conclude this is the Football Manager life that I'm living every year, and I'm sure many will agree with me on this:

Thank you for writing this. I couldn't agree more. I hope others will realise these problems as well and stop buying the game, so SI has to change it's policy.

Maybe they should start with changing the UI every year. 95% of the 'hundreds of features' announced are things like moving the Continue button from top to bottom etc. Concentrate on the ME and once it's fixed leave it that way.

[Welshace]

comparing the coding for a game like FM to Fifa and the like is ridiculous.. it just doesn't compare I'm afraid.

I would suggest people start comparing FM to an OS, in relation to the complexity and amount of coding that goes into the game..

Take windows... how many years have they developed it? how many iterations have come and gone without major bugs upon release?

[milnerpoint]

Its also worth noting that a lot of these games do get patches, as do most big games, Call of Duty, Halo, Skyrim, and almost every single big game gets patched, some quicker than others.

[mooty]

comparing the coding for a game like FM to Fifa and the like is ridiculous..

I agree, though compared to FIFA even Solitaire is complex.

Take windows... how many years have they developed it? how many iterations have come and gone without major bugs upon release?

The big difference is that Microsoft at least bothered to patch the bugs. SI set a patching strategy BEFORE releasing the game. Why can't they release a patch when it's necessary? If it takes 10 patches to have an enjoyable game, so be it.

[Chris21]

I'd just like to watch a game on the ME where my defenders aren't scoring OG's or leaving the opposition strikers completely unmarked all the time. The defending is so bad I've tried 5 or 6 different games which a variety of teams now and no matter how I set up I concede an absolute bucket load of goals. Score for fun mind you which is great but everytime the opposition attack they score pretty much. Best success I've had so far is with a diamond formation which was fairly solid but that's about it.

You just know the next patch will sort the defending out but you won't be able to score.

[themadsheep2001]

I agree, though compared to FIFA even Solitaire is complex.

The big difference is that Microsoft at least bothered to patch the bugs. SI set a patching strategy BEFORE releasing the game. Why can't they release a patch when it's necessary? If it takes 10 patches to have an enjoyable game, so be it.

Si do patch the bugs, or what would you call the patches already released?

[Herbert Fandel]

The big difference is that Microsoft at least bothered to patch the bugs. SI set a patching strategy BEFORE releasing the game. Why can't they release a patch when it's necessary? If it takes 10 patches to have an enjoyable game, so be it.

Whit? We already have had impropmtu patches

[mooty]

Si do patch the bugs, or what would you call the patches already released?

Yes, and there will be another patch before Christmas and one in February. That's it. Any bugs after that (and there will be, as always) will stay in the game till FM 14. Right now they are collecting bugs to fix in one patch. Why not release many small patches? With Steam it doesn't take a minute.

[Herbert Fandel]

Yes, and there will be another patch before Christmas and one in February. That's it. Any bugs after that (and there will be, as always) will stay in the game till FM 14. Right now they are collecting bugs to fix in one patch. Why not release many small patches? With Steam it doesn't take a minute.

You are trolling right?

[mooty]

You are trolling right?

No. I seriously don't understand why we have to wait weeks to patch small things like the low number of shots, or the own goals, or the injuries.

[fmFutbolManager]

No. I seriously don't understand why we have to wait weeks to patch small things like the low number of shots, or the own goals, or the injuries.

It's more economical to release one patch than several small ones. Plus, slightly tweaking the number of shots will have knock on effects elsewhere in the ME. It's not just a case of a simple tweak and release.

[themadsheep2001]

No. I seriously don't understand why we have to wait weeks to patch small things like the low number of shots, or the own goals, or the injuries.

Because they are not small things? Fixes are not standalone, every tweak has a knock on effect so it has to be balanced and tested.

[Herbert Fandel]

No. I seriously don't understand why we have to wait weeks to patch small things like the low number of shots, or the own goals, or the injuries.

We have already had a number of impromptu patches, hasn't there been 3 or 4 patches already? So your base information is simply wrong

There is not a patching strategy, for the game, only for the DB if anything.

ME patches can and will be brought out at any time deemed necessary. It isnt the case that they can just go into a basic setting list, find the settings for 'own goals' and turn it down a bit. All changes have to be considered with how the will affect every other part of the ME, and the delay in release will reflect this testing. Ever seen the episode of the Simpsons where Homer goes back in time and kills a mosquito?

It will be out when ready, and not following any schedule, as proven by practice to date.

EDIT - Given that there were normal OGs in previous builds, and a large amount of slide tackle OGs in the present one, I would suggest recent patches have been too hasty, rather than too slow!

[mooty]

Plus, slightly tweaking the number of shots will have knock on effects elsewhere in the ME. It's not just a case of a simple tweak and release.

Yes I know it's not that easy, but still it takes so much time...

It's more economical to release one patch than several small ones.

Could you explain that?