Trend of FM regens, Accurate proof, Well detailed.

[Pangaea]

SFraser, I'm playing the game so I have just as much reason to talk about the quality of regens as anybody else. And I see plenty of great players, some better than in the starting database.

If you want 18-20 across the board for all players (and hidden attributes) you'll need to do some editing yourself as you will never be happy with what the game, any game, produces.

[Alex100001]

They are, and the trend of terrible Pressure or Consistency in newgens is really starting to stick out like a sore thumb.

I have checked all the newgen screenshots in this thread, and where hidden traits can be seen 11 newgens out of 16 have either Pressure or Consistency at 10 or lower. This includes SCIAG's trend destroying FMRTE screenshots.

Personally I would consider 15 for both the "average" for a top level player, which would mean only SCIAG's newgens would qualify, but we don't seem to be accepting that standard of judgement.

It could just be luck of the draw, but it is something I mentioned early in the thread and have repeated regularly because it was a serious problem in my own save, and the newgens being produced here do seem to invariably suffer in these attributes.

Pressure is one of the most important attributes in teamtalks, man management, media interaction etc. perhaps even the single most important attribute when it comes to player interaction. Even ignoring the low Pressure scores, there does seem to be a clear trend to very deficient personalities and players very deficient when it comes to man management and interaction.

If this is true, if newgen personalities are deficient and this deficiency is widespread and inherant in the newgen system, it will have repercussions for how human players perceive Teamtalks and Man Management once newgens start becoming prevailent. What will happen is that most Teamtalk/Interaction strategies that worked at game start will no longer work when newgens make up the majority of players in the database. In effect, the game will change in the context of Man Management and Media Interaction.

Conversely it could point to a serious flaw in Mentoring, either the actual system of mentoring or how the AI mentors players, or indeed how the human player mentors players.

Exactly as human manager will learn how to adapt to the new wackier personalities, but AI wont. Would managers being generated also make the problem worse?

[BathPalace]

Using the same game as the example above (Dudu Cearense):

-There are 9601 regens.

-4588 (47.7%) have >10 pressure

-5133 (53.4%) have >10 consistency

-2600 (27%) regens have >10 pressure and >10 consistency.

-Using Gary Cahill's stats, there are 0 regens with hidden attributes better or equal to Gary Cahill

-For regens older than 25 (so we can assume they are mostly developed) 43% have >10 pressure, 58% have >10 consistency and 28% have >10 in both which would suggest that they don't develop much either.

That's only a small sample, admittedly, but I don't want to ruin my other games. Maybe sometime I'll simulate some seasons to try and map out these regens.

[SFraser]

If you want 18-20 across the board for all players (and hidden attributes) you'll need to do some editing yourself as you will never be happy with what the game, any game, produces.

I never said that did I?

What I said was that I want to see consistency between newgens and starting players so that youth development is a logical and engaging part of game. Youth development in football, specifically clubs like Manchester United for example, is far less about producing the next Pele and far more about stable basic infrastructure from producing useful squad players to indeed reducing costs and increasing income through generating profits by selling players to other clubs. Over the past few seasons Manchester United have developed and sold multiple players to Premier League clubs, easilly off-setting a significant proportion of transfer fees for players bought, while at the same time generating talent capable of covering positions on the field when cover is needed without necessarilly being quality players. Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal etc. all employ very similar models and derive their continuity and consistency as clubs from the development of players.

The problems with newgens is just one aspect of a whole series of hugely under-developed youth development processes in FM. The problem is not that newgens cannot be quality players in their own right, but that the newgen system produces players that are significantly different to players that exist at game start. Specifically when it comes to the balance of Mental Traits and key Personality/Mental attributes.

The generation and distribution of CA amongst playing attributes looks reasonably okay. There are some incredibly weird types of player regularly generated, like central midfield speed demons with little strength, technical or mental ability but rakes of pace and acceleration. Likewise there are a lot of Centrebacks generated with ludicrous levels for Jumping, Anticipation, and Decisions. However on the whole the distribution of CA into relevant positional attributes is acceptable.

The problem as I see it is the generation and distribution of non-CA attributes, Aggression/Bravery/Determination/Flair/Natural Fitness/Consistency/Important Matches/Injuryprone/Pressure/Sportsmanship/Professionalism etc.

These are attributes that function in such a way that you cannot simply input a CA value and have Position Attribute Weights distribute the CA accordingly. They simply have no mechanical system like Playing Attributes. They must be generated according to some other, custom designed and purposely built system, and that system would seem to produce attribute distributions of large strengths balanced by key deficiencies while a large proportion of starting, hand designed players are well rounded and balanced.

This as far I can see and understand what is going, is the flaw. No study was done of the database to match the newgen "Personality" attribute generation mechanics to the pattern of existing "Personality" attribute distribution. The newgen system might be theoretically logical, but in terms of consistency of game experience and player type it is practically inaccurate.

I don't imagine the fundamental problem would be hard to fix, though I could be wrong. I do think though that the issue needs to be brought to the attention of SI.

Using the same game as the example above (Dudu Cearense):

-There are 9601 regens.

-4588 (47.7%) have >10 pressure

-5133 (53.4%) have >10 consistency

-2600 (27%) regens have >10 pressure and >10 consistency.

-Using Gary Cahill's stats, there are 0 regens with hidden attributes better or equal to Gary Cahill

-For regens older than 25 (so we can assume they are mostly developed) 43% have >10 pressure, 58% have >10 consistency and 28% have >10 in both which would suggest that they don't develop much either.

That's only a small sample, admittedly, but I don't want to ruin my other games. Maybe sometime I'll simulate some seasons to try and map out these regens.

That is quite interesting. It could show that AI Mentoring of players may indeed compound the issue.

Exactly as human manager will learn how to adapt to the new wackier personalities, but AI wont. Would managers being generated also make the problem worse?

IF, and it is an IF, the AI generates inferior quality managers to what exists at game start, then there will be a period in the game where the quality of the gameworld declines dramatically in terms of individual character quality and in terms of compound gameplay effects. However this will even out and stabalise once all original characters in the database retire or become the minority group. However the human manager that has successfully negotiated his way through the starting period of the game should find the game become significantly easier due to compound AI flaws, while also being alot more erratic.

This issue could also go a long way to explaining the trends of clubs with a large proportion of older players and managers. They are most likely to fill up with newgen characters earlier, and experience the compound decline of quality earlier.

This is ofcourse hypothetical, there is no direct evidence of this yet, but the reasoning is sound and fits many observed trends.

[Brave_United]

Using the same game as the example above (Dudu Cearense):

-There are 9601 regens.

-4588 (47.7%) have >10 pressure

-5133 (53.4%) have >10 consistency

-2600 (27%) regens have >10 pressure and >10 consistency.

-Using Gary Cahill's stats, there are 0 regens with hidden attributes better or equal to Gary Cahill

-For regens older than 25 (so we can assume they are mostly developed) 43% have >10 pressure, 58% have >10 consistency and 28% have >10 in both which would suggest that they don't develop much either.

That's only a small sample, admittedly, but I don't want to ruin my other games. Maybe sometime I'll simulate some seasons to try and map out these regens.

Very interesting, I may generate a long-term game overnight and see whether the same thing occurs in my game. Amazing though. In 9601 regens not even 1 had the same mental stats as Gary Cahill? And people are somehow arguing that there's no flaw in the regen system?

[Brave_United]

Doing my own little study 4 years in the future I got similar results:

-There are 3884 regens

-1626 (41.9%) have >10 pressure

-1098 (28.3%) have >10 consistency

-476 (12.6%) regens have >10 pressure and >10 consistency.

-Using Gary Cahill's stats, there are also 0 regens with hidden attributes better or equal to Gary Cahill

Bear in mind I'm 4 seasons in, so those stats could improve and I will provide updates when I get further in. Still for stats that supposedly won't change much, that's not a great start for my newgens.

I realise I'm posting a lot and driving at the same point, but like SFraser I'm shocked that some people don't think there's a problem with the regen system.

[BathPalace]

The Gary Cahill measure - I can see it making a big impact on future FMs.

[SFraser]

Using the same game as the example above (Dudu Cearense):

-There are 9601 regens.

-4588 (47.7%) have >10 pressure

-5133 (53.4%) have >10 consistency

-2600 (27%) regens have >10 pressure and >10 consistency.

-Using Gary Cahill's stats, there are 0 regens with hidden attributes better or equal to Gary Cahill

-For regens older than 25 (so we can assume they are mostly developed) 43% have >10 pressure, 58% have >10 consistency and 28% have >10 in both which would suggest that they don't develop much either.

That's only a small sample, admittedly, but I don't want to ruin my other games. Maybe sometime I'll simulate some seasons to try and map out these regens.

Doing my own little study 4 years in the future I got similar results:

-There are 3884 regens

-1626 (41.9%) have >10 pressure

-1098 (28.3%) have >10 consistency

-476 (12.6%) regens have >10 pressure and >10 consistency.

-Using Gary Cahill's stats, there are also 0 regens with hidden attributes better or equal to Gary Cahill

Bear in mind I'm 4 seasons in, so those stats could improve and I will provide updates when I get further in. Still for stats that supposedly won't change much, that's not a great start for my newgens.

I realise I'm posting a lot and driving at the same point, but like SFraser I'm shocked that some people don't think there's a problem with the regen system.

I would say that roughly half of all newgens having 10 or less Pressure or 10 or less Consistency, with 1/4 of newgens have 10 or less Consistency + Pressure makes complete sense. The statistical basics look sound.

However ZERO newgens having the same overall level of Mental Trait quality as Gary Cahill is a clear indication of a significant flaw. The statistical basics of quantity of players having X individual attribute is sound, but the overall quality of newgens is completely flawed.

The game is therefore producing the right number and quantity of Attributes, but has completely forgotten about players being composite entities. The game generates the logical quantity of attributes, not the logical quality of players.

Overall attribute generation is fine, player generation is utterly random and pathetically poor. This is a cardinal flaw in the newgen system. It generates attributes, not players.

SI, I hope you are paying attention to this thread. It might not be the most "scientific" investigation ever undertaken but it is producing some crystal clear results.

[Brave_United]

The Gary Cahill measure - I can see it making a big impact on future FMs.

Haha yeah, I can see them now having an emergency meeting all sitting round a table saying "Guys, we've got a serious issue. Our regen system isn't creating enough Gary Cahills!"

But seriously though, Gary Cahills mental stats aren't really even that impressive. SFraser used him as your Mario of FM starting players, just an all round guy. If no regens are being produced even as good as him, then what hope is there of any regens being produced that have world class mental attributes?

[Brave_United]

However ZERO newgens having the same overall level of Mental Trait quality as Gary Cahill is a clear indication of a significant flaw. The statistical basics of quantity of players having X individual attribute is sound, but the overall quality of newgens is completely flawed.

I did another little test and whilst that conclusion is true, there is a catch.

Starting a fresh game with a large database there are a total of 12,982 starting players. However, only 3 (that's right, 3/12,982!) of those players have hidden/mental attributes equal to or better than Gary Cahill. So maybe it's a bit unfair expecting people to find a regen matching G.Cahills mental stats when only 0.02% of the starting players can even do it themselves.

I still stand by the evidence showing near 50% falls in regens being created with >80% best potential ratings.

[RBKalle]

I've finally simulated a brand new game until year 2023-24, and, as proof as my previous suspect about "awesome" newgens not being that awesome, the very first thing I've noticed [a more detailed analysis will come in the next couple of days] original db players still kick more ass than their younger newgen colleagues.

Actually, the first occurrence of a Newgen winning Player of the Year took place in season 2022-23...

That means a 30+ years old original player [Messi will be 36 in 2023] is still performing better, or still enjoys a better reputation, than any other "stellar" all 18s newgen...

That goes for pretty much ANY personal award, be it goalscorer, national PotY etc

Also, odds teams winning European Cups, Euro C'ship and making to World Cup's Last Four, thanks to the odd good Newgen, while the rest of the Top Clubs squander millions and millions on mediocre players.

That's just a quick "appetizer"...

[Alex100001]

They are, and the trend of terrible Pressure or Consistency in newgens is really starting to stick out like a sore thumb.

I have checked all the newgen screenshots in this thread, and where hidden traits can be seen 11 newgens out of 16 have either Pressure or Consistency at 10 or lower. This includes SCIAG's trend destroying FMRTE screenshots.

Personally I would consider 15 for both the "average" for a top level player, which would mean only SCIAG's newgens would qualify, but we don't seem to be accepting that standard of judgement.

It could just be luck of the draw, but it is something I mentioned early in the thread and have repeated regularly because it was a serious problem in my own save, and the newgens being produced here do seem to invariably suffer in these attributes.

Pressure is one of the most important attributes in teamtalks, man management, media interaction etc. perhaps even the single most important attribute when it comes to player interaction. Even ignoring the low Pressure scores, there does seem to be a clear trend to very deficient personalities and players very deficient when it comes to man management and interaction.

If this is true, if newgen personalities are deficient and this deficiency is widespread and inherant in the newgen system, it will have repercussions for how human players perceive Teamtalks and Man Management once newgens start becoming prevailent. What will happen is that most Teamtalk/Interaction strategies that worked at game start will no longer work when newgens make up the majority of players in the database. In effect, the game will change in the context of Man Management and Media Interaction.

Conversely it could point to a serious flaw in Mentoring, either the actual system of mentoring or how the AI mentors players, or indeed how the human player mentors players.

I've finally simulated a brand new game until year 2023-24, and, as proof as my previous suspect about "awesome" newgens not being that awesome, the very first thing I've noticed [a more detailed analysis will come in the next couple of days] original db players still kick more ass than their younger newgen colleagues.

Actually, the first occurrence of a Newgen winning Player of the Year took place in season 2022-23...

That means a 30+ years old original player [Messi will be 36 in 2023] is still performing better, or still enjoys a better reputation, than any other "stellar" all 18s newgen...

That goes for pretty much ANY personal award, be it goalscorer, national PotY etc

Also, odds teams winning European Cups, Euro C'ship and making to World Cup's Last Four, thanks to the odd good Newgen, while the rest of the Top Clubs squander millions and millions on mediocre players.

That's just a quick "appetizer"...

Again my game doesn't seem as extreme as some of these examples. The english player of the year was first won by a newgen in 2017-18.

Also out of the top 20 valued players in my game (im in 2019) 8 are newgens, so again, seems the balance is a little out, but not massively dramatic.

Mind you as I have stated I have 15 of the major leagues of Europe running (view only, top division only) so I think this helps matters.

The problem with Football Manager, even harking back to ChampMan days, is if you don't run a fair few leagues your game will end up quite crap quite quickly. Winning in Europe becomes a breeze, and newgens which aren't from the leagues in which you have playing are much worse.

Not sure if anyone knows, but how is the newgen process in Championship Manager these days?

[dking]

i've never seen so much crap in my life, i've played this game well into it and why do i see great players coming through, yes theres a few odd players with odd stats but the majority of regens are fine in my game. Some have odd weakness's but like the guy said, theres no perfect player, If you have players with odd stats why dont u retrain them, Rio ferdinand in his youth was a Striker, He wasnt good enough so he got put to a CB.

Look at this pic, 2 players both are wingers, Ones real and ones a regen,

who would u have?, the selfless regen or the selfish ronaldo?, The regens weak in the air but can help defending, Ronaldo does not help defending

Ten out of ten for completely missing the point, again.

What does this prove anyway, that a regen is good? Brilliant, you're lucky enough to have a world class regen who has missing stats where it isn't going to affect him playing in his position. It's one regen. Now show me the rest of your quality regens that fill up your team and are in your youth set up.

[jayahr]

I know I'm repeating myself, but the fact that Cahill's attributes are so well-rounded and nice, while not being over the top, in absolutely all key-areas for centre-backs is more proof for the flaws of the initial db rather than shortcomings of the newgen engine.

There may be a player which is just that well rounded, but way more likely this is a result of sub-optimal research which we should not base our expectations on.

[Da Beezer]

What was wrong with the regen system? Any chance they will bring that back? It kept a well balanced game, for sure.

[jayahr]

What was wrong with the regen system? Any chance they will bring that back? It kept a well balanced game, for sure.

I think it made things a bit too obvious.

Every time George Weah retired, I kept signing the one promising looking striker from Liberia. Also scouting for a Dutch SW, DM, F C was easy. You'd sign Ruud Gullit in essence.

Besides that, the new system relies on probabilities and chance and is thus a lot more life-like. Look at countries with its golden generations. Romania, Portugal, Ivory Coast and the likes would either keep on having superstars at an unrealistic level or never get any as the level of nations would always remain the same if players were only replaced by exact copies.

I'm happy we have moved beyond that level and certainly hope it won't be brought back. Still, this system is obviously more prone to insufficiencies, which no doubt exist and should be addressed.

[Siddhu]

Between him and Gary Cahill I know who I would rather have

[tmonkey]

I think it made things a bit too obvious.

Every time George Weah retired, I kept signing the one promising looking striker from Liberia. Also scouting for a Dutch SW, DM, F C was easy. You'd sign Ruud Gullit in essence.

Besides that, the new system relies on probabilities and chance and is thus a lot more life-like. Look at countries with its golden generations. Romania, Portugal, Ivory Coast and the likes would either keep on having superstars at an unrealistic level or never get any as the level of nations would always remain the same if players were only replaced by exact copies.

I'm happy we have moved beyond that level and certainly hope it won't be brought back. Still, this system is obviously more prone to insufficiencies, which no doubt exist and should be addressed.

Agree with you to an extent.

In terms of actual systems, I personally preferred the old CM sytem of shortlisting Bergkamp and then having his regen still in your shortlist in comparison to the current system. Granted, it was "unrealistic" and lead to a continuation of the start game talent pool forever, but it maintained the standard of players at a consistent level. If you look at it solely from the viewpoint of enjoyment of a game rather than it's real-world reflective qualities, I'd say that because I enjoyed the start game world created by FM the most, I still continued to enjoy the "end-game" world created by FM, because the regen system created the same environment that you get at the beginning of the game.

In theory, the new system is alot better because as you say, it breaks the monotony of having the same players effectively in the game forever, and will introduce new/different talents based on players who don't exist at the start of the game, thereby actually making the implementation of a good scouting network important/worthwhile. But in reality, the new system doesn't achieve what it needs to for many of us gamers who love FM - the drop in the level of stats ruins the game for many of us (others are happy with it, good for them). There are some regens who might match with good start-game players, but the quantity of those players is considerably smaller than at the beginning, and furthermore many of these players are flawed because of the random distribution of hidden attributes.

The point being, as per the other recent thread on this issue, is that having the best of both worlds to some degree should suffice for now. I get that a more "realistic" regen system is going to be very difficult to implement and code, so the new system might take a long while for SI to perfect. Hence, for FM 11 the proposal was that we should see some sort of trade-off between the random regen system and the concept of creating regens based on real players with set criteria. I'm not advocating the old system specifically, i.e. I'm not saying Drogba should regenerate in 2015 after he retires, but rather that SI implement a system of regenerating a minimum number of players who meet the sort of criteria that you'd associate with world class players. If the regen system fails to generate that minimum number of players, then why not top up the regen system with additional regens who do?

For example, FM Genie Scout has a set of attributes that it weighs when deciding how good a player is in each specific position. If you included mental/hidden stats in that weighting based on the types of quality players you get at the start of the game for each position, and then provide checks each year to ensure that regens are produced who meet the criteria, is that going to be anything other than a positive for people who enjoy playing the long-term career game within FM?

Without that sort of check in place, will SI be able to ensure the overall quality of regens doesn't drop off like it currently does? Possibly, but based on recent iterations and updates, that might take longer than what many of us customers ideally want.

[Mezz Boms]

Siddhu what is his tempermant and loyalty?

[SFraser]

Between him and Gary Cahill I know who I would rather have

Nice Natural Fitness there, get to play him often?

And with Consistency of 12 does he play like he looks much?

I'm sure everyone can come up with someone that looks better than Cahill, but how many all-round decent players, non obviously random and crucially flawed players, players that look right and play well and dont suck in key areas, can you find?

We can all find Strikers with 5 Natural Fitness, 5 Consistency, 5 Pressure and 9000 for Finishing/Off the Ball/Anticipation/Dribbling. What many of us want is players for 10 or even 15 for key stats, like Gary Cahill. Nothing uber special and uber rubbish at the same time, just decent and average and that reflects the players you get at game start.

Cahill isn't the best defender in the game, just all-round decent and solid. You don't get that from the newgen system.

I mean Anticipation 17, Composure 9, Creativity 13, Natural Fitness 6, Strength 19, doesn't that seem a bit too random for a Central Defender?

Consistency 12, Important Matches 17. Aggression 7, Bravery 15. Not seeing any slight issues here?

Corners 8, Crossing 1. Long Throws 7, Finishing 10. Off the Ball 14, Concentration 15.

I am sure this guy is awesome at the back, but he doesn't look much like a Central Defender to me. He is totally random and non-sensical.

[Mezz Boms]

I agree with you SFraser about the newgens (or regens if your old school like me haha) being unbalanced in stats, and i also agree with the point made earlier that the current players might be over ratedby researchers however i stand by my first thoughts when reading that comment, the database over 5 years into the save should mirror the database at the start of the save regardless of the ratings given so it is clear to me that the researchers arn't the problem it is the current regen system

[ArsenalFan7]

Dunno what you're on about.

I get some pretty brilliant regens on my villa career.

Even if they lack a few important areas and even if they can only use one foot most of the time.

[SFraser]

the database over 5 years into the save should mirror the database at the start of the save regardless of the ratings given

Absolutely spot on. That's it in a nutshell.

[looknohands]

Absolutely spot on. That's it in a nutshell.

The problem with that, though, is that you're asking a computer program to replicate the work of a person. I just don't know if that's quite possible...I suppose you could have attributes be tied together -say, acceleration and pace shouldn't have more than a 3 point difference- but I don't know if it's possible to create the Cahill's of FM without having too many similar players in-game. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing hidden attributes entirely done away with if they have such a big impact on my game...

[santy001]

I holidayed a game into 2044 last night, I'll give it a check in the morning see what it comes out with, if I do it again the following night should get closer to 2070 and see then it will help provide some more figures to it one way or another.

[PnyX]

Just came across this, and I have to say this is the main reason why I have to abandon brilliant saves after about 10 seasons.

The AI managers' inability to mould players means that 10 to 15 seasons into the game I'm scoring 5 goals or more per game against EVERYBODY and that is just wrong!

And to those trying to defend the undefendable, you can't be serious trying to downplay this fundamental flaw.

Sort it out SI, please.

[Alex100001]

How many leagues you got running? There seems a shortage of plague proportions in your game if you whack everyone 5-0.

im in 2019-2020 and whilst the generated players seem to have not as rounded traits in a lot of cases, but I think in my game what will happen is a fairly seemless and everyone on a similar playing field, not making the game not that much easier or harder. But I have 15 European Leagues running in view-only mode, which must help the newgens develop.

In Man City's side only 8 out of their squad of 25 are newgens (and 3-4 in their best 11). This is a side which is 11 points clear on top of the premier league after 24 games.

[Pangaea]

SI knows there are problems with the current system, and I'm sure they are in the process of rectifying it as we speak. But these kind of threads do tend to over-exaggerate the problem. I'm seeing heaps of great regens, it's not like you won't be able to play the game or your tactics 10-20 years down the line because the new players are 'broken'.

If I remember correct, the original database also overshoots attributes compared to what they should have given their current ability rating, so you can't really compare the two sets of players directly. Hopefully this, too, will be looked at for FM2011.

I think SI wanted a fluid database that didn't create copycat players. There should be variety in what kind of players are popping up. All DCs shouldn't be tall and have great jumping, heading and marking etc. It's a difficult balance, but I know they have clever heads looking into it. Time will tell if they crack it this time around. But I remember there being some very constructive threads during betatesting, which should help them now.

An issue I've seen that was mentioned in beta too is that the database tends to shrink over time. I am now seeing that the price my scouts put on new players are considerably higher than before. This may be connected.

Another issue that has been with us for years, is that England (active leagues?) get too good newgens compared to other leagues. Which leads England to dominate international tournaments, at least to a higher degree than they should. This can be due to several reasons.

1. Too few (good) newgens created in inactive but big footballing nations

2. They are created, but aren't being trained properly since they are in inactive leagues and clubs

3. They are created, but aren't picked up by clubs, or released, and retired at some early point

4. Something else.

This whole issue of newgens is of course crucial for long-term games. But being in the process of playing such a game, I can't honestly say the players are bad. As I mentioned before in this thread, I'm seeing some really fantastic players, arguably better than in the original database. I don't use 3rd party software so have no idea what their hidden attributes are like, but they sure perform very well so it can't be all bad.

[RBKalle]

Newgen Experiment 2024

* 10.3 database, no updates, no addons

* Large Database

* EPL

* La Liga

* Serie A

* Bundesliga

* Yearly savegames until August 2024

* Human manager permanently unemployed

Part 1: European Goalkeeper of the year Award

* Rubén Martín - Barcelona

Among other things, Euro GotY four years in a row, from 2020 to 2023.

* Juan Manuel Illiano - Man City

1x Euro GotY, 1x runner-up. Has won everything he could with City

* Gábor Kovács - Real Madrid

Young and cheap, 2x Euro GotY runner-up, 1x EGotY third places, 2x La Liga GotY

* Mickey Karg - Liverpool

The first Newgen keeper to win EGotY in 2018, Euro 2024 Champion and Keeper of the Tournament. Held back by LFC's lack of success.

/End of part 1, feel free to compare those keepers with those who are in the original db

To provide a further term of comparison, Casillas won his last EGotY in 2017, aged 36.

Hugo Lloris was runner-up as late as in 2021, and third placed in 2022.

Jason Steele took third place in 2021

I might post their octagon for reference, but I suspect it's more about reputation than about actual skills...

Still, I wouldn't buy most of those multi-awarded keepers for a Top Team in 2010...

Coming next.... defenders

[RBKalle]

Here's the hiddens stats+octagon for the original DB keepers of Barca, Real, LFC and Inter [instead of Man City, who's still poor at the beginning compared to what it becomes later on, so I think the comparison is quite fair]

Of course the hidden attributes and the octagons AREN'T in the same order, so you can't really tell whom the hidden atteributes belong to... But you can always guess

The "poorest" of those four is more or less on par (even mentally) with the "Buffon of the future", and keep in mind I don't think nor Reina nor Valdés (much less so) can be considered Goalkeeper of the Year material... So let's say the 2020s best newgens can be compared with "barely adequate" 2010 keepers at the highest level.

Still, every newgen has at least one major weakness, even disregarding the mental stats

[RBKalle]

Part 2: European Defender of the Year

Fernando Levi - Inter[/b]

Pretty much THE ultimate CB in the game... 6 years in a row DotY, 2x World Footballer of the Year etc...

Good all-around stats, just weak in Temperament and Sportsmanship... But hardly something to complain about given the standard of newgens.

Rudolf Sourek - Man City

DotY runner-up once, and third placed on three occasions, also runner up as WC best player twice.

Kinda slow, low aggression, terrible balance... Basically a good 80s Premiership centreback... the one who'll either sweep the ball or your ankles.

Aaand let's take a look to his ABYSMAL mental traits... The epitome of locker room poison, the kind of guy who'd kick your ass because he didn't like the way you said "hi" to him.

Would YOU pay £100M for him? I sure wouldn't.

Helmi Mrad - Lazio

DotY runner-up twice, apparently overachieving...

On the slow side for a wingback, poor fitness, but at least balanced (sort of) mentally, that explains his good performances.

Roberto Benítez - Real Madrid

6x shortlisted for Footballer of the year, 2x DotY runner up. Consistently over 7.75 AvR at Real

Another brilliant example of a physically superb player who is quite lazy on the field, when he's not throwing hissy fits about absolutely nothing...

1 Sportsmanship and 1 Temperament... wow...One step away from being a serial killer?

Not too shabby, apparently... Much better than I was expecting, but still we're still dealing with unbalanced players.

Still I can totally live with that, as I was expecting much worse even at the highest level...

However such moderate enthusiasm had to be shortlived....

[To Be Continued]

[Gypsum]

I can't say i've noticed a trend for sub-par regens in my game... but maybe i've been playing so long (2032, I think every player is a regen now) I have just got used to the standard. While I would say my current squad would stack up well against any team throughout the game, it may be the case that I have just scalped all the best young players around right now. Once i've built a solid squad of youngsters I tend to dominate. The only team that comes close to me is Leeds, and that's only really because they are my old team, and have kept most of my players!

I'll see if I can get a screenshot of all the world's best players on FM Scout or something... what would you guys like to see?

[RBKalle]

Sooo, let's take a look to the first Newgen Defender to win DotY in 2016...

Daniel Fuentes - Genoa/Man Utd

The same guy who got bought TWICE for +£60M, being #2 and #4 in the Leading Transfers list

Yet another pacey defender, who could work wonderfully as centreback, if it wasn't for the fact he can't jump... Also he lacks a bit in the offensive side to be an effective offensive fullback.

And his mental traits are average at best.

Basically an "Ibrahimovic-like" player, who's great as long as there isn't much at stake.

A player you'd spend 60 millions on? Twice?!

Also, not a newgen, but that was just to give you a hint about how "great" the average newgens can be compared to original db players...

Lorenzo Ariaudo - Man Utd

#7 in the Leading Transfers list...

Man Utd paid around £40M for this guy...

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c301/Loki_1979/Newgens/ariaudo.jpg

Not to mention the fact I still think Ariaudo won't ever be good enough to play at that level, him being worth that amount of money is plain laughable.

But if HE had such a ludicrous pricetag, that means the rest of the field was just terrible.

Let's just guess the other options were equally expensive [broken-ish transfer system] and not equally ok [broken-ish newgen system]

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is the king

[conshaldo_bonaldo]

i find it funny he started in 2012/13 and had his uruguay debut in 2012. its another of those players who just come into the game as complete players. its so false

[conshaldo_bonaldo]

You are right, but I believe the comparison with the starting db has some flaw to it as well.

I firmly believe that the real players in the databse are in fact less rounded irl than they are in the game.

I remember that when I was a researcher myself, every time I was unsure what figure to give to a player in a certain attribute I always used to favour a figure which he should have in his position when in doubt. Certainly neither I nor any other researcher will choose any value but for the ones he thinks is right to the best of his conscience, but judging from my own experience it's really difficult to get things really right and when in doubt, the chosen values will always appear a bit more well-rounded than they probably are.

this is spot on.

i mean lets say for example, a player in real life might not have even had a shot at goal, and hes a defender, how do the researchers know how good he is at it? ...so in short, the regens are a bit random but whos to say a large number of players playing in a certain position in real life couldnt actually do better than their poor attributes given? and the fact about poor regen attributes in position specific areas - thats what training is for. they obviously didnt get optimum training and tutoring.

mental attributes can be directly affected by doing careful tutoring of youth players.

[conshaldo_bonaldo]

Which leads to another question: It's all good when human managers can spot these flaws and focus the players' training on either improving a certain attribute or to another position. But are the AI managers smart enough to do that?

i dont think the AI is that smart... and if i try to think of any AI controlled players i cant think of one whose manager has asked them to train a different position, never mind a totally different one.

i mean, how many real life youth players turned out to play in a position the other side of the playing field???

one from the england team off the topof my head is ashley cole, who started out as a striker....

[philly_flyer10]

I think it made things a bit too obvious.

Every time George Weah retired, I kept signing the one promising looking striker from Liberia. Also scouting for a Dutch SW, DM, F C was easy. You'd sign Ruud Gullit in essence.

That was part of the fun of that game, sure beats having every long term game ruined by the newgens.

[Cinnabon09]

Originally posted by Lance101

I have decided to put my money where my money is... here go ALL the correlations and averages for two different databases:

1- Crouchaldinho 2039 database with england, spain and italy

2- A database with the same specs at 2009.

You can see the excel files here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2917212/FM/2009.xls

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2917212/FM/2039.xls

Some quick observations:

- Player number has diminished somewhat between 2009 and 2039 (from over 27 thousand to over 26 thousand)

- Average CA has diminished considerably!! (69.7 to 61.4)

- Average PA has also diminished considerably!! (99.1 to 89.6)

- Some correlations between CA based attributes seem okay (eg. heading-jumping correlation goes form .37 at the beginning to .36 in 2039) but some others don't hold up so well (eg. decisions-composure correlation goes from .57 at the beginning to .47 in 2039)

-Correlations with attributes that are not part of CA go totally down the toilet (eg. flair dribbling .54 in 09 goes to .42 in 2039, pressure important matches = .22 in 2009 goes to 0.00!!!! in 2039, sportsmanship-dirtiness -.07 in in 2009 goes to -.01 in 2039).

I should also point out that the correlations at the initial database are probably biased towards zero, because they already include lots of generated attributes for all the attributes that have 0s in the data research - I suspect that calculating the correlations for only the researched players would provide even higher initial correlations than the ones I present in the excel file.

Feel free to download, play with it and provide more analysis!

(Weighting for dms is one of the few things that have been fixed since this patch)

And some of his comments:

Correlation between CA and important matches goes from .45 in 2009 to .13 in 2039! Between CA and determination goes from .55 in 2009 to .24 in 2039! Massive lowering of the mental, non CA, attributes of good players...

2009: 35% players acceleration > pace

2039: 42% players acceleration > pace

Another common argument by people - jumping of quality DCs:

Average value of jumping for natural DCs with CA>=120:

2009 - 14.6 (693 players)

2039 - 13.7 (533 players)

Strikers with CA>=120 Average difference between jumping and heading:

2009: 1.9 (762 players)

2039: 2.5 (562 players)

Average agility of GKs:

2009: 10.1

2039: 8.7

[Cinnabon09]

Original link:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=172218&page=3

[SFraser]

Though the findings do tend to support my view that newgens are flawed, I have to say that correlations are the work of the devil and should be trusted as much as Lucifer himself.

[Cinnabon09]

The change in correlations do suggest that some of the players attributes are just randomly assigned though. It is therefore not surprising to see almost all of the regen players having some major flaws

[x42bn6]

Though the findings do tend to support my view that newgens are flawed, I have to say that correlations are the work of the devil and should be trusted as much as Lucifer himself.

Nothing wrong with correlations in this case, as the main factor that is different is time, so unless temporal effects manifest themselves over 30 years, it's probably not a problem.

[RBKalle]

It's worth to mention I've noticed another major flaw [some of you will have known that for months already]

Abysmal Off the Ball/Positioning attributes

Same savegames I used for the previous examples:

Players with CA >120, Positioning and OtB <9

* June 2009: 23

* August 2024: 84 [24 of them are natural DC]

Also Flair and Influence seem to fall into the same pattern, but as Influence tend to rise as a player gets older, I'll leave that out.

Still, there seems to be some sort of preset "flaw pattern", where some attributes are always terrible, almost as if they were paired together. Oddly enough that doesn't happen for attributes which are/should be linked for obvious reasons...

So if on one hand we have plenty of newgens who need a GPS to stick to their position, on the other hand we have players who have Pace but not Acceleration, or who are great at headers despite not being able to jump etc.

[Sheffield Sunday]

Isn't all this about context and relativity. i.e. just because there is only a handful of players >180 PA points at a given moment in time doesn't mean that there aren't any good players, it just means that in relative terms those with the highest CA/PA are more likey to stand out.

For example certain things go in cycles, economy etc, surely the relative ability of footballers is something else that can go in cycles?

Or am I missing the argument somewhere along the lines?

[lawd]

I think the main argument is not the levels of CA/PA later in the game, but how some of the attributes are dished out, the main problem being some extremely low attributes in important areas either for the players position, or in their hidden attributes. I think anyway lol.

[Saevel]

Sure would be nice with some acknowledgment from SI that this is really being focused on for FM11.

Along with team management AI this is probably the biggest thing affecting long term games now.

[AB-forever]

I did another little test and whilst that conclusion is true, there is a catch.

Starting a fresh game with a large database there are a total of 12,982 starting players. However, only 3 (that's right, 3/12,982!) of those players have hidden/mental attributes equal to or better than Gary Cahill. So maybe it's a bit unfair expecting people to find a regen matching G.Cahills mental stats when only 0.02% of the starting players can even do it themselves.

I still stand by the evidence showing near 50% falls in regens being created with >80% best potential ratings.

SFraser never acknowledged this point when he was asking people to find a newgen version of Cahill.

Though it should be quite obvious that there is a problem with newgens and their unweighed attributes I think the point about flaws in the db is extremely important.

I also think this problem could be present in the game due to the AI's stupidity, especially when assigning tutors. How many 16-year-olds (the age of newgens when they are created) are ambitious, professional, adaptable, uncontroversial and sporting as well as being good at handing pressure and controlling their temper? The answer is extremely few, and I'd think this is also the case in the game. The problem is that these players usually correct most of their flaws through tutoring and/or gaining experience and it seems this doesn't happen enough in the game.

[Ammar Rehman]

hahahahah, maybe everyone that plays the game till 203X should get out a bit more.

lol, its a joke, don't take it too seriously.

[uae4life]

Look to settle the argument, create a custom database with a league of 2 teams, team best of original v team best of new-gens.

[Da Beezer]

I think it made things a bit too obvious.

Every time George Weah retired, I kept signing the one promising looking striker from Liberia. Also scouting for a Dutch SW, DM, F C was easy. You'd sign Ruud Gullit in essence.

Give the regens arandom nationality and problem solved, you have the ultimate system in place! Instead we get these ****** newgens that ruins long term games.