Why are you forced to take on rubbish youth players?

[Sheva Elite]

Look at Man Utd's youth/reserve teams from say the last 10 years. It has produced the highest number of Premier League players IIRC and quite a few Championship and below players. All released or sold because the were deemed not good enough for Man Utd or maybe even for the Premier League. Now look at them. When they were released, the clubs coaches/scouts may have thought they wouldnt have been good enough even for a lower Premier League team but you have somebody like Shawcross who is now being touted for a move to Arsenal and maybe even back to United.

Very good point. EXCEPT, on FM we know from the second they turn up what their potentail is. Someone like Shawcross would have a decent one, and I wouldnt sell him. THe ones I want to get rid of are the ones with less than 2 stars who are completely useless and always will be.

As x42bn6 said, you shouldnt know 100% how a player will turn out without using an editor of some kind. The fact that you say you never get players good enough every year tells me you use Genie or FMRTE to check them when they arrive and immediately disregard them because you already know how good they will be. Maybe your players only get 2 stars for potential but if your a top team with top players, you will be lucky to get more than that. The stars indicate his potential level compared to the best player at the club in that position. So if a striker comes through with 2 star potential and the coach says that they dont have the potential to be as good as Rooney, are you really surprised by that? How many would be? What you need to look at is where it says, 'could be a good premier league player' or 'a top Championship player'. You might look at a new player in an editor and see a PA of 125. Believe it or not that is probably a good Championship player given his attributes are spread in the right places for his position. All these are worth keeping hold of and investing a bit of time in. When they reach an age to be loaned out, loan them out and have their wages paid in full. Then its no cost to you and your player is being developed for free. Their rep will rise and when they return, hopefully you will be able to sell them for a decent fee. Even if you sell 10 'crap' players for between £500k and £1m each and buy one player for your first team worth £7.5m, is it not worth it?

I know how the star rating works thank you very much, and I dont use an editor.

Only 4 players in my youth team have any sort of ability. I've seen it on all the old ones too. After I release them, they all nearly always retire from football. I'm only interested in the top players. Example, I just sold Jack Wilshere at 21 to Everton for £1m. Probably sounds like madness to you, But he is never going to get into my first team and I can pick up younger players than him who are better. Get rid. I can always pick up the latest South American regen. Dont need to be messing about with rubbish like Wilshere. Ramsey would be off too if anyone would pay his wages.

[Sheva Elite]

For those of you in this thread who think their clubs are producing too many "crap" youngsters and too few players good enough to make your team, could you please list the team you are playing with and the kind of PA you are expecting of your newgens ? I could then maybe have a look and see how your expectations compare to some newgen data pulled from the game.

I'm using Arsenal. I'm not 'expecting' anything. I've always relied on nicking regens off other clubs. That's my whole point. I might as well get rid of 90% of my own youth recruitment as most of them are awful and even the best ones are average.

What I would expect is, probably all of them to have quite high potentials but maybe loads of them also have very low determination or very very inury prone so they never make it. Thats how it is more like IRL. A lot of players do have the talent to go far. Its more of a mental thing that determines how far they do actualyl go.

[x42bn6]

I'm using Arsenal. I'm not 'expecting' anything. I've always relied on nicking regens off other clubs. That's my whole point. I might as well get rid of 90% of my own youth recruitment as most of them are awful and even the best ones are average.

What I would expect is, probably all of them to have quite high potentials but maybe loads of them also have very low determination or very very inury prone so they never make it. Thats how it is more like IRL. A lot of players do have the talent to go far. Its more of a mental thing that determines how far they do actualyl go.

Disagree. Arsenal do not produce "loads" of talented youngsters in relation to the entire intake. If anything, they produce lots of average youngsters with (generally) good attitudes and technique.

If you are suggesting Arsenal youngsters should have high potentials across the board with personality flaws, then you are suggesting that anyone can polish an Arsenal youngster by tutoring and produce a world-class youngster. This isn't the case at Barcelona, let alone Arsenal.

[dddddd]

I agree this is SURELY a bug. I'm managing Derby and we're Euro champs with a worldwide rep and I've been managing them for 7 years. In that time my youth system hasn't produced a single player of any reasonable standard, and that's being generous - they're all appalling. Not one has ever reached a value of over £50k while at the club - how is that possible? They're just so bad. I always build from youth but I'm having to buy it all

[Scotty Walds]

I'm going to look at Man Utd's youth intake of 2011 on my game - 13 players. I'm now coming towards the end of season 2018/19, so these players should now have found their level:

3 have retired

1 is at Oldham in League 2, having been released by United, via Ebbsfleet in the Conference

1 is at Coventry in the Championship, having been released by United, via Wigan and Tottenham

1 is at Droylsden in the Conference, having joined after being released by United

1 is at Newcastle in the Championship, having been released by United, via Boston United (I signed him)

1 is at Telford in the Conference North, having been released by United

1 is at Tottenham in the Premier League, having been sold by United for £3m at the age of 19 to Coventry, then moved on to Rangers

1 is at Burton in League 2, having been released by United

1 is at Darlington in League 2, having been released by United

1 is at Portsmouth in League 2, having been released by United, via Stafford and Wrexham

1 is at Darlington in League 2, having been released by United, via Fleetwood, Chesterfield and Exeter

Most United youths have a Football League career, with the odd one returning back up to the Premier League. None are still with the club.

[lancer1]

I've played as Manchester United on FM since the 2008 version and usually my saves have gone about 5 years. The only regen I've gotten in that time that wasn't absolutely pathetic was a striker on FM09. I quit that save before he got past the age of 20, so i never got to saw him fully develop so I checked his PA just for fun. My coaches said he had the potential to be one of the best of his generation, guess what his PA was? 149! What the heck Man Utd have world class youth facilities and this is the best I've gotten in 4 different versions of FM. The only other half decent PA players I've gotten are wingers with something like a dribbling of 1 or pace of 3 when they appear The only good regens seem to be produced by random African teams.

[pelicanstuff]

I'm using Arsenal. I'm not 'expecting' anything. I've always relied on nicking regens off other clubs. That's my whole point. I might as well get rid of 90% of my own youth recruitment as most of them are awful and even the best ones are average.

What I would expect is, probably all of them to have quite high potentials but maybe loads of them also have very low determination or very very inury prone so they never make it. Thats how it is more like IRL. A lot of players do have the talent to go far. Its more of a mental thing that determines how far they do actualyl go.

Not at all. I did some research on this a while back and found that based on the real-life scholars of around 10 years ago, around 30-40% of Arsenal youngsters never manage to put together a proper professional career anywhere. Another 30-40% end up with a journeyman career that settles averaging around League 1 standard. These kind of stats cannot simply be explained by low determination or injury proneness. A lack of potential has to come into it somewhere.

[pelicanstuff]

I'm going to look at Man Utd's youth intake of 2011 on my game - 13 players. I'm now coming towards the end of season 2018/19, so these players should now have found their level:

3 have retired

1 is at Oldham in League 2, having been released by United, via Ebbsfleet in the Conference

1 is at Coventry in the Championship, having been released by United, via Wigan and Tottenham

1 is at Droylsden in the Conference, having joined after being released by United

1 is at Newcastle in the Championship, having been released by United, via Boston United (I signed him)

1 is at Telford in the Conference North, having been released by United

1 is at Tottenham in the Premier League, having been sold by United for £3m at the age of 19 to Coventry, then moved on to Rangers

1 is at Burton in League 2, having been released by United

1 is at Darlington in League 2, having been released by United

1 is at Portsmouth in League 2, having been released by United, via Stafford and Wrexham

1 is at Darlington in League 2, having been released by United, via Fleetwood, Chesterfield and Exeter

Most United youths have a Football League career, with the odd one returning back up to the Premier League. None are still with the club.

This seems to fit fairly closely with my research. It seems very accurate compared to real life.

[Riz Remes]

This seems to fit fairly closely with my research. It seems very accurate compared to real life.

I think that sums it up pretty well. It is quite hard for newgens in the early years to break into the first teams of the big clubs, so a lot of them do end up moving along just like in real life

Sheva Elite, your expectations just do not seem realistic at all. I'm sorry if you don't agree with our modelling of the newgen players but while this is a very subjective area and on the other hand there is a lot of reasonable arguments above on how it does still match real life quite well, we probably just have to agree to disgaree. But just because you don't like how something is modelled by the game, doesn't mean it is necessarily a bug

[Sheva Elite]

Disagree. Arsenal do not produce "loads" of talented youngsters in relation to the entire intake. If anything, they produce lots of average youngsters with (generally) good attitudes and technique.

If you are suggesting Arsenal youngsters should have high potentials across the board with personality flaws, then you are suggesting that anyone can polish an Arsenal youngster by tutoring and produce a world-class youngster. This isn't the case at Barcelona, let alone Arsenal.

Are you mental? Why have you quoted "loads" and then put talents youngsters? It is a fact that most of the kids in the Arsenal academy have potential. They wouldn't be there otherwise. Of course msot of them will go onto nothing. But no one can say which of them will and which wil be a success. For their age though, they are amongst the best around and amongst the more promising.

[Sheva Elite]

Not at all. I did some research on this a while back and found that based on the real-life scholars of around 10 years ago, around 30-40% of Arsenal youngsters never manage to put together a proper professional career anywhere. Another 30-40% end up with a journeyman career that settles averaging around League 1 standard. These kind of stats cannot simply be explained by low determination or injury proneness. A lack of potential has to come into it somewhere.

Well, when they were first came into the academy they were pretty much as good as anyone else. They didn't have a fixed potential. They turned out rubbish. But no one could have predicted that at the time or they wouldnt have been there.

They had a theoretical potential, but not a real one.

[Sheva Elite]

Sheva Elite, your expectations just do not seem realistic at all. I'm sorry if you don't agree with our modelling of the newgen players but while this is a very subjective area and on the other hand there is a lot of reasonable arguments above on how it does still match real life quite well, we probably just have to agree to disgaree. But just because you don't like how something is modelled by the game, doesn't mean it is necessarily a bug

You don't seem to even know what my expectations are...

This is a summary of my points:

We know much too well the potential of the players the second they enter the under 18s team. That is very unrealistic. Essentially, what I am saying is, the coaches/scouts are way too accurate. I like that they are accurate, and I wouldn't change this.

HOWEVER, seeing as they are so accurate, I would like the option to not even bother with the rubbish ones.

[Jord @S]

Well, when they were first came into the academy they were pretty much as good as anyone else. They didn't have a fixed potential. They turned out rubbish. But no one could have predicted that at the time or they wouldnt have been there.

They had a theoretical potential, but not a real one.

Yeah but not all of the players now will have come directly from the Arsenal academy, a prime example being Jack Wilshire, who was from the Luton academy before Arsenal found him at a very young age because they knew he hired great potential. Another example could be Matt Upson, again taken from Luton by Arsenal but obviously didn't turn out as good as Wilshire, but must've been signalled out by a scout saying that he was one of the better potentials and Curtis Davies is the opposite, maybe didn't look like he had the potential to make it in the youth team, staying at Luton til the mid twenties but now he's an alright player. Some players may look bad but be good or the other way round, saying to just leave all 'under 3 star players' is just not how it works irl, i think.

[lancer1]

You don't seem to even know what my expectations are...

This is a summary of my points:

We know much too well the potential of the players the second they enter the under 18s team. That is very unrealistic. Essentially, what I am saying is, the coaches/scouts are way too accurate. I like that they are accurate, and I wouldn't change this.

HOWEVER, seeing as they are so accurate, I would like the option to not even bother with the rubbish ones.

The coaches aren't accurate though. I got a player who had the potential to be one of the best in his generation, but his PA was only 149

[x42bn6]

Are you mental? Why have you quoted "loads" and then put talents youngsters? It is a fact that most of the kids in the Arsenal academy have potential. They wouldn't be there otherwise. Of course msot of them will go onto nothing. But no one can say which of them will and which wil be a success. For their age though, they are amongst the best around and amongst the more promising.

PA doesn't work like that. If a player has a high PA and reasonable attributes, he will likely go on to meet that PA. Not meeting that PA entails things like injuries and bad attitudes - something rarely seen in Arsenal players (Kerrea Gilbert is the only one I can think of right now).

So if the majority of Arsenal youngsters generally have good attitudes, but fail to become world-class, does it mean their PA should be high? No! Because they would meet their PA easily! It is simply that their PAs aren't high enough. And this fits in to the trend of youngsters - most fail to make it, the odd youngster makes the top tier, the very odd youngster makes the first team and a fair number never make it professionally.

[Brian Shanahan]

The coaches aren't accurate though. I got a player who had the potential to be one of the best in his generation, but his PA was only 149

Ever hear of Kevin Keegan? And still a PA of 149 is goin to get a player into the top echelons of the game 9 times out of 10 especially with the right training. Remember 149PA is a solid -8 score and just 2 points of a -9, which are both top top ratings.

[SCIAG]

Very good point. EXCEPT, on FM we know from the second they turn up what their potentail is.

There's the thing, we don't.

Once as Reading (by then a top Premier League club), I had two good youngsters come through after upgrading my youth facilities. One was an Icelandic WBL/AML picked up by my assistant as having the best potential he'd seen in a long time. He had 4 stars, and "could be better than Bozanic", my starting AML. Naturally, I tried to give him the best chances possible, and he did improve. However, coming up quietly behind him was a Scottish AML/ST. This player was initially rated with 2 stars by my 16/19 ass man. He did very well in the u18s, and a loan offer came in from League 1, Rochdale or someone. He did well there, and when he returned, he had 3 stars in potential! Meanwhile, my Icelandic player was stagnating, and went down to 2 and a half stars potential. I retrained him to DL, and he turned into a solid back up left back, though he was never a first teamer and I'd have got rid if he hadn't come through my academy (;cough: O'Shea :cough: ). The Scot? He ended up with 4 stars for CA, was my regular AML, Scotland's main striker, and even filled in as an AMC for me sometimes. When I later checked, he had 160-odd PA. The Icelander had 140-odd PA- and had practically met it, so it wasn't as if determination or lack of playing time was the issue!

So coaches can be wrong about PA, and this was one such time.

[Sheva Elite]

What about Coaches with 20/20?

They always seem to be very accurate with regard to people I know the PA of. Like Paulo Henrique and that. They never get them wrong, and they only differ in half stars max if they do.

Admitettedly though, I have found one example already of my scouts making huge mistakes. There's this player who was on my radar at about 3 stars PA. He looked OK but I didn't think he looked too brilliant so I didn't try too hard.. Barcelona bought him and he has improved a bit. I scouted him now and he has gone up to 4.5 star potential! And he is already very very good with 3 star CA. He'll be best on the game when he gets to his potential but they wont even accept £40m now

[LFCMatt7]

I can just imagine the OP's youth team consisting of only 3 or 4 youth players who are considered to have good enough potential, plenty of potential for a 1v1 game or at best a 2v2 game, what a great idea

[Brian Shanahan]

@SCIAG do not denigrate O'Shea, he's the only man ever to go a whole season with a perfect shots to goals ration, even if he did score with his bum. You can't blame a man for being born in Waterford.

[bearsy2]

For those of you in this thread who think their clubs are producing too many "crap" youngsters and too few players good enough to make your team, could you please list the team you are playing with and the kind of PA you are expecting of your newgens ? I could then maybe have a look and see how your expectations compare to some newgen data pulled from the game.

Can I just ask are the newgens created, be it -9, -7 etc etc, linked to reputation? I mean are Man U likely to get more -9's than say Newcastle or Villa? I would hope that it was linked more to Academy standard than club reputation.

[pelicanstuff]

Can I just ask are the newgens created, be it -9, -7 etc etc, linked to reputation? I mean are Man U likely to get more -9's than say Newcastle or Villa? I would hope that it was linked more to Academy standard than club reputation.

I think both have an effect as bigger clubs will readily attract the talented youngsters to try and play for them.

[Lazaru5]

Even coaches with 20/20 can get it wrong, nobody is infallible in RL and neither are the staff in the game. I've had players come through the youth system that have been 1 or 2 stars potential on intake that have left the club as 3 and 3.5 stars. I've also had players that were 4+ star potential that left and retired at the end of their deal because they'd flopped.

Every youth player of mine gets his own training schedule specifically tailored to 'get the best' out of them and there are those who make massive improvements and those who never seem to progress. I never 'write-off' any of my youth team until they've had a chance because there are some slow-growers that I might otherwise miss. Most of a top clubs youth team, with proper guidance, can become 'saleable' assets (it depends on how much you expect to make from them).

Even with all the care I take I can still miss the gems in my own youth - I once had a striker that had a 3.5 star potential on intake, but it didn't stay still, was up and down regularly. 1 week it would be 2.5, the week after 3.5 and the week after 4 and so on. I played him in the first team for a while, tutored him with my best strikers and eventually gave up on him at 22 with a 3 star CA and 3.5 PA and sold him to a relegation struggler for 3.5mill. 3 years later he was a regular starter in England's 1st team with a Worldwide reputation and a 25mill value!

I think the example of Scotty Wald's Man Utd youth intake is pretty accurate to what I've experienced for years on the game, not just FM11. If you think the youth are a let-down to the club then maybe it's you that's letting them down - just because they're not "Wonderkids" to a man.

[spankie]

I usually wait until the player turns 17 before deciding his fate, although a few times I had U18 players stack up a glut of red cards so they both went early.

I have a DC who was 2 and half star PA rated come through whilst in the BSP and he's currently on loan to a feeder club in a non-playable league, he is playing games and hopefully the game will let him benefit from that.

He's got 18 months on his contract and if he comes back at around 3 stars then I'll let him stay and see if I can get him out on loan next season in a playable league so I can get a coach to watch him.

[Laneo]

Am I the only sad sack who lists the name, position and nationality of every youngster who comes through the academy? Then, at the end of every transfer window, I search their names and record every club they play for.

Of course, I don't write teams they get loaned out to. After all, I'm not mental.

[SCIAG]

Can I just ask are the newgens created, be it -9, -7 etc etc, linked to reputation? I mean are Man U likely to get more -9's than say Newcastle or Villa? I would hope that it was linked more to Academy standard than club reputation.

I think both have an effect as bigger clubs will readily attract the talented youngsters to try and play for them.

Pelicanstuff was certainly correct for FM10 and earlier. I don't know about FM11 though, because we now have Youth Recruitment Networks, which could do the same job.

[MrPompey]

If you look at Sheva's posts in general you'll see a theme. If he just took the time to imagine how football is in real life, how its modelled in FM, how the game actually works I think he'd have a much better understanding of how to "play" FM and how to play something like Mario

[Sheva Elite]

I know better than 99% of people how to play FM. Let me assure of that. I've been about on it since 01-02 and management games in general since like 96.

[bigdanio]

Hello Sheva, I'm one of the 1% you are not better than.

Please, please stop with all this nonsense.

Ta.

[MrPompey]

I know better than 99% of people how to play FM. Let me assure of that. I've been about on it since 01-02 and management games in general since like 96.

quod erat demonstrandum

[ArsenalFan7]

Hello Sheva, I'm one of the 1% you are not better than.

Please, please stop with all this nonsense.

Ta.

:thup:

[StevoRobbo]

I know better than 99% of people how to play FM. Let me assure of that. I've been about on it since 01-02 and management games in general since like 96.

Yet you can't beat Fulham despite 'dominating' the game. I suppose the game has a conspiracy against you and it wasnt your fault

[lancer1]

Ever hear of Kevin Keegan? And still a PA of 149 is goin to get a player into the top echelons of the game 9 times out of 10 especially with the right training. Remember 149PA is a solid -8 score and just 2 points of a -9, which are both top top ratings.

149 is NOT a solid score for one of the top teams in the world. A backup player at best

[StevoRobbo]

149 is NOT a solid score for one of the top teams in the world. A backup player at best

I wish people would stop looking at the number and actually learn what it means

A defender with 149 CA can be a better defender than one with a 165 CA if the points are distributed to the right attributes!!!!

[edgar555]

I know better than 99% of people how to play FM. Let me assure of that. I've been about on it since 01-02 and management games in general since like 96.

So you've been playing since you were 7 yet still don't understand the basics.

One thing I really dislike is people claiming to be the best in the world at FM or that they know better than anyone what they are doing. In a game like this there is no ultimate prize other than that which you set yourself. Some people may be satisfied to take over a small club and struggle away, getting to League 1 could be their pinnacle, or it could be avoiding the sack, or winning everything. Your skill at this is very difficult to quantify. Unless this is just another Sheva 'fact'. Give it a rest 'Rafa'.

[edgar555]

I wish people would stop looking at the number and actually learn what it means

A defender with 149 CA can be a better defender than one with a 165 CA if the points are distributed to the right attributes!!!!

Stevo stop bringing sensible discussion to Sheva's threads.

[StevoRobbo]

Stevo stop bringing sensible discussion to Sheva's threads.

Ok my bad :o

[CaptainPlanet]

Simples, start an online game and put Sheva to the test

[MrPompey]

Listen I'm getting bored of these posts about facts and statistics, 83.85% of them are made up anyway...........

[Jord @S]

83.85% of them are made up anyway...........

are you sure about that

[Sheva Elite]

Yet you can't beat Fulham despite 'dominating' the game. I suppose the game has a conspiracy against you and it wasnt your fault

Of course not.

I could lose to Rotherham in any given game. THats the whole point.

Generally, I am great. But every now and then we lose/draw for no reason. People say the same old rubbish, but I do all I can to reduce complacency etc.

[Sheva Elite]

Yet you can't seem to score your CCC and you seem to think it's a bug when you don't win. Also I've been on football manager games since CM 01-02, that proves nothing. As a 7/8 year old I won back to back promotions in a day using the default formation and tactics, just buying my own players. A monkey could play that game it was so easy.

And when you said about people making up stats about CCC being missed and that there was no evidence, where is the evidence that you're better than 99% of people, or are you the one making the numbers up now?

*sigh*

He promoted his stat like he's actually researched it or something. My stat is obviously my opinion, (although it is also right)

[MrPompey]

Sheva - Why not publish the EPL table and a list of your achievements. This way we can understand your level of greatness

Ultimately people here genuinely want to help you but you do post sometimes with statements than can alienate you

[StevoRobbo]

Of course not.

I could lose to Rotherham in any given game. THats the whole point.

Generally, I am great. But every now and then we lose/draw for no reason. People say the same old rubbish, but I do all I can to reduce complacency etc.

Is that not the same for any of the big clubs. Generally great but now and again will play like a pub team and lose or completely batter a team and not win. It happens, you have acknowledged it happens, so why all the threads bitching when you lose?

[bigdanio]

I've never lost to the likes of Rotherham with a Premier League side.

And I've been playing football managing games longer than you Sheva. 96 was it? I was already on a roll then son.

[x42bn6]

Is that not the same for any of the big clubs. Generally great but now and again will play like a pub team and lose or completely batter a team and not win. It happens, you have acknowledged it happens, so why all the threads bitching when you lose?

Arsenal 2-3 West Brom (Arsenal battered West Brom too)

Middlesbrough 4-1 Manchester United (no idea how we played so bad here )

West Ham 4-0 Manchester United (we deserved to lose, but not 4-0)

Most of Chelsea's results this season

Spurs 3-1 Inter

Just some recent results that are mind-boggling and appeared out of nowhere for no reason.

[MrPompey]

Arsenal 2-3 West Brom (Arsenal battered West Brom too)

Middlesbrough 4-1 Manchester United (no idea how we played so bad here )

West Ham 4-0 Manchester United (we deserved to lose, but not 4-0)

Most of Chelsea's results this season

Spurs 3-1 Inter

Just some recent results that are mind-boggling and appeared out of nowhere for no reason.

Hw about the Newcastle v Sunderland game!!

[RBKalle]

Spurs 3-1 Inter

Just some recent results that are mind-boggling and appeared out of nowhere for no reason.

Just to play Devil's advocate...

If you didn't see that loss coming, you hadn't been paying attention to Inter's season To be honest I would have considered Inter winning 3-1 the bigger upset...

[x42bn6]

Just to play Devil's advocate...

If you didn't see that loss coming, you hadn't been paying attention to Inter's season To be honest I would have considered Inter winning 3-1 the bigger upset...

I don't think many expected Spurs to utterly dominate the game, or Rafa Benitez to totally forget that they had already played against Spurs and that, well, he might have to change his tactics?

For what it's worth, I was expecting an entertaining draw and Maicon to at least keep Bale quieter in the "second leg".

[bearsy2]

I think both have an effect as bigger clubs will readily attract the talented youngsters to try and play for them.

I would argue that the reason more 'talented' kids are snapped up by bigger clubs is due to the scouting networks being superior. However, I would hate to think that a team in the championship could not produce a star like Rooney. If a championship club had a good enough academy then there should be no limit on the quality of talent they produce. It should have nothing to do with reputation imho.