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LAUREN's Arsenal Thread 2011/2012 - 125 Years of Greatness *sponsored by being BRILLIANT*

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ArsenalFan7

ArsenalFan7

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Well if you can name many better young goalkeepers I will be impressed, Woj is just 22, Krul is 2 years ahead of him. Woj makes a fair few mistakes but he's established himself as Arsenals number one and put in some game winning performances, that alone is impressive. There's obvious problems about him but we have a lot of time to strengthen those areas, he can be a great goalkeeper and I'd hope we'd stick by him.

It seems that this performance today seems to have made peoples opinions of Woj worsen.. (?)

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dfgrigg

dfgrigg

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Well if you can name many better young goalkeepers I will be impressed, Woj is just 22, Krul is 2 years ahead of him. Woj makes a fair few mistakes but he's established himself as Arsenals number one and put in some game winning performances, that alone is impressive. There's obvious problems about him but we have a lot of time to strengthen those areas, he can be a great goalkeeper and I'd hope we'd stick by him.

It seems that this performance today seems to have made peoples opinions of Woj worsen.. (?)

De Gea, ter Stegen, Courtois and Zieler spring to mind. Maybe Leno as well. And it's not just today, his form in the second half of last season wasn't great.

Still, I'm not at all suggesting we should replace him, just that he still needs a lot of work.

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football_master_94

football_master_94

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Well if you can name many better young goalkeepers I will be impressed, Woj is just 22, Krul is 2 years ahead of him. Woj makes a fair few mistakes but he's established himself as Arsenals number one and put in some game winning performances, that alone is impressive. There's obvious problems about him but we have a lot of time to strengthen those areas, he can be a great goalkeeper and I'd hope we'd stick by him.

It seems that this performance today seems to have made peoples opinions of Woj worsen.. (?)

Conversely, he's also put in many game losing performances (ie. screwed up the position you were in)
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ajw10

ajw10

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choking at FM94 here, I think he is obsessed with Arsenal.

Woj is a superior keeper to Fabianski. Lets get that one out of the way. Woj is also one of the best young keepers in Europe so lets clear that up too.

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football_master_94

football_master_94

Posted
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choking at FM94 here, I think he is obsessed with Arsenal.

Woj is a superior keeper to Fabianski. Lets get that one out of the way. Woj is also one of the best young keepers in Europe so lets clear that up too.

Did I say that Fabianski was superior to Woj? No.

I'm merely saying that he definitely isn't a 'top' keeper as it's being made here.

Also, Cech looked good tonight. I do hope Chelsea keep him :) :) :) etc etc
Yes, because Cech made two costly blunders for his side today :thup:
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chris79

chris79

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Woj is a superior keeper to Fabianski. Lets get that one out of the way. Woj is also one of the best young keepers in Europe so lets clear that up too.

No/Yes and Yes.

He is now in better form,has more confidence, but that is just because Fabian was not any chance by Wenger this season. Before Fabianski injury (go ahead and chechk the posts here) Fabianski was finally showing what he can do, saving us games, playing with confidence. The difference bewtween his style and Woj's style is that Fabian in not spectacular, he does the unnoticeable things very well (positioning, crosses, etc), while Szczesny is likely to make an incredible save that people will remember for a long time even if he made two mistakes in the same game.

Also, Szczesny is intelligent enough to know how to deal with media and how to deal with fans. he will attack Cashley rather than someone really deserving it. He will demonstrate how much he cares about Arsenal after a game. Jump at Henry,s' back after his goal etc. Of course everyone's free to believe his pure intentions.

Coming back to pure football. Arsebolg recently published stats placing woj at the bottom of Prem keepers table. If it was Fabian, the comments would have been 'get rid of him!!'. But it is the beloved Wojciech. It is the defenders' and midfielders' fault that his save ratio is so low. Surely. Just as is is Polish defenders fault that he rushed out of goal pointlessly for both the Greece goal and the penalty, just as he did against Spurs last season and Chelsea this season (for which he admitted on twitter he should have been sent off).

If the same mistakes, that mean red card+ penalty most of the time, are being repeated by him over and over again, why are you so forgiving?

And this:

Still, I'm not at all suggesting we should replace him, just that he still needs a lot of work.

So in every position we need a world calls player, we are not ready to accept Jenkinson or Ramsey to be still learning cause it costs us points, we wangt better than Per Mer or 'dead wood' Rosicky, but well, for a GK we make an exception, let him play here for 3 years so he can finally be ready to leave for Barcelona (what he openly admitted is his plan btw).

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chris79

chris79

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Woj was terrible. It doesnt mean anything.

It means a lot cause from Woj it is the same mistake over and over again. He is not learning, he improved his kicking a lot and his concentration a bit, but what he did today is one of his biggest problems and he isn't improving in this area at all.

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ajw10

ajw10

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No/Yes and Yes.

The difference bewtween his style and Woj's style is that Fabian in not spectacular, he does the unnoticeable things very well (positioning, crosses, etc), while Szczesny is likely to make an incredible save that people will remember for a long time even if he made two mistakes in the same game. .

You've just named Fabianski's main weakness as his strength. Fabianski is terrible coming for crosses. He isnt dominant in the air at all.

And Woj had a very good season last season. The stats showed and meant very little. He definitely won us more points than he lost.

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Suggy33

Suggy33

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Yes, because Cech made two costly blunders for his side today :thup:

Well he did let 2 shots slip through his fingers.

Admittedly, Woj was at fault for both, but only one was costly, surely? The player who got tackled by Woj potentially would have scored, cannot remember how wide he was driven but would have had an open goal. But he took the risk, bought him down and fortunately the "blunder" wasn't costly.

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chris79

chris79

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You've just named Fabianski's main weakness as his strength. Fabianski is terrible coming for crosses. He isnt dominant in the air at all.

Bollocks.

That's what media made him look like and fans picked it up. Just look back at the time he was a regular for Arsenal before the injury and you'll see no complaints about this area of his game.

The problem here is that Fabian (or a late Almunia) made one mistake and it was being presented as something horrible by the media. Szczesny gets away with anything he does cause he stays after an away game and initiates chants with the travelling fans. So cool, but WTF was he doing kung fu kicking Ashley Cole, coming out of goal twice today and so on? Why isn't it ever brought up in discussions about him, even if it is the SAME issue, the SAME mistake all the time? Oh, wait, it's because he jumped at Thierry's back after that Leeds goal (and Thierry was quick to get rid of him as he wanted to keep the moment to himself, but noone mentions it).

I am not saying we should start playing Fabianski now, he is over at the club and probably his top club career is over. I just say that at start of this season it wasn't an obvious decision to play Woj. I also say that we can surely do with a better GK, unless of course everyone here accepts that we are in a 3 year transition phase, so we can play people who will be readfy for top class football in that time, but are not now.

He is (or was before his career was wasted by Wenger not giving him a chance) a more balanced keeper, not one that fans tend to love, but overall he earns you more points than someone like Woj.

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ajw10

ajw10

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I dont think I have ever disagreed with anything more :D With my own eyes I have seen Fabianski lose us more games than he has won us and Woj win more games than he has lost us. I dont need anyone to tell me that Woj is a better keeper, I know this for myself. I dont need to see Woj chanting with the away fans to influence my thoughts on him. How patronising of you to assume that.

And more balanced keepers definitely dont win you more points. The Jens Lehmanns of this world win you more points than your Shay Givens.

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chris79

chris79

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With my own eyes I have seen Fabianski lose us more games than he has won us and Woj win more games than he has lost us.

Fabianski didn't have as many chances as Szczecsny had so it is not possible to compare.

The balanced GKs argument is questionable, statistic experts could have more to say on the matter. I prefer having a calm predictable GK (that is who I have at Slask Wroclaw in Marian Kelemen, we won the title this season and came 2nd last time in Polish league) who may not be able to miraculously stop that 1on1 but is also not going to lose my team a game by pointlessly rushing out of goal so bring down a striker in the area.

BUT the problem is it is another big game and Szczesny screws it up totally for his team and there is just one group of people who are not willing to accept his fault or admit he is not a world class keeper: Arsenal fans.

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chris79

chris79

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Don't be silly, Almunia never chanted with the fans.

Seriously, you think his behaviour in such situations, the fact he speaks English well, that his often posted things on Twitter that were exactly what die hard fans would have said (fe about A. Cole) has no influence on the opinion majority of fans have on him?

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ajw10

ajw10

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I prefer having a calm predictable GK (that is who I have at Slask Wroclaw in Marian Kelemen, we won the title this season and came 2nd last time in Polish league) who may not be able to miraculously stop that 1on1 but is also not going to lose my team a game by pointlessly rushing out of goal so bring down a striker in the area.

Dont you see? That goalkeeper is still losing his team games and points. Just in a more subtle way.

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chris79

chris79

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Is that one of our police dogs that are allegedly trained to attack opposing (especially English speaking) fans' testicles?

he kind fo misses his target by quite a lot, maybe needs some more training.

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ajw10

ajw10

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Do I really have to post loads of pics of De Gea cocking up?

In all seriousness, there isnt much between them as goalkeepers, De Gea is a touch more talented, especially with his feet, but Woj is a lot stronger.

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dfgrigg

dfgrigg

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And this:
Still, I'm not at all suggesting we should replace him, just that he still needs a lot of work.

So in every position we need a world calls player, we are not ready to accept Jenkinson or Ramsey to be still learning cause it costs us points, we wangt better than Per Mer or 'dead wood' Rosicky, but well, for a GK we make an exception, let him play here for 3 years so he can finally be ready to leave for Barcelona (what he openly admitted is his plan btw).

Eh? Firstly, we're never going to have 11 world class players, unless the definition is really stretched; secondly, I don't remember ever complaining about Jenkinson; thirdly, I was one of the most vociferous in arguing Ramsey should stay at the club. As for the Barcelona comment, by that argument there's no point ever bothering to develop a player.

Fab may well be a better goalkeeper than Szcz. Certainly in training everyone says he's a worldbeater. But I feel that the series of mistakes he made at the start of his career with us have tarnished him so much that he'll never be able to recover at Arsenal. A lot of it is about perception, but that's a reality of the modern game. I really hope he does well somewhere else.

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chris79

chris79

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Well, the general feeling among our fans is that we are sick of watching young players develop, learn through mistakes in the first team as it costs us points and if they turn to be good players they leave for Baca or Man City.

Suddenly, you are ready to accept having a player in the most vulnerable position that you say still 'needs a lot of work'. So we don't tolerate Jenkinson or Coquelin deputising at RB (it is a proof of club's poor transfer market behaviour) but we are happy that our best and first choice GK is still learning his trade and not really ready for big games. Strange, really.

What I am saying all the time is that there is one exception from any rules and any complaints Arsenal fans make. And that is Wojciech 'I know what to do to make you think I am a die-hard Arsenal fan even though I only care about my money and career' Szczesny.

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ajw10

ajw10

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I love how Woj's club and national manager, pundits, the fans and his peers have all been taken in by Woj's charm, but good old Chris79 on OTF can see the real him. I cannot believe that all this time he's been getting good reviews and getting picked regularly because he hates Cole and sings with the fans.

This sudden surge of dislike for Woj wouldnt be because of the game tonight would it?

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chris79

chris79

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This sudden surge of dislike for Woj wouldnt be because of the game tonight would it?

If you aim this one at me, then you're wrong. IIRC I was even asked if he slept with my GF so 'I hate him so much' (or was it about Ramsey?). I just came here to know the answers from the Arsenal fans here - if they are still sure he is the way to go even if he keeps on losing his team games (and in this case tournaments) by making the same mistakes all the time.

I can assure you that a lot of people in Poland have a bit different opinion on him than you, and as reading this forum showed me it is also a case with fans of other clubs than Arsenal. So it is not only me, but it is only me who posts about it in this thread.

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chris79

chris79

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Arshavin was a bit good tonight!

Playing much more of a free role than for us.

This has been discussed here, Wenger never really gave him a chance in this position. But maybe he was right as AA is not so disciplined tactically as it is required in our formation and in the Prem.

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Henry_14

Henry_14

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if they are still sure he is the way to go even if he keeps on losing his team games (and in this case tournaments) by making the same mistakes all the time.

Im sorry are you implying Poland now wont win the Euros because of that mistake? :D

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dfgrigg

dfgrigg

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Well, the general feeling among our fans is that we are sick of watching young players develop, learn through mistakes in the first team as it costs us points and if they turn to be good players they leave for Baca or Man City.

Suddenly, you are ready to accept having a player in the most vulnerable position that you say still 'needs a lot of work'. So we don't tolerate Jenkinson or Coquelin deputising at RB (it is a proof of club's poor transfer market behaviour) but we are happy that our best and first choice GK is still learning his trade and not really ready for big games. Strange, really.

What I am saying all the time is that there is one exception from any rules and any complaints Arsenal fans make. And that is Wojciech 'I know what to do to make you think I am a die-hard Arsenal fan even though I only care about my money and career' Szczesny.

Personally I have no problem with us developing players. My issue with our squad composition is that our senior players are sometimes not good enough, and (especially) that we keep players who haven't developed as expected for too long.

If Woj doesn't seem to be correcting his mistakes, then drop him.

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chris79

chris79

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Im sorry are you implying Poland now wont win the Euros because of that mistake? :D

Firstly, it is mistakes, not a mistake.

Secondly, for my opinions on Poland's' chances - read the Euro forum, and I think they are generally similar to what football fans here think. Noone sane would say we had any chance of winning it, but being almost sure of not qualifying from the group after the first game is a lose. Does Szczesny have anything to do with it? Probably not, as he never loses you games and even when he does, he wins you many more to compensate.

Finally, being at home in the opening game of a big tournament and 1-1 with the opposition being down to 10 men that is a real test of character and skill of any player. Tell me how you think Szczesny passed it. And how it influence Poland's chances of progressing from that group.

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Henry_14

Henry_14

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Firstly, it is mistakes, not a mistake.

Secondly, for my opinions on Poland's' chances - read the Euro forum, and I think they are generally similar to what football fans here think. Noone sane would say we had any chance of winning it, but being almost sure of not qualifying from the group after the first game is a lose. Does Szczesny have anything to do with it? Probably not, as he never loses you games and even when he does, he wins you many more to compensate.

Finally, being at home in the opening game of a big tournament and 1-1 with the opposition being down to 10 men that is a real test of character and skill of any player. Tell me how you think Szczesny passed it. And how it influence Poland's chances of progressing from that group.

I don't class the sending off as a mistake, he had no choice but to come out and try and do something, the other option would be the greek bloke knocks the ball round him and scores meaning you loose or woj stays on his line and gives himself no chance of stopping it and you loose. In a twisted sort of way bringing him down was the only way you weren't going to loose.

I must admit I didn't see the entire game but if you cant score more than once against that defence then you don't deserve to win, and what was your defence doing letting the bloke through so easily? Very easy to blame Woj for everything.

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Sy13

Sy13

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The first goal was a mistake by Woj but the penalty in a way made him a hero. If he doesn't do anything the striker scores, it was a chance of probability and he won.

Completely disagree. If Woj makes no contact then one of the 2 defenders would have cleared. The attacker had pushed it too far ahead and away from goal.

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dan_simmonds

dan_simmonds

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Woj is not a world class GK. Yet. He has some real potential, but what no-one seems to remember, is this was his FIRST full season at senior level with Arsenal as the number 1. Of course he's going to make mistakes, he's still young and he is learning. But to get on his back for bringing a striker down who looked certain to score is a joke.

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SJ234

SJ234

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Using save's ratio as part of your argument against Woj is like building an argument on pass completion on cms.

He makes mistakes, just like De Gea, he isn't very experienced he has a lot of potential and could become one of the top keepers in the world. We do need a decent second choice keeper to push him on.

It has to be remembered that Arshavin had much more space last night as Russia were playing on the break something we rarely do.

Chris seems to be almost blind to the abilities of Woj, though lots of people are when it comes to certain players.

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