Why Are My Players Determination Attribute Decreasing?

[bradmcc123]

Hi, I'm currently managing Brentford and i have brought in a few players. One included is Marchetti from Nancy. When i bought him he was 20 Determination, and whilst all attributes are steadily increasing at a healthy rate, his determination is randomly decreasing? It's the same with Rico Henry, my LB. He has decreased from 14 to 13. Bear in mind that i don't have them in any mentoring group where a Senior player has a lesser Determination Attribute. 
 

Any help is appreciated. 

 

Thanks!

[FrazT]

This sounds like attribute balancing to match his CA. If other attributes are increasing, then some may have to come down to compensate.  Bear in mind also that since attributes are calculated to the decimal point but only shown in whole numbers, a fall from 19.6 to 19.4 will show a drop of 1

[autohoratio]

21 minutes ago, FrazT said:

This sounds like attribute balancing to match his CA. If other attributes are increasing, then some may have to come down to compensate.  Bear in mind also that since attributes are calculated to the decimal point but only shown in whole numbers, a fall from 19.6 to 19.4 will show a drop of 1

The red arrow would in that case only point slightly down (mirroring the angle of the green arrows) rather than straight down

[herne79]

49 minutes ago, FrazT said:

This sounds like attribute balancing to match his CA. If other attributes are increasing, then some may have to come down to compensate.  Bear in mind also that since attributes are calculated to the decimal point but only shown in whole numbers, a fall from 19.6 to 19.4 will show a drop of 1

Unless it's been changed for FM19, Determination doesn't form part of the CA calculation.  What we'd typically see with attribute rebalancing is a whole raft of red down arrows - this means very minor reductions (0.1, 0.2) are made across lots of attributes rather than larger reductions (1.0+) be made to just a couple of attributes in order to keep the impact of such rebalancing small.

@bradmcc123 Not much to go on however this may be to do with these players being influenced by your overall squad personality.

[bradmcc123]

1 hour ago, FrazT said:

This sounds like attribute balancing to match his CA. If other attributes are increasing, then some may have to come down to compensate.  Bear in mind also that since attributes are calculated to the decimal point but only shown in whole numbers, a fall from 19.6 to 19.4 will show a drop of 1

in my vast experience playing this game, determination only goes up or down by whole numbers e.g. 20.0>19.0

[bradmcc123]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Unless it's been changed for FM19, Determination doesn't form part of the CA calculation.  What we'd typically see with attribute rebalancing is a whole raft of red down arrows - this means very minor reductions (0.1, 0.2) are made across lots of attributes rather than larger reductions (1.0+) be made to just a couple of attributes in order to keep the impact of such rebalancing small.

@bradmcc123 Not much to go on however this may be to do with these players being influenced by your overall squad personality.

yeah i thought that but other players aren't being affected, thats why its a tad baffling...

[Miravlix]

The club has a mentally, I think based on the average of all the players in the club, if the player is young enough he will loss/gain determination and the other hidden mental stats to move towards the club average.

 

A side effect of this "club" mentality average, is that accepting youth intakes can ruin it, because it's a large group of players with horrible mental stats.

[OTron]

This started to happening to me as well in the 2nd season of my Coventry game. 2 players just suddenly started losing Determination for seemingly no reason.

[AnonymusGolden]

I'm having the same issue. Almost every single young prospect is getting his determination lowered. It doesn't matter if they have 20 DET or 10 DET, it never goes up.

I have fairly decent personalities in the team. I have 2 model citizens, a bunch of professionals and faily professionals...

Pretty sure this is all because of the new mentoring system. Every now and then i get a message saying "overall mensality had a good impact on him" (don't remember the exact phrase) but when i enter the profile, either nothing has changed or determination has gone down

[Double Indemnity]

Over time, your squad sort of mulches towards the average of the personalities in the team. I've noticed determination declines, too, but luckily my squad's determination as a whole is kind of insane, so everyone is gravitating towards 16+.

The general way I've addressed this is only to hire/buy great personalities.

[bangkonggedek]

This is why I never sign the youth intakes with terrible personalities or abysmal Determination, unless their potential is huge.

In my opinion, the higher a player's Determination value is, then what should happen is the less likely they're to be dragged down by the squad's average. I can't imagine if someone like Cristiano Ronaldo simply being stuck in a team full of wimps will somehow starting to slack off himself. Hell, he's more likely to either get seriously pissed off by the rest of the team's attitude then disrupting the squad atmosphere, expecting the manager to be more demanding to his players or when he finally got fed up with it all, he'll hand transfer request so he can play somewhere else with more determined teammates.

Edited November 17, 2018 by bangkonggedek

[COYSBVB]

I've had the same problem too. I've sold all of the players with poor determination except for the ones who are really good. My squad morale and managerial support are both excellent, I have been very successful in my save and the squad personality is ambitious, with non of them having negative personalities, only 2 balanced.  Same goes for the u19s. Nevertheless, I have had to deal with players with high determination having their determination plummet. And it's very frustrating. If anyone has any ideas I would be very grateful, thanks

[dking]

Yep same issue at LFC. No mentoring groups going and only top players yet determination is dropping on quite a few players. I honestly think it's broken.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, dking said:

No mentoring groups going and only top players yet determination is dropping on quite a few players

Try creating some mentoring groups then.  Put a highly influential player or two with good determination in with 2/3/4 less influential players who you may want to have more determination, or at least not less determination.

[dking]

18 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Try creating some mentoring groups then.  Put a highly influential player or two with good determination in with 2/3/4 less influential players who you may want to have more determination, or at least not less determination.

I already did but the determination stats kept dropping. I also made sure that the groups were small and top players were the leaders in those groups.

[herne79]

56 minutes ago, dking said:

I already did but the determination stats kept dropping. I also made sure that the groups were small and top players were the leaders in those groups.

ok, however all you are mentioning so far is "top players".  You haven't defined what these top players are: where do they sit in your hierarchy, how influential (or not) they are in your squad dynamics, what are their personalities and determination?  Nor have you mentioned the profiles of the other players you put into the mentoring groups with them.

Further, what ratio of influential vs non-influential players did you use in mentoring groups?  What was everyone's personalities and determination like in those groups?  How old was everyone?  Did you put all of your squad into mentoring groups or just a few?  Have you read the Mentoring guides in the Tactics and Training forum?

Perhaps you have done all of this already, however we don't know because all we have to go on so far is "I'm not doing anything, determination is dropping, must be broken", when there is plenty that you can be doing to help prevent such drops .

Of course if you have done all of this and you believe it is broken, then the best thing you can do is open a new thread in the bugs forum and upload a copy of your game save for SI to take a look at.

[dking]

34 minutes ago, herne79 said:

ok, however all you are mentioning so far is "top players".  You haven't defined what these top players are: where do they sit in your hierarchy, how influential (or not) they are in your squad dynamics, what are their personalities and determination?  Nor have you mentioned the profiles of the other players you put into the mentoring groups with them.

Further, what ratio of influential vs non-influential players did you use in mentoring groups?  What was everyone's personalities and determination like in those groups?  How old was everyone?  Did you put all of your squad into mentoring groups or just a few?  Have you read the Mentoring guides in the Tactics and Training forum?

Perhaps you have done all of this already, however we don't know because all we have to go on so far is "I'm not doing anything, determination is dropping, must be broken", when there is plenty that you can be doing to help prevent such drops .

Of course if you have done all of this and you believe it is broken, then the best thing you can do is open a new thread in the bugs forum and upload a copy of your game save for SI to take a look at.

That's not what I said at all was it?

I've experimented with it in many saves and it's always the same outcome. I've read the guide and I'm pretty sure I understand how it's supposed to work.

Out of interest has anybody else seen determination stats rise much? I've only seen threads about it dropping.

[herne79]

 

8 hours ago, dking said:

Out of interest has anybody else seen determination stats rise much? I've only seen threads about it dropping.

Yes, I have seen determination rise (and personalities change) by setting up Mentoring groups.  Out of interest are you keeping similar players in Mentoring groups (eg., defenders with defenders, forwards with forwards) or are you mixing the Groups up by placing defenders in with forwards, goalkeepers in with any other position and so on?  In other words place any influential player regardless of position in with anyone else?

The reason I ask is because I've seen similar comments to yours and it turned out some people had been taking an influential goalkeeper (for example) and putting him into groups with players who were not goalkeepers.  Which is what we might have done in the old Tutoring system - just take any player with a good personality and use them as a Tutor.  But the intention of Mentoring is to keep similar players together in order for them to bond and work together as a unit, which they can't really do if your young forwards are being mentored by an ageing goalkeeper or defender.

[keysi]

I'm in 2034 right now and I saw the determination attribute rise and drop as well. From my experience, the squad personality has a big impact and mentoring groups too. But after some experimenting, I use only Team Leaders for mentoring because they have a "Significant" impact on the mentoring group.

If I set the mentoring group with 2 Influential players + 2 Other players and the impact was only Average or Light, determination attribute dropped every time when, for example, there were Determination attributes of 18, 17 and 10, 11. It always dropped to influential players because they were not leaders and they were affected by two other players as they were close to each other in terms of hierarchy.

I'm not an exact expert but I think it's not necessary to create mentoring groups for all players. I have only three right now for example.

You can see it really works, it only needs more patient than in previous editions.

Just take look at this my player. Determination attribute up by 4 in three years.

[dking]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

 

Yes, I have seen determination rise (and personalities change) by setting up Mentoring groups.  Out of interest are you keeping similar players in Mentoring groups (eg., defenders with defenders, forwards with forwards) or are you mixing the Groups up by placing defenders in with forwards, goalkeepers in with any other position and so on?  In other words place any influential player regardless of position in with anyone else?

The reason I ask is because I've seen similar comments to yours and it turned out some people had been taking an influential goalkeeper (for example) and putting him into groups with players who were not goalkeepers.  Which is what we might have done in the old Tutoring system - just take any player with a good personality and use them as a Tutor.  But the intention of Mentoring is to keep similar players together in order for them to bond and work together as a unit, which they can't really do if your young forwards are being mentored by an ageing goalkeeper or defender.

I'm not mixing the groups and never have. I've always had gk, def, cm, fw. Always made sure that the most influential player has had higher det stats and a good attitude.

I could possibly have gone wrong by putting too many players in one group, but other than that I'm really not sure. I'll mess around with it a bit more as I've just started a new save.

What sort of eta are we looking at to see any development? I know it takes longer than previous versions.

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, dking said:

I'm not mixing the groups and never have. I've always had gk, def, cm, fw. Always made sure that the most influential player has had higher det stats and a good attitude.

Good .

12 minutes ago, dking said:

I could possibly have gone wrong by putting too many players in one group

I've done that plenty of times.  It's not a hard and fast rule, but I now wouldn't have more than 3, possibly 4, young non-influential players in with one senior highly influential player.  Also be careful of older influential players with poor determination/personality as they could bring down players you don't want affected.

16 minutes ago, dking said:

What sort of eta are we looking at to see any development?

About as long as a piece of string is .  I'd probably check every 2 or 3 months, but wouldn't expect much for 6-12 months.

As an aside, I've seen people comment that fining players for poor performance can have an impact on boosting determination, which may help things along with your squad profile.  I'd probably exercise a bit of caution with that though in case you upset players.

[dking]

On 13/06/2019 at 11:04, herne79 said:

Good .

I've done that plenty of times.  It's not a hard and fast rule, but I now wouldn't have more than 3, possibly 4, young non-influential players in with one senior highly influential player.  Also be careful of older influential players with poor determination/personality as they could bring down players you don't want affected.

About as long as a piece of string is .  I'd probably check every 2 or 3 months, but wouldn't expect much for 6-12 months.

As an aside, I've seen people comment that fining players for poor performance can have an impact on boosting determination, which may help things along with your squad profile.  I'd probably exercise a bit of caution with that though in case you upset players.

Well I've tried everything again and players in the groups aren't losing determination, in fact a couple have improved it. However, a couple of players that aren't in those groups (first team) are losing determination. All my coaches are top quality with really good personalities as are ALL my players.

Why would professional and determined, world class players be losing determination so rapidly in a determined squad with world class coaches. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by dking

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, dking said:

Why would professional and determined, world class players be losing determination so rapidly in a determined squad with world class coaches

How much are they losing?  Over what time period?  How do they now compare to the rest of your squad?  Could you post some screenshots of line graphs for players who have lost some Determination?  And your squad list showing every player's current Determination?

[Tyburn]

I’ve noticed the determination drop is strongly linked to my captain. If my captain has determination of 14 for example then high determination players slowly over time seem to drop to around my captains level. Pick a high determined captain and it should make a difference.

[maccataq]

I think I understand the determination drops (and increases) in so much as there is an average level across the squad so you tend to see players with low determination only rise and players with high determination only drop. It kind of makes sense although I feel it should be more nuanced than that and maybe it is to be fair.

What I find annoying though is how is a newgen player supposed to retain a high determination? I have a newgen player come through my academy with a determination of 20. His determination remained at 20 for a couple of seasons but then dropped by one when he went on loan. He had another loan but remained at 19 and thanks to his great development I brought in to be my 2nd choice RB but towards the end of that season it dropped again. By the next season he was my first choice RB and his determination has dropped again now sitting at 17. He is now 20 years old, he is a perfectionist and is described as a wonderkid. I have never put him into a mentoring group because I didn't see how he could benefit.

The general levels of determination in my first team squad are good with my captains and team leaders all at 15, one has 14. I don't really see how many teams could have much higher determination but obviously some will have a player at 20 to maintain them but will even they be subject to determination decreases?

My conclusion so far that it is impossible for a young player to come through and retain 20 determination.

[nully29]

On 19/07/2019 at 15:17, Tyburn said:

I’ve noticed the determination drop is strongly linked to my captain. If my captain has determination of 14 for example then high determination players slowly over time seem to drop to around my captains level. Pick a high determined captain and it should make a difference.

Quoted for truth. It has worked for me. 

 

1. Always pick the most determined guy as a captain.

2. Disregard any "guru" who suggests choosing captain based on personality, leadership or anything else. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by nully29

[Miraculix]

My players determination are increasing, but I don't have a very determined captain. My backroom staff have good personalities maybe that has something to do with it?

 

 

 

[HUNT3R]

On 08/08/2020 at 21:56, Miraculix said:

My backroom staff have good personalities maybe that has something to do with it?

No, it won't be your staff. They don't affect player personalities.

It's either going to be the squad's overall personality or that they're each taking after an influential player in the team.

 

[Miraculix]

 

7 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

No, it won't be your staff. They don't affect player personalities.

It's either going to be the squad's overall personality or that they're each taking after an influential player in the team.

I see. Thanks for clarification.

I wished, the backroom staff would affect players personalities as I think that would make sense and ad to the realism. Surely coaches irl plays a big part in motivating and creating a winning DNA throughout a club.

Coaches besides the HOYD will have an influence on newgens personalities when they are being created. Or is this also just in my mind? 

[HUNT3R]

8 hours ago, Miraculix said:

Coaches besides the HOYD will have an influence on newgens personalities when they are being created. Or is this also just in my mind? 

Here's what I do know:

@herne79 (who knows this area much better than myself) has confirmed that coaches have some influence on juniors (newgens before they appear) too:

Quote

For the creation of newgens other staff can influence personality, however HoYD influence is far greater than anyone else (double the influence iirc).  Seb's confirmed that before.

@Seb Wassell I assume has seen this as he quoted a section out of this same post, but didn't specifically confirm it himself in the thread. I do take Herne's word for it though. Like I said, he is much more clued up on this area than most, so I have no reason to doubt him.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Here's what I do know:

@herne79 (who knows this area much better than myself) has confirmed that coaches have some influence on juniors (newgens before they appear) too:

@Seb Wassell I assume has seen this as he quoted a section out of this same post, but didn't specifically confirm it himself in the thread. I do take Herne's word for it though. Like I said, he is much more clued up on this area than most, so I have no reason to doubt him.

Yeh, unless something's changed I haven't heard about (always likely!) youth staff can influence newgens as well as the HoYD, although the HoYD has a much greater impact (double iirc).  That's from Seb (albeit a little old now) but as far as I'm aware still valid.  Seb'll correct me if it's outdated.