Is it possible to get in average 55% ball possession?

[vandamme22]

The titel says everything:

I play with bayern and the board is expecting that my team play a possession based football. But after 8 games - I am really struggling with that.

At best I get 48 % ball possession

I use one split block pressing with 4 players.

any advices?

[TheInvisibleMan]

You could maybe ask your goalkeeper to distribute the ball short, specifically to your central defenders and/or full-backs. I would imagine that would help. I use this as well as the 'play out of defence' instruction.

I've also found that using the 'much shorter passing' instruction often gets me more possession and more control of the game.

[MadOnion]

Both your IF-A, DLF-A and CM-A have a "very attacking" mentality which are very forward thinking and will rush things in the final third.
Pay attention to each player's mentality and since you're playing with a Positive mentality, coupled with the counter approach the roles above, that could well be the reason why you aren't dominating possession.

[summatsupeer]

Why do you expect 55% with that system?

Its quite structured in that 2 of its 3 attack duties are in the front 3 and the 3rd is in CM.  Thats quite a bit of focus on attacking quickly in behind opponents especially on a Positive mentality.  Even though you've told them to play Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence and Work Ball Into Box, that isn't going to stop that IF-At dribbling at defenders and taking risks with the ball. He's probably not going to have many other options either since got a HB + DLP-Su and two FBs on support duty.  You've almost got a front 4 and back 6.

I'd expect more fluidity for a possession system, just slowing tempo or shortening passing isn't enough, the roles+duties need to be right for the style to or they risk just being isolated due to there lack of patience.

Your not being very aggressive out of possession either.  For a start the formation is on the defensive side with a DM+2CM setup so less players in position to pressure, especially against teams being defensive.  Yes you've told 4 players to press more urgently but there's a big space where opposition DM would be.

What would I change? My focus would be on the front 3, bringing them closer to the rest of the team and being more patient.  IF-Su rather than IF-At. IW-Su rather than W-Su to reduce the focus on crosses.  ST could be a game by game change, DLF-Su, DLF-At or P-At.  I don't mind the CM-At since he's risky but not told to try dribbling/throughballs often, could be a game by game change to a CM-Su or BBM-Su with Get Forward Often PI so he still is the 4th attacker.  DLP-Su could be a AP-Su, getting him further forward.  I'd also engage higher and have the front 5 press more urgently and/or use OI.  Not sure how well it fits what you want or the players you have though.

Edited March 6, 2020 by summatsupeer

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

any advices?

If possession is your primary goal, then these are the first 2 tweaks you should apply:

- remove the counter instruction

- change the striker's duty into support

Other potential tweaks include:

- change the BPD into a standard CD

- remove the split block and set the LOE to higher

- add the Prevent short GKD instruction

And as a last resort, you can even change Neuer into SK on defend duty.

[vandamme22]

thx for you advices:

Made some tweaks and played 3 games:

Ball possession is better: 2 home-games over 60 percent and one away game 52%

So my next problem are the results. This is my away statistic: its a joke:

Was never so bad in a fm game like this one. Play since championship manager.  I think my tactic is well balanced and as bayern I could play in this manner for away games against less strong teams. 

My central striker has only scenes If I pick up a penalty or set pieces then he will show up and score sometimes. There is no central play. They pass and pass until the box and den shoot - there is no penetration.

 

thx for help

[JEinchy]

There's no penetration because the only player in that set-up making runs and attacking the box is the Inside Forward (A).

The DLF (S) doesn't attack the box as often as you'd think once he pops the ball off to someone else, the MEZ (S) won't break into the penalty area as often as a CM (A) would, and the IW (S) will play more outside of the area unless he has specific PPMs that encourage him otherwise.

Your original set-up looked more dangerous to me. 

It's aggressive, but that doesn't mean it can't be tweaked to encourage more possession.

For example, telling your keeper to distribute the ball to his centre backs in transition. This ensures every attack starts off at the back, which will then bring the Half-Back and Deep-Lying Playmaker into play. If the opposition decides to press, you can thread the ball through them and spring those attack duty players into action. If they don't press, your talented ball-playing defenders and playmakers can bring the ball up the pitch.

Applying pressure to the ball helps, too. The more mistakes your opponents make in possession, the more of the ball you'll have. 

You don't need to sacrifice the majority of your attacking threat to achieve possession. 

I just completed a season playing a 3-4-3 with three strikers on attack duty, with a team predicted to get relegated. Our average possession was 56% - the highest in the whole division. So if it's possible with my gung-ho set-up, it's possible with yours.

Edited March 10, 2020 by JEinchy

[sporadicsmiles]

The question I have is why do you care about 55% possession? Why this number, why having possession? It is far more important to win. Is it just a personal goal you want to do to achieve the style you are aiming for? 

The problem, as you may have noted, is that you need penetration as much as you need possession. More so, in fact. Possession football is typically defensive football. The reason you want to keep the ball is that when you have the ball, only you can score. The more ball you have, the less time your opposition has to score. This was the foundation of tiki taka, and indeed remains the main defensive tactic of Guardiola (and the lack of a plan B here is why his teams are prone to be ripped apart by teams who are willing and able to perform fast counter attacks). 

So there are two aspects to consider. The first is the possession. You want to build up from the back. Which means plenty of support players in this area to work the ball up the pitch. Playing out of defence, shorter passing. A BPD is probably not the best thing in this system, as they can make more risky long passes, which goes against the philosophy you want to have here. As Bayern, most teams are gonna sit deep against you, so playing out from the back should not be an issue. However the down side is that they will be set in their defensive shape when you get the ball over half way. This means you need to work out how to break it down as well. 

This is the second aspect. How to actually make your possession turn into something incisive. To do this, you need to be able to drag the opposition out of shape. This means overloading areas of the pitch, for example. One thing Guardiola does is play with a lot of width. Not all the players, but his teams use the entire width of the pitch. This makes it harder for the entire opposition team to defend narrow. They have to commit players to defend the wide areas too. So I would always play wider with this kind of tactic. The next problem to overcome is you do not want lethargic passing, as you allow sides to recover their positions if you have drawn them out of shape. Higher tempo can do this. A high tempo short passing game to make the AI chase shadows.

Then you need people who are getting on the end of chances. Right now you have the IF(A) attacking the box and trying to get into space that the DLF(S) creates (although this kind of thing is quite limited in FM20 due to static attacking phase play from strikers). That is not really enough. Ideally you want one more player getting into the box here. You also want to have some players who have the licence to be more direct and make more risky passes outside of the scope of the passing game. This is what Iniesta and Xavi used to do. Keep the ball, but make incisive passes when needed and when the opportunity arose. You can use the playmaker, or the other midfielder for this. Finally, you need a pivot to turn player around. For example, if you are attacking down the left flank (where you create a natural overload), and you draw the AI that way. You want to be able to get the ball efficiently to the other flank,which is what you have made space. So you need a player who is available to get the ball and transfer it to the other side of the field. This is what Busquets does for Barcelona, and the DMC is ideal for this role. I question the use of a HB in a possession tactic like this, because they are often too deep to be an effective pivot. 

So in the end, I would suggest something like this.

Hopefully you can see the plan here, based on what I said.

Mentality; Positive

TIs:

Shorter Passing

Higher Tempo

Play out of defence

Wide

Overlap left (this will make the WB(S) more attacking, but not immediately so he can help in the buildup still).

Counter-Press

Higher line of defence

Higher line of engagement

PIs:

MCR: Take more risks (and maybe more direct passing), close down more, tighter marking

Front 3: Close down more, tighter marking.

[Robson 07]

I think you (and some responses you've had) somewhat 'hedge their bets'.  Talk of width, tempo and penetration.  You must find a balance whereby you don't use too much of any of those things.  They are not bad tools but if you want to play with possession as a philosophy they all have to be controlled.

Out of possession.  You must recover the ball.  Without it you don't have possession.  Personally I wouldn't be maniacal in this regard with some sort of suicidal full court press but nonetheless you do need to be proactive.  I would press, counter-press and play in a medium to high block.

In transition.  Build from the back.  The keeper is your sweeper and he distributes to the defenders.  I think you can still counter-attack, it may even help a slightly blunt attack.  Get the rest right anyway and it shouldn't be too detrimental.  Something else I'm going to add here is who are your defenders going to pass to? Think of bringing the ball out of defence and how it gets worked up the field through every level of your team.  This is where too much penetration (run from deep) can be detrimental.  If your wingers are positioned high (and yours are at AML/R) then how many mids do you want breaking forward?  As soon as they run off your defence is forced into a longer riskier pass.  This is so important to consider.

In possession.  I think the middling mentalities are your friend.  Positive is fine but it is at a level where I would want to be controlling (tweaking) things like passing, tempo, the types of crosses and time-wasting.  Others may have had success using Attack mentality but I have always suffered in possession terms above Positive.

Roles and duties.  Playmakers are magnets so a couple of those may help.  Roles like wingers may create space and perhaps even pin or draw opponents wide but they aren't a role great at keeping the ball.  They are hard coded to dribble and cross a lot.  Maybe a forward that can play with his back to goal will be useful, a role that can hold up the ball.

Leave it to you.  These are just thoughts and ideas to bounce off.  Oh and search the forum way back, versions ago, a lot of the better possession threads are older ones.

[summatsupeer]

7 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

thx for you advices:

Made some tweaks and played 3 games:

Ball possession is better: 2 home-games over 60 percent and one away game 52%

So my next problem are the results. This is my away statistic: its a joke:

Was never so bad in a fm game like this one. Play since championship manager.  I think my tactic is well balanced and as bayern I could play in this manner for away games against less strong teams. 

My central striker has only scenes If I pick up a penalty or set pieces then he will show up and score sometimes. There is no central play. They pass and pass until the box and den shoot - there is no penetration.

 

thx for help

I dont think the WB-At fits the style, rather than working the ball around like the rest of the team he wants to run and cross.  It's likely not going to be an early cross with defenders running at ther own goal but rather a packed organized box. 

Rather than have a IF-At and MEZ-Su trying forward runs in same area I'd look at swapping the CM pair around.  Rather than having the DL be attacking and penetrating wide runs have the MCL do it inside.  As mentioned in my previous post the role could change from game to game.  I think MEZ and AP means neither get near the ST often, the mez plays wide and the ap deep.

DR I think could be freed up a bit from his defend duty, I think theres enough cm players so a simple FB-Su.

[Francisco94]

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, the Match Engine of this FM (and several previous editions) does not allow you to play football with good results. That is, the ME is designed so that these tactics of high possession fail to achieve results.

I consider that the ME of this edition is by far the worst of all.

Hopefully you can find a solution to this. It is a big problem for those of us who like to play soccer with high possession.

 

The advice they give you is well received, but believe me, I have tried 9-10 tactics from different users from all over the world. I have achieved high possession football but I always end up failing in the results. Very disappointed!

 

[tlm_77]

28 minutes ago, Francisco94 said:

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, the Match Engine of this FM (and several previous editions) does not allow you to play football with good results. That is, the ME is designed so that these tactics of high possession fail to achieve results.

I consider that the ME of this edition is by far the worst of all.

Hopefully you can find a solution to this. It is a big problem for those of us who like to play soccer with high possession.

 

The advice they give you is well received, but believe me, I have tried 9-10 tactics from different users from all over the world. I have achieved high possession football but I always end up failing in the results. Very disappointed!

 

How have you achieved high possession out of interest.

I'm sticking to a 4-1-2-2-1 wide system and in some matches, can get near to 800 passes, 65-75% possession and win 3-0 or something, then, play against a seemingly weaker team and maybe win but they have 800 passes to my 400 and i'm down to 45% possession - no change to my tactic.

It's bizarre and very frustrating. I had hoped to re-create a tactic in FM20 akin to years gone by where I could dominate possession in nearly all games (ala Barca in Pep years) and I can't find the key to unlock this in FM20.

I have reviewed so many games where the opposing team has ridiculous numbers of passes and I've set up a high pressing tactic to stop them from passing from defender to defender but my forwards don't win the ball back ever.

Teams playing 'cautiously' against mine often have 600+ passes and higher possession...it's like nothing I do seems to trigger my team winning to ball back and then keeping it.

Drives me mad.

[Francisco94]

50 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

How have you achieved high possession out of interest.

I'm sticking to a 4-1-2-2-1 wide system and in some matches, can get near to 800 passes, 65-75% possession and win 3-0 or something, then, play against a seemingly weaker team and maybe win but they have 800 passes to my 400 and i'm down to 45% possession - no change to my tactic.

It's bizarre and very frustrating. I had hoped to re-create a tactic in FM20 akin to years gone by where I could dominate possession in nearly all games (ala Barca in Pep years) and I can't find the key to unlock this in FM20.

I have reviewed so many games where the opposing team has ridiculous numbers of passes and I've set up a high pressing tactic to stop them from passing from defender to defender but my forwards don't win the ball back ever.

Teams playing 'cautiously' against mine often have 600+ passes and higher possession...it's like nothing I do seems to trigger my team winning to ball back and then keeping it.

Drives me mad.

My friend,

Some of the tactics I have tried are the "Guardiola Confidetial" of FMKorea and the "Emulating Pep Barca" of Passion4FM among others, but these two (with their variants) are the ones that have best managed to replicate the guardiola tactic or failing Get high levels of possession.

Indeed, as you say, the Match Engine of this version of Football Manager is very bad due to what you mention. It is impossible to win something in the medium term by playing a high possession football.

Do not try anymore because you will never get it.

The game is designed in a way that possession lovers frustrate us to achieve success.

Very sad!

[crusadertsar]

@Francisco94I don't think there is a problem with possession in the game. I am playing as Real Sociedad using 4-3-3 and dominating most opponents in possession. For example I recently beat Real Madrid 2-0 with my possession tactic and then tied Barca 1-1 three days later. My possession is usually between 50-70 depending on the game and opponent. It's all about smart tactical choices and roles that make sense and work well together.

And using exploit plug and play tactics from the download section will definitely not do that.

Edited March 11, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Robson 07]

Maybe an insight for newer players or a reminder for older ones on the mechanics will help.  First a reminder that contain is very defensive; counter is cautious; standard is balanced; control is positive; and overload is very attacking.

For the purpose of this, a thread on passing & possession, the game splits on the standard (balanced) mentality as illustrated by the table above.  Think of  that middle mentality as the equator.

Anyway, I've highlighted a few things relevant to this thread and the fact the OP used a tactic with a positive mentality.  As you will see, on this playing mentality, roles that use a defend duty naturally prone to pass shorter.  Roles that use an attack duty pass more direct.  That passing style is magnified even further as you go up on the aggressive side of the equator.  This is why people struggle to keep (possession-based) control of matches on the upper end mentalities and why I said  previously that middling mentalities were your friend.

Now on the other side of the equator, very defensive - counter, that effect is reversed.  That is, defend duties are naturally more prone to be direct, and attack duties much shorter.

This is one of the reasons why I said in my previous post that you should be judicious about penetration or runs from deep, as this is brought about by attack duties.  However if you use more defend duties it will not only help with passing but it will structure your team shape for you as well.

Now a quick disclaimer before you stuff your tactic full of defend duties.  The more static and possession hungry the team becomes it may start to dry up goals wise.  It may also allow the opposition less passes and shots but there's the risk that it will allow them one 'good' chance.  So somewhere along the way you will need to find how much is too much.

[Experienced Defender]

@Francisco94 @tlm_77 If you think the ME is "responsible" for your issues (as opposed to your/downloaded/exploit tactics), there is the relevant section of the forum, so please post your complaints there. Because this section is for people who want to improve their tactic (and tactical knowledge), rather than blaming the ME (or whatever) for their team's underpeformance.

Therefore, if you don't have any constructive advice to offer the OP in terms of what he could do tactically, then please do not hijack his thread by this meaningless discussion about the ME (which, again, is legitimate, but not in this section of the forum).

Thanks!

[DiStru_]

4 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Very useful, can you please share the original table (without circles, so I can save it)? Also, where is this from (some sort of a guide, or a book?)

Ty!

[Francisco94]

9 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@ Francisco94 No creo que haya un problema con la posesión en el juego. Estoy jugando como Real Sociedad usando 4-3-3 y dominando a la mayoría de los oponentes en posesión. Por ejemplo, recientemente vencí al Real Madrid por 2-0 con mi táctica de posesión y luego empaté con el Barça 1-1 tres días después. Mi posesión suele estar entre 50-70 dependiendo del juego y el oponente. Se trata de elecciones tácticas inteligentes y roles que tienen sentido y funcionan bien juntos.

Y usar tácticas de explotación de plug and play de la sección de descargas definitivamente no hará eso.

 

Can you share that tactic with me? I want to try it with my Manchester United

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

@ Francisco94  @ tlm_77  Si cree que el ME es "responsable" de sus problemas (en oposición a sus tácticas / descargadas / de explotación), existe la sección correspondiente del foro, así que publique sus quejas allí. Porque esta sección es para personas que desean mejorar su táctica (y conocimiento táctico), en lugar de culpar al ME (o lo que sea) por el bajo rendimiento de su equipo.

Por lo tanto, si no tiene ningún consejo constructivo para ofrecer el OP en términos de lo que podría hacer tácticamente , entonces no intercepte su hilo en esta discusión sin sentido sobre el ME (que, nuevamente, es legítimo, pero no en este sección del foro).

¡Gracias!

Man,

 

I talked about tactics with @tlm_77, not just about the match engine which was a separate complaint.

[Robson 07]

 

1 hour ago, DiStru_ said:

Very useful, can you please share the original table (without circles, so I can save it)? Also, where is this from (some sort of a guide, or a book?)

Ty!

Of course, all in here.  Arguably the best guide of all.

 

[crusadertsar]

@Francisco94

It's all here, just look at my latest update from March. The tactic is there although I will be doing a more in depth role guide this Friday so the tactic might have some slight updates then. But my reasoning for recreating Pep's overloads and just doing possession style in general should be in thread already. I'm a big fan of Total football, Bielsa and Pep. I also love attacking progressive possession (aka Positional Play or Vertical tiki taka) and I definitely think it's possible in FM20 even with mid-level team like Real Sociedad.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by crusadertsar

[DiStru_]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

Of course, all in here.  Arguably the best guide of all.

Quick question, if you don't mind. How much can team/player instruction manipulate these defend/attack duty passing styles?

For example, counter = defend duty more direct, attack duty shorter. Let's say I like everything about counter, except the fact that defend duties will tend to pass more direct. Would using shorter passing player instructions on defend duties help change that, or will they ultimately always be a bit more direct, simply because their individual mentality is lower and they therefore take less risks?

Or another example, same mentality (counter). If I use shorter passing team instruction, would that mean that now defend duties will be balanced (one notch lower than more direct) and attack duties much shorter (one notch lower than shorter)?

Hope that makes sense.

[Robson 07]

2 hours ago, DiStru_ said:

For example, counter = defend duty more direct, attack duty shorter. Let's say I like everything about counter, except the fact that defend duties will tend to pass more direct. Would using shorter passing player instructions on defend duties help change that, or will they ultimately always be a bit more direct, simply because their individual mentality is lower and they therefore take less risks?

I believe play out of defence (TI) is minimal passing instruction for all defender and DM positions.

I think the passing scale still works from 1-20 with long ball being at the 20 end.  I think an instruction like play shorter may reduce passing numbers by a percentage but I'm speculating a bit now.  In your example it will make slightly more difference to your defend duty passing than your attack but I can't give you any numbers on that scale to highlight that.

Note.  This all reflects how SI have chosen to reflect risk.  The more risk averse a defend duty becomes the more, they, presumably defenders, will simply clear their lines with a longer ball.  Passing shorter (for defend duties) on the other hand is seen as risk i.e. getting caught in possession, and is especially dangerous in a low block as the opposition is nearer to your goal.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Robson 07

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Francisco94 said:

Man,

 

I talked about tactics with @tlm_77, not just about the match engine which was a separate complaint

The point is that both you and tlm used this thread to complain about the ME, without offering any tactical advice to the OP. So either stick with the topic of this specific thread and the tactics (sub)forum in general, or I'll have to start removing the posts that are not in conformity with the topic. 

I think I've been clear enough.

[Francisco94]

16 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@ Francisco94

Todo está aquí, solo mira mi última actualización de marzo. La táctica está allí, aunque este viernes haré una guía de roles más profunda, por lo que la táctica podría tener algunas actualizaciones leves. Pero mi razonamiento para recrear las sobrecargas de Pep y simplemente hacer el estilo de posesión en general ya debería estar en entredicho. Soy un gran fanático del fútbol total, Bielsa y Pep. También me encanta atacar la posesión progresiva (también conocida como Positional Play o Vertical tiki taka) y definitivamente creo que es posible en FM20 incluso con equipos de nivel medio como Real Sociedad.

 

 

Oh man, thank you so much!!

 

 

I am also a lover crazy about Bielsa, Guardiola and Cruyff above all !!

Thank you very much seriously, I hope this tactic can finally work for me.

I keep you up to date with news about my tests.

[sporadicsmiles]

I am currently also trying to work on something related to this. Based around tactical flexibility.

Here is a screen shot of one of the games I played recently (as West Ham, obviously). 61% possession and 3-0 away from home.

This kind of thing is possible on the current ME. 

[radenje]

The only time I could consistently pull 60%+ ball possession was when I played with FC Barcelona. My set-up was:

Positive mentality 4-3-3 (the one u use, with defensive midfielder and wingers) 

----------------SK(d)------------------

IWB(d) - CD(d) - CD(d) - WB(a)

---------------DPL(d)-----------------

--------MEZ(a)------RPM(s)--------

IW(s)-----------------------------IF(s)

-------------CF(s) or DLF(s/a)------

Much shorter passing, play out of defence, dribble less - these were pretty much core instructions, most of the times I also used work ball into the box, when struggled to score I unticked work ball into the box, added pass into space and sometimes changed passing to shorter or even added higher tempo 

Always used counter press and ball distribution to CB's, didn't tick anything in Counter/Reshape 

much higher line of engagement, much urgent pressing, much higher defensive line

 

I can't say the setup was perfect but I had possession and my team played pretty nice. Struggled to score goals but I played with Barcelona so I always managed to win somehow because of brilliant players like Messi, Neymar, Lautaro Martinez, Kai Havertz etc. You're playing Bayern so I don't think that scoring goals out of nowhere should be a problem.

I used also the same setup when managing Spain national team but U-19. Managed to keep 70%+ ball possession in every match but that's probably because U19 Spain has insane players and I was playing against weak teams in EURO qualifiers or friendly matches

[tlm_77]

On 11/03/2020 at 23:23, Experienced Defender said:

The point is that both you and tlm used this thread to complain about the ME, without offering any tactical advice to the OP. So either stick with the topic of this specific thread and the tactics (sub)forum in general, or I'll have to start removing the posts that are not in conformity with the topic. 

I think I've been clear enough.

Where exactly did I COMPLAIN ABOUT THE ME?

I was involved in a conversation about TACTICS which is EXACTLY what the OP posted about. If this topic evolves with slightly broader conversation, albeit STILL about possession I might add - WHERE is the problem?

I haven't USED this thread to complain about the ME - you're out of order to suggest that.

If anything, you are the one not even remotely ON TOPIC because you lazily read posts and then couple that with draconian censorship.

 

READ my post again, it is about POSSESSION and developing MORE possession and this being consistent. This is EXACTLY what my interpretation of what the OP first posted about.

 

Maybe you could offer some guidance, rather than threats...

(no doubt you will be 'offended' by this an delete this post....jeez)

Edited March 14, 2020 by tlm_77

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

Where exactly did I COMPLAIN ABOUT THE ME?

You personally did not complain about the ME, at least not as directly as Francisco did. However: 

 

7 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

I was involved in a conversation about TACTICS which is EXACTLY what the OP posted about. If this topic evolves with slightly broader conversation, albeit STILL about possession I might add - WHERE is the problem?

Your reply to Francisco, who did complain about the ME, did not include anything that might help the OP to find a solution to his issue. Instead, you were talking about your own tactical issues. Which, in combination with Francisco's already off-topic post, threatened to completely derail the thread. That was the problem in your case specifically. So your "guilt" is certainly not as big as Francisco's, but you nevertheless contributed to the thread starting to develop in a wrong direction. 

Now, let's sort the next 2 things out once and for all:

1. Complaining about the ME is absolutely legitimate on the forum, but not in this particular section (Tactics). There are other sections where people can complain regarding the ME (even when their complaints are unfounded)

2. If you have issues with your tactic, do not use other people's threads to discuss them. Instead, start your own thread, post a screenshot of the problematic tactic and explain what is the problem and why you are asking for help/advice. Be sure that people will offer you as much help as they can.

Including myself, in spite of what you wrote: 

26 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

If anything, you are the one not even remotely ON TOPIC because you lazily read posts and then couple that with draconian censorship

There has been no "draconian" censorship toward you thus far, because all I wrote was just a warning in order to prevent the thread from being hijacked and/or derailed in any sense. 

But if you continue to argue in this aggressive and unacceptable manner, following measures could well be more than just "draconian". 

36 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

(no doubt you will be 'offended' by this an delete this post....jeez

I am not a type of person that gets easily offended. And I will not delete this particular post from you, because - as I mentioned above - this was the first time you've posted in this manner (at least to my knowledge). But in case you keep ignoring the warnings and/or forum rules, I will have no choice but to apply more rigorous measures. 

[tlm_77]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You personally did not complain about the ME, at least not as directly as Francisco did. However: 

 

Your reply to Francisco, who did complain about the ME, did not include anything that might help the OP to find a solution to his issue. Instead, you were talking about your own tactical issues. Which, in combination with Francisco's already off-topic post, threatened to completely derail the thread. That was the problem in your case specifically. So your "guilt" is certainly not as big as Francisco's, but you nevertheless contributed to the thread starting to develop in a wrong direction. 

Now, let's sort the next 2 things out once and for all:

1. Complaining about the ME is absolutely legitimate on the forum, but not in this particular section (Tactics). There are other sections where people can complain regarding the ME (even when their complaints are unfounded)

2. If you have issues with your tactic, do not use other people's threads to discuss them. Instead, start your own thread, post a screenshot of the problematic tactic and explain what is the problem and why you are asking for help/advice. Be sure that people will offer you as much help as they can.

Including myself, in spite of what you wrote: 

There has been no "draconian" censorship toward you thus far, because all I wrote was just a warning in order to prevent the thread from being hijacked and/or derailed in any sense. 

But if you continue to argue in this aggressive and unacceptable manner, following measures could well be more than just "draconian". 

I am not a type of person that gets easily offended. And I will not delete this particular post from you, because - as I mentioned above - this was the first time you've posted in this manner (at least to my knowledge). But in case you keep ignoring the warnings and/or forum rules, I will have no choice but to apply more rigorous measures. 

Frankly, I'm a little alarmed and irritated by your response. I will only reply this once because I feel you should at least see my reply as that is polite, after this post, I'll not post again because it definitely is nothing that will help the OP.

 

I must, however, raise some points.

Firstly this. You wrote: "both you and tlm used this thread to complain about the ME" and then replied with: "You personally did not complain about the ME"

Maybe you can see why I find your intervention irritating? I did not mention the ME at ALL - neither directly or indirectly or with any intent. Then again, how can you not 'indirectly' imply issue with the ME when the whole tactical game is based around the ME? Anyway...moving on.

Your 2 points.

1. I didn't complain about the ME - so why post this?

2. Again, I struggle with this - i'd have no problem with anyone posting their own tactical issue on a thread I started because discussion HELPS. The OP Title is a WIDE question, not just about the OP's own tactic - 

Is it possible to get in average 55% ball possession? 

You're suggesting that I can't talk about my own tactics in answer to this, because why? I'm trying to help OP and ME and OTHERS who are like minded about possession.

 

Is it not acceptable for conversations in threads to 'evolve' in order to seek to address the original queries? I think it is, I think what I was trying to talk about was entirely linked to the OP's query and the thread topic. Sometimes things aren't always a straight line.

But if you continue to argue in this aggressive and unacceptable manner, following measures could well be more than just "draconian".

Ok, wow. Where have I argued or been aggressive?

And to finish your reply off, you make threats towards me ("measures could well be more than just draconian")

I get your role, I get the 'rules' and I have a tonne of respect for the forum and fellow FM gamers. I don't need you to make false allegations against me or make threats towards me.

I'm taking screen shots of all of this should you carry out your threat of unwarranted action against me and I will take it forward with which ever channel I can.

You have, in my opinion, got this wrong, you didn't need to be hostile, you could have been far politer and you definitely ought not make cowardly threats.

I know you have the power to do what you wish to my account. I will be furious if you chose inappropriate action over this.

Ball in your court. As I said, I'm moving on from this and will not be posting again here.

 

My sincere apologies to the OP for my replies here which are clearly not on topic. I hope you accept my apology and why I felt I needed to reply and defend myself.  I will continue to play this game as I love it and will continue to forge ahead with tactics geared around possession and hopefully, I will be permitted to continue to contribute where I can (i'm not a massively active poster).

Cheers

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, tlm_77 said:

Firstly this. You wrote: "both you and tlm used this thread to complain about the ME" and then replied with: "You personally did not complain about the ME"

Maybe you can see why I find your intervention irritating? I did not mention the ME at ALL - neither directly or indirectly or with any intent

Okay, you - unlike Francisco - did not mention the ME, and I did acknowledge that already: 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

You personally did not complain about the ME

So I apologize for accusing you on that particular point. 

But you did enter a discussion that offered no advice/help to the OP, and - moreover - it was in direct response to Francisco's post that complained about the ME. Therefore, I had to warn both of you before the thread gets derailed and/or hijacked. Which I did here: 

On 11/03/2020 at 16:16, Experienced Defender said:

if you don't have any constructive advice to offer the OP in terms of what he could do tactically, then please do not hijack his thread

That's the key point of my post in which I first mentioned you and Francisco. 

 

1 hour ago, tlm_77 said:

Then again, how can you not 'indirectly' imply issue with the ME when the whole tactical game is based around the ME?

The fact that the ME exists in the game as its indispensable part does not automatically mean that it is responsible for tactical issues that people are experiencing while playing the game. Even if the ME was "perfect" - which it has never been and can never be - it still would not be able to compensate for poorly constructed tactics. But given that you did not complain about the ME, I guess this argument is irrelevant anyway. 

 

1 hour ago, tlm_77 said:

I didn't complain about the ME - so why post this?

Okay, you did not. Already acknowledged and explained above. 

 

1 hour ago, tlm_77 said:

Again, I struggle with this - i'd have no problem with anyone posting their own tactical issue on a thread I started because discussion HELPS

You personally may not see a problem with anyone using your thread - i.e. a thread you started - to discuss their own tactical issues and potentially derail/hijack your thread. And btw, I personally also do not have that kind of problem in the threads I start (although I have not asked for tactical help for quite a while). However:

1. Someone else may see that as a problem in their own thread; and

2. I - as a moderator - am therefore obliged to warn people - like you and Francisco in this particular case - before that happens

Ultimately, that's why anyone is free to start their own thread and ask for help, so that all people who have tactical problems could get a fair deal of attention and advice, instead of doing that in other people's threads. 

I don't say that you and Francisco did it with any bad intention. Just wanted to prevent your off-topic discussion from developing further in a thread that was started by someone else. 

1 hour ago, tlm_77 said:

The OP Title is a WIDE question, not just about the OP's own tactic - 

Is it possible to get in average 55% ball possession?

The question in the title of the thread is a wide/broad question per se. But his opening post is specific and contains a screenshot of a specific tactic he is asking for advice about. Therefore, it is about the OP's own tactic and what he should do in order to improve it and get closer to what he wants. 

 

1 hour ago, tlm_77 said:

You're suggesting that I can't talk about my own tactics in answer to this, because why? I'm trying to help OP and ME and OTHERS who are like minded about possession

You can talk about your own tactic in someone else's thread only if your tactic represents a solution to the problem that person has. Therefore, if someone starts a thread complaining about low possession and you have a successful tactic with good possession stats, then you can put your tactic forward as an example that can give him or her some ideas on what they can do about their tactic. 

Also keep in mind that your post would have been seen as much less problematic if it were not a direct reply to Francisco's post complaining about the ME. If you instead had replied to the OP, then it would have been significantly different. 

I'll get back later to address the rest of your post.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

Ok, wow. Where have I argued or been aggressive?

Here: 

4 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

If anything, you are the one not even remotely ON TOPIC because you lazily read posts and then couple that with draconian censorship

And here: 

4 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

Maybe you could offer some guidance, rather than threats...

(no doubt you will be 'offended' by this an delete this post....jeez)

And on top of that, the use of capital letters is considered aggressive and as such is against the forum rules: 

 

4 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

Where exactly did I COMPLAIN ABOUT THE ME?

I was involved in a conversation about TACTICS which is EXACTLY what the OP posted about. If this topic evolves with slightly broader conversation, albeit STILL about possession I might add - WHERE is the problem?

I haven't USED this thread to complain about the ME - you're out of order to suggest that.

If anything, you are the one not even remotely ON TOPIC because you lazily read posts and then couple that with draconian censorship.

 

READ my post again, it is about POSSESSION and developing MORE possession and this being consistent. This is EXACTLY what my interpretation of what the OP first posted about.

 

Maybe you could offer some guidance, rather than threats...

(no doubt you will be 'offended' by this an delete this post....jeez)

If you want to emphasize something, you can bold and/or underline it. 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

And to finish your reply off, you make threats towards me ("measures could well be more than just draconian")

These so-called "threats" were made only after your post (i.e. reply to my initial warning) in which you accused me of applying "draconian censorship", even though there had been no censorship at all, just a warning to remind you (and Francisco) to keep to the topic. 

 

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

I get your role, I get the 'rules' and I have a tonne of respect for the forum and fellow FM gamers

Good. In that case, there should be no more problems. 

 

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

I don't need you to make false allegations against me or make threats towards me.

I'm taking screen shots of all of this should you carry out your threat of unwarranted action against me and I will take it forward with which ever channel I can

No problem, just go ahead  

And btw, I haven't taken any action against you (yet), even though such an action would have been more than justifiable (based on the forum rules), considering the manner in which you started to argue with me after the post in which I had just warned the 2 of you to stick to the topic and explained what was the problem. 

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

You have, in my opinion, got this wrong, you didn't need to be hostile, you could have been far politer and you definitely ought not make cowardly threats

I was not hostile at all. You were the first to start an argument in a hostile manner. It was only after your inappropriate reply to me that my tone became more aggressive. 

 

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

I know you have the power to do what you wish to my account

No, I don't. There are people above me. They make any final decisions. 

 

3 hours ago, tlm_77 said:

I will be furious if you chose inappropriate action over this

I am not sure what exactly you mean by "inappropriate action", but your manner of posting in this thread after my initial warning post looks as though you actually want to be subjected to such kind of action. 

There is a strong reason why each forum has its mods and admins. We are here primarily to keep things in order and help people to use the forum in a proper way. Penalties are just a last resort. They ensue only after all other options (warnings) have been applied to no avail.

[tlm_77]

23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here: 

And here: 

And on top of that, the use of capital letters is considered aggressive and as such is against the forum rules: 

 

If you want to emphasize something, you can bold and/or underline it. 

Man, I really wanted to just leave this but I feel I have to defend myself again - but this is it from me, this isn't healthy, isn't topic-related and will just spiral downwards.

I'm not sure what your beef with me is to be honest. You seem to be overly sensitive and too militant in my view.

The examples you have used to demonstrate that I have been argumentative and/or aggressive are at best, incredibly weak.

So you are completely clear, there was never any intent to come across that way, but lets not forget, I was irritated because it was you that accused me of something I had not done - what do you expect from people when you wade in throwing accusations around?

You did seem to take a step forward in apologising, then ruined that by further trying to justify your approach. You state that I "offered no advice/help to the OP" - ok, not directly I didn't but again, I make the point about discussions others can have that can indeed indirectly help others, discussion is healthy and we were on topic, certainly I was, I was talking about possession and sharing thoughts about it.

 

The use of capitals isn't always seen as aggressive at all. It is perfectly acceptable to use capitals to emphasise a word/point but I will refrain from this if it is forum etiquette not to use in this way. I apologise for that.

I think you should show far greater restraint/understanding/manners when policing threads. You have misunderstood my posts which feels a bit like this is a bit of a culturally instituioninal issue.

I'm dissapointed about of all this to be honest but I'm mature enough to move on and not let this go on.

All the best.

[tlm_77]

May I suggest if you wish to communicate with me further you DM me to save the thread at least.

I've seen your last post btw, again, feels like you are desperately trying to justify your unnecessarily militant approach to save grace.

I will not respond to any more of this on here, it's not fair to the OP and/or thread.

Kind regards.

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

Man, I really wanted to just leave this but I feel I have to defend myself again - but this is it from me, this isn't healthy, isn't topic-related and will just spiral downwards

Yes, I fully agree  Except for the part that you "have to defend" yourself. From whom? Nobody is attacking you. I am just doing my job as a mod, and that's all. 

I would gladly reply to the rest of your post, but I see that this discussions obviously leads to nowhere. I apologized for the (only) mistake I inadvertently made, and then was patient enough to explain you step by step everything you mentioned and complained about in your following posts. 

8 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

I've seen your last post btw, again, feels like you are desperately trying to justify your unnecessarily militant approach to save grace

I am sorry if you perceived any of my posts in such a way, because that was never my intention. 

 

10 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

I will not respond to any more of this on here, it's not fair to the OP and/or thread

Agreed (again)  

 

10 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

Kind regards

As well.

[Britrock]

In answer to the thread title, yes it is. I won everything in Uruguay (Primera Division, Intermedio, two Super Cups) with Nacional playing this formation and averaged 61% possession for the season

I then moved on to Club America in Mexico and won everything there (two titles, CONCACAF Champions League) and averaged 58% possession playing this formation

If you build a sensible, balanced tactic you can dominate possession and win games and titles while playing attacking, attractive, free flowing football

[vandamme22]

So, after the technical and emotional discussions, I would like to come back to my question as a topic owner. 

I tried to extract the most important insights from the professional inputs and implement them tactically. 

At the moment, that's the way it is:

Am 6.3.2020 um 23:29 schrieb summatsupeer:

Why do you expect 55% with that system?

The Bayern Board of Management demands ball possession-oriented football. I am not a tiki-taka fanatic, where 65-70% of the ball must be owned, rather less, but equally dominant that the goals of the club are achieved.  Therefore rather an adapted vertical tiki taka. Where more progressive ball possession is required. The preset tactical variation of the vertical tiki taka is too extreme in its execution. Therefore slightly adjusted.

Based on my goals and the player types I have. Can I achieve that with this split, player roles and duties, TI's etc.? 

again how I would like to play:

• progressive ball possession style (similar to vertical tiki taka)
• play central rather than through the wings
• my CF and IF should score the most goals
• fullbacks should be offensively involved. Midfielders except the offensive one should rather protect the defensive.

What is the difference between an IF and an IW role?

thanks for constructive content

 

PS:I had the demo version first. When it expired I couldn't play on and answer immediately. Now I have bought the full version and of course I want to know.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

What is the difference between an IF and an IW role?

IF takes more risks, plays a bit higher and is more focused on coming inside.

IW is kind of between an IF and Winger.  Runs with it but then has to decide what  to do, cross, pass, recycle posession etc. Doesnt play quite as high as a IF.

Hows the tactic doing? It's very aggressive defensively but unless your having issues why change anything?

Edit: The left flank is a bit offensive, IF-At, CM-At and WB-Su all have ger forward often, possession needs pass to feet options and covet to recycle posession and not so many players focused on runs into space.

Edited March 20, 2020 by summatsupeer

[sporadicsmiles]

7 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

So, after the technical and emotional discussions, I would like to come back to my question as a topic owner. 

I tried to extract the most important insights from the professional inputs and implement them tactically. 

At the moment, that's the way it is:

The Bayern Board of Management demands ball possession-oriented football. I am not a tiki-taka fanatic, where 65-70% of the ball must be owned, rather less, but equally dominant that the goals of the club are achieved.  Therefore rather an adapted vertical tiki taka. Where more progressive ball possession is required. The preset tactical variation of the vertical tiki taka is too extreme in its execution. Therefore slightly adjusted.

Based on my goals and the player types I have. Can I achieve that with this split, player roles and duties, TI's etc.? 

again how I would like to play:

• progressive ball possession style (similar to vertical tiki taka)
• play central rather than through the wings
• my CF and IF should score the most goals
• fullbacks should be offensively involved. Midfielders except the offensive one should rather protect the defensive.

What is the difference between an IF and an IW role?

thanks for constructive content

 

PS:I had the demo version first. When it expired I couldn't play on and answer immediately. Now I have bought the full version and of course I want to know.

Counter can be counterproductive (I laugh at my own bad pun) for possession football. You typically want to bring the ball out, and counter will go against this. 

I would flip the two central midfield roles. A DLP and WB on support will be excellent at bringing the ball out of defence together. They will support each other. Plus I would worry about the IF and CM(A) trying to be in the same space. 

Higher tempo can also be nice in producing something a bit zippier, and with more direct intent. You build from the back, but not too slowly. 

[Robson 07]

A couple of things.  If you are not using a playmaker at DM I'd consider using 'play out of defence'.   Personally though I would not use the playmaker role where you have in this system and I've highlighted him in blue.  You have him in a busy part of the field and he'll almost certainly have an opponent in a position directly up against him.

Therefore i would look to put a playmaker 'between the lines' and I've drawn them in too (for no good reason lol), so in the DM or AM strata where there is less chance of a direct opponent and it encourages the ball to be passed through the lines.  

Now if you do move your playmaker to DM - and again maybe this is just me - I would not put him there and still use 'play out of defence'.  This is because the defenders should already be looking for the playmaker and because that will limit your playmaker's passing range if used in that position.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Robson 07

[vandamme22]

So I could play again a longer time and would like to give you a short summary:

I've modified my tactics a little. It goes in the direction of progressive ball possession (inspired by the moderator expericend defender). Why? Because as I mentioned before, I am not a hardcore ball possession fanatic like we know it from barcelona or bavaria under pep. My goal is to determine the game, but offense to get many chances and score many goals. I just want to dominate the ball possession slightly, because it is a requirement of the board - nothing more.

Use one split pressing (4 offensive players are pressing more)

Unfortunately, the results and ball possession are not good - I am really struggling.

Here are some examples. The opponents do not play a role. Could be the bottom of the table or Inter Milan. I'm a long way from a ball-holding dominance. Exception was the game against Porto

I am currently 16 in the ball possession statistics in the Bundesliga with a ridiculous 43% share. Ironically, the board is "still" satisfied. Let's see how that develops after a few more games.

Problem areas or questions:
1. My striker is despite dlp role not involved in penalty area scenes or scoring chances. Only successful in standards or penalties. Hardly any scenes.
2. I have little or no goal chances out of the game. No real penetration of the opponent's defense. Mostly over the wings, but somehow not consistently.
3. generally scoring too few goals and not creating many chances or scoring goals.
4. extreme inconsistency. I play Inter Milan against the wall (see statistics) 3 days later at home against Hoffenheim I have 1 goal shot in the first half. Can't be that I have to radically adjust my tactics every time. I play with a top team and I think that I have set up a balancing tactic.

Therefore the request - do you have the same experiences? If so what could I change or do differently? I think the selected roles and tasks can be fulfilled by the players used. The morale is actually good. I do not know what else I could change.

Thanks for your tips.

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by vandamme22

[Experienced Defender]

It's quite interesting that Bayern seems to be the only top team with which people massively struggle to implement this particular style of play. I really don't know if the problem is about the type of players or wrong player selection for certain roles or people failing to spot and make the right tactical tweaks. So you are just yet another FM player in a row with this specific issue. 

[Malin11]

How are your opponents' passing stats looking like?

What I'm experiencing myself when trying to build a possession orientated team in FM20 is it's impossible to win the ball back when opposition team decides to waste time from minute one just passing the ball between back 4/5 who end up racking up a million of passes between them.

[Nes1995]

in my opinion having played in a few teams in the German league.... its hard to play possession football because of gengenpress a lot of teams do it there

[vandamme22]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Experienced Defender:

It's quite interesting that Bayern seems to be the only top team with which people massively struggle to implement this particular style of play. I really don't know if the problem is about the type of players or wrong player selection for certain roles or people failing to spot and make the right tactical tweaks. So you are just yet another FM player in a row with this specific issue. 

means concrete? Is Bayern overrated?

Other players have the same problem with FC Barcelona, for example. On average 45% ball possession. Messi has scored the most header goals in the league. 

But as you say, this is an individual problem and I am looking for possible solutions. 

[vandamme22]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Malin11:

How are your opponents' passing stats looking like?

Sure.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb vandamme22:

vor 5 Stunden schrieb vandamme22:

vor 5 Stunden schrieb vandamme22:

 

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Malin11:

What I'm experiencing myself when trying to build a possession orientated team in FM20 is it's impossible to win the ball back when opposition team decides to waste time from minute one just passing the ball between back 4/5 who end up racking up a million of passes between them.

It is illogical that it can be so, since I already press more with the 4 higher ranking players. 

[vandamme22]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb Nes1995:

n my opinion having played in a few teams in the German league.... its hard to play possession football because of gengenpress a lot of teams do it there

If that were the case, then I would have much more counter possibilities - which is also not the case. I also don't believe that an FC Köln - away at the bottom of the table - will put up a counter-pressing against fcb. Even if they had the players for that.

[summatsupeer]

4 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

Use one split pressing (4 offensive players are pressing more)

...

I am currently 16 in the ball possession statistics in the Bundesliga with a ridiculous 43% share. Ironically, the board is "still" satisfied. Let's see how that develops after a few more games.

Problem areas or questions:
1. My striker is despite dlp role not involved in penalty area scenes or scoring chances. Only successful in standards or penalties. Hardly any scenes.
2. I have little or no goal chances out of the game. No real penetration of the opponent's defense. Mostly over the wings, but somehow not consistently.
3. generally scoring too few goals and not creating many chances or scoring goals.
4. extreme inconsistency. I play Inter Milan against the wall (see statistics) 3 days later at home against Hoffenheim I have 1 goal shot in the first half. Can't be that I have to radically adjust my tactics every time. I play with a top team and I think that I have set up a balancing tactic.

 

Lets look at two of the players, Gnabry and Coman:

1. Gnabry - Pace, Balance, Off The Ball, Dribbling, Finishing, Acceleration, Flair are his best attributes.  Decisions is 11, Composure 11, Teamwork 10 are some of his worst attacking attributes. 
2.  Coman - Pace, Acceleration, Agility, Fitness, Dribbling, Flair, Work Rate, Aggression are his best attributes.  Decisions 10, Composure 10, Teamwork 13 are some of his worst attacking attributes.

Both are what I would call "direct" players.  There physical attributes FAR outclass there mental attributes and for possession systems to work. They need to make good decisions, be composed under pressure etc.  Quite simply I think playing a slower/shorter possession type game just gives opponents time to get back and organized which counters direct players.  Your playing the direct players in direct roles to, they don't really fit with a possession system, a Winger? whos in the box for the cross besides most of the opponent team?

Now you do have very good smart players in the starting squad (not sure who you still have), Kimmich, Muller, Lewandowski, Alaba and Coutinho for example.  Thiago is a great creator but his decisions is lower than I would like. 

I'm going to guess your inconsistency comes down to how opponents defend and how cautious in attack they are. The deeper and tighter they play, the harder you find it.  The more players they commit forward and fewer players behind the ball, the more space for your direct players.

What would I change? Assuming using same players i'd try and let the attacks be quicker.

1. Remove Overlap Left to free Gnabry up to be more direct.
2. Change Lewandowsi to DLF-At or CF-At to occupy defenders rather than trying to link play.

Point 1 + 2 should give Coman a earlier crossing target. Occupying the DCs should help the direct runs of Gnabry.  Your out of possession settings are a mid trap so there should be space to run into, maybe not if the counter press is successful.  If that improves things i'd look at the midfield next, I just don't like MEZ-At in wide systems and prefer them to support the ST rather than trying to make runs or play wider.

As far as possession %, that needs smarter players on the pitch, can still be quick dribbling players but need to have a bit more to there game.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, vandamme22 said:

means concrete? Is Bayern overrated?

I wouldn't call it "overrated". Maybe some of their players simply do not suit that particular style. I don't know, but something obviously doesn't fit. 

Maybe the team is "overaged", rather than overrated 

[Robson 07]

2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Remove Overlap Left to free Gnabry up to be more direct.

Latest tactic has playmaker at LCM.  He should be creating chances, playing-in defence-splitting killer passes.

Ahead of the playmaker you have a deep lying forward support.  He is hard coded to hold up the ball.  You also have an Inside Forward attack but by setting the TI overlap left he is also being instructed to hold up the ball too.

A question would therefore be, who is the playmaker supposed to play in behind the defence?

Also by being 'more expressive' you'll find that your players just tend to shoot at the end of moves or actually before moves have come to an end.

The primary function of a winger is simply to play wide and cross the ball.  Crossing always has a low success rate, and often relies on winning 2nd balls.  It's an easy way to lose possession.