People dont want 3d engine because they have no faith in si

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

You don't know what you are talking about. It is already a 3D match engine, been stated several times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take it in the context it was meant then, rather than be so ignorant. Just to clarify my post was re: the actual vision of 3D highlights (which would require a considerable improvement in graphics and so game size) rather than a 3D match engine.

I don't appreciate your rather infantile and cretinous "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. It's the first post I have made in this thread, I was offering my opinion and whilst you may disagree the way in which you do it is outside the forum rules. Rather than offer any opinion of your own you resorted to a condescending attitude, which says more about you than my initial mistake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure that is not entirely correct lonestar. If you are going by what stomalomalus said at the top of this page, as it appears you seem to be suggesting, then who is to say he is correct. There has also been the view that adding a fully 3D match engine would mean a lot of work to get the current gameplay to flow with it.

Look at both sides of the coin before you try to be arrogant. Don't accept the first argument you hear and quash anyone else for formulating an opposing argument. You are doing the exact same thing you are complaining about.

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly the most ridiculous statement I've seen for a long time.

[TeeWee]

My 2 eurocents:

(To forestall comments: 3D engine means 3D graphical engine in this post)

FM is already a very resource hungry application. The resource FM likes are main memory and pure processing power. A 3D engine should primarily tax your graphics card. Furthermore, a good 3D engine scales downwards as well as upwards. Any PC with a decent graphic card won't let a 3D engine eat many of the resources the FM-core likes.

This doesn't take into account the office PCs, cheaper PCs with onboard video or laptops, all of which are crappy in the 3D department. People running these systems will find a degradation in performance due to 3D engine. However, one can argue that the FM-core is already so heavy on the resources in a future release, that the degradation in performance due to 3D is "insignificant" compared to the degradation due to the added complexity of the core calculations.

The resources the FM-core wants can be toned down by using smaller databases. The resources the 3D engine want can be toned down by using less detail. I believe that the 3D aspect will require far less extra resources that compete with the FM-core than people would think.

That said, is it worth it to create a 3D engine? There are several aspects to this.

One is, does it add more insight into the workings of the match engine? The most primal reaction is, no. Footie is mostly a 2D game; the height aspect is, compared to the two other dimensions, clearly of secondary importance. What little you want to represent, the current 2D engine represents it well enough. That said, a 3D engine done well where you can actually see the limbs moving and elbows being flung will probably help you intuit what's going on without needing to read the commentary lines.

Another point is, I think we've reached the point in time where a decent 3D engine is so cheap and 3D artists/programmers so abundant, that it's actually cheaper to implement a 3D engine than it is to implement a 2D engine. Things like camera positioning and zoom levels, if needed, are easily included in a 3D engine and hard to implement in a 2D engine. So if those are functions you want to have, 3D is the way to go.

Thirdly, the more realistic the engine is, the more you'll notice the deficiencies of the engine. Look at 3D games; people will start complaining about how a person moves in the game, that it's too robotic. Take a 2D platformer with cartoony animations, nobody will complain about it. So, it's very very very hard to do a 3D engine well.

Finally, 3D engine, whether you like to admit it or not, does sell, in the sense that non-3D games are finding it harder and harder to get decent amount of shelf space in stores.

A more general formulation of the first point is the most important one in the end. What improvements to the graphical representation do we need/want to better understand the match engine? A good graphics engine (e.g. PES) will help most people intuit what's going on on the pitch. That said, it will open up a can of worms which SI may not want opened ("the players move too blocky/repetitive", "he wasn't hit on max zoom, but he was fouled anyway!" etc.). Better commentary however, can be a different path to the same end result, though with a lesser intuitive feel: visual information is usually processed better than textual information.

I believe that currently, SI will not be able to make a 3D engine that's good enough to warrant making one. So, right now, I think the time is not yet right for 3D. This is, for me, more an argument of what functionality you need and can achieve with a graphics engine than an issue of principle which some people here make of it.

[This field intentionally l]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">at first i thought people were just being difficult

and saying they dont want it just for the sake of it

but more and more

it seems that people keeping on saying they dont want it

because of stuff like

'its gonna be too buggy'

'they want it to be perfect first'

'si cant even get a 2d engine right' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are the worst attempts at Haiku I've ever seen.

As for 3D I doubt SI would want to get into that space; its dominated by other products. Plus they probably know they don't have the capabilities to execute it to their standards.

[likuang]

2d is hot

3d may distract some players

i cannot get used to the 3d engine

it doesn't si has no faith in it

but if the team made such game, they would lose some of the heavy users

[Myros]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">People will eventualy stop buying if all we get is and endless series of minor tweeks to the same engine and charged full price. I can see it now:

"Football Manager 2012 ... now with flashing icons and a new in-depth injury model!! Only $59.99!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It hasn't stopped people buying it since 1992, with just season updates for the first few years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah thats right, we are still using the pure text match engine. SI knew that they didnt have to update and advance the genre.

Oh wait .. ;p

Myros

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly the most ridiculous statement I've seen for a long time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps its ridiculous to you, but from a programming point of view the match engine itself is separate from its representation. So changing the representation of it from 2d to 3d would not affect the match engine. After all it already has to internally calculate everything in 3d space. (im a here of course assuming that the match engine is not a complete mess)

[Myros]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Myros:

People will eventualy stop buying if all we get is and endless series of minor tweeks to the same engine and charged full price. I can see it now:

"Football Manager 2012 ... now with flashing icons and a new in-depth injury model!! Only $59.99!"

;p

Myros </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll buy it every year because FM is the best football management sim by a long, long way. I also like playing football management sims and think that SI provide value for money with the updates they provide.

I also understand just how much work a small development team does each year. Obviously you do not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gimme a break. SI are hardly 2 guys working in a basement any more, they are a well established dev firm with 15 years of experience, many millions of product sold and 34 full time staff. Not to mention the fact they are part of a huge multi-national corporation.

I understand VERY well the work a small firm do, SI are huge compared to the firms I work for ;p

Of course SI work hard, whats that got to do with anything being discussed here? Evolve or die is the old saying and it applies to business, software development and everything else. And when it comes to the audio and visual departments SI have not evolved the FM series in any meaningful way since they developed the 2d graphics match engine.

Is a full 3d engine the next step? /shrug. As I mentioned before Id be just as happy with a quality audio commentary developed to compliment the current 2d engine, like radio broadcast quality. Leadership and inovation can take many forms, but reselling the same tired engine with minor tweeks isnt IMO displaying either.

Myros

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

I don't know much about computers tbh but surely recreating the amount of scenarios currently in the 2D set up would take a hell of a lot. If we take 10 square yards, replicating all the positions a ball can land/roll/bounce in 2D would be ok but to do that 3D would be an insane amount of work.

Even if it was only double the size of the current 2D format, it could halve peoples gaming experience. It's well documented on these forums that players have had to cut careers short because it gets to a point when the game is just too slow to play and that's with 2D, if 3D was implemented then far more people would suffer from this.

BTW thanks for the sensible reply/discussion, it certainly makes a change from some peoples bullying nature on these forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see you really dont know much about how things work internally. There are no predefined scenarios since that would be veeeery repetitive and not a very good approach at tackling the problem. The match engine is a carefully tweaked AI and most of the hard work is already done. IMO even though it has bugs its very impressive at how realistic it actually looks considering that just tweaking a few variables probably affects the results in ways that even the programmer hasn't anticipated. Switching to 3d shouldn't affect the processing since its already done in 3d. The engine should already know the state of each object in the game. All it has to do is expose this to the match display portion of the game which does the rendering. The match engine itself doesn't care weather the final result is in 2d or in 3d.

To say that switching to 3d would somehow double the requirements is absurd. Most of the processing power and memory is most likely used up by huge amount of player data, match processing, updating the state of each player etc etc. 3d graphics is accelerated on every computer and texture memory requirements are several orders of magnitude lower for a management game 3d engine than opposed to an arcade game engine.

[disasterd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

Not even a real world manager sees the real extent of a tackle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

real managers also dont see the whole pitch

but people say they dont want 3d because they wont be able to see the whole pitch at once

[disasterd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly the most ridiculous statement I've seen for a long time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree

that (trying to be polite) is quite a weird comment

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

Not even a real world manager sees the real extent of a tackle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

real managers also dont see the whole pitch

but people say they dont want 3d because they wont be able to see the whole pitch at once </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i believe that seeing the whole of the pitch was a requirement when SI decided to go for the 2d match representation.

also i do like to move through the match at quite a high speed.

with blobs it looks ok.

if SI could make it so that little people moving around at benny hill speeds looked OK then that's good but i think it would look strange.

[disasterd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

also i do like to move through the match at quite a high speed.

with blobs it looks ok.

if SI could make it so that little people moving around at benny hill speeds looked OK then that's good but i think it would look strange. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but u are not being forced to go through the match at high speeds.

if it looks strange you could just watch it at 'normal' speed.

[Kriss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ridleys:

I repeat,

The match engine is 3D already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is nobody reading this! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No because the match representation is 2D. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it's not, there are visual 3D elements.

[saulty2805]

Whenever anybody talks about a 3D match engine i automatically think about LMA Manager, if anyone has had past experience of LMA Manager they would know how bad the 3D match engine is. I wouldn't want FM to ruin a good game by adding a 3d match engine. Im sorry i think a FULLY 3D match engine would be worthless

[13xForever]

a 3D match engine would be good for a footy manager game.

codemasters pulled it off quite well with there footy managers games...they stopped making em now tho.

it would def be good but with all the different things that happen in the 2d match engine would hard to put to 3d

[Dave C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Evolve or die is the old saying and it applies to business, software development and everything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually in any field, especially harking back to biology from whence evolution came, evolution for the sake of it can ultimately be as fatal as stagnation.

What you really want is to be a good generalist, capable of weathering catastrophic change.

[saulty2805]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Evolve or die is the old saying and it applies to business, software development and everything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually in any field, especially harking back to biology from whence evolution came, evolution for the sake of it can ultimately be as fatal as stagnation.

What you really want is to be a good generalist, capable of weathering catastrophic change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no offence. but could we have that in english please

[Dave C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saulty2805:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Evolve or die is the old saying and it applies to business, software development and everything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually in any field, especially harking back to biology from whence evolution came, evolution for the sake of it can ultimately be as fatal as stagnation.

What you really want is to be a good generalist, capable of weathering catastrophic change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no offence. but could we have that in english please </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was english. You want "Simpleton's English"

"Change can be as bad as no change" any better for you?

[saulty2805]

thanks, it was Simpletons English i was looking for, im sorry im not as intelligent as some people ... i think you are right in what you say though.

[TeeWee]

Maybe we don't need a 3D graphics engine, but more of a KickOff/SensiSoc-like overhead view instead of the blobs to give just a tad more intuitive (the sense that visual information is usually more accessible than textual information) feedback.

[saulty2805]

that could be a step in the wrong direction

[DaveRH]

Interesting thread, although perhaps the original premise wasn't very well put.

A couple of points to throw into the mix:

Issues

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> There has always been a 2D representation of the game in football manager (or CM) - We just couldn't see it. The leap from text to the CM4 2D pitch was not as major a development as you might think. It's certainly nothing compared to the leap that would be required in implementing a good 3D engine.

<LI> The existing match engine has not been built with 3D animation in mind. In order to get a good 3D representation you would have to factor in a level of physics well beyond what is in place at the moment. This is a really major task and basically a complete re-write of the existing engine in a field in which the existing development team has no experience.

<LI> If we do get a 3D engine, what would happen with regard to licensing rights for the players images? How about stadium likeness? There are exclusive image rights retained by different companies - would those players/teams/stadia have to be cut from the game?

<LI>How would we model each and every player's physical characteristics properly? I don't think that the existing research mechanisms are up to it.

<LI>Would SI want to scale up the physical hardware requirements for the game to the degree which a good 3D engine would take? How would they factor in their Mac product?

<LI>Would the CPU load increase beyond a reasonable point? One of the standing principles of FM is that every game in your league (and other leagues you select) use the same engine and I can't see that changing any time soon. So remember, when you talk about the calculations required for the match engine, you aren't talking about one match at a time - you're actually talking about every match on your active leagues list.

Some solutions

In terms of the repetitive nature of the 3D engines out there already, I'd suggest that an engine similar to the Euphoria could take care of that - with the proviso that it's extremely CPU intensive.

A quick summary of the engine is that it imbues your 3D model which a central nervous system which will react in a very life-like manner - rather than fixed animations which is what 3D football games ALL use at the moment. So - rather than a player kicking the ball using a pre-rendered animation which is bolted onto a 3D model - the 3D model will actually take a swing at the ball in accordance with the physics engine in place, whilst keeping his balance, riding tackles etc (all calculated in real time).

I haven't given Euphoria a lot of justice in this example - so I'll suggest looking at footage from the next-gen console titles GTA4 and the Force Unleashed.

[Kriss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">a 3D match engine would be good for a footy manager game.

codemasters pulled it off quite well with there footy managers games...they stopped making em now tho. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing as funny as unintentional irony

[Iwan Owen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TeeWee:

Maybe we don't need a 3D graphics engine, but more of a KickOff/SensiSoc-like overhead view instead of the blobs to give just a tad more intuitive (the sense that visual information is usually more accessible than textual information) feedback. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. A sensible soccer style overhead view wouldn`t be a massive leap in terms of development from the current graphics for SI to implement as the graphics would still be fairly basic, but it would be much more enjoyable to watch and would give you a far better idea of the highlights i.e. whether a goal was scored from a header, or when a sliding tackle occured etc.

The following link will give people an idea of the kind of thing i mean:

As you can see, the graphics are fairly basic, but would add a lot to the game IMHO...

[Iwan Owen]

Sorry, that link doesn`t seem to work, and i`m unable to edit my post. One of these following links should hopefully work:

DexterMorgan72/1159379155.jpg" border="0" alt="sensible soccer"></a>

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn123/DexterMorgan72/1159379155.jpg

[Ackter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

I just don't think that it would be financially viable. How many sales will it really add to the series when the initial cost outlay will be massive? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not really a question of how many sales will will it add, but how many sales will it keep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a simple question of "would the money needed to create a 3D engine be recouped any time soon?".

The answer is almost certainly "No".

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saulty2805:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Evolve or die is the old saying and it applies to business, software development and everything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually in any field, especially harking back to biology from whence evolution came, evolution for the sake of it can ultimately be as fatal as stagnation.

What you really want is to be a good generalist, capable of weathering catastrophic change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no offence. but could we have that in english please </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was english. You want "Simpleton's English"

"Change can be as bad as no change" any better for you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely, a counter-argument is 'evolution from whence biology came'

[Nomis07]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

I see you really dont know much about how things work internally. There are no predefined scenarios since that would be veeeery repetitive and not a very good approach at tackling the problem. The match engine is a carefully tweaked AI and most of the hard work is already done. IMO even though it has bugs its very impressive at how realistic it actually looks considering that just tweaking a few variables probably affects the results in ways that even the programmer hasn't anticipated. Switching to 3d shouldn't affect the processing since its already done in 3d. The engine should already know the state of each object in the game. All it has to do is expose this to the match display portion of the game which does the rendering. The match engine itself doesn't care weather the final result is in 2d or in 3d.

To say that switching to 3d would somehow double the requirements is absurd. Most of the processing power and memory is most likely used up by huge amount of player data, match processing, updating the state of each player etc etc. 3d graphics is accelerated on every computer and texture memory requirements are several orders of magnitude lower for a management game 3d engine than opposed to an arcade game engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's me told lol, but it is nice to be proved wrong politely. I just assumed that a 3D highlight would require more graphically than a 2D highlight and so some peoples computers may struggle with it.

Similar to Chopper, my PC struggles with most games except FM, and I only ever play FM because if I was to play anything with 3D graphics it would be running in real time

[DaveRH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Switching to 3d shouldn't affect the processing since its already done in 3d. The engine should already know the state of each object in the game. All it has to do is expose this to the match display portion of the game which does the rendering. The match engine itself doesn't care weather the final result is in 2d or in 3d. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd add a big caveat onto this statement: the existing physics engine will not process information to anywhere near the degree that which would be required to get a good 3D representation going.

Think of all of the things that would need to be represented: deflections, spin on the ball, player collisions (in which you need to work out where the players actually hit each other and them provide the appropiate animation for each player) to name a few things off the top of my head.

The idea that a move to a full 3D engine isn't a massive overhaul of the existing engine is wrong - unless you are happy for the proposed new representation to do really wierd and unnatural things because the physics isn't up to scratch.

(Do not get me wrong - I'd love for a good 3D engine to be incorporated into the game. It's just that it strikes me as a huge undertaking for something which is essentially cosmetic.)

[jakobx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaveRH:

I'd add a big caveat onto this statement: the existing physics engine will not process information to anywhere near the degree that which would be required to get a good 3D representation going. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since we dont know much (if anything) about it i have to agree with you here. We assume it processes the match in 3d space and we know its unbelievably CPU intensive which leads us to believe that it already does a lot. On the other hand it might just be badly coded. I concede that it would a nightmare to realistically calculate every deflection, but i dont think the game needs to do everything. If you look at the games such as fifa and PES its obvious that they dont calculate everything and use a lot of approximations to give us IMO a fairly good representation of player movements. I am assuming the match engine already calculates with enough precision that would enable us to have PES or FIFA like player movements, but as i said i might be completely worng. Still i think a 3d pitch would be a step forward.

[leeturner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd:

ive been reading what people think about 3d match engine being implemented in fm

at first i thought people were just being difficult

and saying they dont want it just for the sake of it

but more and more

it seems that people keeping on saying they dont want it

because of stuff like

'its gonna be too buggy'

'they want it to be perfect first'

'si cant even get a 2d engine right'

etc

i think its quite weird that people have no faith in SI for creating a 3d match engine

after they have created such a good game...

any replies??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are reffering to a minority. The "people" at the end of the day are happy with the game, because they wouldn't sell as much as they do.

I have probably seen 5 threads that give warranted, constructive criticism about the match engine.

At the end of the day, count the seperate users that are complaining about the match engine. Count the number of copies sold.

I think you will find it is a minority

[arsenal_2111]

I think that if SI did make a 3D match engine, they could be breaking the law.

SI dont have rights to display player pictures from many leagues(Icluding EPL), and making fake players would be breaking the law.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense, but basically i think SI would be breaking the law.

[Synergy6]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leeturner:

You are reffering to a minority. The "people" at the end of the day are happy with the game, because they wouldn't sell as much as they do.

I have probably seen 5 threads that give warranted, constructive criticism about the match engine.

At the end of the day, count the seperate users that are complaining about the match engine. Count the number of copies sold.

I think you will find it is a minority </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a logical fallacy. Only a tiny percentage of FM users write on this forum. By your logic, we should ignore everything here, because we aren't the majority of FM users. The fact is, if someone is riled enough to write about an issue here, there are probably 10 or 100 other FM users who broadly agree, but don't feel strongly enough to find these forums and make a post. The BBC, for example, treats direct lettersas if they are from 1000 people, as 99.9% of humans are lazy buggers.

[Neji]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arsenal_2111:

I think that if SI did make a 3D match engine, they could be breaking the law.

SI dont have rights to display player pictures from many leagues(Icluding EPL), and making fake players would be breaking the law.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense, but basically i think SI would be breaking the law. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Konami doesnt hold licenses for all the players they put in the game.

[disasterd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arsenal_2111:

I think that if SI did make a 3D match engine, they could be breaking the law.

SI dont have rights to display player pictures from many leagues(Icluding EPL), and making fake players would be breaking the law.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense, but basically i think SI would be breaking the law. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im not asking for a perfect match engine

i just want to be able to see certain moves that happen in real life on the game.

for instance seeing skilful people actually do step overs, seeing bicycle kicks etc.

if you look up a few posts someone posted a link to an image where you can see arms legs and heads

that is the kind of thing i am looking for

[Dave C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arsenal_2111:

I think that if SI did make a 3D match engine, they could be breaking the law.

SI dont have rights to display player pictures from many leagues(Icluding EPL), and making fake players would be breaking the law.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense, but basically i think SI would be breaking the law. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Konami doesnt hold licenses for all the players they put in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they have to use fake names for many players and clubs.

[Dave C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arsenal_2111:

I think that if SI did make a 3D match engine, they could be breaking the law.

SI dont have rights to display player pictures from many leagues(Icluding EPL), and making fake players would be breaking the law.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense, but basically i think SI would be breaking the law. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im not asking for a perfect match engine

i just want to be able to see certain moves that happen in real life on the game.

for instance seeing skilful people actually do step overs, seeing bicycle kicks etc.

if you look up a few posts someone posted a link to an image where you can see arms legs and heads

that is the kind of thing i am looking for </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A large number of people though, told they are getting such a feature, will expect likenesses.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

also i do like to move through the match at quite a high speed.

with blobs it looks ok.

if SI could make it so that little people moving around at benny hill speeds looked OK then that's good but i think it would look strange. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but u are not being forced to go through the match at high speeds.

if it looks strange you could just watch it at 'normal' speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont want to watch it at 'normal speed' though. and since we have the option of going at a fast speed then it needs to be implemented well at all speeds.

i have no probelms with a 3d view as long as we dont lose out on the usability and functionality of the match engine view.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Iwan Owen:

Sorry, that link doesn`t seem to work, and i`m unable to edit my post. One of these following links should hopefully work:

DexterMorgan72/1159379155.jpg" border="0" alt="sensible soccer"></a>

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn123/DexterMorgan72/1159379155.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it would be good to be able to tell if it was a flying header or a half volley or what ever.

but in my mind we really do need to be able to see as much of the pitch in one go as possible for tactical reasons.

after all if we can only see alittle bit of the pitch at anyone time then how do we know if our defense was out of position or whether it was a good defence splitting pass that meant the oppo scored?

it then follows, how do we know whether to have a go at them,make a substitution fine them etc if we dont know?

it would limit our ability to manage our team from what we see in the match view.

[Iwan Owen]

I can`t speak for others, but on my computer that image only takes up a quarter of the screen and manages to show roughly one third of the whole pitch. Keeping this in mind, i think it would be easy to scale down the image slightly so that 75-80% of the pitch is in view at any given time, which should surely be enough. Of course, i`m just speculating here, and i don`t know exactly how much effort it would actually take to change the match engine in this way.

Another advantage to this kind of view is, as you can see, the players are small enough that you needn`t worry about physical features such as size and facial features, and simply the style and colour of the player`s hair would be enough to tell most players apart.

I`m just throwing these ideas out there though and havent really thought them through that much. I just reckon it looks like an improvement without being drastically different from what we have now, and it would ease frustrations as you could see when your player tries to make a sliding tackle and misses, for example, instead of it looking like he`s just suddenly sttod still and let the player run on as it does sometimes now.

[n0va]

I used to be a huge fan of the LMA Manager Series. I liked that 3D engine.

I think a standard 3D match engine like what CM has now would be a good move but its not going to happen any time soon.

At the end of the day people have to realise that it will happen one day its just a matter of time as the 2D eta has now almost went completely extinct.

[r0x0r]

I don't want a 3d engine because i HAVE faith in SI.

A perfect 3d engine would obviously be a step up for the game. Therefore, if SI could produce it, they would.

I have faith that SI will move to 3d when THEY are ready, when the technology is ready, and when it's in the game's best interest.

You have faith in your own ideas, and overconfidence in SI. If the guys at SI don't feel they can make 3d yet, they can't make 3d ye. Simple as that.

[trainspotter]

If by 3D people mean an essentially isometric view (ala CM08) with elongated blobs then I'd imagine SI could implement that fairly easily. From my experience of playing CM08 though this view doesn't actually offer much at all to the experience.

If by 3D people mean a PES/FIFA representation of the game then I'm afraid that is years and YEARS away, if ever. Even if EA went bonkers and decided to donate their FIFA engine to SI the more complex FM engine would still be doing more things that the FIFA engine could possibly represent.

[Mr_Pink]

Yes Disasterd and a few others above.

Graphics like Sencible Soccer or Kick Off,

I dont want state of the art grahics like Fifa just want to be able to see a pair of legs, some haircolour, skincolour etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJJgfTN7UKo

Then i might upgrade my fm2007 (which i love)

[anagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr_Pink:

Yes Disasterd and a few others above.

Graphics like Sencible Soccer or Kick Off,

I dont want state of the art grahics like Fifa just want to be able to see a pair of legs, some haircolour, skincolour etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJJgfTN7UKo

Then i might upgrade my fm2007 (which i love) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If SI did something like add graphics similar to Kick Off or Sensible Soccer then I would just scream. They look tacky and there is no reason why SI need resort to adding something so minimalistic to a modern PC game just so that a handful of people can have a flashier game.

If they ever update the match display then I'd prefer they go the whole hog and make something very nice looking. If that takes another 5 to 10 years then who cares because it's not the most important of necessary thing for FM to have.

There's a lot more that can make FM a better game than 3D graphics.

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

There's a lot more that can make FM a better game than 3D graphics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sentance perfectly sums up how I feel about the whole 3D match engine argument.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

Learn to read the first post on a page. Like stated, updating to a basic 3D isometric view would do nothing to the gameplay or the match engine. Therefore, all your arguments are basically worthless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly the most ridiculous statement I've seen for a long time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just out of curiosity Chop, assuming you are purely referring to the bolded part, what is it about the statement you find ridiculous?

Certainly I would be surprised, nay shocked, if the way that the match was visualised had any effect on the results of the match-engine itself.

[County Kenny]

I don't really see what a 3D engine would add to the game. Pre-match engine I'd be playing and thinking "I wish I could see how the match is actually being played", now I have the match engine I've never once thought "I wish I could see this in detailed 3D". Plus, think of all the players SI would lose if they upped the system reqs that dramatically.

As for having no faith in SI, I think that's very harsh. I'll admit that I'm not happy with how the match engine has evolved, but SI are constantly working on it and it's head and shoulders above the competition.

Personally I thought that FM2005 had the best match engine. Games looked very natural and you actually felt as if the match was being played second by second. Since then I've felt more and more like the result is generated beforehand and then the match engine fabricates a game to fit the result. So many of the engine's traits look plain wrong: your keeper condeding ridiculously soft goals while his opposite number plays as if he's in Bullet Time, every loose ball going directly to an opponent, 9 out of 10 headers scored from a corner being disallowed etc etc.

[TeeWee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr_Pink:

Yes Disasterd and a few others above.

Graphics like Sencible Soccer or Kick Off,

I dont want state of the art grahics like Fifa just want to be able to see a pair of legs, some haircolour, skincolour etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJJgfTN7UKo

Then i might upgrade my fm2007 (which i love) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If SI did something like add graphics similar to Kick Off or Sensible Soccer then I would just scream. They look tacky and there is no reason why SI need resort to adding something so minimalistic to a modern PC game just so that a handful of people can have a flashier game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your assumption is wrong; not everybody who wants a more detailed representation than the current overhead blobs want it because they want a flashier game (mind you, 3D graphics do, in general, give a game better shelf space in a store). The fact is, it is much, much easier understand what's happening when you see the visual representation actually make a tackle and miss, instead of just seeing your blob stand still and trying to piece it together through the commentary lines. Graphical information is in many cases much easier to process than textual information. Good UI design is not about flashier graphics, it's about more functional graphics.

I agree with all of you who claim that graphics are secondary and should be functional first and foremost. I just happen to disagree with people who claim that additions to the graphical rendering are non-functional. I'm just trying to see if there's a graphical representation that fulfills the functional needs better than the current one. That's why I don't see a PES-style graphical engine as necessary (faces etc aren't functional), but an overhead style like KickOff (not the same, but in similar style) as a useful upgrade precisely because it might just add enough detail to see at a glance the basic actions (e.g. sliding tackle, header, etc) which you just can't see right now and have to guess at.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There's a lot more that can make FM a better game than 3D graphics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed; there may very well be things that are more important than improved graphical representation, but it's not as low on my list as it would be on yours I'd guess.