My initial thoughts of FM 2019 (Alpha)

[themadsheep2001]

10 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Not sure what im more excited about... Playing the beta release... Or coming here to see the meltdown (or both.. Play and join in the meltdown) 

I honestly think the templates are going to show that a subsection of the user base do not understand tactical management as much as they think. And its going to be horrendous as a result

[treble_yell_:-)]

59 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I have no idea, but what's being said is true - don't expect plug and play perfection. It's a starting point. You may or may not have to tweak.

I mean I agree , folk are going to want to make tweaks but in don't think it's fair to say "ohb these are just starting templates" when SI have put a lot of effort ( and it's been the focus of the marketing) on these presets. They didn't make videos showing how the geggenpress preset should play but secretly is not and you've just to guess the rest.

 

The end user may have a different vision to how tiki taka should be setup and play , but it's clear that these are absolutely meant to be plug and play representations of currently popular philosophies.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

I mean I agree , folk are going to want to make tweaks but in don't think it's fair to say "ohb these are just starting templates" when SI have put a lot of effort ( and it's been the focus of the marketing) on these presets. They didn't make videos showing how the geggenpress preset should play but secretly is not and you've just to guess the rest.

 

The end user may have a different vision to how tiki taka should be setup and play , but it's clear that these are absolutely meant to be plug and play representations of currently popular philosophies.

They are absolutely not meant to be plug and play. For a start there are two teams on the pitch.

They may not exactly fit what your team is capable of. it might not even be the right style of play against the opposition.

It's a starting point, that may or may not work straight off the bat for you, but it absolutely don't mean you wont have to adjust for personell or opposition

[treble_yell_:-)]

5 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

They are absolutely not meant to be plug and play. For a start there are two teams on the pitch.

They may not exactly fit what your team is capable of. it might not even be the right style of play against the opposition.

Those are different points though.

The Tiki Taka preset is a ready setup representation of what SI see Tika Taka as in the game. 

Not having the players or having to react to the opposition isn't worth bringing up as it's something you adapt to no matter the tactic used.

You're arguing that SI made these presets , highlighted them in the marketing as one of the main new features and created animated displays on how the preset *should* play out but that that's not really what it is.

 

Plug and play was the wrong term to use, but they're not a "rough guide"

[kingking]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

 They are absolutely not meant to be plug and play. For a start there are two teams on the pitch.

 They may not exactly fit what your team is capable of. it might not even be the right style of play against the opposition.

 It's a starting point, that may or may not work straight off the bat for you, but it absolutely don't mean you wont have to adjust for personell or opposition

My main point is that i want them to "work" meaning that the ME has the ability to implement them  without there being a bug or flaw in the ME (assuming all the other factors such as your team, players and opposition are right)

I don't want the ME to be flawed when pressing despite the user doing everything right.

FM 2018 struggles to Overlap or Underlap, that is an example of a flawed ME, not just about the team you pick

Lets assume a scenario where you choose a good tactic, the right players and they are in the right conditions such as mood, fitness and moral and you are  against a weak opponent  

then the ME should have the ability and accuracy to implement a realistic Tiki-Taka or Gegenpress

[HUNT3R]

Just now, treble_yell_:-) said:

Those are different points though.

The Tiki Taka preset is a ready setup representation of what SI see Tika Taka as in the game. 

Not having the players or having to react to the opposition isn't worth bringing up as it's something you adapt to no matter the tactic used.

You're arguing that SI made these presets , highlighted them in the marketing as one of the main new features and created animated displays on how the preset *should* play out but that that's not really what it is.

 

Plug and play was the wrong term to use, but they're not a "rough guide"

They're a starting point. Whatever you want to call it, it is what it is. It isn't going to be a perfect tactic meaning you'll win every match. It'll try to play out what the preset shows - as said - considering player quality and the actual setup. 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, kingking said:

FM 2018 struggles to Overlap or Underlap, that is an example of a flawed ME, not just about the team you pick

It doesn't though. 

 

Just now, kingking said:

Lets assume a scenario where you choose a good tactic, the right players and they are in the right conditions such as mood, fitness and moral and you are  against a weak opponent  

then the ME should have the ability and accuracy to implement a realistic Tiki-Taka or Gegenpress

Then that is what would happen. Don't forget the other 11 players though.

[DP]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

They're a starting point.

I struggle to see them as a ‘starting point’ when so many TIs - as well as player roles and duties - have been defined. It already looks like the purest implementation of each. Yes you can tweak but they are already comprehensive in terms of their detail. 

Not complaining at all tbf. I think it’s the right thing to do. 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, DP said:

I struggle to see them as a ‘starting point’ when so many TIs - as well as player roles and duties - have been defined. It already looks like the purest implementation of each. Yes you can tweak but they are already comprehensive in terms of their detail. 

Not complaining at all tbf. I think it’s the right thing to do. 

You can struggle, but it is just that - a starting poing, ie not a perfect tactic. You see some of the tactics having a double W/A. Can both of your wingers play that way? etc.

[DP]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

You can struggle, but it is just that - a starting poing, ie not a perfect tactic. You see some of the tactics having a double W/A. Can both of your wingers play that way? etc.

You seem to be debating in extremes. I’m not saying it’s a perfect tactic but it looks far more comprehensive than a starting point with the detail in the TIs. 

Why couldn’t the wingers play like that? 

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, DP said:

You seem to be debating in extremes. I’m not saying it’s a perfect tactic but it looks far more comprehensive than a starting point with the detail in the TIs. 

Why couldn’t the wingers play like that? 

It's not anything near extremes. I do know GD though. I was simply saying it's a starting point. For some reason, you disagreed. I clearly did say it isn't going to be perfect - hence starting point. And as I also said, it's going to depend on your players.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

I started in 2008, so I don't know. From my understanding, it's always been worked on and improved, at least from CM4 days. Could be wrong here though. As I said, I got involved in FM around 2008. Still, the ME gets improved every year (except Fm11/12) so it's not correct to say it's the same ME.

I think there is still bits of code left over from the CM3 days as I don't think they have ever thrown out the entire ME and started again from scratch (unless they did when they split from Eidos to form FM but I think they kept the game code as well as the database with Eidos just getting the look and name).

So you'd have had major reversions for CM4 (2D pitch), FM09 (3D pitch) and then FM12 or FM13 (the one that everyone hates as you could no long just ghost through defenders when attacking) which added player collisions and FM18 switched to a new graphics engine with support for more modern versions of DirectX among other things, whilst the versions that introduced quick subs and shouts likely would have involved a lot of behind the scenes changes, and as you say it gets tweaked every year (and in most patches).

It will also depend on what you mean by the Match Engine - at the basic level there are three parts to it the underlying ME which plays out the match (and is the same regardless of whether you are using commentary, 2D or 3D views) then the graphic layer which links match events to the graphics/animations etc and on top of that you then have the actual animations, meshes, textures, shaders and lighting stuff.

32 minutes ago, Rub Rub said:

Look at PES, they made a new one using the fox engine in 2016, and it was a bit iffy, but the 18 and 19 version of the game is incredible and worth the work put in.

If SI want to still be at the forefront of the genre, they need to be making innovative stepts. Having a match engine that is 10+ years old, will not help. its a shame CM stopped because some competition would be good for the Genre

And the Fox engine cost over $100m and took five years to develop (work started in 2008 and PES14 in 2013 was the first game that used it and has then as you say has taken nearly five more years to actually work) and EA spend way more than that on FIFA ($250m for FIFA16), which is the kind of money that SI just don't have - FM is a niche title and it's sales are only a fraction of those seen by PES and FIFA.

[treble_yell_:-)]

6 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I was simply saying it's a starting point. For some reason, you disagreed. I clearly did say it isn't going to be perfect - hence starting point. And as I also said, it's golfing to depend on your players.

You are arguing different things. It can be both a ready to play version of Geggenpress / Tiki Taka / vertical Tiki Taka  AND completely unsuitable for your players. 

I assume these are your opinion on the matter and not SI's stance ? I'm watching the stream again and it seems clear between it and the FMShow video that the presets are absolutely meant to be something that a user who has no interest in messing around with tactics can choose and see ( players permitting) a recognisable representation of the style it's meant to imitate.

Si have always argued that you can just pick one of the default tactics in FM and go , that you don't need to tweak the crap out of everything to be successful , I can't see how that would change with these presets.

Edit - I don't think we are even really arguing different things , I 100% agree they aren't going to be PnP or that users aren't going to look at them and say " this isn't how a direct counter works" and start tweaking. I do however think they are there for users to be able to start a game , pick tiki taka and start signing players and see something that looks like Tiki Taka playing out on the ptch.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, treble_yell_:-) said:

You are arguing different things. It can be both a ready to play version of Geggenpress / Tiki Taka / vertical Tiki Taka  AND completely unsuitable for your players. 

I assume these are your opinion on the matter and not SI's stance ? I'm watching the stream again and it seems clear between it and the FMShow video that the presets are absolutely meant to be something that a user who has no interest in messing around with tactics can choose and see ( players permitting) a recognisable representation of the style it's meant to imitate.

Si have always argued that you can just pick one of the default tactics in FM and go , that you don't need to tweak the crap out of everything to be successful , I can't see how that would change with these presets.

We've all been saying the same thing. It'll be recognisable, quite obviously, but it's not plug and play. It's the starting point for a style of play. You may not need to "tweak the crap out of it" but it's not going to be a perfect pnp tactic.

[Amarante]

Funny how people are saying crosses are OP when in my FM18 saves barely concede from crosses and 90% of my goals came from passes through the middle or low cutbacks. People who claim crosses are OP aren't really watching the game and have no idea how stats are represented in the game. 

[trevjim]

6 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

I think there is still bits of code left over from the CM3 days as I don't think they have ever thrown out the entire ME and started again from scratch (unless they did when they split from Eidos to form FM but I think they kept the game code as well as the database with Eidos just getting the look and name).

So you'd have had major reversions for CM4 (2D pitch), FM09 (3D pitch) and then FM12 or FM13 (the one that everyone hates as you could no long just ghost through defenders when attacking) which added player collisions and FM18 switched to a new graphics engine with support for more modern versions of DirectX among other things, whilst the versions that introduced quick subs and shouts likely would have involved a lot of behind the scenes changes, and as you say it gets tweaked every year (and in most patches).

It will also depend on what you mean by the Match Engine - at the basic level there are three parts to it the underlying ME which plays out the match (and is the same regardless of whether you are using commentary, 2D or 3D views) then the graphic layer which links match events to the graphics/animations etc and on top of that you then have the actual animations, meshes, textures, shaders and lighting stuff.

And the Fox engine cost over $100m and took five years to develop (work started in 2008 and PES14 in 2013 was the first game that used it and has then as you say has taken nearly five more years to actually work) and EA spend way more than that on FIFA ($250m for FIFA16), which is the kind of money that SI just don't have - FM is a niche title and it's sales are only a fraction of those seen by PES and FIFA.

To be fair, in regards to the EA/Konami having more money point, there is a counter argument.

Firstly EA clearly invest more money into FIFA then PES gets from Konami, as reflected in the licenses etc, yet the game engine in PES is vastly superior.

Also (and this is a guess) I would imagine that more people play FM than PES (due to FIFA and PES splitting that market).

Another point, is that in PES, they also have to include user controlling the players, face models and eye movements, more ball physics and kit physics.

So it's all relative really.

I do believe people should stop making excuses for the ME in FM. It's clearly outdated and people have been very vocal in asking for a new one for 4 years now.

It hasn't really improved in that time, as there is still the same bugs such as crosses being over powered, defenders standing still, goalies not moving, players scoring quite often from "he didn't mean to do that be he won't care" 

[trevjim]

5 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Funny how people are saying crosses are OP when in my FM18 saves barely concede from crosses and 90% of my goals came from passes through the middle or low cutbacks. People who claim crosses are OP aren't really watching the game and have no idea how stats are represented in the game. 

That may be because of your tactics. Crosses are widely regarded as OP and almost an exploit. If you look at the most successful tactics on the community, then they are either 5 at the back with full backs providing crosses, or 3 forwards.

The AI defence struggles to handle overload of the wide areas

[HUNT3R]

Just now, trevjim said:

Crosses are widely regarded as OP and almost an exploit.

It could have been in 16.

[Amarante]

9 minutes ago, trevjim said:

To be fair, in regards to the EA/Konami having more money point, there is a counter argument.

Firstly EA clearly invest more money into FIFA then PES gets from Konami, as reflected in the licenses etc, yet the game engine in PES is vastly superior.

Also (and this is a guess) I would imagine that more people play FM than PES (due to FIFA and PES splitting that market).

Another point, is that in PES, they also have to include user controlling the players, face models and eye movements, more ball physics and kit physics.

So it's all relative really.

I do believe people should stop making excuses for the ME in FM. It's clearly outdated and people have been very vocal in asking for a new one for 4 years now.

It hasn't really improved in that time, as there is still the same bugs such as crosses being over powered, defenders standing still, goalies not moving, players scoring quite often from "he didn't mean to do that be he won't care" 

So lets get some things sorted out.  I'm a game developer and programmer by trade. 

 

1. In your opinion the PES engine is better than FIFA.

2. FIFA is being ran on Frostbyte 3 if i remember correctly. Dice the maker of the engine is being pump with millions each year to update maintain, create and all of that lovely stuff into the engine. FIFA/PES make way way way way more than FM. 

3. FM is sold to a small set of people which means its profits are lower. Now between paying staff, licenses fee, operational cost SI just doesn't have the money to A. Hire an entire team to work on Match Engine and the Graphical aspects of the game while B. Making whole sale changes within a time frame to hand it off to Sega. 

People think games just magical appear. They don't. They require time and money. Deadlines have to be met, money has to go into marketing while trying to keep the studio afloat until the next release. 

You want to know why Unreal Engine and  Unity are popular? Game Engines cost a fortune to create and maintain. EA canceled FIFA Manager because it wasn't profitable enough. EA is all about the money and they saw that management games don't make that much money. 

And FYI only the small sect of the community cares about having realistic graphics and stadiums. a high percentage watch games on 2D a next set know that the 3D is just a means to an end All they care about is there tactics are being represented properly and you can see that with 16bit pixels or photorealistic graphic. 

FM is not a casual game like PES or FIFA that caters to every single gamer/football fan that needs photoreasltic graphics to compete. Its for the small sect of us that wants to be the manager not the player. 

[treble_yell_:-)]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

It was in 16.

Bad times.

I do think it's been varying degrees of passable though. I think wide areas and defensive positioning is a legacy issue and one of the main reasons that the new ME was being worked on. I'm sure I read stuff PaulC had discussed around certain parts of the ME that ( for want of a better phrase) not fixable in the current engine.

 

I may be completely miss-remembering this stuff, I'm positive I read stuff from SI about the new engine and Rashidi had been talking about it as well

[Dagenham_Dave]

Having watched the various streams and videos by content creators, it feels as though SI have absolutely nailed this year's edition. The small UI things they've added this year completely blow FM18 out the water, and that's before you get to the main changes. I don't think I've ever looked forward to an FM game as much as this one. It's going to be a game changer this year IMO. 

[trevjim]

2 minutes ago, Amarante said:

So lets get some things sorted out.  I'm a game developer and programmer by trade. 

 

1. In your opinion the PES engine is better than FIFA.

2. FIFA is being ran on Frostbyte 3 if i remember correctly. Dice the maker of the engine is being pump with millions each year to update maintain, create and all of that lovely stuff into the engine. FIFA/PES make way way way way more than FM. 

3. FM is sold to a small set of people which means its profits are lower. Now between paying staff, licenses fee, operational cost SI just doesn't have the money to A. Hire an entire team to work on Match Engine and the Graphical aspects of the game while B. Making whole sale changes within a time frame to hand it off to Sega. 

People think games just magical appear. They don't. They require time and money. Deadlines have to be met, money has to go into marketing while trying to keep the studio afloat until the next release. 

You want to know why Unreal Engine and  Unity are popular? Game Engines cost a fortune to create and maintain. EA canceled FIFA Manager because it wasn't profitable enough. EA is all about the money and they saw that management games don't make that much money. 

I'm not saying it won't be expensive or alot of work, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse. Its an investment.

Each new car engine a manufacturer makes is a alot of work/risk/money, yet it's an investment and that engine can be used on many future cars. Eventually it becomes outdated/old technology and a new one needs to be made.

You said yourself that the match engine in FM hawks back to CM4. That's heavily outdated. Yes it's been improved and tweaked, but it is outdated and on its last legs.

The fans of the game have been calling out for a new ME for a long time now. SI have the market completely cornered and will at some point need to invest in a new ME.

It's clear from reading on here and other forums or even reddit, that with each unveiling of features each year, there are more and more groans that it's not enough. It's becoming more like a data update then a new game with every iteration

PES and FIFA has got the frostbite and fox engines in the past 10 years or so, and whilst I appreciate they are different types of games and funded differently, their Devs made that change improve their products.

 

 

[trevjim]

7 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Bad times.

I do think it's been varying degrees of passable though. I think wide areas and defensive positioning is a legacy issue and one of the main reasons that the new ME was being worked on. I'm sure I read stuff PaulC had discussed around certain parts of the ME that ( for want of a better phrase) not fixable in the current engine.

 

I may be completely miss-remembering this stuff, I'm positive I read stuff from SI about the new engine and Rashidi had been talking about it as well

Thank you, this is the point I am trying to make, the match engine is heavily outdated and on its last legs. Its limitations are showing.

There are fans on here with their heads in the sand that will blindly make excuses for the ME. 

[rdbayly]

9 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Having watched the various streams and videos by content creators, it feels as though SI have absolutely nailed this year's edition. The small UI things they've added this year completely blow FM18 out the water, and that's before you get to the main changes. I don't think I've ever looked forward to an FM game as much as this one. It's going to be a game changer this year IMO. 

I have to agree with these sentiments from what I've seen. Navigation seems way more intuitive and the match day experience puts FM18 in the bin on every level.

Good to see that players no longer run at this bizarre leaning forward angle ->    /

[treble_yell_:-)]

1 minute ago, trevjim said:

I'm not saying it won't be expensive or alot of work, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse. Its an investment.

Each new car engine a manufacturer makes is a alot of work/risk/money, yet it's an investment and that engine can be used on many future cars. Eventually it becomes outdated/old technology and a new one needs to be made.

You said yourself that the match engine in FM hawks back to CM4. That's heavily outdated. Yes it's been improved and tweaked, but it is outdated and on its last legs.

The fans of the game have been calling out for a new ME for a long time now. SI have the market completely cornered and will at some point need to invest in a new ME.

It's clear from reading on here and other forums or even reddit, that with each unveiling of features each year, there are more and more groans that it's not enough. It's becoming more like a data update then a new game with every iteration

PES and FIFA has got the frostbite and fox engines in the past 10 years or so, and whilst I appreciate they are different types of games and funded differently, their Devs made that change improve their products.

 

 

I agree, however it is also priced like one.

I paid £21 for FM19 so ymmv

 

 

[Rub Rub]

1 minute ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

I agree, however it is also priced like one.

I paid £21 for FM19 so ymmv

to be fair I got PES 19 for £22.99

[michaeltmurrayuk]

10 minutes ago, trevjim said:

To be fair, in regards to the EA/Konami having more money point, there is a counter argument.

Firstly EA clearly invest more money into FIFA then PES gets from Konami, as reflected in the licenses etc, yet the game engine in PES is vastly superior.

Also (and this is a guess) I would imagine that more people play FM than PES (due to FIFA and PES splitting that market).

Another point, is that in PES, they also have to include user controlling the players, face models and eye movements, more ball physics and kit physics.

So it's all relative really.

I do believe people should stop making excuses for the ME in FM. It's clearly outdated and people have been very vocal in asking for a new one for 4 years now.

It hasn't really improved in that time, as there is still the same bugs such as crosses being over powered, defenders standing still, goalies not moving, players scoring quite often from "he didn't mean to do that be he won't care" 

FM generally gets ~1m sales a year (and at a lower cost) a quick look around shows PES13 got 5.5m sales, PES14 got 3.8m, PES15 dropped to 1.8m and looks like PES18 got less than 1m so it's only the last version that has less sales than FM - but back when they started work on the fox engine PES was neck and neck with FIFA at over 6m sales, there is also the small matter of Konami also having the Metal Gear Solid sales to fall back on (and they charged the fox engine development costs against MGSV - so PES basically got a $100m engine for free).

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

FM generally gets ~1m sales a year (and at a lower cost) a quick look around shows PES13 got 5.5m sales, PES14 got 3.8m, PES15 dropped to 1.8m and looks like PES18 got less than 1m so it's only the last version that has less sales than FM - but back when they started work on the fox engine PES was neck and neck with FIFA at over 6m sales, there is also the small matter of Konami also having the Metal Gear Solid sales to fall back on (and they charged the fox engine development costs against MGSV - so PES basically got a $100m engine for free).

I'd really like to know where people think SI are going to pull $100m from too.

People saying "it's an investment", you actually need said fund to invest. SI's scale of investment is much lower, and as a result, the speed of development will reflect that

[Rub Rub]

1 minute ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

FM generally gets ~1m sales a year (and at a lower cost) a quick look around shows PES13 got 5.5m sales, PES14 got 3.8m, PES15 dropped to 1.8m and looks like PES18 got less than 1m so it's only the last version that has less sales than FM - but back when they started work on the fox engine PES was neck and neck with FIFA at over 6m sales, there is also the small matter of Konami also having the Metal Gear Solid sales to fall back on (and they charged the fox engine development costs against MGSV - so PES basically got a $100m engine for free).

how get pes get it for free when the company that owns pes made and paid for the engine? it all comes out of konamis account at the end of the day.

also im sure an engine used in an AAA title like fifa and pes cost a hell of a lot more than FM's

[Rub Rub]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I'd really like to know where people think SI are going to pull $100m from too.

where did you pull $100m from? who said thats how much it would cost. 

[treble_yell_:-)]

14 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Thank you, this is the point I am trying to make, the match engine is heavily outdated and on its last legs. Its limitations are showing.

There are fans on here with their heads in the sand that will blindly make excuses for the ME. 

I didn't say it's on it's last legs , I said there are some parts of the ME that Si have said in the past they have difficulty with but they have continued to work and tweak to make it the best it can be. We will know in afew days if 3 striker formations are still really effective or if it's still beneficial to overload the wide areas etc. SI haven't exactly hidden the fact the game has issues with certain things , I'm sure have all read well written and intelligent breaksdowns from prominent community members on the problems with defensive positioning over the years , but they have always tried to work towards making it better. Working with code built on top of old code on top of older code is a ballache and I reckon SI will be as desperate to get the new ME ready as we are , but it'll take time.

On the topic of the graphics - I still maintain they were pretty decent last year and looked ace in the streams. It is completely dragged down by the animations but w/e , the new lighting last year made a huge difference

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Rub Rub said:

where did you pull $100m from? who said thats how much it would cost. 

Lot's of people have previously said FM needs to catch up to the likes of PES visually. That's how much it cost Konami to do it

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Thank you, this is the point I am trying to make, the match engine is heavily outdated and on its last legs. Its limitations are showing.

There are fans on here with their heads in the sand that will blindly make excuses for the ME. 

Over the last few years SI have been working on solutions to take out legacy code that is holding back development of match simulation but that takes time, even if they magically had a £100m budget to get the job done it would be a multi-year job.

Take a step back & really consider what you’re asking because it’s essentially for SI to take on a huge debt & risk the studio going bust to rush through a job they are working towards at a pace they can afford.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Barside said:

Over the last few years SI have been working on solutions to take out legacy code that is holding back development of match simulation but that takes time, even if they magically had a £100m budget to get the job done it would be a multi-year job.

Take a step back & really consider what you’re asking because it’s essentially for SI to take on a huge debt & risk the studio going bust to rush through a job they are working towards at a pace they can afford.

I get that people always want improvements, and that's a good thing. But they often have no idea of the scale of what they are asking for.

[trevjim]

10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Lot's of people have previously said FM needs to catch up to the likes of PES visually. That's how much it cost Konami to do it

There are cheap mobile games that look better than FM. Let's not be melodramatic and expect it to cost 100 million. It doesn't need to be on par with PES, it just need to look an awful lot better than it does now

[Guest]

You know I want improvements that I feel are critical for my enjoyment however unlike some I’m happy to wait for SI to get to the point I’m would like them to be at with the simulation at their pace.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, trevjim said:

There are cheap mobile games that look better than FM. Let's not be melodramatic and expect it to cost 100 million. It doesn't need to be on par with PES, it just need to look an awful lot better than it does now

And they don't have to replicate a match engine. Even PES and FIFA can't do that. Moot point

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, trevjim said:

There are cheap mobile games that look better than FM. Let's not be melodramatic and expect it to cost 100 million. It doesn't need to be on par with PES, it just need to look an awful lot better than it does now

Would wager that this mobile title is skin deep & probably isn’t on par graphically either when you take a a closer look.

[trevjim]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

And they don't have to replicate a match engine. Even PES and FIFA can't do that. Moot point

Not really a moot point. The ME hasn't been changed for X amount of years, so despite improvements, they haven't had to invest money into making a new one. So the mobile game doesn't have to replicate a match engine you are correct, however FM already have a match engine, so there is no excuse for the graphics being sub par. 

And don't pull out the SI don't have funds card again. If indie Devs can make games on the android store look fantastic, then SI can too

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Not really a moot point. The ME hasn't been changed for X amount of years, so despite improvements, they haven't had to invest money into making a new one. So the mobile game doesn't have to replicate a match engine you are correct, however FM already have a match engine, so there is no excuse for the graphics being sub par. 

And don't pull out the SI don't have funds card again. If indie Devs can make games on the android store look fantastic, then SI can too

The graphics have to work with the match engine, its massive lines of code and the sheer variation it can spit out, and that's what makes it very difficult and costly. And indie devs arent trying to make the same kind of game, so again, it's not relevant. We've covered this already, so I'll leave you to it.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, trevjim said:

Not really a moot point. The ME hasn't been changed for X amount of years, so despite improvements, they haven't had to invest money into making a new one. So the mobile game doesn't have to replicate a match engine you are correct, however FM already have a match engine, so there is no excuse for the graphics being sub par. 

And don't pull out the SI don't have funds card again. If indie Devs can make games on the android store look fantastic, then SI can too

There's a difference between ME, GE and graphics. All of those HAVE changed over the years.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Guess I'm the only one who thinks the visuals are pretty decent these days 

[Amarante]

8 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Not really a moot point. The ME hasn't been changed for X amount of years, so despite improvements, they haven't had to invest money into making a new one. So the mobile game doesn't have to replicate a match engine you are correct, however FM already have a match engine, so there is no excuse for the graphics being sub par. 

And don't pull out the SI don't have funds card again. If indie Devs can make games on the android store look fantastic, then SI can too

 

Can you please please please stop saying the ME hasn't improve. Please say the graphical representation THIS IS the GRAPHICS hasn't changed. 

On your mobile games have better visuals most mobile games are being built on A. Cocos2D, Unity3D,Unreal Engine or some other third party engine that is being backed by a company which makes way more money than SI. Most hit mobile games make 3x the amount of money SI Does. 

You guys need to understand, it requires A: Man Power B Resources to overhaul an entire graphical engine. While also adding new features fixing bugs, all to meet a Nov Deadline. SI doesn't have the manpower to do this. EA,Konami employs teams of hundreds of people just to work on the game engine while a next few hundred work on the game. SI just can't match that. 

 

Maybe one day if they were to get an angel investor who will pump the millions needed to get the manpower so they can have a dedicated team to work on making the graphics on par with PES then complain until them. understand that this takes time it can't be change overnight. I believe the next major change in the graphical representation of the game we won't be having any new features or changes just that change for that year

[Mensell76]

Quick question, is pitch deterioration during rain or snowfall in this year's fm ? I did see some rainy matches but can't remember seeing browner, whiter or wetter pitches ?

 

[treble_yell_:-)]

Just saying - If you want to ( at least temporarily 0 end the madness , you could always release the Beta SI 

[Mensell76]

5 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Guess I'm the only one who thinks the visuals are pretty decent these days 

No you are not. I am reasonably happy with the visuals but the again I never played FIFA nor PES. ME visuals are good enough for me as long as the iceskating does not occur ;).

 I just wished SI would work on club development visuals (various sorts of training grounds with poor or better pitches, hybrid or artificial grass pitches, science headquarters, physio center, indoor fields etc ) so that we can actually visualise all of our investments in facilities. Again these visuals do not have to be state of the art but could make such a difference in the immersiveness of club management. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Not really a moot point. The ME hasn't been changed for X amount of years, so despite improvements, they haven't had to invest money into making a new one. So the mobile game doesn't have to replicate a match engine you are correct, however FM already have a match engine, so there is no excuse for the graphics being sub par. 

And don't pull out the SI don't have funds card again. If indie Devs can make games on the android store look fantastic, then SI can too

You’re digging yourself into a hole here, the lack of any knowledge of game development on your part is abundantly clear.

[trevjim]

6 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Just saying - If you want to ( at least temporarily 0 end the madness , you could always release the Beta SI 

Now that's something we can all agree on

[Amarante]

25 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Just saying - If you want to ( at least temporarily 0 end the madness , you could always release the Beta SI 

A think you will get a universal agreement on this. SI have taken a vacation for this. 

[canry]

I want play the game fluently, not anything else. fm 18 was not fluently. don't care about 3d match, tactics ...