The 2012-2013 Manchester United Thread: Thank you, Sir Alex

[metal_guitarist]

Linesmen really don't like us tonight

[Andrew_]

Little Pea is back

[metal_guitarist]

That's more like it, Hernandez has been superb. Great cross from Cleverley

[ddidiodion]

That will do, reverse jinx on Cleverley as well.

[ham_aka_stam]

Is Hernandez about to cry?

[metal_guitarist]

Rode our luck but I think we deserved it in the end

[ddidiodion]

It's a great script lads but come on, this whole thing is getting out of hand ...

[Pangaea]

So we got out from jail again. Nobody can question our discipline and mettle. But we can't keep going behind in 3 out of 4 matches (or something wicked like that) if we want to win any trophies this season.

Looks good in the CL now though, almost through already with 1-1 in the other match.

[7Bestie7]

This season is going to be an absolutely insane one again.

[RSB]

Buttner getting stick? Was marginally at fault for the first but not done much else wrong .

At fault for both goals, was a bit shaky defensively in general. Good going forward for the most part.

Cleverley has been crap today, really annoying on the ball. Another goal from a corner, now watch us concede again .

Crap Not his usual high standards but the good far outweighed the bad. 94% of 78 passes completed and our top tackler again (with 5), fwiw.

Good to see Hernandez performing on his big chance tonight. Been good whenever he's had a chance this season and I never bought the popular idea that he was suddenly not good enough for us after one mixed season. Still not convinced by the system switch in the second half - Nani for Kagawa was an improvement but I think we lost a lot from the movement offered by RvP and Rooney in the first half, which was excellent. Seemed a bit staid at times in the second half. Thought Evans was excellent tonight also - hope this scoring streak continues!

[scott MUFC]

and the bonus of Chelsea losing

Nani was doing the right things, was a bit less selfish tonight.

Hernandez needs to start more, and I hope he does, seems a few players wanted to impress in that second half, plenty of tracking back and hard work.

[ddidiodion]

At fault for both goals, was a bit shaky defensively in general. Good going forward for the most part.

Nha, he's not at fault for the second one, Evans' responsibility to pick him up there, Buttner needs to be watching for people attacking the back post.

Crap Not his usual high standards but the good far outweighed the bad. 94% of 78 passes completed and our top tackler again (with 5), fwiw.

Lot's of it was being slow on the ball and getting caught and having to give it backwards, he was especially bad in tight areas and on the counter where he's usually very good, he also looked utterly knackered by the end.

[Leppard]

Seriously need to sort out your defending. Someone great at attacking, like Chelsea, could rape it.

[RSB]

Nha, he's not at fault for the second one, Evans' responsibility to pick him up there, Buttner needs to be watching for people attacking the back post.

Like who? There's no Braga player on his side of the penalty spot after the right winger has ran around Buttner to score, and he ends up right up Evans' arse anyway. Evans has to take the near post to block the crossing angles as Carrick has followed his man to the flanks. There's a Braga player arriving late but Rafael is marking him and is goal side. I mean, he's only a young guy with a handful of appearances and looks to be markedly better going forward than backward, so it's no massive deal, but it's his error.

Lot's of it was being slow on the ball and getting caught and having to give it backwards, he was especially bad in tight areas and on the counter where he's usually very good, he also looked utterly knackered by the end.

Did get caught a few times yeah, but the rest I can't agree with. Was involved in some of our best short, quick interplay in the first half and played a few intelligent early balls on the few occasions we had the opportunity to counter. Doesn't always come off of course, particularly when you're trying to force it against a packed defence, but it didn't seem a particular issue. Think he was limited too from Kagawa having an off night in the first half and then having to do the box-to-box role in the second. The latter may be why you saw him as looking knackered (didn't notice it myself) - only RvP (by 1m ) and Micael covered more ground. A world away from 'crap' either way

Was nice to see Fletch come through his first 'proper' game unscathed too I thought.

[tomtuck01]

At fault for both goals, was a bit shaky defensively in general. Good going forward for the most part.

Carrick clearly more at fault for the second. The attacker who put in the cross should never have been able to get away from him as easily as he did.

and the bonus of Chelsea losing

Seriously, what the **** are you talking about?

[ddidiodion]

Like who? There's no Braga player on his side of the penalty spot after the right winger has ran around Buttner to score, and he ends up right up Evans' arse anyway. Evans has to take the near post to block the crossing angles as Carrick has followed his man to the flanks. There's a Braga player arriving late but Rafael is marking him and is goal side. I mean, he's only a young guy with a handful of appearances and looks to be markedly better going forward than backward, so it's no massive deal, but it's his error.

Fully reject all of that and quite frankly it's nonsense, it's Evans' man to pick up, he's the only guy with a hope in hell of getting on the end of the cross and Evans is the only man who is in the position to deal with him (because everyone else is where they should be) and he fails, it isn't the first time either. I'm not saying he's a good defender, I think he relies on speed far too much (and I don't think he was even that good going forward), but the second goal was all about Carrick's cruise liner turning circle and Evan's annoying habit of not picking up players on crosses.

Did get caught a few times yeah, but the rest I can't agree with. Was involved in some of our best short, quick interplay in the first half and played a few intelligent early balls on the few occasions we had the opportunity to counter. Doesn't always come off of course, particularly when you're trying to force it against a packed defence, but it didn't seem a particular issue. Think he was limited too from Kagawa having an off night in the first half and then having to do the box-to-box role in the second. The latter may be why you saw him as looking knackered (didn't notice it myself) - only RvP (by 1m ) and Micael covered more ground. A world away from 'crap' either way

Completely disagree with this as well. His passing wasn't expansive in any way shape or form and all our good play in the first half came through Rooney and RvP, he didn't try anything to come off because he was so slow with the ball by the time he knew what he wanted to do he was closed down and had to give it back to Fletcher. He was saved from being crap by the assist, and he always has that quality but for the first hour or so he was a 5 at best. Don't dispute the amount of running he did though, it was a good shift he put in. His first half performance in particular was indicative of the way the team as a whole played and him and Kagawa were largely responsible for it.

[ddidiodion]

Seriously, what the **** are you talking about?

Maybe he doesn't want Chelsea to progress because they look pretty formidable at the moment and the other teams look easier to get past or he's seeing it as a sign that their unbelievable run of form might be slacking off a bit? There are plenty of reasons to be happy Chelsea got beat, if nothing else just because it's Chelsea.

[Icelander83]

Dion so obtuse and opposed to everything and everyone Why can't we just get along dion? Is it a race thing?

[RSB]

Fully reject all of that and quite frankly it's nonsense, it's Evans' man to pick up, he's the only guy with a hope in hell of getting on the end of the cross and Evans is the only man who is in the position to deal with him (because everyone else is where they should be) and he fails, it isn't the first time either.

Nonsense That's rubbish. Buttner is marking him at the start of the move, loses him and ends up standing a couple of yards away from Evans - how exactly is this 'where he should be'? Evans holds his position around the near post area in lieu of Carrick being pulled out for the entirety of the move, just as he should be. Alan starts the move some 30 yards away from him iirc, utterly mental to suggest it was his man to pick up.

Just have to agree to disagree on Cleverley. Can't see how he can be considered crap beyond the assist, and he was head and shoulders above Kagawa last night.

[outlander]

RSB, you are talking complete rubbish here. Just watch the replay. There is at least one man arriving at the back post and if Buttner would've gone for the man who scored and the Braga player would've chipped the ball even with the accuracy of Evra's right foot that player would've had the easiest job to score. And then Buttner would've got loads and loads of stick. Carrick and Evans are to blame for that goal.

EDIT. Actually, there were even 2 players arriving at back post, one lost by midfielder(Kagawa?).

[ddidiodion]

Dion so obtuse and opposed to everything and everyone Why can't we just get along dion? Is it a race thing?

Taking the draft loss hard

[Bliss Seeker]

is there many better sights in football better than an angry header? Absolutely loved Hernandez's second goal, such a throwback to the days of Shearer and Ferdinand.

[Gizzy]

Taking the draft loss hard

How many of the Utd thread voted for you? we have to stick together

[Coldberg]

Hernandez was brilliant last night. It's taken two years but it looks like he's finally learnt how to time a run and stay onside.

Also feel the need to point out how much better we looked when we reverted to using width in the second half.

[Leppard]

So, seeing Fletcher started last night, I assume we'll see a midfield of Carrick, Cleverley, and perhaps Anderson (if Fergie goes for three in the middle)? Or is he more likely to Rooney behind the two strikers, with Carrick as holding mid, and Cleverley and Anderson between them?

[stotty1982]

not a united fan but a football fan. Understand why fergie plays this formation but it leaves your full backs too isolated and they arent good enough defenders to isolated like that.last night once nani came on last night you looked alot more solid defensively.

[RSB]

RSB, you are talking complete rubbish here. Just watch the replay. There is at least one man arriving at the back post and if Buttner would've gone for the man who scored and the Braga player would've chipped the ball even with the accuracy of Evra's right foot that player would've had the easiest job to score. And then Buttner would've got loads and loads of stick. Carrick and Evans are to blame for that goal.

EDIT. Actually, there were even 2 players arriving at back post, one lost by midfielder(Kagawa?).

(***** quality) screens of the point the cross was made,

and the point Alan strikes the ball

There's a player arriving in the middle of the box who is tightly marked by Rafael until the ball goes to Alan. Only at that point does the Braga player make for the back post in hope of a rebound, while Rafa goes towards the ball. There's an attacker arriving very late on the far side, but given the pace Eder's shifting at and the distance from goal of the far player he'd either be closed down or have to loft the cross, which would give Buttner time to adjust. Hardly 'two players arriving at the back post'. All of which doesn't change the fact that it was the responsibility of Kagawa or whoever to track him, not Buttner - any criticism would be unjustified (like this of Evans).

Carrick and Rafael are both tightly marking their men throughout the move (to Carrick's detriment, ultimately). Throughout the move, Evans is covering the near post area - without him there Eder can simply waltz towards goal and take a free shot, while if Evans was marking Alan on the left of our D (where Alan begins the move) then there'd be a monumental chasm at the heart of our defence. Buttner starts the move marking Alan, tracks him step for step until he's distracted by the action on the ball, at which point Alan spins away towards the near post, about 1.5 seconds before he strikes the ball. Not really sufficient time for a hand off imo. Buttner ends up closer to the near post than the far, so isn't even doing the job he's being made out to be doing His concentration lapsed momentarily and he lost his man, plain and simple.

So, seeing Fletcher started last night, I assume we'll see a midfield of Carrick, Cleverley, and perhaps Anderson (if Fergie goes for three in the middle)? Or is he more likely to Rooney behind the two strikers, with Carrick as holding mid, and Cleverley and Anderson between them?

Can't see Fergie going with Ando in a big game, will probably be Carrick, Cleverley and Scholes if he goes for some sort of three in the middle.

Still can't agree that we were any better with the wider formation in the second half. The best part of our play in the first half was through Rooney and RvP's movement, which was all but completely lost in the second half. Not like we looked any more secure defensively once Braga had something to play for in the last 15 minutes either.

[Coldberg]

I don't know how people can say the diamond suits us better. How many of our goals have come from crosses out wide this season so far?

[Pangaea]

I really like the analysis section on this Norwegian United supporters site. Didn't see the Braga match so not sure how representative it is, but it's pretty darn thorough so well worth reading. Google translate is ****, but it's better than nothing: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Funited.no%2Fnyheter%2Fnyheter%2Fderfor_startet_det_daarlig_mot_braga&act=url

Since it's been talked about above, I'll just quickly rehash about the goals. Agree or disagree.

It actually looks like the author (semi-)blames the first goal on Fletcher, since he didn't follow the run, which meant there was a free header, more or less. Don't think Buttner covers himself in glory though.

Second goal is a chain event too. Carrick is dragged wide, is rounded. Rafael doesn't cover the space behind him so the Braga player has a free run into the box. Evans is dragged too much forward, probably to try to cover the room Rafael should have fallen back to cover after Carrick is dragged wide. This left Buttner 1-on-1 with Alan, and he loses him. Evans is too late to recover the error(s) and Alan has a free shot on target in the box.

In conclusion, it's harsh to say both goals are down to Buttner, as both goals is a result of a chain event of mistakes. That is the worrying aspect ahead of free-flowing Chelsea and Arsenal matches. If we don't correct this poor defending, we'll ship goals, and it won't be easy to overturn those teams. Spurs was a warning here. We used to have the best defence in the league, but right now it's far from the case, even with our 'best' defenders.

The positive is that SAF and co have managed to make the right player and tactical changes at half-time (HT subs used to be extremely rare for SAF), which have meant we have overturned 6 of the 7 matches we have gone behind in. But this clearly can't keep up. We need to be on our toes from the first whistle. Maybe (hopefully) some of our problems are down to getting used to a new system. However, as much as I like the more diamond-shaped formation WHEN IT WORKS, a lot of our goals still come from wide areas. Three (or was it four?) of the Stoke goals came from wide areas, and all three against Braga. The jury is still out on how SAF will set us up for the remainder of the season, but maybe a mix would be best, where the left forward/'winger' keeps width there, and a proper winger keeps width on the right (Nani/Valencia). I like having three central-ish midfielders, however, and given our forward options, the more or less classical 4-4-2 probably isn't our best bet against the more modern formations that overcrowd the central space.

[Ricky Button]

How many of the Utd thread voted for you? we have to stick together

Time to do it for me, against a City fan of all people!

[Icelander83]

What on earth are you lot on about?

[Ricky Button]

What on earth are you lot on about?

If that's aimed at me, then the Draft pick war against Bootador!

[Icelander83]

Sort of figured there was a draft something or other from the mention of a draft, draft for what?

[Gizzy]

Sort of figured there was a draft something or other from the mention of a draft, draft for what?

Have you blanked the draft after losing out last time?

[Icelander83]

Ahh, that draft I only took a peek at OTF, not FF

[Andrew_]

I didn't look at the first post in the thread so no idea what i voted for but voted for Ricky

[Bren24]

Manchester United have announced that they have bought back the sponsorship rights to their training kit.

In 2010, United agreed a £40m deal with DHL, although the club's owners have decided to take the unusual step of buying out the company, as they believe they can acquire even greater revenue.

More recently, United - owned by American family Glazer - have set up a new sponsorship deal worth more than £500m with General Motors who are paying a world record sum to replace AON as shirt sponsors in 2014.

The Old Trafford club said in a statement on Thursday: "We have successfully negotiated an early buy-out of our training kit agreement with DHL effective 30 June, 2013.

"DHL will then continue as our global logistics sponsor.

"The significantly increased value of agreements concluded since entering into this agreement, such as our world record shirt sponsorship with General Motors, leads us to believe that there should be strategic opportunities to further optimise the value of these rights."

Money grabbing isn't even close!

[Icelander83]

Yes, how dare we increase our revenue? Scum of the earth

Quite frankly, if we can get paid by a jewellery company for the players advertising toe rings we should whore ourselves over that in every way possible. We need that money more than probably any other major club in the world

[Bren24]

I don't disagree, I just think that this abrnomal move could attract plenty of negative media attention.

[Icelander83]

That's the least of our concern tbf

[Bren24]

Anyway swiftly moving on, Chelsea at the weekend. If we turn up I think we'll win, although we've been a bit lacklustre in too many games so far this season, and none of the "killing off" Sir Alex spoke of earlier in the season. If we fail to turn up, we could quite easily get trounced.

I'd like to see: A sort-of 4-5-1

RVP

Nani, Kagawa/Rooney, Valencia

Scholes Carrick

Evra, Rio, Evans, Rafael

Big save Dave!

Not going to waste my time formatting that as you all know how it should look on the pitch.

Can't decide between Kagawa and Rooney, although I can't see them both starting. Suppose the fact the Rooney and RVP partnership has looked promising recently, he'll be the starter.

[Pangaea]

Kagawa apparently got a knock against Braga, so doubt he will start. He hasn't slotted into our system well either, or rather, we use him wrongly. Am sure RVP and Rooney will play though. They've scored and assisted for fun since they started to play together.

Tough choice tactically. We can go a bit defensive in a 4-5-1 ish formation, or we can try to take the game to them and exploit THEIR weak defence. The way our defence has acted lately, however, I'd gladly take 1 point right now.

[scott MUFC]

Kagawa has been playing fine, how has he not fitted in?

rather see some crosses and little pea heading in a few.

[Leppard]

I dunno, Kagawa hasn't looked amazingly good in the games he's played, and that might be down to him not being used properly, but if he wants to keep Rooney out of the side, he needs to be playing really really well because Rooney and RVP look great when they play together.

For the weekend, I can see:

DDG; Rafael, Rio, Evans, Evra; Carrick, Cleverley, Scholes, Rooney; RVP, Hernandez.

No wingers, Carrick holding with Cleverley and Scholes ahead of him. Only problem is that the midfield isn't very mobile. On the other hand, SAF seems to like this formation, and it gets the best out of Rooney. I wouldn't mind this, though:

DDG; Rafael, Rio, Evans, Evra; Carrick, Cleveley; Valenica, Rooney, Nani; RVP. Scholes can come on later to dictate the game.

More solid, and I like playing wingers.

[Icondacarver]

This is the one game where i will not be annoyed with SAF for avoiding width. We need to stop Chelsea dictating the middle as our backline is very fragile, i woiuld have Kagawa as far away from starting as possible.

DDG, Rafael, Rio, Evans, Evra, Carrick, Scholes/Anderson, Fletcher, Cleverley, Rooney, RVP.

If we leave out Scholes instead of Ando, we have decent mobility and a bench of players to come on later with the width to get us our crossed goals.

[ddidiodion]

I smell Giggs in central midfield, it's that time of year again.

[ham_aka_stam]

Kagawa's apparently out for 3-4 weeks with a knee injury.

[Leppard]

Can Fletcher play two games in a week? If yeah, then ideally, it'd be Carrick, Cleverley, and Fletcher behind Rooney.

[Icondacarver]

I smell Giggs in central midfield, it's that time of year again.

Do not let me hurt you

Just ruined my whole weekend with the simple fact that i know you are right. Where is a Kiss & Tell when you need one? He was in sparkling form during all that injunction malarky.

[JJ72]

Interesting article on the new diamond formation http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20087767

For what it's worth re team at weekend - I agree with the counter-attack argument. I'd go with

RVP

Cleverley Rooney Nani

Carrick Ando/Scholes

Evra Evans Rio Rafael

De Gea

I prefer Ando over Scholes in this type of tight game but don't think SAF will go with him - seems to be out of favour again despite good performances.

Also think SAF will choose Nani on the left and Valencia on the right for the more defensive side of Toni. Again, he doesn't seem to trust Cleverley in the bigger games yet although I thought he was outstanding midweek despite what was said about him earlier by some people...