Overwhelmed by the feedback (Shout)

[Vinnyvagus77]

Anyone else notices your player's body language says that they are Overwhelmed by the feedback when you do a touchline shout?

 

I "shouted to them" to concentrate - and all of a sudden by Borussia Dortmund side are overwhelmed by that.  Is this a bad thing?  I'm considering not shouting to "concentrate" when I'm winning now if it is.

[RodentofDoom]

Sounds odd, but i believe "Concentrate" to be a 'focus on keeping a lead' shout too, pretty much the same deal as 'tighten up'.

Was it all the squad, or just a few of them?

What was their body language before the TLS?

Do you get a similar response under similar conditions with "tighten up" ??

What sort of responses do you get with other shouts ?

 

I can't check this myself as Im still playing with 18 and it may be a while before I upgrade versions.

[wardog]

Noticed this with a few players at bayern. Always with a concentrate shout or if I've thrown a few out

[Neopherus]

I told Pereira at Man Utd "No Pressure" because he seemed nervous. Made him overwhelmed in the first half, but he got an assist in the second. Don't think it means too much tbh.

[anagain]

If I shout Concentrate or Encourage then the majority of my team will show 'overwhelmed'. My most positive shouts so far have been demand more and show more passion.

[alian62]

On 20/10/2018 at 03:45, Vinnyvagus77 said:

Anyone else notices your player's body language says that they are Overwhelmed by the feedback when you do a touchline shout?

 

I "shouted to them" to concentrate - and all of a sudden by Borussia Dortmund side are overwhelmed by that.  Is this a bad thing?  I'm considering not shouting to "concentrate" when I'm winning now if it is.

Always though concentrate was a single player shout as when he does a dumb pass or shot on goal etc you can tell him to concentrate

[anagain]

I'm starting to see team shouts much different in FM19. In previous FMs I've always used them as a blanket shout to the whole team; a way to boost performance or let them know I'm not happy.

Since we now see the the feedback, and since seeing the comments from @prot651(above), I've been experimenting with individual shouts to one or a few players when I see something I want to highlight. Should a defender miss an interception I'll tell them to concentrate immediately. Should a winger put in a really good cross then I'll praise them. I'm quite happy with the results so far, and it leaves the team open for more shouts should I need them. When I blanket shout it freezes me out for a good 15 minutes of play. If I focus my shout on one player I can still get another message across to his colleagues.

I'm still a bit puzzled what to do with the encourage shout. It just never works. Always produces a body language result of feeling pressured. Why that would be I don't know.

I think concentrated shouts are the way forward.

[WM]

How many shouts are you guys giving?

[Vinnyvagus77]

On 20/10/2018 at 00:25, RodentofDoom said:

Sounds odd, but i believe "Concentrate" to be a 'focus on keeping a lead' shout too, pretty much the same deal as 'tighten up'.

Was it all the squad, or just a few of them?

What was their body language before the TLS?

Do you get a similar response under similar conditions with "tighten up" ??

What sort of responses do you get with other shouts ?

 

I can't check this myself as Im still playing with 18 and it may be a while before I upgrade versions.

It's generally to all players and then they all say they are overwhelmed. I was winning which is why i shouted this, telling them to concentrate as it was just a 1 goal lead at the time.

 

One thing I have noticed in FM19 that's worked well is if I am 2 goals up I PRAISE the team and their body language is "Fired up and motivated" so I've used this a few time as and gone on to score another goal or two.

[Rayista Geoff]

Just to throw in another couple of pieces of data on this, as I really wish I understood this better:  the only thing I've consistently been able to get positive reactions from is "Get Creative" (usually early-ish on in the match), which almost always produces an "inspired" reaction, and "Demand More", which almost always produces a "focused" reaction.  (Need to try that 'praise' thing.) 

Bear in mind because I'm sure it's relevant:  I'm playing as Sporting in Portugal, so I'm the favorite in most games and therefore expected to win. 

[HUNT3R]

Context is, as always, key. Look at your players. Look at the context of the match.

[Rayista Geoff]

17 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Context is, as always, key. Look at your players. Look at the context of the match.

Yeah, I don't doubt that's true, but context has so many elements to it it's hard sort out relevant from confounding factors, so it's really hard to be methodical. 

So here's one case that comes to mind because I've done it a lot:  I've just gone 2-0 up, and right from the kickoff the opponents almost score (or do score) from a defensive lapse.  I do a general shout of "concentrate" (because you're often vulnerable right after you score) and I've never gotten a positive reaction.  I've got a "professional" overall team mentality and I'm expected to win the match.  I'm sort of expecting that to get the "focused" reaction, but it never does, and it usually gets a negative reaction. 

Obviously, then, there's some aspect to the context that I'm not thinking of, but it's hard to think about what it is.  One thing I do know is that I don't have a lot of players with high 'leadership' (though my starting 11 are mostly team leaders and highly influential players, and nobody's lower than 'influential').  Is any of that relevant?  Other attributes?  Composure?  Like I say, most of my individual players seem to have high professionalism and decent determination.

Any hints about how to think about this gratefully received.

[mhaffy]

I rarely used shouts in previous versions of FM but have found them to be extremely useful in FM19. You do need to avoid using them too often though to avoid causing "frustration"/ "overwhelmed" effect which can lead to conceding! I suggest waiting at least 20 minutes between shouts. I tend to use "demand more", "show some passion" or "encourage but only apply selectively - if player is already motivated then exclude applying shout to him.

 

[HUNT3R]

13 hours ago, Rayista Geoff said:

So here's one case that comes to mind because I've done it a lot:  I've just gone 2-0 up, and right from the kickoff the opponents almost score (or do score) from a defensive lapse.  I do a general shout of "concentrate" (because you're often vulnerable right after you score) and I've never gotten a positive reaction.  I've got a "professional" overall team mentality and I'm expected to win the match.  I'm sort of expecting that to get the "focused" reaction, but it never does, and it usually gets a negative reaction. 

They've just conceded though. Of course they will now be paying attention after conceding a goal. With Concentrate, you're asking players to concentrate and not lose focus because a mistake or switching off could mean a goal against. That goal has already happened. The timing is completely off.

[dcaine100]

On 19/10/2018 at 20:45, Vinnyvagus77 said:

Anyone else notices your player's body language says that they are Overwhelmed by the feedback when you do a touchline shout?

 

I "shouted to them" to concentrate - and all of a sudden by Borussia Dortmund side are overwhelmed by that.  Is this a bad thing?  I'm considering not shouting to "concentrate" when I'm winning now if it is.

Get exactly the same, worked as you would expect in FM18 but in 19 all players become overwhelmed everytime Ive tried it, it crazy! 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, dcaine100 said:

Get exactly the same, worked as you would expect in FM18 but in 19 all players become overwhelmed everytime Ive tried it, it crazy! 

The feedback wasn't there in FM18 though, so you didn't really know if it was working as expected.

[johnsie]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

They've just conceded though. Of course they will now be paying attention after conceding a goal. With Concentrate, you're asking players to concentrate and not lose focus because a mistake or switching off could mean a goal against. That goal has already happened. The timing is completely off.

...If you just conceded a goal due to not concentrating you'd want to concentrate to not concede another one or to perhaps score one. lol Realistically there's nothing wrong with that shout, the only context here is the artificiality of the game. Arguing redundancy resulting in players feeling overwhelmed is an underwhelming argument.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, johnsie said:

...If you just conceded a goal due to not concentrating you'd want to concentrate to not concede another one or to perhaps score one. lol Realistically there's nothing wrong with that shout, the only context here is the artificiality of the game.

Nothing wakes you up more as a player than just conceding. Whether it's a mistake, complacency etc, you snap out of it when you concede.

[johnsie]

So the body language status of players changes correspondingly without shouting after conceding? Sounds like players naturally gain a boost after conceding in FM19.

[HUNT3R]

15 minutes ago, johnsie said:

So the body language status of players changes correspondingly without shouting after conceding? Sounds like players naturally gain a boost after conceding in FM19.

It's been like this for years. Players lose and gain confidence, motivation, focus etc in a match based on what happens.

[johnsie]

39 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The feedback wasn't there in FM18 though, so you didn't really know if it was working as expected.

What has been that way for years? Changes without feedback? Players are reporting differences in FM19. I also do recall feedback in FM18 and probably earlier.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, johnsie said:

What has been that way for years? Changes without feedback? Players are reporting differences in FM19. I also do recall feedback in FM18 and probably earlier.

Exactly what you asked - that players' body language change.  The only addition in FM19 is that we now have feedback on the touchline shouts. Team talk feedback isn't new and Body Language isn't new.

[johnsie]

Wasn't body language feedback on shouts?

[HUNT3R]

29 minutes ago, johnsie said:

Wasn't body language feedback on shouts?

No. Body Language is the overall body language of a player. You never got the "overwhelmed by feedback", "focus after feedback" (which I just had using Concentrate), "inspired by feedback" etc directly after a touchline shout before FM19.

[johnsie]

The status definitely changed after shouts sometimes. "Fired up", not "frustrated", "motivated", etc. There were colors to indicate positive and negative too. So you're saying that previous FMs had effects that were not conveyed but were still in the game? That seems weird.

So what changes now after your opponent scores a goal and your players apparently concentrate?

[HUNT3R]

Just now, johnsie said:

The status definitely changed after shouts sometimes. "Fired up", not "frustrated", "motivated", etc. There were colors to indicate positive and negative too. So you're saying that previous FMs had effects that were not conveyed but were still in the game? That seems weird.

I'd argue that you'd see those after match events, not from a touchline shout.

[johnsie]

I'm pretty sure I'd see those after the shout goes through. I often use "full match" so I'm well aware of the difference. It's also remarkable that the implication is shouts have been a mystery for years.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, johnsie said:

So what changes now after your opponent scores a goal and your players apparently concentrate?

I'm not sure why you say "now". I assume you mean FM19? Nothing different to 18, 17 ...

Let's say your entire team is "looking complacent". They won't be after conceding a goal.

It's literally only the feedback on a touchline shout that is new. Players' reactions and body language itself is still what it was before.

I just had a match where I was leading 2-0 with 10 mins to go. I had 3 players who were "looking complacent". The others were composed. So, I used Concentrate on the entire team. One was overwhelmed, but was understandable as he'd just come on and he receive an Assertive "I expect a performance" talk so he would have had high motivation and concentration already. Another player had "focused after feedback" which told me it "worked" on him and one of the complacent players weren't looking complacent anymore.

[Rayista Geoff]

4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

They've just conceded though. Of course they will now be paying attention after conceding a goal. With Concentrate, you're asking players to concentrate and not lose focus because a mistake or switching off could mean a goal against. That goal has already happened. The timing is completely off.

 

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Nothing wakes you up more as a player than just conceding. Whether it's a mistake, complacency etc, you snap out of it when you concede.

Right, so how do we know this if we've never been footballers at any significant level?  How does the game tell us this?  (I don't think I've ever seen just out of the blue (i.e. not being under the influence of a shout) someone's body language going to 'focused'.)  I can easily imagine that if you've just gone 2-0 up and you're pegged back immediately that you'd get even more nervous and unfocused because you're under more pressure. 

Maybe it's a question of down the line doing more with the 'body language' indicators?  Though I can imagine that it's hard to do that without then getting into something that's so explicit that it's easily 'gameable'.  It's just one of those things that I always find a bit frustrating about the game (and, ironically, more so the better it's gotten).  I get the sense that 'under the hood' decisions have been made about what's 'intuitive' or 'obvious' (not just with respect to this issue but in other places too), but if I don't share those intuitions it's hard to figure out systematically how to work things out.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Rayista Geoff said:

 

Right, so how do we know this if we've never been footballers at any significant level? 

 

I know this even from playing at an amateur level.

Just now, Rayista Geoff said:

How does the game tell us this? 

Look at my earlier example : 

Just now, HUNT3R said:

Let's say your entire team is "looking complacent". They won't be after conceding a goal.

That's where Determination also kicks in. Some will be calm. Some composed. The Determined players might even be Fired Up or Motivated.

[johnsie]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm not sure why you say "now". I assume you mean FM19? Nothing different to 18, 17 ...

Let's say your entire team is "looking complacent". They won't be after conceding a goal.

It's literally only the feedback on a touchline shout that is new. Players' reactions and body language itself is still what it was before.

I just had a match where I was leading 2-0 with 10 mins to go. I had 3 players who were "looking complacent". The others were composed. So, I used Concentrate on the entire team. One was overwhelmed, but was understandable as he'd just come on and he receive an Assertive "I expect a performance" talk so he would have had high motivation and concentration already. Another player had "focused after feedback" which told me it "worked" on him and one of the complacent players weren't looking complacent anymore.

So both the body language response to a conceded goal and the negative reaction to a redundant or "over-pressuring" shout is the same but in FM19 the specific shout feedback informs you that there is a further negative reaction to your shout?

[johnsie]

6 minutes ago, Rayista Geoff said:

I get the sense that 'under the hood' decisions have been made about what's 'intuitive' or 'obvious' (not just with respect to this issue but in other places too), but if I don't share those intuitions it's hard to figure out systematically how to work things out.

Right, it might not be that hard to figure some things out but it's definitely not obvious or necessarily realistic.

[Rayista Geoff]

14 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's where Determination also kicks in. Some will be calm. Some composed. The Determined players might even be Fired Up or Motivated.

Indeed. And those additions are really helpful. Though that reminds me of another question: what's the difference between 'fired up' and 'motivated'? They're both green, and therefore positive. Maybe 'fired up' affects decisions, like more likely to hard tackle?

19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I know this even from playing at an amateur level.

Yeah, I probably should have said 'at all'. I last played competitive football 35 years ago in a league that was supposed to be about learning teamwork, with unlimited substitutions and everyone had to play at least one half. Nothing was ever said about tactics and I can now see from memories of how we set up and the role names that we were playing a 60's style 4-2-4. So I'm not coming at this with much background 

[Tajerio]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I know this even from playing at an amateur level.

With all due respect, this is anecdotal.  You and your teammates having experienced a feeling of further concentration after conceding doesn't make it a blanket rule for all footballers.  All it means is that it's one possible response.  I'll concede it's the more likely one, particularly for professionals.  But to claim, by implication, that for every player, in every situation, the response to conceding is to buckle down and focus--that to me seems wholly unsupportable.  I'm willing to bet that, given the number of times that a team has scored two goals in quick succession, some discouraged disengagement has happened now and again.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Tajerio said:

With all due respect, this is anecdotal.  You and your teammates having experienced a feeling of further concentration after conceding doesn't make it a blanket rule for all footballers.  All it means is that it's one possible response.  I'll concede it's the more likely one, particularly for professionals.  But to claim, by implication, that for every player, in every situation, the response to conceding is to buckle down and focus--that to me seems wholly unsupportable.  I'm willing to bet that, given the number of times that a team has scored two goals in quick succession, some discouraged disengagement has happened now and again.

Anecdotal, but if you read on, I also gave you an in-game example. What I did claim was that every player will attempt to focus more after conceding a goal. It's just logic. The mentally weaker players could become nervous though. But, again, as I keep saying - you will need to look at the context. And even if a player is nervous, it will have nothing to do with concentration, but more pressure.

[Danielfc]

This is my situation. Whether I am running away with the league with Newcastle or battling low down the league, whether I am winning by three goals or behind by three or indeed drawing...my players are ALWAYS FRUSTRATED or OVERWHELMED with the feedback UNLESS  I shout ''demand more''. There is absolutely NO scenario or situation where DEMAND more does not fire my squad up - whetehr I am winning, losing, drawing, whether I am low down the league or high up. If I score and PRAISE, they get frustrated. If I am winning five njil and demand more, they get fired up . System is flawed and terrible but at least I know how to use it (wrongly). 

[HUNT3R]

47 minutes ago, Danielfc said:

If I score and PRAISE, they get frustrated.

I've just done this about 5 mins ago and manage to get a good response, so it isn't always the case.

[Johnny Ace]

I use Praise after making a comeback to good effect

[Danielfc]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

I've just done this about 5 mins ago and manage to get a good response, so it isn't always the case.

Yeah mate don't worry I wasn't saying it is always the case for everyone else (see: first sentence of my ''rant''). However, it is always the case for ''my situation''

Unfortunately, having had several other issues and uploaded a few of my game files, the game is and has let me down somewhat with its issues.

I am still enjoying it though although it would have been nice to qualify for Europe having Won the Carabao Cup and take in the millions in revenue from it. Would have been great if I had been awarded a penalty in my first season with Willian Jose to appease the promise I made to him. Would have been nice if I didn't get knocked out the Cup having made a promise to the best young keeper in the world to start him in cups before he had the chance to appear, then he got upset and subsequently forces his way out and becoming the best in the world elsewhere. Wouldn't been great if a LW - LB partnership didn't turn from a 3 year strong partnership to ''untested'' as if they had never played together before. But yeah. Still enjoying it....

[alian62]

Amazes me how you can get frustrated by encouragement

[HUNT3R]

2 hours ago, prot651 said:

Amazes me how you can get frustrated by encouragement

Why can't you get frustrated by it?

[alian62]

4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Why can't you get frustrated by it?

Its a contradiction 

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, prot651 said:

Its a contradiction 

It isn't. If you can go into more detail, then a discussion around it can start. 

[Danielfc]

15 hours ago, prot651 said:

Amazes me how you can get frustrated by encouragement

My mother used to encourage me to do my homework. She'd also encourage me to eat my greens. Eventually, the encouragement came across as nagging to me. In other words - frustrating. I guess it is like that. 

Hopefully the players will one day feel like I do now...how I wish I listened to her  (to be fair I was busy playing Champ Man, tearing up the Prem with Bakircioglu, Mark Kerr and TonTon Zola Moukoko)

[rain94]

If a player is Nervous, how can I cure it? I was playing in Cup Semi finals at home going into the leg up 2-1 on agg.  I had a player in the 1st half playing as D-Mid (Anchor) and my team conceded. He then became nervous. So I shouted only to him (everyone else were composed) No Pressure and there was no effect. Then half-time pep talk I told him same thing, calmly no pressure and no effect. He comes out in 2nd half and I shout at him again, No pressure, and he becomes Disinterested according to the body language. 

The player is 23, good for my division according to my scout. No hates big matches trait, is fairly determined and bravery at 14. 

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, rain94 said:

If a player is Nervous, how can I cure it? I was playing in Cup Semi finals at home going into the leg up 2-1 on agg.  I had a player in the 1st half playing as D-Mid (Anchor) and my team conceded. He then became nervous. So I shouted only to him (everyone else were composed) No Pressure and there was no effect. Then half-time pep talk I told him same thing, calmly no pressure and no effect. He comes out in 2nd half and I shout at him again, No pressure, and he becomes Disinterested according to the body language. 

The player is 23, good for my division according to my scout. No hates big matches trait, is fairly determined and bravery at 14. 

Find out WHY he is nervous first. It's either pressure or confidence. You've already identified what happened to him that caused the nerves and it's very clearly (to me) not pressure.

[rain94]

 

7 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Find out WHY he is nervous first. It's either pressure or confidence. You've already identified what happened to him that caused the nerves and it's very clearly (to me) not pressure.

Thanks. I don't mind this aspect of the game at all in regards to how it's not black and white. I like that there is some grey area involved or else it would make it too simple.  I just needed to know how detailed you guys modeled behavior/body language so I can put my mind on that frequency when playing rather than assume that it's a bug.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, rain94 said:

 

Thanks. I don't mind this aspect of the game at all in regards to how it's not black and white. I like that there is some grey area involved or else it would make it too simple.  I just needed to know how detailed you guys modeled behavior/body language so I can put my mind on that frequency when playing rather than assume that it's a bug.

No worries. A lot of this is just my own observations. I tend to pay attention to match events, body language and also team talk feedback and motivation/confidence levels before a match. All this information is available in the game. It is up to us as managers to connect the dots.

[rain94]

After experimenting for awhile with the Encourage shout, I finally found what it's supposed to be used for. I have found some success when my team is the underdog (ie Me as Palace vs Liverpool) whilst using Encourage shout. Players become "Fired up by the feedback" and "Motivated". 

[Berri90]

On 20/10/2018 at 06:45, Vinnyvagus77 said:

Anyone else notices your player's body language says that they are Overwhelmed by the feedback when you do a touchline shout?

 

I "shouted to them" to concentrate - and all of a sudden by Borussia Dortmund side are overwhelmed by that.  Is this a bad thing?  I'm considering not shouting to "concentrate" when I'm winning now if it is.

I have the same problem with Wolfsburg. We are leading with 5 mins to go. I tell them to concentrate and they are overwhelmed. I have found "demand more" or "praise" sees to work.