Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 (Very Fluid)

This was something you replied to ages ago, and i meant to come back and ask about it, but never got round to it hope you dont mind a delayed question!

If you use the "rest day before" and "rest day after" training, and given that your a club clearly going all the way in Europe, do you not find that your players will basically never train? Given that you dont train on the day of a match, a typical week would be:

Sat - Game / No training

Sun - Day after / No training

Mon - Training

Tues - Day before / no training

Wed - Game / No training

Thurs - Day after / No training

Fri - Day before / No training

So in a week with a midweek fixture, of which there will be quite a lot i assume, your players on train for 1 day? Does that not have any impact for you on development, or are they so developed as players that it matters little, plus your tactic is totally familiar etc?

My suggestion is just use rest after match option. If one of your players needs more rest just give him one on an individual basis. FYI, pay attention to the natural fitness attribute - that's the one that is responsible for speedy recovery in game condition from match to match.

I'm actually very curious if Roy Hodgson IRL will have the guts to play Vardy and Kane together as striker partnership for England in this Euro. I believe they have the potential to win it all if he does and gets the right kind of balance behind them in terms of midfield. Sadly he already made the mistake not to take Drinkwater who could've been very useful.

I'm actually very curious if Roy Hodgson IRL will have the guts to play Vardy and Kane together as striker partnership for England in this Euro. I believe they have the potential to win it all if he does and gets the right kind of balance behind them in terms of midfield. Sadly he already made the mistake not to take Drinkwater who could've been very useful.

Agreed - although possibly off topic...

Ozil -I notice your down to 4 TI's in your 3 Lions tactics... care to divulge (although I'll guess at Higher Tempo, D-line & Pressing + Tighter Marking, leaving everything else down to the players or in game adjustments.)

Yep, spot on.

where is tactic ???

What are the TIs and PIs on those tactics Ozil?

3 posts up

I have a couple of questions as I would just like to get an understanding of some of the changes you make.

How did you find the interplay between the strike partnership in the England save? I switched to it for a match and they seemed to perform well but have now fizzled out. Did you give your strikers any specific instructions? With the AF already moving into Channels, I suspect you would not want the Complete forward doing the same.

Additionally on your England diamond, did you find yourself exposed with 2 WBa? Again I have a similar back four with a diamond albeit with a DM and the AM role at Cm. I suspect my lack of success is due to the quality of my squad and the lack of pace for some of my defenders, however I am intent on recreating the philosophy. As I have a player in the DM slot a much higher line is probably overkill, I have pushed it down to slightly higher and have considered just having a normal defensive line whilst maintaining the pressing. What woudl you do if you were trying to create a similar system with a player at DM?

Either will work. Personally, I prefer to keep the band of 3 for pressing purposes. Also, I observe that a DM makes a system less compact (drops defensive line) so you'll notice, I rarely use one.

The diamond is always going to be sub-optimal due to the lack of cover on the flanks but obviously it's a trade off as you gain an extra man in the middle. With England, Kane and Vardy have excellent work rate so they did a good job leading the press. Also - at international level - I don't think I faced a country with two top-class attacking fullbacks. The AI tends to be more conservative with the fullbacks as well. My observation was that it is a weakness, but one you can live with.

Either will work. Personally, I prefer to keep the band of 3 for pressing purposes. Also, I observe that a DM makes a system less compact (drops defensive line) so you'll notice, I rarely use one.

.

As the DM drops the defensive line would you suggest maintaining the Much Higher Defensive line? I noticed in your Ajax thread you used either a DLPd or a DMs in the position. I would be interested if you remember which worked better.

I play a much higher line anyway. With / without a DM. Overall, I prefer the way the a defensive MC interacts with the rest of the team.

I play a much higher line anyway. With / without a DM. Overall, I prefer the way the a defensive MC interacts with the rest of the team.

The only reason I ask specifically about the DM is because I am doing the tactical challenge and can't change the position. Thanks for your help!

OK so a couple of people have asked me about how I'd approach tactics for a lower league side, so I decided to put together a quick post.

I chose to put this in the Sacchi thread, as I believe the Sacchi system is the most applicable to a lower league club - how many lower league sides have the personnel to get a back 3 going or play a rapid attacking style?

So.. I picked a random club.

Club Arbroath

League Scottish League Two

Status Semi Professional

Reputation 1 star

Finances OK

Training and Youth Facilities Basic

Media Prediction 6th out of 10

Perfect.

Building Blocks

Starting out, my priorities are very short term. I'm on a 1-year contract, so my only real priority is to perform well enough to get an extension.

My Assistant Manager is as good as I can get at the moment, so I offer him a 2-year contract. I have no scouts, but am allowed 2 so I instantly sign the best at judging Potential and the best all-rounder available then start scouting Scotland.

Starting Squad

• OK, not great Goalkeeper.
  
• One decent Centre-Back
  
• Decent fullbacks
  
• Poor central midfielders
  
• One good, one decent wide player.
  
• Good attack - one good supporting striker, one quick striker (who can also play wide) and one target man.
  

Looking at the team comparison page, 8-10 is going to be a decent attribute, 12 or above is good.

The Transfer Market

My scouts quickly identified some good solutions to my problems. Basically brought in a new 'spine' of a team. 4 signings, for a combined £8,000.

Goalkeeper - William Muir, free

Central Defender - Kerr Young, free

Central Midfield - Kieran Miller, £8k and Ally McKerracher, free

As before, the approach is to look for players with:

• Technical Aptitude
  
• Intelligence
  
• Work Ethic
  

In the lower leagues, you're obviously not going to find the same quality of player but as long as they are relatively strong on this areas, you'll be fine.

My Squad

Comparison with the rest of the League

Strengths

• We are the hardest working in the league.
  
• We are 2nd fittest.
  
• Our first touch, vision, decisions and team work are all very good.
  
• Our defence is quick, and good on the ball.
  

Weaknesses

• We're weak and poor in the air.
  
• Our technique and passing let down our overall intelligence.
  

Tactics

I've gone for a very simple 4-4-2. Flexible and standard because the players movement, intelligence or technical ability aren't up to fluid or very fluid. My starting mentality is Standard but I will use Attack regularly. Standard offers more variation and balance. Attack allows me to take advantage of width and my target man.

Off the ball, we will press heavily and take advantage of our work rate and stamina. Also a high line allows us to mitigate our lack of physicality in defence and take advantage of our pace.

With the ball, we're balanced. We have width on both flanks, and intelligent central midfielders. Up front we have a physical target man and a hard working, intelligent supporting striker. We can make our approach more aggressive, changing mentality.

Positive start..

Forfar are local rivals, from the league above. As you can see we dominated them and won comfortably.

Longer-term

Once I have a longer contract and the faith of the board, my priorities will be.

• Improving the personality of the squad - prioritizing Determination, Work Rate and Professionalism.
  
• Progress through the Scottish leagues and gain Professional status.
  
• Improve youth and training facilities and establish a production line, using the first team squad as mentors.
  
• Continually improve the quality of the staff - building up to an Assistant Manager, Chief Scout, Head of Youth Development and Director of Football all supporting me in handling their respective areas.
  

Nice looking tactic instructions. I will try it and see how it goes. There is another look into the 442 with good results. Check out this video Guide.

Mate, I was watching my team and I feel like my DLP is in shackles, when in Defend duty. I get the idea of having some type of pivot in the formation, but when playing very fluid he has the mentality of the central defenders. He makes an extra pass to the wing or the central defender just because I'm restricting him. Do you see the same thing with your players or maybe I'm using the wrong type of player in the slot?

Hi Ozil, I havent got out and out wingers so what do you think of having two WM (A)s with one set like an IF? On that side I'm thinking of using WB (S). WM (A) and WB (A) on the other side, like you have. Or would you think using WB (A) on both. I'm just trying to find balance and thinking that it's too aggressive with the fullbacks, but want width of course.

Seems to work "quite well":

It's not even fluent yet, already putting in some great performances. Hadn't it been for the individual class of Neymar/Messi/Suarez, it would have been an even worse day for Barca. We were really suffocating their midfield.

Atletico's squad is nearly tailormade for this tactic, with Saúl as an outstanding DLP(d) (runs with ball helps, as he really carries it from defence to midfield) and Koke as the WM(a). Brilliant stuff.

Ozil for the tactic above for Abroaoth please could you run through any PI's or isn't there any?

Hi O-zil to the Arsenal!,

I reviewed your postings regarding adaptation to the system to suit both England and Arbroath and couldn't see which exact Team Instructions and Player Instructions you'd assigned.

Could you please elaborate on the selections and reasoning to give us a fuller idea of what goes into your decision-making when making alterations for squads of differing strengths and abilities?

I can see some of your line of thinking through the role/duties and mentality/shape (and why they were selected) but these additional details and, in particular, the thought process behind it (not just what was chosen, but what was left out and why) would also be really helpful and insightful!

Thanks!

For some reason my posts are not appearing, due to them needing approval all the time. I feel this discourages new members from getting involved.

O-zil to the Arsenal!, could you please elaborate on the Team Instructions and Player Instructions used in the 4-4-2's with England and Arbroath?

I'd be interested to know the thought process behind it, i.e. when altering a base tactic, why did you keep what you did, what were the reasons for omitting certain instructions, and which new settings were chosen to complement the different approach.

A further insight into this would be helpful, I think, for anyone looking to alter a base tactic, and not just the ones you've posted.

Thanks, and keep up the great work!!

P.S. I'd love for you to try your hand at a Guardiola Bayern Munich tactic - given the flexibility in his systems, and ability to seamlessly change in-game, I think this would be the ultimate challenge!

I love these ideas Ozil, I might give it a whirl in FMT to see how it plays, had the game 3 days now and yet to start a proper save because of struggling with tactics

Could I ask what type of player you play on the right of centre midfield?

I've just taken over Dortmund in the 2nd season after they barely make Europa League. I've sold Gundogan who was my first choice for that position for massive money so I'm looking for a replacement.

I'm guessing a Box to Box Midfielders + Key stats from your initial post with positioning not as important but still fairly high?

Download tactic?

Tactic?????

Tactic?????

It's not a download and there's enough details for you to re-create it in the opening posts.

OK so a couple of people have asked me about how I'd approach tactics for a lower league side, so I decided to put together a quick post.

I chose to put this in the Sacchi thread, as I believe the Sacchi system is the most applicable to a lower league club - how many lower league sides have the personnel to get a back 3 going or play a rapid attacking style?

So.. I picked a random club.

Club Arbroath

League Scottish League Two

Status Semi Professional

Reputation 1 star

Finances OK

Training and Youth Facilities Basic

Media Prediction 6th out of 10

Perfect.

Building Blocks

Starting out, my priorities are very short term. I'm on a 1-year contract, so my only real priority is to perform well enough to get an extension.

My Assistant Manager is as good as I can get at the moment, so I offer him a 2-year contract. I have no scouts, but am allowed 2 so I instantly sign the best at judging Potential and the best all-rounder available then start scouting Scotland.

Starting Squad

• OK, not great Goalkeeper.
  
• One decent Centre-Back
  
• Decent fullbacks
  
• Poor central midfielders
  
• One good, one decent wide player.
  
• Good attack - one good supporting striker, one quick striker (who can also play wide) and one target man.
  

Looking at the team comparison page, 8-10 is going to be a decent attribute, 12 or above is good.

The Transfer Market

My scouts quickly identified some good solutions to my problems. Basically brought in a new 'spine' of a team. 4 signings, for a combined £8,000.

Goalkeeper - William Muir, free

Central Defender - Kerr Young, free

Central Midfield - Kieran Miller, £8k and Ally McKerracher, free

As before, the approach is to look for players with:

• Technical Aptitude
  
• Intelligence
  
• Work Ethic
  

In the lower leagues, you're obviously not going to find the same quality of player but as long as they are relatively strong on this areas, you'll be fine.

My Squad

Comparison with the rest of the League

Strengths

• We are the hardest working in the league.
  
• We are 2nd fittest.
  
• Our first touch, vision, decisions and team work are all very good.
  
• Our defence is quick, and good on the ball.
  

Weaknesses

• We're weak and poor in the air.
  
• Our technique and passing let down our overall intelligence.
  

Tactics

I've gone for a very simple 4-4-2. Flexible and standard because the players movement, intelligence or technical ability aren't up to fluid or very fluid. My starting mentality is Standard but I will use Attack regularly. Standard offers more variation and balance. Attack allows me to take advantage of width and my target man.

Off the ball, we will press heavily and take advantage of our work rate and stamina. Also a high line allows us to mitigate our lack of physicality in defence and take advantage of our pace.

With the ball, we're balanced. We have width on both flanks, and intelligent central midfielders. Up front we have a physical target man and a hard working, intelligent supporting striker. We can make our approach more aggressive, changing mentality.

Positive start..

Forfar are local rivals, from the league above. As you can see we dominated them and won comfortably.

Longer-term

Once I have a longer contract and the faith of the board, my priorities will be.

• Improving the personality of the squad - prioritizing Determination, Work Rate and Professionalism.
  
• Progress through the Scottish leagues and gain Professional status.
  
• Improve youth and training facilities and establish a production line, using the first team squad as mentors.
  
• Continually improve the quality of the staff - building up to an Assistant Manager, Chief Scout, Head of Youth Development and Director of Football all supporting me in handling their respective areas.
  

Really enjoyed this part of the thread. I would be very interested if you have time if you could progress this further as a separate topic.

@Özil - Seems like a very interesting tactic! Can you post a screenshot of your players match / goal / assist statistics?

Thanks!

Özil, if you were playing against the top sides away from home, did you ever change mentality to counter? My experience with Chelsea is that if I don't play with a lower mentality they often seem to score a few against me.

Great thread Özil!

Hi Özil, what are these four team instructions you use (as per screenshot) with Arbroath?

Thanks

mate, what is rijkaard's role?? is DLP or CM(s) ?? i saw milan vs real madrid, donadoni plays sometimes go to central midfield.

Hi Ozil. Thank you for the fantastic thread, it's really gotten me thinking. I do have a question though.

I was wondering why you chose to go with a regular GK(d) instead of an SK?

After a small sample size with my own AC Milan team, I have found a lot of goals are happening from balls over the top beating the offside trap. With pressing and tight marking such a big part of this tactic, I was wondering what the downside would be of using an SK?

Thanks in advance.

-Filippo

Hi Özil, what are these four team instructions you use (as per screenshot) with Arbroath?

Thanks

Yes please!?!

Ozil, firstly thank you for making me enjoy FM again. I have used this tactic for my Man Utd side and we've just clinched the PL title.

One question though - do you make any specific changes away from home? I find that my away form is often hit and miss, sometimes I can leave the mentality as balanced and we dominate, other times I need to change it to defensive or drop my wing back to a full back (s) and my wide midfielder and winger to support also.

My away form towards the back end of the season in particular has been pretty poor, we just can't seem to score as many as we were and in the last 3 months (Feb to early May) we have had 7 0-0 draws. I fear that might be due to a tiring squad or poor man management on my part - both of which I have never really been good at controlling - but if you have any tips on facing opposition on their own turf or avoiding the end of season slump in form I would be very appreciative.

On 7/18/2016 at 14:54, sirmikey said:

Ozil, firstly thank you for making me enjoy FM again. I have used this tactic for my Man Utd side and we've just clinched the PL title.

One question though - do you make any specific changes away from home? I find that my away form is often hit and miss, sometimes I can leave the mentality as balanced and we dominate, other times I need to change it to defensive or drop my wing back to a full back (s) and my wide midfielder and winger to support also.

My away form towards the back end of the season in particular has been pretty poor, we just can't seem to score as many as we were and in the last 3 months (Feb to early May) we have had 7 0-0 draws. I fear that might be due to a tiring squad or poor man management on my part - both of which I have never really been good at controlling - but if you have any tips on facing opposition on their own turf or avoiding the end of season slump in form I would be very appreciative.

Congratulations on the success and apologies for the delayed response. I have spent the past 3 months working in Ecuador with very limited internet access / time.

I rarely make major changes solely based on being away from home. Occasionally, I'll make a more conservative team selection i.e playing more conservative players in midfield but certainly nothing drastic.

Regarding late-season form I'd suggest taking a look at your squad management. Often, if I have that wrong then that will lead to bad form at the close of the season. Giving players too much game time means they're drained going into the close of the season whilst not giving them enough means they're unhappy / unfit. You often see the effects of either of these in the close of the season.

Ozil you are master  (season 4)

thanks

Congrats, pal 

Hey OTTA,

I've been using the high press within a 4-4-2 setup and I'm always noticing that defensively my team struggles. Routinely I see myself having 20/30 shots and drawing/losing to teams who have had less shots than I have fingers on one hand.

I notice it's from counter attacks that I get pummeled. In your own experiences using this system do you find that this is solely be an issue with the speed of my back line? (Average speed of around 13/14 points) or the midfield/attack not being aggressive enough in closing down? I watch my games extensively but FM is such a complex game I'm not great at diagnosing issues right off the bat compared to a lot of people on here.

For me, intelligent and quick defenders are crucial. My Milan team was easily the strongest defence I have ever had in FM.

That said, it's aggressive and a high line so having the right personnel is crucial. For example, I wouldn't dream of this with Arsenal and the likes of Per Mertesacker.

Precisely. I had Robert Huth, mainly because he's great in the air and a superb 'stopper', but couldn't use him in this system. I brought in Calum Chambers who is more of a BPD but pretty quick and much more suitable. If I come up against a really quick forward line, I still have to drop the d-line sometimes.

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

For me, intelligent and quick defenders are crucial. My Milan team was easily the strongest defence I have ever had in FM.

That said, it's aggressive and a high line so having the right personnel is crucial. For example, I wouldn't dream of this with Arsenal and the likes of Per Mertesacker.

Ozil if you had to play the set up with Arsenal what type of players would you looking for especially in defence.  I know Mertesacker is not suitable I think Kos would be fine. Could I ask of it the entire Arsenal Team is unsuitable for this set up or is it the Arsenal defence only. 

I'd be investing heavily in an intelligent centre back and a more complete holding midfield player.

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I'd be investing heavily in an intelligent centre back and a more complete holding midfield player.

Do you have any suggestions on the type of players I need to make this work

<slow clap>

Read through this and your other threads as you've posted them, Ozil, and been intrigued by the ideas. But finally decided to try to apply them. Went with a 4-1-4-1 DM formation so it was closest to this approach. In the past when I've tried to use a high press system, it wasn't using Very Fluid and I used a more attacking shape. But in the first season with Lokomotiv Moscow, this has been fantastic. I don't have ideal players, and part of why I went with the 4-1-4-1 was because my central defenders are bit slower. I'm closing in on the title and its only mid-March. Just beat #2 Zenit away 3-1 in a match they "dominated" yet I felt like my side had control of things the entire time, and they only scored on a late consolation goal despite being a better quality side. The goal I scored was a counter that literally had me cheering at the screen. The player I have been using at DLP was almost sold at the start of the season because despite being my best attacking player, he is very one-dimensional and has limited mental attributes.... yet he's average over 8.00 and has been a beast.

I'm quite torn between trying this with another club with less talent (Vitesse at some point, but FK Ural is the temping one)  or continuing on with this game into the second season and beyond, to see what kind of dynasty I can build in Moscow.

I love concept threads like this and Cleon's work, as it gives us ideas to work with but (hopefully) not simply copy. Thanks again for this and the other threads, Ozil.

on the first page on the current view of attributes etc ive tried replicating the attribute view but how do I save this once copied ??? done it 3 times now and when I click back the atts aren't there?? how do I save this??

ive tried customising it too match and when I go back they've all disappeared again help!!!

11 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

<slow clap>

Read through this and your other threads as you've posted them, Ozil, and been intrigued by the ideas. But finally decided to try to apply them. Went with a 4-1-4-1 DM formation so it was closest to this approach. In the past when I've tried to use a high press system, it wasn't using Very Fluid and I used a more attacking shape. But in the first season with Lokomotiv Moscow, this has been fantastic. I don't have ideal players, and part of why I went with the 4-1-4-1 was because my central defenders are bit slower. I'm closing in on the title and its only mid-March. Just beat #2 Zenit away 3-1 in a match they "dominated" yet I felt like my side had control of things the entire time, and they only scored on a late consolation goal despite being a better quality side. The goal I scored was a counter that literally had me cheering at the screen. The player I have been using at DLP was almost sold at the start of the season because despite being my best attacking player, he is very one-dimensional and has limited mental attributes.... yet he's average over 8.00 and has been a beast.

I'm quite torn between trying this with another club with less talent (Vitesse at some point, but FK Ural is the temping one)  or continuing on with this game into the second season and beyond, to see what kind of dynasty I can build in Moscow.

I love concept threads like this and Cleon's work, as it gives us ideas to work with but (hopefully) not simply copy. Thanks again for this and the other threads, Ozil.

 

Fantastic. Great work. Yo've hit the nail bang on the head there with that last paragraph.

1 hour ago, glynnbob said:

on the first page on the current view of attributes etc ive tried replicating the attribute view but how do I save this once copied ??? done it 3 times now and when I click back the atts aren't there?? how do I save this??

There's an option to export the customised view. Click that, save it as something you'll remember and you'll be able to import it for any game you play or modify for different approaches.

12 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

<slow clap>

Read through this and your other threads as you've posted them, Ozil, and been intrigued by the ideas. But finally decided to try to apply them. Went with a 4-1-4-1 DM formation so it was closest to this approach. In the past when I've tried to use a high press system, it wasn't using Very Fluid and I used a more attacking shape. But in the first season with Lokomotiv Moscow, this has been fantastic. I don't have ideal players, and part of why I went with the 4-1-4-1 was because my central defenders are bit slower. I'm closing in on the title and its only mid-March. Just beat #2 Zenit away 3-1 in a match they "dominated" yet I felt like my side had control of things the entire time, and they only scored on a late consolation goal despite being a better quality side. The goal I scored was a counter that literally had me cheering at the screen. The player I have been using at DLP was almost sold at the start of the season because despite being my best attacking player, he is very one-dimensional and has limited mental attributes.... yet he's average over 8.00 and has been a beast.

I'm quite torn between trying this with another club with less talent (Vitesse at some point, but FK Ural is the temping one)  or continuing on with this game into the second season and beyond, to see what kind of dynasty I can build in Moscow.

I love concept threads like this and Cleon's work, as it gives us ideas to work with but (hopefully) not simply copy. Thanks again for this and the other threads, Ozil.

 

Would you like to share your roles and duties plus your T.I. and P.I? I am also thinking of a 4-1-4-1 and curious of your ideas. 

sorry ozil I meant once id added the attributes required I couldn't see the option to save it anywhere all that's available is move atts up/down or ok/cancel nowhere to save it sorry to keep asking I'm just determined to do this.!! cheers.

tried again and I have no idea perhaps you can do an idiot guide for me with pics if possible as now my team selection page is wholly inadequate!!!! sorry.