Would using Kimz tactics be cheating?

I'm thinking of using Kimz tactics from the 'Tactics and training forum', would it be cheating if I used that because someone else made it?

I think so yes.

I never use anyone elses tactics.

Originally posted by tomtuck01:

I think so yes.

I never use anyone elses tactics.

Just because you don't use other peoples tactics, it doesn't make it cheating for people who do.

I don't think its cheating, personally. There are so few tactics anyway, that most profitable tactics will be very similar to each other anyway.

I also use my own tactic, always designed around my team, but using someone elses tactic, is NOT cheating.

I never really venture into that forum, but as far as I can tell, there's basically no 'cheat' tactics or 'super tactics' anymore, in a way there once was. As such, it's not cheating. Lazy though

Personally have never used anyone else tactics, but do tend not to venture anything beyond 4-4-2, simply because it never works for me.

(Side note: Nep Do you use that one with no wingers and the full backs on massively long arrows much?)

Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

I think so yes.

I never use anyone elses tactics.

Just because you don't use other peoples tactics, it doesn't make it cheating for people who do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it was

its really up to you.

no one is going to say your achievemnets are nil and void because you looked on the tactics forum. but if you feel you have cheated it might take away some of the sense of achievement and ruin your game for you.

Who cares? Do whatever you need to to enjoy the game.

Originally posted by tomtuck01:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

I think so yes.

I never use anyone elses tactics.

Just because you don't use other peoples tactics, it doesn't make it cheating for people who do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it was </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You never said using others tactics was cheating? Hmmmm.... interesting, since you did say it.

Bermybhoy - I don't even remember that tactic. As stated, I build each tactic around the team I have. Sometimes I play 3-5-2, 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 5-3-2, and variations of each tactic. It really just depends on the individual skills of each player in each position.

I wondered when there might be a thread on this seeing as reading between the lines i dont think everybody agrees with this particular tactic.

Personally i agree with Ackter, enjoyment is the key but would like to clarify that.

I myself am not very good with tactics and if im honest not very patient either. Before trying Kimz i persevered with my own and some others from the forums with mixed success. But once i found KIMZ i was hooked. I also think that you do need to find exactly the right kind of players for this tactic to work which is fun in itself. Add to that teamtalks, press reports and buying and selling it still encompasses all the ingredients to feel that you are playing your part and not just one click and off we go to the champions league.

I have had lots of success with this tactic which FOR ME makes it enjoyable and am in awe of someone who takes the time and energy to not only post his tactic but provide 20 odd pages of support with updated versions.

Okay am stepping down from my box now........

Cheers

Si

There is no 'cheating' involved in downloading and using a different tactic. Each to their own.

Personally, I abhor the kimz tactic but can equally appreciate how creative the design is. As long as it helps you to enjoy FM, go for it.

Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

I think so yes.

I never use anyone elses tactics.

Just because you don't use other peoples tactics, it doesn't make it cheating for people who do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it was </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You never said using others tactics was cheating? Hmmmm.... interesting, since you did say it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, read what I said, your response, and then my response to your comment.............................

You implied that I had said just because I didnt use other peoples tactics it was cheating. Whereas I actually said I thought it was cheating, and as a side note, said that I didn't ever use other peoples tactics.

It's the same as using what people call the "Corner Cheat" even if it is a well known tactic for corners.

At the end of the day its up to you.

There many teams who don't work with Kimz tactic so it is not a cheat.

I think it is Yes and No as even copying is alos a form of cheating. Imaging copying someone else's answer in an examination hall? I think it is the same case here. You copy Kims tactic to win a title or survive (in the league).

The real question, though, would be Do you really want to use someone else Tactic?

I personally used and successed with it so felt good.

Originally posted by wwfan:

There is no 'cheating' involved in downloading and using a different tactic. Each to their own.

Personally, I abhor the kimz tactic but can equally appreciate how creative the design is. As long as it helps you to enjoy FM, go for it.

What do you abhor about it?

Originally posted by Jablome:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

There is no 'cheating' involved in downloading and using a different tactic. Each to their own.

Personally, I abhor the kimz tactic but can equally appreciate how creative the design is. As long as it helps you to enjoy FM, go for it.

What do you abhor about it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The arrows. The tactic is about breaking the engine rather than developing a genuinely realistic tactic that works. I personally think such tactics, and the predominance towards them, is one of the major issues with the current edition of FM. If people are constantly trying to make such weird tactics then there is no wonder match stats are all askew at times.

That is not to say I don't admire the creativity. I do. Such tactics are also fantastic in Beta testing as they illustrate exactly where engine holes are. Coming to terms with the kimz tactic was a major issue in FML testing. Imagine facing such a tactic and how you would try to counter it? Any ideas? So many people were using it and similarly weird systems that playing FML was like a lottery in earlier engines. If you were trying to play something akin to a realistic formation you had to spend all your time specific marking players using crazy arrows to patch engine holes that kimz exploited and standard systems couldn't cope with. It also didn't help that in FML you couldn't see oppositional arrows, so kimz looked like something it wasn't. I hated FML in its earlier engine incarnations because it was nothing like real football.

All fixed now, although it took a long, long time work out And yes, the FML engine is FAB!

The tactic is about breaking the engine rather than developing a genuinely realistic tactic that works.

That for me is the answer to the OPs question in a nutshell.

Downloading a tactic or training schedule in itself is not 'cheating' - it's like watching live games or TV to get inspiration.

It's the 'exploits' that take unrealistic advantage of the ME, be it whole tactics or issues like the corner exploit that I'd regard as 'cheating'.

The term 'cheating' itself tends to draw emotive responses, so let me just clarify that I really mean 'unrealistic exploit'.

Having said all that, as long as it's not an online game you're not bothering anyone else, so who's to judge?

If Kevin Keegan watched 6 Barcelona matches and adopted their tactics, or similar, to accomodate three STs (which he may well have done) he isn't cheating, is he?

I say go for it. For me it's just like getting advice from a fellow professional or staff member, or a bloke down the pub.

I never download tactics as such, but I have browsed for tips and the like. No tactic in FM is perfect and unbeatable because of the nature of the game, so anything you download will probably need tweaking to suit your players and opposition anyway. It'll be your own tactic before too long.

Of course it's not freakin' well cheating!

If you are playing the game yourself against entirely AI-managed teams then you can do whatever you like - it's only yourself who is being cheated if you do something that you feel is either giving you an unfair advantage or making you feel that your trophies don't feel deserved.

If you are playing a multi-player game then still there is no generic definition of "cheating", only what the players decide as the rules between themselves. If you start bragging in the forums about achievements people generally like to know if you have used any and every trick and skullduggery in the book to achieve your success for it to carry any meaning, but no-one ever knows whether someone is telling the truth on that front anyway so just do what you want to make sure that when you win a trophy it really does make you feel that sense of pride that winning a trophy should do.

Put it this way, is Roy Keane using any tactics he may have learnt from Alex Ferguson?

I don't think it's cheating - after all, in real life a manager can ask colleagues, friends etc for tactical advice. In game, we can't (as yet).

I played with LLM rules and did ok in FM05-07 with my own tactics but my FM08 teams have always struggled. Whatever I did, I was being dominated in midfield even when I packed it out with central midfielders. So, I conceded defeat and now use Manager_Ame's 4-4-2 which has eliminated that problem. It's not perfect - I would like to have solved the problem myself and I tried for months, spending most of my free time on it, but always failed.

The game is built for entertainment, after all, it's up to the individual how they use it.

using someone else's tactics can't be considered cheating. When Alf Ramsey changed tactics from 4-2-4 to 4-3-3 and people copied him, were hey cheating? ( i may have a few details wrong but you get my point)

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jablome:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

There is no 'cheating' involved in downloading and using a different tactic. Each to their own.

Personally, I abhor the kimz tactic but can equally appreciate how creative the design is. As long as it helps you to enjoy FM, go for it.

What do you abhor about it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The arrows. The tactic is about breaking the engine rather than developing a genuinely realistic tactic that works. I personally think such tactics, and the predominance towards them, is one of the major issues with the current edition of FM. If people are constantly trying to make such weird tactics then there is no wonder match stats are all askew at times.

That is not to say I don't admire the creativity. I do. Such tactics are also fantastic in Beta testing as they illustrate exactly where engine holes are. Coming to terms with the kimz tactic was a major issue in FML testing. Imagine facing such a tactic and how you would try to counter it? Any ideas? So many people were using it and similarly weird systems that playing FML was like a lottery in earlier engines. If you were trying to play something akin to a realistic formation you had to spend all your time specific marking players using crazy arrows to patch engine holes that kimz exploited and standard systems couldn't cope with. It also didn't help that in FML you couldn't see oppositional arrows, so kimz looked like something it wasn't. I hated FML in its earlier engine incarnations because it was nothing like real football.

All fixed now, although it took a long, long time work out And yes, the FML engine is FAB! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats like saying i abhor John Doe's tactic because he uses a TM, or he uses a 4-4-2, or he has Tempo set to four clicks from the left?

If its in the actual structure and coding of the game to use an extended long farrow on a FB, DC or whatever it is, how on Earth can a blokes tactics be criticised?

Does this mean that everyone who makes their own tactic should stick to certain confines of realism and since the whole tactic construction is not based on reality anyway, where does this leave us?

Surely the whole idea of being able to construct your own tactics and therefore the limits set by the game are all deemed acceptable, otherwise why is their even an option to select them in the first place?

As I said, I admire its creativity. Doesn't stop me thinking it shouldn't work. And I am looking at the playability of the game, which an extensive use of crazy arrows inhibits in a multi-player environment. Working out how to stop the kimz tactic has lead to great engine improvements. If people had to be either supportive or neutral towards totally unrealistic tactics (and make no mistake, kimz's tactic has no basis in reality at all), there would be no constructive criticism and ideas how to improve the engine so such tactics can't work and we would never progress. Unless you think a tactic like kimz should work in FM and makes it a better and more realistic simulation of football that it does?

And as for how and why the kimz tactic won't happen in future engines, listen to the newest GetSacked.net podcast.

At the end of the day it's your game so it's up to you how you want to play it. Lots of people use other peoples tactics so I don't think it's cheating myself but it's up to you.

no its not cheating because they have been uploaded or described for the point that others can use or be inspired by them. my tactics on fm08 took a LONG time to finally perfect. but got them right with wwfan's tactics and thereoms framework guide. and it really helps. in 6 seasons i have won 16 trophies and lowest points haul was 88 in my first season

Only when I have to. I usually use my own 4-4-2, but if I need a boost like my last game in the CL against CSKA Moscow, they scored a very lucky FK goal and parked the bus, so I used the 2-3-5 (can't remember who made it, I think a Thai dude) for the last 10 minutes and created some chances, but still lost. That was fun, it was like my own little 4-2-4.

About Kimz tactics though, if you're referring to the one where the two fullbacks push into CM and the two DM's go out wide, it's too good and makes the game way too easy, as well as a tad unrealistic. So no, I don't use Kimz anymore.

Hi Navie

No it is not cheating as using someone else's tactics does not guarantee success. I have downloaded lots of other tactics, i give them a trial run to compare with my own. I then find I still have to tweak others tactics to suit my squad, and you would probably have to do the same so in the end it is a combination of 2 peoples tactics, your own input plus the person who created the tactic.

Also you may find from time to time the game will adapt to a certain tactic if you use it on a regular basis so it is good from time to time to change. Of course this is just my opinion.

Originally posted by Navie:

I'm thinking of using Kimz tactics from the 'Tactics and training forum', would it be cheating if I used that because someone else made it?

Originally posted by wwfan:

And yes, the FML engine is FAB!

FAB darling

Seriously though, great to here such good things about the engine!

On 07 it was easy to make successful tactics. On 08, it's slightly harder, but I wouldn't use someone elses. Try making your own tactic, you'll get more enjoyment from it, and the fotball will be better.