What determines Youth Recruitment level?

[Bedese]

9 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

It's plausible the former is a factor. The board may feel that if you're using youth players and succeeding there's no need to upgrade it, whereas if you're signing players they may feel that the youth players your bringing through aren't good enough for the first team and would sanction the upgrade.

Were the players signed any better than the players that were already there?

It's a very good point. The players that were signed were decent, but none of them were significantly better than the players already at the club.

I think the only way to test this out is to actually try it for myself. Go back to the latest copy of the save I have before I resigned, and start to replay it - but this time, signing players. If AI teams don't have an inbuilt advantage, then the transfers made should make upgrading Youth Recruitment a possibility (presuming the transfers aren't all completely rubbish).

[Bedese]

So, just to test things out further, @BoxToBox kindly sent me over a copy of his save to run some tests on. 

I resigned in 2029, at which point Giza/Hoyvik had 3* reputation and 88 million in the bank, with basic Youth Recruitment.

Five years later with an AI manager? 3* reputation, a lot less money in the bank due to bringing players in - and, you guessed it. They've upgraded their Youth Recruitment.

Now, this one is less conclusive proof, because at the rate BoxtoBox is going, it's plausible that a Youth Recruitment upgrade may come soon (the AI managed Giza Hoyvik did manage to perform decently in Europe, although not as good as with a human manager) - but when you combine it with the information from the San Giovanni save, who definitely wouldn't have been able to upgrade their youth recruitment with a human manager - it seems very, very likely that the AI has an unfair advantage on the human player when it comes to upgrading Youth Recruitment.

[Bedese]

I've been going through the editor, trying to find something - anything - that might explain it.

There's no point looking at anything to do with the country, or the league, because that will have the same affect on all the teams. San Marino isn't a big enough country for location in the country to matter, either. No, the only thing that should be affecting why some teams can upgrade Youth Recruitment but not others are team variables. So, what are they?

 

• Name/Short name - I don't think so, somehow.
• Nickname - Well, maybe if I set San Giovanni's nickname to 'Give good youth players plz' we might get somewhere?
• Nation/City - Nope. Shouldn't make a difference.
• Year Founded - I doubt it.
• Status - See, this is interesting. It's not going to be this, because all the clubs in San Marino are professional in the San Giovanni save and a Semi-Pro team has been able to upgrade Youth Recruitment in the Giza/Hoyvik save, but one thing I did notice in the San Giovanni save is that it took me a long time to be able to turn Pro - in fact, nearly every other Sammarinese team had beaten me to it, despite having much smaller budgets. I didn't think about that much at the time, but is that another example of the AI having an advantage over the player? It seems plausible, for sure.
• Morale - Even if this did have anything to do with it, the far superior human controlled teams would have the highest morale regardless.
• Reputation - Well, the human controlled clubs have the highest reputation and are getting shafted. Can't be this.

 

• Ownership type - I don't know the differences between a Limited Liability Company or a Public Owned Company, but it's surely not going to be anything to do with this.
• Stadium - Nope. San Giovanni played in by far the biggest stadium in the league.
• Attendance - Again, San Giovanni had by far the highest attendance in the league.
• Training/Junior Coaching/Youth Facilities - Can't be. The human controlled clubs have been the ones with the far superior facilities.

 

• Balance - Nope. Human controlled teams have the highest budget by far. Not even close.
• Transfer budget - Ditto.
• Wage budget - Ditto.
• Sugar Daddy - As far as I'm aware, none of the AI controlled clubs have/had one, so it's irrelevant.
• Stadium rental per year - Nope.
• Average match ticket price/Average season ticket price - I'm pretty sure the other teams in San Marino were still charging a fiver for admission.
• Number of Season Ticket Holders - I'm almost certain that the human controlled clubs had the highest... but maybe?
• Other Income - Pretty sure all the clubs will be getting the same government grant. Could the AI possibly be getting more sponsorship money than the human player and this is triggering it? Is there a way to check that?
• Debts - Well, most of the other teams in San Marino had them, San Giovanni didn't. No dice.

 

• Competitions - Nope. Same for all the teams in the country.
• Euro Coefficients - Can't be. Human controlled teams have by far the best.

 

• Tactical attributes - Nope (these are all set to default for teams in San Marino, anyway).
• Supporter profile - Also all set to default. I'm not sure if these change dynamically. They also probably won't have any affect.
• Kits and Colours - I don't think so.

 

• Staff and Players - See, the Chairman could have something to do with it, although that wasn't the case when I tested it quickly earlier. I also doubt that the local businessmen taking over other teams in San Marino will have any special attributes.
• Coaching Staff/Players/Other Staff - Nope.
• Responsibilities - I doubt having a coach run a U23 squad matters, to be honest.
• Relationships - Maybe having a rivalry with a team known for fierce ultras scares off players from joining your Youth Academy in case their homes get torched?
• Records - Nope.

 

So...

I see just two options - Season Ticket Holders or Sponsorship money. Problem is, I'm almost certain that the human controlled teams have by far the most season ticket holders, and the only way the other teams would be getting more sponsorship money is a bug, which would surely have been noticed by now. It also can't realistically happen, considering how often the other teams in San Marino are in debt.

 

I'm pretty much out of ideas. Unless it's linked to the transfers your club makes, there's just no reason for AI clubs to be doing better in Youth Recruitment than a far superior human controlled one.

[Keano16]

@Jupjamie Now here's something I can help with, a limited liability company is a private company with shareholders and the like. A public owned company is owned by the public so probably fan owned. Perhaps that has an impact?

[Bedese]

3 hours ago, Keano16 said:

@Jupjamie Now here's something I can help with, a limited liability company is a private company with shareholders and the like. A public owned company is owned by the public so probably fan owned. Perhaps that has an impact?

Cheers mate. I don't see why that'd have an impact, though  

[Rynny]

I always thought it was a combination of finances available, club reputation, and your current dependence on playing youth players or buying in talent.

[Ceching You Out]

4 hours ago, Rynny said:

I always thought it was a combination of finances available, club reputation, and your current dependence on playing youth players or buying in talent.

That's the first time I've heard the last part mentioned as a factor -- do you mean  buying more means less ability to upgrade? Or vice versa?

 

 

4 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

Cheers mate. I don't see why that'd have an impact, though  

I can't imagine how it would have an impact either.

Interesting findings so far! Although they paint a bleak picture. Have you thought about testing the "purchasing" theory? If your side is dominant enough, may be able to get away with holidaying between transfer periods, buy the highest caliber player available, rinse and repeat.

[BoxToBox]

6 hours ago, Rynny said:

I always thought it was a combination of finances available, club reputation, and your current dependence on playing youth players or buying in talent.

Surely this would make the player run teams in these challenges more likely to gain youth recruitment upgrades, as the saves being tested are all youth saves extremely reliant on players from intakes.

[Touristas3]

What about club philosophies,

Maybe if you agree to change the club philosophy towards youth development

[Jellico73]

How fast did LPQR's facilities improve in his Sparta Bucharesti youth save?

Its also been awhile since I listened to it all, but Work the space Gibraltar Apex save may have some useful data points as well.

[Bedese]

11 hours ago, Rynny said:

I always thought it was a combination of finances available, club reputation, and your current dependence on playing youth players or buying in talent.

 

7 hours ago, Ceching You Out said:

That's the first time I've heard the last part mentioned as a factor -- do you mean  buying more means less ability to upgrade? Or vice versa?

 

 

I can't imagine how it would have an impact either.

Interesting findings so far! Although they paint a bleak picture. Have you thought about testing the "purchasing" theory? If your side is dominant enough, may be able to get away with holidaying between transfer periods, buy the highest caliber player available, rinse and repeat.

Like @Ceching You Out says, I've never heard that as a factor before, but it's plausible.

I think I'm going to have to test the transfer theory. Looks like the San Giovanni thread is going to come back very briefly for scientific purposes.

5 hours ago, BoxToBox said:

Surely this would make the player run teams in these challenges more likely to gain youth recruitment upgrades, as the saves being tested are all youth saves extremely reliant on players from intakes.

Unless spending money on players from other clubs made your club seem bigger and more alluring to prospects? It's tenuous, but I can't think of anything else.

5 hours ago, Touristas3 said:

What about club philosophies,

Maybe if you agree to change the club philosophy towards youth development

Good idea. @BoxToBox and @Ceching You Out, do you have that as a philosophy? (I'm not actually sure if philosophies were on FM 15, so apologies if they aren't).

4 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

How fast did LPQR's facilities improve in his Sparta Bucharesti youth save?

Its also been awhile since I listened to it all, but Work the space Gibraltar Apex save may have some useful data points as well.

The problem with the Work the Space save is that it was very, very buggy IIRC. I doubt it'd be much help considering I think he was getting 100m per year in TV money at some point?

@LPQR increased his facilities very quickly, although that's probably due to the outrageous amount of success he had. I'm wondering if a bigger country like Romania doesn't suffer from the same problems as smaller ones like the Faroe Islands.

[BoxToBox]

No philosophies here.

[Bedese]

Just now, BoxToBox said:

No philosophies here.

It might be worth asking the board about it? I'm not sure it would change anything, but it can't hurt, right?

[BoxToBox]

At worst it's going to be another way to keep the board happy, I guess.

[Ceching You Out]

I've got "Give Youth A Chance" as a philospohy; the board have actually cited it as a reason to agree to youth/training facilities upgrades.

I think Romania is close enough to a "big country" that there wasn't the same struggle for the Spartans youth recruitment upgrades. Maybe he can weigh in on any thresholds he may have found, otherwise it'd be a separate test to discover differences between countries rather than within.

[LPQR]

11 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

I've got "Give Youth A Chance" as a philospohy; the board have actually cited it as a reason to agree to youth/training facilities upgrades.

I think Romania is close enough to a "big country" that there wasn't the same struggle for the Spartans youth recruitment upgrades. Maybe he can weigh in on any thresholds he may have found, otherwise it'd be a separate test to discover differences between countries rather than within.

I don't quite get what the question is

[beardymouse]

Is it not that the human-controlled teams are so successful that their boards don't feel like they need to spend money on it? If their ambitions only stretch to being the best team in the country, why would they improve on something that's got them to their goal?

[LPQR]

ah, ok, I've just read the entire thread  

guys, as wonderful this effort is, I think there's hundreds of possible combinations of in-game factors that could result in the board allowing youth recruitment improvement or not (that's the big dilemma, right?)

 - different board members/owners react differently to the same demands in the same circumstances. different board members have different hidden attributes for ambition, loyalty, and so on

- your hidden manager attributes (ambition, loyalty, etc.) most likely play a role there as well as determination - board negotiations that is

- you'll often get the 'good for the club of our stature' tagline when improving youth recruitment in the initial stages, which shows that it's very much related to the club's reputation

- finances play a role but not the determining one

- the country's 'talent proficiency' is set-out from the start by SI as far as I remember, I've seen an article about the numbers somewhere but can't find it. That means that the likelihood of producing high PA players is non-variable, no matter of the nation's achievements in-game. A club's maxed out facilities would only recruit the best available, as previously mentioned.

 

For example, with Sparta Bucharest I've managed to improve youth recruitment twice whilst being in the Romanian second division (rated around the same reputation as Serie C at the time). With Artium Firenze I have better finances, in a better league, the same club reputation and I haven't been able to get ANY facilities improved in 3 years time (Division 6 to serie C). Actually, in the Sparta save I've had ALL my requests approved whenever I asked for something ridiculous like 2 years. And that was the 'reign' of one owner, after he'd been replaced, things got complicated - we had many requests refused simply because... well, nothing!  Often you will get different replies from the board, something like 'we want yo see you achieve something' or 'the club's youth recruitment is decent for our stature' which brings me to the above mentioned conclusion... The two key factors that will influence the probability of getting a request for the YR upgrade will be determined by two things more than all the others:

- Personal relationship with the board and board/owner personality as well as managed traits (determination, ambition...)

- Club stature (star reputation + reputation of competition involved)

Then you have this to further prove my first argument: for example, 15 years in my career with Sparta I am able to make board requests solely on my 'club legend' status and always have the 'fans behind my back' alibi, and thus I most probably wouldn't have got the requests approved if I didn't have that luxury status.

The above two are the key ones, as per my understanding. Furthermore you have things like:

- club philosophies

- finances

The key thing here, is that the game will produce incredibly random results for each save not because of each of these factors separately but because of the hundreds of possible scenarios that their interaction brings. 

 

 

 

[Ceching You Out]

You're right that there are a myriad of factors, but we're seeing the same peculiar events in each of our respective saves -- other domestic sides are able to upgrade their recruitment despite being inferior reputationally and financially. Bizarre, no? Not only are we seeing competitors upgrades, the option isn't even available under Board Requests. Typically that means some underlying condition isn't being met.

For example, in Luxembourg we're still stuck at Limited without the option to upgrade for 35+ years. Yet our biggest competitor is now Above Average, implying at least three upgrades there; all but one other club in the league has at least made it to Basic. We're (or mostly @Jupjamie ) trying to identify what it is the missing factor since it's clearly not reputation or finances.

Something caught my eye in your comments -- are you, the manager, assigned hidden attributes for Ambition, Loyalty, etc.? I'm not sure that's the cause we're looking for but it's an area I'm unfamiliar with.

While i's not causing the disparities within a league, each country gets a Youth Rating that impacts the probability of youth PA. Those vary pretty substantially between even the developed countries and may impose some limit, although I'm a little skeptical it has a massive impact. Otherwise Brazil at 163 or Egypt at 138 would have a substantially different max youth recruitment levels than England at 120 (FM15 numbers).

Each nation also gets a Game Importance rating which, I believe, impacts the volume of youth generated by each club.

[LPQR]

hm, I haven't had this issue but I'll be following the thread with great interest

as for the manager's hidden atts, I'm not sure if you're assigned certain attributes from the start and if qualifications play a part there, but they certainly develop over time according to your management style. 

49 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

While i's not causing the disparities within a league, each country gets a Youth Rating that impacts the probability of youth PA. Those vary pretty substantially between even the developed countries and may impose some limit, although I'm a little skeptical it has a massive impact. Otherwise Brazil at 163 or Egypt at 138 would have a substantially different max youth recruitment levels than England at 120 (FM15 numbers).

Each nation also gets a Game Importance rating which, I believe, impacts the volume of youth generated by each club.

yes, exactly what I was referring to  thanks for the detail!

[Bedese]

15 hours ago, beardymouse said:

Is it not that the human-controlled teams are so successful that their boards don't feel like they need to spend money on it? If their ambitions only stretch to being the best team in the country, why would they improve on something that's got them to their goal?

Interesting idea. I'm sceptical, though, because it took a long time for @Ceching You Out to become dominant domestically, and I think @BoxToBox's board would have higher ambitions after his progress in Europe.

14 hours ago, Ceching You Out said:

You're right that there are a myriad of factors, but we're seeing the same peculiar events in each of our respective saves -- other domestic sides are able to upgrade their recruitment despite being inferior reputationally and financially. Bizarre, no? Not only are we seeing competitors upgrades, the option isn't even available under Board Requests. Typically that means some underlying condition isn't being met.

For example, in Luxembourg we're still stuck at Limited without the option to upgrade for 35+ years. Yet our biggest competitor is now Above Average, implying at least three upgrades there; all but one other club in the league has at least made it to Basic. We're (or mostly @Jupjamie ) trying to identify what it is the missing factor since it's clearly not reputation or finances.

Something caught my eye in your comments -- are you, the manager, assigned hidden attributes for Ambition, Loyalty, etc.? I'm not sure that's the cause we're looking for but it's an area I'm unfamiliar with.

While i's not causing the disparities within a league, each country gets a Youth Rating that impacts the probability of youth PA. Those vary pretty substantially between even the developed countries and may impose some limit, although I'm a little skeptical it has a massive impact. Otherwise Brazil at 163 or Egypt at 138 would have a substantially different max youth recruitment levels than England at 120 (FM15 numbers).

Each nation also gets a Game Importance rating which, I believe, impacts the volume of youth generated by each club.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Interesting that you talk about Youth Rating, though, because I decided to buy the In Game Editor and run some tests last night while I was on holiday on my FM 16 save. It definitely makes a difference to the quality of youth players that you get in. As for whether it determines how high your youth recruitment level can go? I'd wager that it does, alongside a whole host of other factors, but I can't say anything definitively on it.

[Bedese]

So, I decided to check out the impact of transfers by simming 5 years with San Giovanni having an AI manager, and then manage them myself for those five years and compare the differences.

 

Human Controlled San Giovanni:

In Europe: Lost in the Europa League 3rd round once, lost in the Europa League playoff once, made the Europa League groups three times (3 points, 1 point, 1 point).

We also signed a lot of players, all foreign, most of whom became some of the best players at the club.

Finances by 2105: 4.5m

Youth Recruitment: No option to upgrade.

 

AI Controlled San Giovanni:

In Europe: Lost in the CL Second Qualifying Round twice, lost in the Europa League Playoff three times - never made the groups.

Signed less players than we did, and not quite as good as our ones, either.

Finances by 2105: -269k.

Youth Recruitment: Upgraded from Limited to Basic.

 

So: When I was managing San Giovanni from 2100-2105, they did unquestionably far better in Europe, had far better finances and made more - and better - signings than the AI. Despite performing far worse on every level, the AI San Giovanni were ones who were able to upgrade Youth Recruitment.

 

That's pretty damning evidence that the AI have a hardcoded advantage in terms of Youth Recruitment.

 

 

[Bedese]

@Ceching You Out @Jimbokav1971 @BoxToBox @Keano16 @Chantu9Y @Warg92 @Notorious SPC @Cardiovascular @Shevchenko @ManUtd1 - apologies for tagging you again if you're not interested, but I figured some of you may want to see what we've found out so far.

[ManUtd1]

I've been reading, if not commenting...focused on my save right now as we're taking the late stages of the CL 

Off for a bit now 

[BoxToBox]

Good time for the tag, I'm between one to one and a half years after the "develop players using club youth system" philosophy, and nothing has changed.

[Bedese]

3 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

Good time for the tag, I'm between one to one and a half years after the "develop players using club youth system" philosophy, and nothing has changed.

I suspected as much  I'm really out of ideas to explain it.

[Spurs08]

Would it be possible to deliberately manage the club badly as a human, just to see if it's the case that the board won't upgrade if you're doing very well anyway?

[Bedese]

29 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

Would it be possible to deliberately manage the club badly as a human, just to see if it's the case that the board won't upgrade if you're doing very well anyway?

How badly? The problem with that is trying to find the balance between doing badly enough to annoy the board, but not so badly that they don't fire you. I can't see a way to do that, to be honest. It would take multiple seasons for the board to worry about losing dominance, by which point you've been fired for losing dominance.

[BoxToBox]

Well, just to throw a spanner in the works, I'm after getting the upgrade to Fairly Basic since(and maxed Junior Coaching).

[Jimbokav1971]

8 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

That's pretty damning evidence that the AI have a hardcoded advantage in terms of Youth Recruitment.

With respect, I don't think that's what it is at all. I think it's more likely that we/you just can't work out what it is that has changed. Just because we can't find the answers we are looking for, does not automatically mean that we can assume other conclusions. That's not the way my mind works at least. 

It could be...

a change at board level.
the culmination of all your hard work put in before you left.
a tipping point being reached, (which you were right on the cusp of).
a more gradual progression in a similar way to the way in which coefficients work in that the average over a period is taken rather than a snapshot of the immediate situation. 
at the interview stage it could have been something that the new manager insisted on, (and while you might argue that the option shouldn't be available because it wasn't to you), then you have to factor in the desire for the board to fill the void left by your leaving and the fact that any subsequent manager might be seen to require additional support that you weren't deemed to need. 

I also think that depending on board personality, (personality is the wrong word so apologies but I can't think of the correct word), I think that @BoxToBoxraises a hugely valid point. If you are over-achieving enormously within the current financial model, then where is the demand for additional cash injection under your tenure? You are already giving them more than they could ever dream of. Why would that require additional cash injection for the same return? 

You have to remember though that I have never managed i this structure so it could be that my opinion is not as valid as others, and the only similar structure I have managed in was Gibraltar which was an official save rather than one created by the community, (and please remember that I have absolutely not a cue at all about the editor), and it could be that the way the structure has been created has an impact on what we are seeing, (but I can't offer any suggestions linked to that).

I'm not defending SI blindly and saying there is no way that bla bla bla can happen because that's just wrong. I just don't think that your jump to end conclusions is a reasonable one. 

In any case, like much of the game, I don't think that the answer will be 1 single action or event or solution that is often easier to spot. More likely it is the cumulative impact of a number of different things that add together to create the triggers. 

[Jimbokav1971]

8 hours ago, BoxToBox said:

Good time for the tag, I'm between one to one and a half years after the "develop players using club youth system" philosophy, and nothing has changed.

We are talking about youth development here. Just think about the real-life connotations of that for a minute. 

Now ask yourself within what sort of time-scale you should be judged over this sort of thing. 

A month? Don't be ridiculous.
A season? No way.
2 seasons? No way.
5 seasons? Well you might just start to get the 1st shoots of productivity from the investment.
10 years? Yes. You should start to see a return on investment now.
20 years. Absolutely. 

If I am honest, I like to judge things on a far more long-term basis than months or even seasons. 

[BoxToBox]

10 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

We are talking about youth development here. Just think about the real-life connotations of that for a minute. 

Now ask yourself within what sort of time-scale you should be judged over this sort of thing. 

A month? Don't be ridiculous.
A season? No way.
2 seasons? No way.
5 seasons? Well you might just start to get the 1st shoots of productivity from the investment.
10 years? Yes. You should start to see a return on investment now.
20 years. Absolutely. 

If I am honest, I like to judge things on a far more long-term basis than months or even seasons. 

I meant that noting had changed in unlocking the option to ask for a youth recruitment upgrade, not in how I was being judged for my development of youth, of course I wasn't expecting favourable results in that so quickly.

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

So, I decided to check out the impact of transfers by simming 5 years with San Giovanni having an AI manager, and then manage them myself for those five years and compare the differences.

 

Human Controlled San Giovanni:

In Europe: Lost in the Europa League 3rd round once, lost in the Europa League playoff once, made the Europa League groups three times (3 points, 1 point, 1 point).

We also signed a lot of players, all foreign, most of whom became some of the best players at the club.

Finances by 2105: 4.5m

Youth Recruitment: No option to upgrade.

 

AI Controlled San Giovanni:

In Europe: Lost in the CL Second Qualifying Round twice, lost in the Europa League Playoff three times - never made the groups.

Signed less players than we did, and not quite as good as our ones, either.

Finances by 2105: -269k.

Youth Recruitment: Upgraded from Limited to Basic.

 

So: When I was managing San Giovanni from 2100-2105, they did unquestionably far better in Europe, had far better finances and made more - and better - signings than the AI. Despite performing far worse on every level, the AI San Giovanni were ones who were able to upgrade Youth Recruitment.

 

That's pretty damning evidence that the AI have a hardcoded advantage in terms of Youth Recruitment.

 

 

It's not damning evidence at all, what you should have done was run the AI manager save first & then looked to replicate their transfer & selection behaviour to remove as many variables as possible, tbh why should the board increase youth recruitment for your manager when it appears you have no interest in promoting youth due to your transfer policy of bringing in foreign players?

Another factor will be philosophies, the AI manager may have agreed to a policy of producing from within with the board, did you?

[BoxToBox]

5 hours ago, BoxToBox said:

Well, just to throw a spanner in the works, I'm after getting the upgrade to Fairly Basic since(and maxed Junior Coaching).

I'm massively confused now though. Since I was playing along and the options were available in late July, I only noticed(since I had given up on them) as I went to check to see if I could get a new stadium as we're close to filling it out, and can hit over our limit in the CL(where we use the NT's pitch, which holds 1k more).

So I checked my back catalogue of saves, and found the earliest one where it was available, and I had a save one week before, where it's not available. Sense would dictate that if I loaded that save done everything the same(as close as possible, of course), and moved forward the week, it would become available. It doesn't though!

[Pompeyboyz]

15 minutes ago, Barside said:

why should rge board increase youth recruitment for your manager when it appears you have no interest in promoting youth due to your transfer policy of bringing in foreign players?

Another factor will be philosophies, the AI manager may have agreed to a policy of producing from within with the board, did you?

you have to remember that the tests are being done on a save where @Jupjamie had done nothing but promote youth and he is now changing his actions with the save by buying players.

[Bedese]

@Jimbokav1971 and @Barside: Agreed, it's not damning evidence. I was tired and a little annoyed that this didn't seem to be going anywhere  Apologies.

 

4 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

With respect, I don't think that's what it is at all. I think it's more likely that we/you just can't work out what it is that has changed. Just because we can't find the answers we are looking for, does not automatically mean that we can assume other conclusions. That's not the way my mind works at least. 

It could be...

a change at board level.

What kind of change? The only change that happened to the personnel on the board was the same on both versions of the save, with the chairman leaving in 2102 and being replaced by a local businessman.

the culmination of all your hard work put in before you left.

But why would this then not carry over with five more years, when it did for the AI after five worse years?

a tipping point being reached, (which you were right on the cusp of).

I agree that it's definitely a tipping point being reached by the AI that wasn't as a human, but I disagree that I was right on the cusp of it. This save is now 90 years down the line with no Youth Recruitment upgrade, despite being successful in Europe (raising reputation and finances). The AI lowered their reputation and finances, but still got the upgrade. Now, a tipping point has definitely been reached, but in what? What have they done, despite lower reputation and finances, that's pushed them over the edge?

a more gradual progression in a similar way to the way in which coefficients work in that the average over a period is taken rather than a snapshot of the immediate situation. 

Again, plausible, but this save has been going for 90 years. 

at the interview stage it could have been something that the new manager insisted on, (and while you might argue that the option shouldn't be available because it wasn't to you), then you have to factor in the desire for the board to fill the void left by your leaving and the fact that any subsequent manager might be seen to require additional support that you weren't deemed to need. 

I do like this idea, but while I don't know exactly when the Youth Recruitment was upgraded, I do know that it wasn't in the first two years, which should negate the idea that it was given as part of the interview process. The board may have decided that it was needed for the new manager, but they were still dominant domestically (actually, they were even more so - they won 5/5 league titles, while we only won 4), and their finances were in the red, so I can't imagine that spending more money would be the AI board's way of getting out of the 'problem' - and, in fact, it wasn't a problem. The AI were still overachieving. They were dominant domestically and made it to the Europa Playoff 3 times in 5 years too. That's more than the board expect.

I also think that depending on board personality, (personality is the wrong word so apologies but I can't think of the correct word), I think that @BoxToBoxraises a hugely valid point. If you are over-achieving enormously within the current financial model, then where is the demand for additional cash injection under your tenure? You are already giving them more than they could ever dream of. Why would that require additional cash injection for the same return? 

Good point, but as said above, the AI were also overachieving, and had no money to spend, so I can't imagine that they'd be happy to spend even more.

4 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

You have to remember though that I have never managed i this structure so it could be that my opinion is not as valid as others, and the only similar structure I have managed in was Gibraltar which was an official save rather than one created by the community, (and please remember that I have absolutely not a cue at all about the editor), and it could be that the way the structure has been created has an impact on what we are seeing, (but I can't offer any suggestions linked to that).

I'm not defending SI blindly and saying there is no way that bla bla bla can happen because that's just wrong. I just don't think that your jump to end conclusions is a reasonable one. 

Agreed. It was definitely a jump too far.

In any case, like much of the game, I don't think that the answer will be 1 single action or event or solution that is often easier to spot. More likely it is the cumulative impact of a number of different things that add together to create the triggers. 

Problem is, we've been searching through all the likely triggers. I'm really out of ideas to explain why the most successful team in the country can't upgrade, but weaker teams - even teams who don't yet have the money to go professional - can.

 

3 hours ago, Barside said:

It's not damning evidence at all, what you should have done was run the AI manager save first & then looked to replicate their transfer & selection behaviour to remove as many variables as possible, tbh why should the board increase youth recruitment for your manager when it appears you have no interest in promoting youth due to your transfer policy of bringing in foreign players?

Another factor will be philosophies, the AI manager may have agreed to a policy of producing from within with the board, did you?

As @Pompeyboyz said, this save had run for the last 85 years purely on using youth players and promoting them, without a single transfer being made. That philosophy was there throughout the 85 years. In 85 years without buying players, the board didn't see the need to increase youth recruitment, but in 5 years of the AI managing and buying players, they did. Baffling. 

[Bedese]

3 hours ago, BoxToBox said:

I'm massively confused now though. Since I was playing along and the options were available in late July, I only noticed(since I had given up on them) as I went to check to see if I could get a new stadium as we're close to filling it out, and can hit over our limit in the CL(where we use the NT's pitch, which holds 1k more).

So I checked my back catalogue of saves, and found the earliest one where it was available, and I had a save one week before, where it's not available. Sense would dictate that if I loaded that save done everything the same(as close as possible, of course), and moved forward the week, it would become available. It doesn't though!

So... you had the option to upgrade youth recruitment, went back in time a week, carried on in the same way and then the option wasn't there?

[BoxToBox]

9 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

So... you had the option to upgrade youth recruitment, went back in time a week, carried on in the same way and then the option wasn't there?

Bingo!

I went through that week five or six times too, and not once did the option reappear.

[Bedese]

Just now, BoxToBox said:

Bingo!

I went through that week five or six times too, and not once did the option reappear.

I'm really, really confused now. How far do you need to go past that week until the option appears? 

[BoxToBox]

1 minute ago, Jupjamie said:

I'm really, really confused now. How far do you need to go past that week until the option appears? 

I don't know, I didn't really mess around past that, I'll give it a crack and see.

[Ceching You Out]

Fair points @Jimbokav1971 and @Jupjamie. I'm not ready to concede that the AI has an unfair advantage either; that would be inimical to FM's ethos in just about every other area. Seems there must be something the AI manager does, however unexpected, that makes the difference. I'd love to hear an official response from SI given that their previous explanation (basically population, finances, and reputation) is clearly missing something.

Definitely keep that save @BoxToBox! It gives a chance for a bit of testing. Is there anything you did that week, however mundane, that may have set the dice rolling? Interesting to see if it's something as simple as being on the verge of a threshold that you tick over next week instead.

Just a reminder since a fair number of people seem to be missing it -- this thread came about because at least three of us have long-ish running youth only saves where, despite being the dominant side domestically with the best reputation, finances, and results in the country, we were unable to upgrade our youth recruitment while other clubs were upgrading their youth recruitment. It appears there is something the AI manager does or doesn't do that is at least as significant a factor as reputation, finances, and results.

[BoxToBox]

1 hour ago, Ceching You Out said:

Definitely keep that save @BoxToBox! It gives a chance for a bit of testing. Is there anything you did that week, however mundane, that may have set the dice rolling? Interesting to see if it's something as simple as being on the verge of a threshold that you tick over next week instead.

Played two games, rejected a loan from Ajax for my star player, that's about it. Played on for a month and no sign of the upgrade option, I'll grind through some more months tomorrow.

[Ceching You Out]

36 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

Played two games, rejected a loan from Ajax for my star player, that's about it. Played on for a month and no sign of the upgrade option, I'll grind through some more months tomorrow.

Were the results significantly different, either scoreline or outcome? Seems the only way for it to be reputation based changed. Although unlikely if winning out the rest of the month doesn't make the option available.

[BoxToBox]

1 hour ago, Ceching You Out said:

Were the results significantly different, either scoreline or outcome? Seems the only way for it to be reputation based changed. Although unlikely if winning out the rest of the month doesn't make the option available.

The original results were an 8-0 win and a 2-3 win, the redo a 6-0 win and if I remember correctly a 0-2 win.

The only difference is that in the original, one of my star players broke the teams overall goals record, in the redo he didn't.

[BoxToBox]

@Jupjamie I continued on the save where I hit Fairly Basic(which was my save proper) and by end of season IF had reached Average.

[Bedese]

7 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

@Jupjamie I continued on the save where I hit Fairly Basic(which was my save proper) and by end of season IF had reached Average.

How did they do this season?

[BoxToBox]

2 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

How did they do this season?

They finished 4th, scraping the final Europa spot, lost the Super Cup got knocked out in the Cup semi finals by us, and got knocked out of the 3rd qf of the Europa which was the first round they played in, but drew Dortmund. Spent 155k on one player from us, brought in three freebies, and released a bunch, selling one for 19.5k. Still the same manager they've had since 2019(it's Jan 2032 now).

They have 7 Faroe players, only one of which has come through their academy, a backup keeper. Funnily enough, two of them came through mine!

[Bedese]

17 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

They finished 4th, scraping the final Europa spot, lost the Super Cup got knocked out in the Cup semi finals by us, and got knocked out of the 3rd qf of the Europa which was the first round they played in, but drew Dortmund. Spent 155k on one player from us, brought in three freebies, and released a bunch, selling one for 19.5k. Still the same manager they've had since 2019(it's Jan 2032 now).

They have 7 Faroe players, only one of which has come through their academy, a backup keeper. Funnily enough, two of them came through mine!

I don't see anything there that would mean better Youth Recruitment. Gah.

[champmanlegend]

How often do you check whether the option to upgrade the youth recruitment level is present?

Where the AI may have an advantage is that as soon as the option is made available by the board, the AI manager may invoke the upgrade. You as a human manager may only check once a month or so and there may be times where the upgrade is available for a short period of time but not invoked. There could be specific conditions that cause it to appear and then disappear.

Of course, this theory does also imply that the AI manager has a distinct advantage in that they can request upgrades as soon as they are available whereas a human manager would have to be very thorough to identify the upgrade time.

[Torminator]

I always thought (but have no proof or whatevery) that club reputation is based on two reputations, the club as a whole (based on performance) and the players reputation. Re-gens and youth products have less player reputation. Maybe signing 'big money transfers' has a impact on youth recruitment levels. 

In real life i can imagine  youth players signing for a youth setup because of the players in the senior team.