Sheffield FC - The Chronicles of the 3-5-2

[Cleon]

It’s been a **** few weeks in terms of Football Manager saves for me, first I lost my Santos save due to hardware failure and me not having any back ups elsewhere. Secondly I started a new game with Sheffield F.C and got about twelve games into it then realised the game had reset my database size and changes it to small when creating the game, something I didn’t realise at the time. So I’ve had to start it yet again! I’ve kind of lost all interest again with the game but I’m hoping this save with the World’s Oldest football club will get me back into it.

So why Sheffield F.C?

This side has always been my local non league club to follow ever since I was a little whippersnapper. Before moving up to the cold, wet and horrible North East I used to hold a season ticket for Sheffield F.C and used to go to all the games that didn’t clash with Sheffield United. On top of this I’ve also done some media/press work at the club and some of you might remember the stuff I did for Clear Cut Chance. Sheffield F.C are also recognised by FIFA as the world’s oldest football club, which is pretty cool. They’ve never really had much real life success with their best achievement coming in 1904 when they won the FA Amateur Cup and then in 1977 they finished runner-up in the FA Vase.

Those of you who have followed my stuff for a number of years will know that I often play as Sheffield F.C and have seen the odd FM related post about them from me but nothing for a while. This is due to me always playing them as a quick save where I don’t document stuff or write about the game. It became my little private get away over the years and something I could just relax and play. However this year this is likely to be the only save I play now, I did plan on doing this with Santos but can’t be bothered now I lost the save so thought I’d go pastures new and hopefully kick-start my interest in Football Manager again

The Plan

Long-term the goal is to be a successful club operating in the Premier League. This is quite some time away though and many promotions are needed in order to be able to do that. But I can start laying foundations towards that goal now and start building a club DNA from the day I take over. Just because you are a lower league side doesn’t mean you can’t start trying to play the way you want, you might have to adapt along the way ever so slightly but that’s expected. Remember that the idea you have in your head is the end goal and is what you work towards, I think this gets lost in the Football Manager community at times and people expect to instantly start playing with the end product, which very rarely happens.

Part of the club philosophy and DNA i’ll be creating is the use of a 3-5-2 formation or should I say 5-3-2 wingbacks in Football Manager terms. I did plan on using the 3-4-3 I wrote about last year in the ‘Art of Attacking Football’ series I wrote but then I felt like I’d just be covering old ground again and I like to keep things fresh tactically. That’s why I’ll be writing about the 3-5-2 in great detail, I’ve wrote a giant article about this already for this new series that I started yesterday so hopefully I’ll post that up in the next few days.

This will include how I adapt it as we hopefully progress through the leagues and bring better players into the squad. It will also go into great detail with the analysis I’ll be doing and this will likely be a very complete guide to everything 3-5-2 related. I’ll be focusing on the strengths and weakness of the system and showing examples as to why it happen. The plan is also to show how it plays against each different formation I play against during the many seasons.

On top of all this the series will also be a youth development one and show how I deal with training and player development when I’m a small part-time club compared to a giant powerhouse. The changes aren’t actually that drastic just more subtle I’d say but hopefully this will come across in the articles.

Hopefully you’ll enjoy what’s to come.

[Cleon]

Due to this being a very lengthy series that I’m writing, there will be quite a mix of articles about the 3-5-2 and some will be long and others more short, almost like little snapshots. This is the first article in this series and is more of an introduction to warm you up for the more detailed analysis.

Background: By Human Afazeli

Already, as early as 1982, it was apparent that the existing formations in football needed to undergo changes. Therefore, following the 1982 World Cup in Spain, FIFA conducted a multipurpose study to establish the necessary background for statistical analysis of this issue. That study concluded that teams with more physical fighting ability in midfield often enjoy an advantage over their opponents. The West Germany v. France match in the semi-final of WC 82 was taken as a classic example in this regard. Further research, including during Euro 84, proved the accuracy of this assumption, and later on emphasis on physical prowess and fighting ability in midfield turned to be one of the theorems in contemporary football.

The FIFA studies signaled the beginning of change. Coaches formed training systems on more physical power, stamina and fitness. Some coaches pioneered theoretical aspects of defense and offense on the basis of heavy fighting in midfield.

In 1986, Carlos Billardo of Argentina and Franz Beckenbauer of West Germany came up with a new formation, namely 3-5-2, which was quickly accepted by most experts all around the world. Using the advantages of the system, they led their teams to the final matches of WIC 86 and WIC 90 respectively.

The idea of fighting in the midfield made football what it is now. It made football a more physical game than an artistic one compared to before. The fitness revolution in the 1990s was directly due to these changes. Many laboratories, especially in Germany, worked on developing new training systems. The mutation of fitness was explicitly noticeable during WIC 90.

As mentioned above, the 3-5-2 formation was established after Euro 84. The motivation was to add fighting forces in midfield. Before discussing the steps that led to the adoption of the 3-5-2 formation, it would be useful to review the formations used at the time. After WC 74, the 4-3-3 formation gradually transformed into 4-4-2. One of the reasons for this transformation was to allow for the use of 2 players as central strikers. Another reason was to create an easier situation for the leading players on a team, players like Platini or Maradona, who had a high command of passing.

They could now save their energy for attacking purposes, since one of the central midfielders in a 4-4-2 formation would be acting mostly in a defensive capacity. It was during the dominance of the 4-4-2 formation that the studies we noted earlier were conducted and the midfield-fighting rule was adopted. Accepting the rule, football theorists studied the dominant formation (i.e. 4-4-2) to modify it in a way that would take advantage of the lessons taught by it. What these theorists and coaches did was to change the defending system by moving one of the defenders to midfield. The change to 3-5-2 took into consideration the “balance principal” in football, which states: “the number of defenders must be the same as attackers plus one”.

This principle means that defenders should always have the dominance as far as number of players is concerned. With the 4-4-2 formation adopted by most teams, these theorists concluded that with only 2 strikers to guard, it was possible to decrease the number of defenders. This change brought the new formation in football that was 3-5-2.

3-5-2 And The Variations

There are many variations of this formation that you can use, here are the popular choices;

Ignore the roles as they don’t mean anything but those are the general 3-5-2 shape’s we’ll see used in football.

Advantages

• One of the main selling points of the 3-5-2 is the use of two strikers.
• Wingbacks provide width.
• Three central midfielders allows you to match most opponents in the centre of midfield.

Disadvantages

• The centrebacks can get dragged wide if the wingbacks are out of position or don’t deal with danger.
• Wingbacks can be exposed and doubled up on at times.
• Centrebacks can be wasted against one man striker formations.

There is obviously a lot more to it than just the above but I’ll be talking about the advantages and disadvantages in a lot more detail once the match analysis starts. I just wanted to use this as a quick brief overview.

Football Manager and Sheffield FC’s 3-5-2

The first image you saw above is actually the 3-5-2 I’ll be using and those are the roles I’ll be starting with. It’s not a flat 3-5-2 because you need to remember than on Football Manager the shape you see on the overview is your defensive shape. So when we are out of possession I wanted the shape to mould into a 5-3-2 to offer extra protection to the three central defenders and be harder to break down.

I’m still unsure if these roles will stay the same because I’ve not seen it in action yet with Sheffield FC so any changes will be made based on what I see happening in the game. But the midfield is very flexible and it’s highly possible that I’ll change it quite a lot during the season to offer me different things.

If you look at my central three midfielders you’ll notice that the central player is a deep-lying playmaker currently on defensive duty. The defensive duty is actually an oversight when whipping up tactic to highlight it to you guys. It should be a support role. The reason for this is I want him to be an attacking pivot for the side rather than a defensive screen for the back three.

This gives me an attacking triangle in midfield when attacking and allows me to attempt to dominate the midfield area in advanced positions and hopefully creating extra supply for the strikers. It also allows the deep-lying playmaker to attempt to pick up any loose balls or balls that the opposition might try to clear if they win possession back. But from a purely attacking perspective this midfield set up allows me to try to overload the central areas while the wingbacks should be providing the width on the outside. This will make it extremely difficult for the opposition to defend again because if they focus on the central players then this leaves the wingbacks free and vice versa. It’s all about creating many options and not attacking in the same way.

It can be a risky play style at times though and it might allow the opposition to counter me, so it comes down to risk vs reward and I like taking risks. If I do find I get countered and that the deep-lying playmaker has far too much work to do, I can switch the roles around and make the midfield more defensive minded by doing this;

Two simple role changes and then the midfield would look like this, giving extra defensive cover to the midfield if I found I was being overwhelmed in the central areas. It’s a more defensive minded system but that’s the beauty of the three central players, you can constantly mix it up to offer you different things. You can easily go more attacking or more defensive just by a simple role change. It’s all about controlling the midfield and adapting to what is needed at that particular time.

I’m the type of manager who adapt to what is going on in the game based on what I see happening. By doing this I give myself every opportunity to get a result every time. I don’t over adapt though and it’s okay for the opposition to have more possession, more shots or even control certain areas of the pitch as long as I don’t deem it dangerous and it takes nothing away from what I want my team to do. Sometimes allowing the opposition to control certain aspects of the game means my team can stick to its plan. You’ll see more about what I’m talking about as the season goes on and we get stuck into the match analysis.

In the next article we’ll take a look at the opening six or seven games and see if I can spot any potential issues (which I did btw, lots and lots of them!) and then discuss what would happen if I ignored these issues and discuss ways of attempting to fix them.

[Cleon]

Score Lines in real life can be deceiving and the same goes for Football Manager too. The results don’t always tell you what happened other than what the final score was. This isn’t always a good thing though as you could play poor and score three goals, yet all three might have come from the penalty spot, been own goals and maybe even set pieces. So you need to be very careful when viewing results as they don’t mean you’re playing well.

I can hear some of you saying ‘what’s it matter if I won though?’ and you’d be right. However it still matters in the grand scheme of things because what happens if you are only winning because of pure luck and not by creating quality play? What happens when the luck runs out and those one nil wins turn into one nil losses? Hopefully this article can shed some light on why context is everything in Football Manager.

These are the results from my first eight games since taking over the manager’s job at Sheffield FC. On face value it looks like a great start and we are scoring plenty and keeping it tight at the back, but is this really a true reflection of what’s really happening during a game. These are the results from my first eight games since taking over the manager’s job at Sheffield FC. On face value it looks like a great start and we are scoring plenty and keeping it tight at the back, but is this really a true reflection of what’s really happening during a game. If we stick with the face value theme we can have a quick glance at the stats from those games to see if they reflect the score lines.

I seemed to have frustrated the opposition to long shots while not giving them much quality. Ourselves seem to finish the chances we got but during the first half we only had two shots, so that suggest we either struggled creating chances or the final ball was poor, either way it amounts to the same thing which is hardly any shots. The second half was an improvement but why? It might have been down to the players connecting better with each other, the opposition might have become tired or maybe they changed shape. None of those questions can be answered though without looking back at the match or watching it all unfold live. So it’s something we need to revisit later.

Here in this game it seems it followed the theme of the first match, poor first half in terms of creating chances but we got better in the second half. Well when I say better, I mean just in terms of shots we had I have no idea if these shots were good or bad yet. We also seemed to have only really had long shots which could be a hint towards poor or lack of movement. But again I’m just guessing or thinking out aloud here but those tend to be the reasons as to why you have long shots. All in all it seems like a scrappy 1-0 win.

Goals, goals, lots of goals! That’s how this match went down and it looks like we created a lot, much more compared to the first two games we played. However we still had a fair amount of long shots but we proved in the first game that we don’t always have to have long shots so why was this game different to that? Maybe the opposition sat deeper and they frustrated me to long shots. Maybe it was a formation issue and I couldn’t provide enough runners or have enough support players so players had no options but to shoot. Overall I’m happy with the scoreline but still left asking questions.

Again we created a decent amount of chances but the quality seems very poor as only four shots were on target. We also had a lot of long shots. We can already see a pattern emerging here from the game stats we’ve looked at so far but we still have no idea why it’s happening.

Statistically this game was very much the same as the other 1-0 win we had but less long shots this time, which is pleasing. There are two other patterns that I’ve noticed and not really mentioned so far as well. One of them is that the opposition don’t seem to create quality chances against us which is a good thing as we are limiting them somehow. The other theme is we are a second half side. We seem to up our game in the second half and that’s when we seem to create more chances.

The long shots aside I’d take game stats like this every day of the week. You don’t need to create 15+ shots a game. You just need quality over quantity. 10 shots, 5 on target and 4 goals that’s fantastic. These are the sort of balanced stats that long-term I’ll be aiming for and hopefully this article goes a long way to putting us on that route.

Same as the game above really, we seem to be finding our feet now and while not creating vast amounts of chances we are scoring a lot of goals. There could be a few reasons why we are starting to find some form now though which I’ll touch upon at the end of part one.

One step forward and to steps back is how this game feels. Yes I won but it seems we lacked the quality of the previous couple of games and had far too many long shots.

So those are the games I’ve played so far, I’m very much playing and writing as I go along but it seems enjoyable at the minute doing it this way. In past series that I’ve done I play ahead and then write-up afterwards which is easier but this time I’m struggling to find playing time so have to do it as we go along.

What can we learn from the matches above then? Nothing really, we get a quick snapshot but it all lacks context which is vital. But saying that we have noticed a few little patterns.

• Long shots are an issue and we need to get to the bottom of this.
• A lack of quality shots in some of the games and a low amount of shots on target is a concern.
• Twenty two goals in eight games we have scored and fifteen of them have all come in the second half of games. So it’s not only are we creating in the second half of games we are also finding a way of finishing the chances too.
• Do we lack movement? Do we have players creating and using space? I need to figure this out because at times based on the stats alone looks like this could be an issue.

Those are the major things I’ve noticed so far. Maybe you can spot something I’ve missed, if so please let me know below.

I was beginning to think that my play was getting better towards the end of those eight games all bar the last match. One of the reasons for this could be that my players are all getting fitter now and while I had a preseason, it takes much longer for semi pro and amateur teams to raise fitness levels of their players. So when the season began I still had a lot of players lacking fitness even though I’d played nine preseason games. Another reason should be down to tactical familiarity as this is also increasing and getting better and better each game so the teams are becoming better. The same can be said for team cohesion too.

Now we’ve looked at the results we now need to analyse the games to see how the 3-5-2 plays and how the players all link up. And also focus on the issues, patterns I mention above and to see if we can spot why it happens. Fixing them will come at the very end as I split how I view things happening in the Match Engine into three easy ways ;

• Analyse
• Identify
• Fix

It really is that simple. Anyone can watch games and anyone can identify tactical issues, even if you think you can’t. You start small with things like seeing your playmaker is actually creating for others. You’d look at his passing options, the space he has, the time he has and who he is passing too. Then you can determine if it’s what you wanted or expected and if not then you can approach fixing it which can be the tricky part. But I see people all the time saying they struggle to identify issues but this is the easy part, maybe just start with the things I mentioned in the sentence before. Look at players individually not as a collective just yet if you feel daunted or inexperienced. Before you can fix anything though you have to identify issues, or you’ll not know what to fix right?!

When I started writing this particular post I planned on it being all one article and mentioned so on Twitter. However it seems to have spiralled out of control and would have ended up a 15k word piece which probably would be far too long. So I’ve had to split it up into sections. The first of those sections is this post obviously then I’ll follow it up over the week with two other parts. This will make it easier for those who struggle with this side of the game too. The other parts will consist of;

• Analyse & Identify
• Solutions & Fixing

I think by keeping them separate I can be more detailed and keep the identity separate from the fixing article so it’s not information overload. As it’ll be a lot to take in with this mini series inside a series approach. It’ll be less confusing and allows me to explain all the possible solutions or approaches you can take. Something which I might have cut down if I kept it all as one article as I was getting wary of the word count.

[Cleon]

In the last article I wrote about the stats and the quick overview they give us with regards to tactics and explained how they don’t really tell you anything useful without adding the context of events that determined the stats. This is the article that will hopefully add that context. The stats did provide a bit of information though as we spotted patterns emerging in majority of the games and those were;

• Long shots are an issue and we need to get to the bottom of this.
• A lack of quality shots in some of the games and a low amount of shots on target is a concern.
• Twenty two goals in eight games we have scored and fifteen of them have all come in the second half of games. So it’s not only are we creating in the second half of games we are also finding a way of finishing the chances too.
• Do we lack movement? Do we have players creating and using space? I need to figure this out because at times based on the stats alone looks like this could be an issue.

Now we are analysing the games we can look out for the above and see how and why these things are happening, whether they be positives or negatives. We need to fully understand how the 3-5-2 I’m using functions. As well as looking out for above, we will be trying to spot other issues too. An eight game sample should be more than enough to get a good sample size of events and to see if we notice any other patterns emerging that the stats didn’t tells us, which I think we will find as we scour back through the matches already played. I’ll not write about all eight games in full detail as that might become boring or make the article far too long but I will discuss the majority of those games especially if the same things keep happening as that indicates there are issues that need sorting out.

In this article I will only be talking about the issues we spot and find and trying to get to the bottom or how and why it happens. There will be no talk of fixing it in this article that will be in the follow on one. This is purely about identifying issues.

Long Shots

I think long shots are a good place to start because the amount I’ve had is quite alarming at times. Plus long shots can mean a few different things so can throw up some interesting issues when you look at them. The main causes of long shots tend to be related to a lack of support or movement from the players around the player currently in possession. This isn’t always the case but is the majority of the time I have found. Not only from my own games but from seeing tactics that other people create and viewing their games, it’s something that a lot of people don’t seem to understand.

The game I’m going to look back at first is the one against Rugby that I won 3-0 but I had eight long shots during that game. The first thing I do is head straight to the analysis page to view the shot.

These are the shots we had during the game and the players who took them. One of the great new additions to Football Manager 2017 is that when you click the dots on the pitch not only can you still view them like always but this year we have the added option of viewing the linked events to the build up to the move. Which is always vital. To understand why something happened the way it does the key details are normally in the build up of the move and not what happened at the end of it.

So when you click the ‘Show Linked Events’ tab it should present you with something like this;

So now we have a general idea of how the shot came about and which players were in the build up of the move. This is great for a quick snapshot of events and you can also click on these and watch the highlights too. Now if I watch the clip back to see the end product (the actual moment the shot takes place) then this is what I see;

Cottingham is my box to box midfielder, he is the one who actually takes the shot. Now we need to watch the build up and see what is happening around him.

In the above screenshot we can see the positioning of my players and while this move started via a throw-in the positioning of players is still poor. That’s more the role and duty allocation though. The central midfielder is the one dropping off into space and offering himself as a passing options. The deep-lying forward has also dropped off but this has taken the defender with him. Now that’s not a bad thing if someone was then actively looking to get between the two centrebacks and attacking the space the deep-lying forward has created but sadly I don’t have this. The complete forward is too far down the pitch really and not as central as I’d like when the deep-lying forward is the one dropping off the front. Ideally I want one striker to drop while the other pushes forward. This would then create space not only for the strikers but the box to box midfielder also.

Then when the box to box midfielder receives the ball he’s have space to run into or someone making a forward run to pass to.

When Cottingham does receive the ball he turns and passes it to the complete forward. However the complete forward is facing away from goal to begin with so when he receives the ball his marker is already on top of him and making life difficult for him. Not only this but it also cuts off the central midfielder and the deep-lying forward as passing options because the opposition’s defenders and midfield are blocking them. Meaning the only pass for the complete forward to make is back to Cottingham.

Another thing I notice is for how deep in the opposition’s final third I am, I have no-one inside the box and there isn’t really anyone actively making a run to try to get into it. This makes life tricky for me but easy for the opposition’s defenders as they can step up and deal with the strikers with ease. In an ideal world I’d like one of the strikers to always be advanced and giving the opposition centreback’s some work to do. In the last two screenshots we can already get a good idea of why the player takes the shot from this kind of distance. If everyone is dropping off the front then who is going to get onto end of chances created or more importantly who is making the kind of movements we need. By the time I had someone even close to being in the box it was too late Cottingham had already explored all his options and realised he didn’t really have any and shot from distance.

The type of scenarios are frustrating but despite what you think it is a tactical issue and comes from having roles and duties that perhaps don’t offer me the type of balance that I need or that simply don’t compliment each other. I know this was only one example of a long shot but viewing three others from the same match I noticed the same type of thing. A real lack of runners and too many people dropping off the front, coming short or moving into the channels.

A Lack of Quality Shots and Low Amount of Shots

A part of this issue is likely to be a side effect of the long shot issue, at least for the quality issue. The lack of shots is probably down to something else like not enough movement, being too cautious or just passing the ball around needlessly. Another factor could also be the oppositions shape, it might have neutralised mine to some extent. Or it might have been something else entirely, the only real way to find out the cause (if I can) is to analyse the games were this is happening. As I’m working on watching games back it’s much easier to find issues compared to watching games in real-time due to it being less stressful and the result already happened.

To analyse the issue this time we need to focus on what the players and team were actually doing when we was in possession of the ball. So that means we need to watch parts of the game to see how we move the ball around and to see the players movement.

After a few minutes of viewing the match I already notice something that is quite concerning. Look at the above image and see the positioning of the players. The complete wingback is just about to release the ball by crossing it. However my strikers and midfield seem very lackadaisical in getting forward. They should be busting a gut to get into the box and on the end of any potential cross but they just aren’t. It’s like they are walking rather than running. If this is a regular occurrence then it’s easy to see why I was struggling to create in this game.

This is another example of me breaking forward and this time the central midfielder is trying to burst forward in order to support attacks which is what you want. However because it’s the deep-lying forward who is running with the ball then up top I am a bit short in numbers due to him being so deep. So any quick counter attacks I have, I could suffer badly with initial numbers I commit forward. I seem a bit too reserved at times with no real urgency. I won’t be discussing fixes here but hopefully the wording I’ve just used is giving you a nudge in the right direction in regards to the thinking in the next article.

 

The short clip above also highlights the issues with being outnumbered by the opposition. While the short passage of play is good, it’s not dangerous or realistically going to trouble the keeper from that kind of distance. I’d much rather have players trying to get beyond the complete forward to support the attacks and offer themselves as a passing options.

I’m not that far into viewing the game and I have already seen enough to know why I’m struggling to create chances of real quality. I’ve seen enough to reaffirm the long shot issue too as both are connected. If support is poor then the only option is to shoot. In fact every little thing I mentioned at the start with what we’d be looking at during this analysis is all linked. It’s like a vicious circle that you can break.

A lack of support = players having no options = players shooting due to it being the only option available.

I am however creating space but this is all pointless currently because no-one is using that space. I’ve also found out why I’m scoring a lot of late goals, there are three main reasons;

• Opposition changes formation
• Opposition players get tired quickly
• I make use of substitutes to add fresh legs to the side.

Due to me playing on a standard mentality structure and having a lack of movement in the side, this has helped late in games because the players have conserved energy much better than the opposition’s players. It’s quite ironic really that the success I’ve had is down to bad tactics on my part haha. This is why the context of the match and the knowledge of knowing what you’ve created works and why is vital. It’s the most important aspect of tactic making, to understand how it works and why.

This is also one of the reasons people might have an amazing run and then suddenly the wheels fall off and they can’t buy a win. I’m pretty certain I’m falling under this category sooner or later. That’s why I now need to concentrate on these issues and sort them out, so I’m not relying on luck and opposition errors to get me results. But instead I want to build a reliable system that works consistently and gets me results and then anything else like luck etc is just an added bonus. Had I not had a look at these matches in more details I’d still be thinking everything is hunky dory even though it quite clearly isn’t.

Other issues

One of the other things I briefly touched upon earlier in the article was the spacing between my midfield and strikers. The gaps between them seems too large at times even with the strikers dropping off the front. So I just want to have a quick check through all the games and see if this is the case or not.

I’m hoping it translates into pictures but can you see above how the strikers seem to be separated from the midfield? It might not seem that bad but for what I’m creating it is because it means the defence and midfield are playing together as a unit and the strikers are kind of on their own. It’s almost as if the team is split into two bands. At times in the examples above I have said the strikers are too deep or not central enough in certain phases of play and that’s true. But when initial attacks happen they’re too advanced. One of the reasons they might be coming deeper later in the move is in search of the ball. Ideally I’d prefer to have the midfield take the ball to the strikers so they can focus on their own roles and do what I expect of them.

I could probably go on and find a lot more issues with the set up I’m using but I won’t just yet. The reason for this is I want to resolve the issues I’ve spoke about already above first before messing with other things. I don’t like to make lots of changes in one go, plus we don’t know how these changes will impact the way I’m playing. So for that reason I find it best to work on a few issues first and resolving them rather than trying to fix everything in one go. Another reason for that is it makes it harder to track if your changes are actually working. If you made twenty or thirty changes in one go, how could you know if they worked or not? So start small and make a few changes at a time, that’s what I’ll be doing as it means I can track the changes better and more efficiently.

Now let’s set about fixing them in the next article………….

[Cleon]

In the last article I spoke about how I analyse and identify issues in my current setup and listed all the things I need to improve upon. This article will cover those changes and see how we fared over a larger sample of games - the entire season in fact.

The main issues in the last article seemed to be;

• Too many long shots.
• Lack of Movement.
• The midfield and defence cut off from the strikers at times or strikers too deep

Those were the three main things I want to focus on in this article and see how my changes affected these issues and if we cured the issues or not.

We have quite a few options for fixing these long shot’s hopefully, we can look at the individuals who are the biggest culprits and maybe alter their player instructions so they don’t shoot as often if that instruction is not hardcoded into the role their assigned. We can also explore using team instructions if we think that is a more suited approach. There is no right or wrong answer to this by the way, as there are many things that influence this specific issue and many different ways to go about fixing them. It comes down to either preferences whether you select TI’s or PI’s to try to fix the issue or trial and error. That’s basically what it comes down to, trial and error.

Some of the issues with long shot’s that I was having was also linked to the other two options I mentioned above. A lack of movement means a lack of support and options for the player on the ball and if they have neither of those, then the only real options are to shoot regardless of the distance between the player and goal. Also if the midfield is cut off from the strikers then again this limits support, supply and passing options further up the field. And again this comes back to giving the player no option but to shoot in most cases. So it’s all linked and is like a never-ending circle and the issues all exist because of one another.

Fixing them is hard because where do you start if they’re all linked together? Well for me fixing the long shot issue first would be pointless as that seems to be the end product for the other two issues. So realistically we need to sort one of the other two issues first and I’m going to start with the strikers either being caught too deep or too high up the pitch as this cuts off supply. If I can make these front two more in tune with the rest of the side then the movement should follow which would have a huge knock on effect for the long shot issue. Even if the movement doesn’t come, then we at least know it's a role or duty issue and can then focus our attention on that.

The Fixes

What are the options we can use for the striker issue. Well again there’s a few things to do here but I think a good place to start would to be look at the roles of the strikers. In the last article I ironically stated that I needed one striker to stay high up the pitch all the time to occupy the defenders and give them some actual work to do. I still stand by this so the first thing I will try is changing one of the striker roles. Obviously I’ll stick with the deep-lying forward for now because I need a striker who attempts to link the midfield from high up the pitch. So the role I’ll be changing is the complete forward role and changing it to the advanced forward one instead. By doing this he’ll be less likely to drop back into deep positions which is what I believe I need more of at times. It’ll likely have some kind of drawback but that’s why I’m focusing on providing balance throughout the side. So if the striker has a drawback then his partner or the players around them need to be able to do the things he can’t, which I think I can do easily in this system.

Change 1 - Striker now an advanced forward instead of complete forward.

One of the other changes I could look at doing to bring the different bands closer together is changing the team shape from flexible to fluid or maybe very fluid. But this is something I am reluctant to do because not only does it bring all the mentalities of the players closer together it also makes the players more creative in their roles. That’s not something I want, I already have a creative player who I want to be the main creative outlet and don’t feel I need everyone in the team to be more creative. I’d rather the roles and duties they have set the default creativeness without using a modifier like team shape to up it, even if it’ll only be upped slightly for majority of players.

If you wanted you could approach your issues by altering team shape if you fully understand what team shape actually is. If not then I suggest reading my very good friend rashidi’s stuff, you can find him on Twitter https://twitter.com/BusttheNet or his YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWUCWx5HNWSuzwGxwVczGPQ or his website https://www.addictedtofm.com/

I’ll not be going into the discussion about team shape as I believe people over complicate it when it's not really needed. I think of it in more simplistic terms and have covered it in-depth before. However if you want to learn about it in greater detail to get your head around just how complicated and complex it is, then definitely check out Rashidi’s stuff he explains it better than anyone else. He is also one of about four people who actually know all the ins and out of the tactical side of Football Manager and was one of the people who really pushed for the recent team shape changes over the past five years or so, so that it was more intricate and had a bigger impact on the tactical side of things. So please check him out if you want to deal with factual stuff and not myths

As I’m not using team shape to bring players closer together then what are the other options?! I could alter roles and duties but that’s a last resort for me as I want to try to achieve it via other methods first as that would limit what roles I could actually use in the long-term and I don’t want any limits as that makes you less flexible. But again changing roles and duties are something you can do if you wanted.

So this basically leaves me with team instructions and player instructions which really won’t help overall. They might make a slight dent in the issue but not much. This leaves me with mentality to change to fix the issues, or at least attempt to fix them. In the first article if you can remember that far back you’ll know I was playing on a standard mentality and wasn’t really planning changing it that much. However things have changed now so I need to adapt somehow. I can change mentality constantly through the matches to see if it some how combats the issues I have or I can just use another one as the standard base I work from. So what I’ll try to do is use the same mentality for the majority of games I have unless I see something unfolding in games then I’ll be reactive and change it.

Now this change will likely surprise a few people as I’ll not be going attacking which a few of the comments on the previous article suggest they thought I would. But instead I’ll be going defensive.
People hear the word defensive and automatically think park the bus stuff but it’s not. That is one particular defensive style of play and there are many more defensive styles you can create which are actually adventurous, as I’ve highlighted in the past with the ‘Defensive Arts’ series on this blog. Using the defensive mentality is purely about risk and slowing things down slightly. But you have to remember that the team instructions, player instructions, roles and duties are what will define how defensive the system you use is and not the overall mentality of the team.

The main reason for this change is to bring the team as a whole slightly lower down the pitch. This won’t really fix the gap issues but it might bring us closer as a unit when breaking forward as the whole team will be slightly deeper than normal. I’m not 100% sure if this change will or not but I think it should in theory. But like everything, in theory and in practise are completely different things.

Change 2 - Go from a standard mentality to a defensive one

For now these are the only two changed I made to see how we get on. I don’t like making too many changes as its hard to keep track of what influenced what during the game if you do a lot of changes.

Already we can see the changes in force in the above screenshot. The advanced forward is already between the defenders (albeit offside!). Before I was witnessing both my strikers dropping off the front which was always easy to defend against. Now though the advanced forward is looking to get beyond the defensive line. The deep-lying forward is now the one dropping off and being the link player. My midfield is also a lot closer to the strikers compared to the last article I wrote already.

This is taken from a different game and this time shows a different dynamic that the advanced forward adds to the team. The whole move started with a long ball played from my wingback to the advanced forward, who received the ball that ran down the wing with it. It was a quick counter attacking move but look how he has dragged the fullback and one of the central defenders with him. In the last article I mentioned how this was something I wanted to do as it creates space and movement. The deep-lying forward is unmarked and the defender has no idea he’s about to run towards the advanced forward and cut across in front of him. Not only this but the box to box midfielder is also busting his gut to get into the box, which is all clear space in front of him. The advanced forward pulls the ball back across goal and the deep-lying forward taps the ball home with one of the easiest finishes he’ll get all season.

The kind of play in the screenshot above is how I want to see my forwards linking up and is something I’ve wanted since the very start. It seems like the role change I made is working. In fact the deep-lying forward is now more involved with the attacking side of things in my set up because of moves like this, something which you might not have expected when you saw the roles. But when you think about it, it makes perfect sense why. The advanced forward is further forward so is an attacking outlet that the midfield and even defenders can look out for with long or direct balls if they wish. When this happens it means the deep-lying forward is attacking from a deeper position so isn’t really marked properly. He’s also scoring quite a lot of goals.

Both of the above players are the ones I used for the deep-lying forward role. As you can see they have scored 32 goals between them which isn’t a bad return at all. They’ve both scored a similar amount of goals per game and have similar assist records which shows the role is working. Which isn’t bad at all especially when you add these goals to the ones the advanced forwards score.

51 goals between them is excellent and having them score goals is what their in the side for. I get goals from the midfielders too but not prolifically, although they have a combined tally of 19 between them so it’s not that bad. But I don’t expect them to get that many that’s what my two forwards are for and it's good to see them scoring.

Long Shot Issue

I’ve not spoke about the long shot issue yet as I wanted to wait until the end of the article for discussing it. Have I fixed it? Yes and no. I’m having better shot quality and creating good chances like highlighted above but sometimes it’s like I’m back at square one. I’ll show you some examples of what I mean.

As you can see in these games the long shots I have seem limited and I seem to finish a lot of the chances I do get, especially in that last screenshot its clinical. You also have to remember that you can’t fully eliminate long shots and even if you could you shouldn’t. Players should still be able to shoot from distance but it should be down to choice rather than forced because of lack of movement, space and supporting options etc. Shooting from distance is okay if you’ve providing all those things but at the very start my players were not doing this. In some games this is still the case though like these;

I know what you’re all thinking and yes I did win the games so what’s it matter? It probably doesn’t in hindsight but it still shows there could be potential issues with long shots. In fact I’ve already identified why in most cases but that’ll be for another article. Sometimes it's down to the players and how rubbish they are and other times it can be down to the formation you face. This is why I’ll be talking about them in another article, as I want to cover every formation I play against and tell you the weakness and strengths of both formations against each other.

So the long shot issue is somewhat fixed I’d say but I still need to analyse them further and make further adjustments as I progress and improve the quality of players that play for us. Tactically though the long shots are no longer because of a lack of options any longer so we have made progress. I’m also getting a lot of shots on target too, the best in the league in fact.

This is always a good sign as it shows you are doing well compared to the rest of the league so I don’t have to worry too much as we are heading in the right direction.

Overall I had a great first season at the club and managed an invincible season but that doesn’t mean I have the perfect tactic and set up because truth be told, I’m a long way of achieving that. I’m talking years not weeks or months. But none the less we made the best of what we had and got lucky in a few of the games. Rather than writing lots more about the season I’ll do a separate article in the near future and made the save game available on a season by season basis too. That way you can all scour through it if you choose to, to see how I played in much more de

[Cleon]

Reserved

[Cleon]

Reserved

[phnompenhandy]

Brilliant Cleon, this is just what I have been waiting for, your detailed analysis of a lower league career. I do hope you persist over several seasons all the way until FM18 because that's exactly what I'm doing.

Could you give a resume about the quality in your squad? I love using wing backs but when I assess my lower league players I never find any with the right strengths. I'm particularly intrigued to seeing you have a complete wingback at this level. Due to my less adventuresome nature, I'm using a bog-standard 442 with full backs on defensive mode.

Whilst my formation is not the same, what ought to be directly helpful to me is your methods of young player development. As well as discussing your training methods, could you incorporate into your analysis the quality of your coaching staff and training facilities. One thing I noticed in my current campaign is that my best young players hit a glass ceiling and didn't improve at all for 18 months. As soon as an upgrade in my training facilities was completed they started move forward again, so I'd like to know more about the limitations of poor facilities and insufficient/poor quality coaching personnel.

[Toffle]

The kind of reading that takes me away from what I should be doing. I hate love you.

I'll be following this topic with close attention.

[Rashidi]

You're back :-)

[Overmars]

I have been using this formation with very similar player roles this past week.

• Your point about not wanting a screen in front of your central defenders made me laugh. I have played the middle one of my central midfielders as a DLP(d), CM(d), and CM(s), and he can't help but accumulate enormous amounts of tackles and interceptions. My central defenders have nothing to do, which is good, but probably means I'm being too cautious and limiting my attack.
• I have had to use the work ball into box shout to try to curtail some of the excessive crossing from my wingbacks (over 50 crosess in a few matches).
• Although we don't create an abundance of chances, I do like that our chances seem to be shots from central attacking positions rather than those deceiving shots from bad angles that various 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 tactics often generate.
• I like your point about the flat three providing tactical versatility without affecting familiarity.
• I also like that this formation can easily morph into a higher press version if wingbacks are retrained to fill in as defensive wingers. Very handy when chasing a game.

[ozilthegunner]

I'll be following this closely.

I am currently working on a 3-4-3 variety as well but mostly to take advantage of my great AMCs.

So I'm trying to play with 1 striker and 2 AMCs behind him, rather than 2 strikers and 1 AMC.

I'm also hoping to use wide players in the midfield strata, because I have strength there (and my fullbacks aren't quite as good all around) but will have to see how that works defensively.

I've never really tried a 3 center back setup before so happy more experienced people are trying it out too and giving us insights

[Cleon]

Post 4 has been updated

[Rashidi]

I find that in this me you got to work really hard in analysing why goals are being scored and it's interesting what you pointed out about the lackadaisical atttiude of some of the players.

i had the same issues at the start.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I find that in this me you got to work really hard in analysing why goals are being scored and it's interesting what you pointed out about the lackadaisical atttiude of some of the players.

i had the same issues at the start.

It's great that you have to work harder, it's more challenging. My strikers are scoring I think they have around 20 goals in 12 games for one of them then the other has around 15 in 20 games. But when you watch them in the ME it's like 75% of the time they were doing it half arsed with no urgency at all. I've also sorted the issue now which I'll update with a future post  

[jukilo]

Very nice articles. You make it so easy that is almost outrageous that I don't remember to simplify my thought process.

The thing that is the most difficult for me is to know how to choose the best players for the style you want to play. I've seen countless times you playing with certain styles and choose certain players that I don't understand why you make it like that. 

Is there any possibility to discuss this? What's your thought process on this? You select the roles first or see the players in first order? how do you this? 

Cheers and nice to see you back!!!

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, jukilo said:

Very nice articles. You make it so easy that is almost outrageous that I don't remember to simplify my thought process.

The thing that is the most difficult for me is to know how to choose the best players for the style you want to play. I've seen countless times you playing with certain styles and choose certain players that I don't understand why you make it like that. 

Is there any possibility to discuss this? What's your thought process on this? You select the roles first or see the players in first order? how do you this? 

Cheers and nice to see you back!!!

In all honest there is no real though process behind it. I pick a style I want to create then I immediately implement it into the side regardless of whether the players are suited to it or not. Then I just work with what I see happening like I discuss above and adapt like I'm currently showing above. While at the same time I'll be bringing in players who do suit the style I'm building and developing them towards it. Basically that's it.

I did another series where I go into more details about the development side of things, it was the Arsenal Invinsibles Series I did which you can find here;

http://sisportscentre.com/category/the-invincibles-arsenal/page/2/

[jukilo]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

In all honest there is no real though process behind it. I pick a style I want to create then I immediately implement it into the side regardless of whether the players are suited to it or not. Then I just work with what I see happening like I discuss above and adapt like I'm currently showing above. While at the same time I'll be bringing in players who do suit the style I'm building and developing them towards it. Basically that's it.

I did another series where I go into more details about the development side of things, it was the Arsenal Invinsibles Series I did which you can find here;

http://sisportscentre.com/category/the-invincibles-arsenal/page/2/

I have all your threads bookmarked and that one isn't exception. 

When I started playing FM I was a bit straight forward and I just played 433 with wingers in big clubs. That served me well for sometimes and others don't. But I played in a simple way.

With ths years passing I changed my approach and now I like to play more cautiously/defensive (Simeone or "vintage" Mourinho form early days) but I don't know how to put this on ME. Also, your threads, Rashidi's and others made me complicate the game trying to pay attention to a whole new different things.

But for exemple. Let's take your "art of..." series threads. When you choose that play styles, even then you didn't pay attention to the attributes of the players to choose the roles or which players to get more game time? 

Maybe I need to play in a more simple way, paying attention to the players I have, accept it and trying to build on this. The thing is I don't know which attributes to look for, what to look in games, etc. Everything seems all right until I suffer 2 goals in a row haha. 

[Cleon]

Quote

But for exemple. Let's take your "art of..." series threads. When you choose that play styles, even then you didn't pay attention to the attributes of the players to choose the roles or which players to get more game time? 

You've seen the players I had and the teams I managed during those series, you can see that some players wouldn't have been ideal for the style etc

Players are important but that comes with long-term squad building. The end goal is to have the perfect players for all position for the style you have created. However what are you supposed to do in the mean time if you don't start building towards that end goal of perfect players to compliment the style?  If you don't start now then how would you know what a perfect play for the play-style would be? You'd not know how the play-style currently played and what would need improving. You'd have progressed maybe 5 seasons and brought in ideal players in theory but when you then began to play the style you wanted those players might in actual fact not be ideal how you first though. That's another reason why it's important to just starting building towards that straight away.

I've done threads about how I look for things and even highlighted it in the latest post in this. Apart from that no-one can really help you with that side of things as its down to you to spot the issues I'm afraid

[phnompenhandy]

I'm into my 4th season now and all along I've been doing as you say - moulding my youths into the kind of players I want for my system. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the results.  There is one particular problem that I have to manage though, and I wonder if it relates to your observations re. the lackadaisical attitude of your team.  Is it the tactics, is it the players, or is it a combination of both?

My situation is that every season my team is rock bottom of the table for work rate.  It hasn't stopped us gaining promotions, and in my less-able ability to analyse my matches I don't see clearly just what difference it makes. I even wonder if it's like you noticed, that it sort of mitigates their limited stamina and allows them to keep going for 90 minutes whereas the opposition tires more. Any thoughts?

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I'm into my 4th season now and all along I've been doing as you say - moulding my youths into the kind of players I want for my system. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the results.  There is one particular problem that I have to manage though, and I wonder if it relates to your observations re. the lackadaisical attitude of your team.  Is it the tactics, is it the players, or is it a combination of both?

My situation is that every season my team is rock bottom of the table for work rate.  It hasn't stopped us gaining promotions, and in my less-able ability to analyse my matches I don't see clearly just what difference it makes. I even wonder if it's like you noticed, that it sort of mitigates their limited stamina and allows them to keep going for 90 minutes whereas the opposition tires more. Any thoughts?

The lackadaisical issue happens with top players too I've found but it's even more apparent in the lower leagues. So the lower you play the worst it'll be. But I also think players decision making in the final third is a ME issue, they don't seem to be that intelligent this year compared to part versions. I'm not sure what the exact issues are but you can notice the poor decision making time and time again.  Some of it can be offset with a higher mentality/tempo change though.

What division are you in now? It could be that like me you conserve energy much better than the opposition and winning games due to players being fresher. An indication of this would be second half performances and scoring a high amount during this time.

[phnompenhandy]

Level 9 at the moment, having started in level 12. One of the 'delights' of playing at such a low level is that you do see with greater clarity what the lack of attributes means, and decisions is perhaps the best example.  You do constantly see players dithering on the ball while you're screaming at them to play that quick through ball, or "man on!!!"

Work rate aside, my team is usually number one or thereabouts in the division for mentals, whilst well down the list for technicals. As such, I did what I've never done before with a lower league side and set up a tactic with a fluid philosophy rather than structured. It's actually working really well, so that my defensive full backs do get upfield and lay on crosses.

[Fosse]

I'm guessing you knew how to solve the problems immediately it's just that you wanted to split into different articles. 

I think the change that you'll make (made) is to go from standard to control so the midfielders are closer to the strikers because they're more aggressive,  changing mentality would in theory make the strikers push up against the defender a bit more too. This is conjecture though so I could be completely wrong

[TheJanitor]

Great thread as always, post 3 has been really inspiring!

Kind of a stupid question, but I'm curious about the roles you chose for the wing-backs. Why WB/a and CWB/s and not vice-versa in terms of duties? It just seems like the route most players take is to have the more naturally aggressive role coupled with a more attacking mentality. Is it to have more balance in both flanks?

[Cleon]

10 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Great thread as always, post 3 has been really inspiring!

Kind of a stupid question, but I'm curious about the roles you chose for the wing-backs. Why WB/a and CWB/s and not vice-versa in terms of duties? It just seems like the route most players take is to have the more naturally aggressive role coupled with a more attacking mentality. Is it to have more balance in both flanks?

It's for balance and even though I want a more attacking role in the CWB I still need him to defend hence the support. Plus they roam about a fair bit so wanted to limit just how far. I think in a lot of cased the WBA and CWBS offer better balance that two WB's on support and attack. Especially when I have no-one down the wings but the wingbacks.

[TheJanitor]

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

It's for balance and even though I want a more attacking role in the CWB I still need him to defend hence the support. Plus they roam about a fair bit so wanted to limit just how far. I think in a lot of cased the WBA and CWBS offer better balance that two WB's on support and attack. Especially when I have no-one down the wings but the wingbacks.

I see, and how the WB/A and CWB/s differ from each-other? I mean, I know the insturctions are different, but do the roles behave differently in a clear manner? I'm asking because the CWB is a role I almost never use because it seems very similar to the WB role. I don't spot how different they play during matches.

[Rui]

I've been trialling out a 3-5-2 (the 2nd variant you've shown with the AMC) in my new Villa save during pre-season and have been frustrated with the amount of crosses the WB's deliver. WB(s) curtails the issue but then they don't get forward enough. "Work ball into box" appears to help to an extent but still the vast majority of my attacks end with a cross. Perhaps this formation is contradictory as to how I like to see a team play - that is prefer to probe (-> through ball) rather than to cross if space permits. Just annoying that WB(a)/CWB(s/a) have the PI "Cross More Often" by default. 

[higgins]

I had a (quick) test with 3-5-2 and, as you pointed out, the first thing I noticed was the strikers being disconnected from the rest of the squad, the images you posted show it clearly and using a DLF doesn't seem to fix the problem.

What kind of tweaks are you going to adopt here?

My first idea was to use a diamond shaped midfield but probably this would change too much the original idea behind 3-5-2, maybe a more fluid team shape could help to have your strikers more involved?

Nice thread.

[loklokno123]

I feel 3-5-2 is very vulnerable to formation with 3 AMC

When facing 3 AMC , my WBs do not participate in defending ..... 

How to solve this problem? or maybe it relates to the attribute ? 

[Cleon]

10 hours ago, Rui said:

I've been trialling out a 3-5-2 (the 2nd variant you've shown with the AMC) in my new Villa save during pre-season and have been frustrated with the amount of crosses the WB's deliver. WB(s) curtails the issue but then they don't get forward enough. "Work ball into box" appears to help to an extent but still the vast majority of my attacks end with a cross. Perhaps this formation is contradictory as to how I like to see a team play - that is prefer to probe (-> through ball) rather than to cross if space permits. Just annoying that WB(a)/CWB(s/a) have the PI "Cross More Often" by default. 

You really wouldn't use a 3-5-2 if you wanted to probe the ball. There are far better suited formations to use.

 

1 hour ago, higgins said:

I had a (quick) test with 3-5-2 and, as you pointed out, the first thing I noticed was the strikers being disconnected from the rest of the squad, the images you posted show it clearly and using a DLF doesn't seem to fix the problem.

What kind of tweaks are you going to adopt here?

My first idea was to use a diamond shaped midfield but probably this would change too much the original idea behind 3-5-2, maybe a more fluid team shape could help to have your strikers more involved?

Nice thread.

I'll be discussing this in the next article

53 minutes ago, loklokno123 said:

I feel 3-5-2 is very vulnerable to formation with 3 AMC

When facing 3 AMC , my WBs do not participate in defending ..... 

How to solve this problem? or maybe it relates to the attribute ? 

If your WB's aren't contributing to defending then it's something you are doing wrong and not just an attribute issue. WB's will always defend, as they revert back to the wingback positions and drop even deeper to form a back 5. 

[Wells]

Will using F9s be good for two strikers or maybe one? so the space between can be closer than that of DLFs ?

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, Wells said:

Will using F9s be good for two strikers or maybe one? so the space between can be closer than that of DLFs ?

It would still be the same issue with one F9 and having two F9's wouldn't really solve the issue that I need one striker to play high does it? I mentioned throughout the analysis that two strikers dropping off the front was bad as it makes it easier for the opposition to defend against. 

[Wells]

@Cleon

I see and what about If I drop one of the striker and use AMC instead with attack duty? 

I have been using 3-5-2 now with Eastleigh, what I found out is you won't get so many clear cut chances compared to likes of 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3/433 but the advantage of it is, you will concede far less goals compared to those and the same time you won't score many either, so it is balanced.

I have kept it standard mentality, maybe I think I should try control one to see if more clear cut chances will be created.

[Cleon]

Quote

@Cleon

I see and what about If I drop one of the striker and use AMC instead with attack duty? 

Depends what you are creating and why. For me its not an options though as I want to play the shape I've outlined. I've no idea how you want to play though.

Quote

I have been using 3-5-2 now with Eastleigh, what I found out is you won't get so many clear cut chances compared to likes of 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3/433

This isn't true, the shape you use doesn't define how many clear cut chances you get. That's all down to how well you provide and create chances. The shape is irrelevant.

Quote

, you will concede far less goals compared to those and the same time you won't score many either, so it is balanced.

Again this isn't true either, the shape doesn't mean you concede less, if it did everyone would use it. Whether you use 2 at the back, 3 at the back, 4 at the back or even 5, it's all about the correct balance and having players covering and recovering space and allowing the opposition not to get through. The shape isn't important. The roles and duties are and what the player is actually doing during the defensive phases of play determine if you're likely to concede or not.

Quote

I have kept it standard mentality, maybe I think I should try control one to see if more clear cut chances will be created.

I'm not sure of your logic or reasoning's but why would changing mentality create more clear cut chances? For those to increase you need to increase the quality of the chances you are creating with will be down to the players with their roles and duty. Changing mentality will hardly have any direct bearing on the amount of these you create. You need to focus on what the players are doing with the ball in order to up the frequency. 

[ajsr1982]

I like the 3-5-2, and I think it comes with a number of subtleties. I find it interesting that you set it up with a flat three in central midfield. Great for getting your midfield runners into the 'half spaces' between the opposition FBs and CBs due to the slightly wider positioning of LMC and RMC (as well as more defensive support for WBs), but is it suited to a two-striker formation? My logic - which may be wrong - tells me that a central lone striker with a BBM and a CM/A running into the space either side of him could be lethal, but does the presence of another striker complicate matters there?

Sometimes when I've set this up before, I've gone with two support roles in central midfield and then someone in the AMC slot with the defence pushed up to close the gap to the midfield. I often feel that with a three-man defence you can afford to be slightly bolder in midfield. I'm not sure if you lose the essence of a 3-5-2 there however, or whether the distinction between that and a 3-4-1-2 is moot.

[Wells]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Depends what you are creating and why. For me its not an options though as I want to play the shape I've outlined. I've no idea how you want to play though.

This isn't true, the shape you use doesn't define how many clear cut chances you get. That's all down to how well you provide and create chances. The shape is irrelevant.

Again this isn't true either, the shape doesn't mean you concede less, if it did everyone would use it. Whether you use 2 at the back, 3 at the back, 4 at the back or even 5, it's all about the correct balance and having players covering and recovering space and allowing the opposition not to get through. The shape isn't important. The roles and duties are and what the player is actually doing during the defensive phases of play determine if you're likely to concede or not.

I'm not sure of your logic or reasoning's but why would changing mentality create more clear cut chances? For those to increase you need to increase the quality of the chances you are creating with will be down to the players with their roles and duty. Changing mentality will hardly have any direct bearing on the amount of these you create. You need to focus on what the players are doing with the ball in order to up the frequency. 

I get what you are saying but I will not just say anything I want also i'm not that good with tactics, but what i'm saying is what I saw and analysed from the game.. I have done a 2 full seasons with 4-2-3-1 fluid formation and this 3-5-2 one and so the 4-2-3-1 had conceded a lot and at the same time scored more while the latter is the opposite, and I have kept everything simple, No PI's and TI's.. why did this happen then for your reasoning.

[puffascruffowitz]

I tried a similar formation with 2 WBS instead of WBA/CWS, we were very solid defensively, but I did feel my 2 strikers were isolated too often. I played with using one CM as a AMC to support my strikers, but then we didn't have the solidity in midfield.

I think I'll revisit it and use a DLP/D since I was doing it with a BWM/D.

Do you think it's fair to say that using a slightly more creative player as a BWM would give the same results as a DLP? Because I don't see much difference between a BWM vs a DLP when we're in possession. They seem to both offer the same thing, a sort of stationary position and ability to recycle possession and clean up any sloppy clearances.

[roggiotis]

@Cleon

Are u intend to apply a specific philosophy regarding your play ( mentality -shape) like what you did with the Arsenal Invincibles , or u start with Standard-structure and adopt game to game (and in game)  ?

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, roggiotis said:

@Cleon

Are u intend to apply a specific philosophy regarding your play ( mentality -shape) like what you did with the Arsenal Invincibles , or u start with Standard-structure and adopt game to game (and in game)  ?

I've started with the specific philosophy that I want and intend to use. You'll see it develop over time hopefully

[carlowsaint19]

Super read and I'll be delving into the invincibles thread you linked this weekend. Looking forward to the next instalment.

[yipster1986]

How's the next article coming along mate? I'm eagerly awaiting your fixes to those problems you were having. I have my own in mind but I'm no genious when it comes to tactics

[vkastanas]

Although my stats show that I create a lot and I create quality shots they also say that I don't create CCC. Is this something to be worried?

[Cleon]

13 hours ago, yipster1986 said:

How's the next article coming along mate? I'm eagerly awaiting your fixes to those problems you were having. I have my own in mind but I'm no genious when it comes to tactics

I've not played FM for about a week so not had time to finish it off completely. I'm hoping this weekend I can though.

30 minutes ago, vkastanas said:

Although my stats show that I create a lot and I create quality shots they also say that I don't create CCC. Is this something to be worried?

As long as you create quality chances the number of CCC's doesn't matter because how FM works them out it doesn't actually mean it was an easy chance. The best thing you can do is completely ignore the CCC stat.

[Cleon]

13 hours ago, yipster1986 said:

How's the next article coming along mate? I'm eagerly awaiting your fixes to those problems you were having. I have my own in mind but I'm no genious when it comes to tactics

I've not played FM for about a week so not had time to finish it off completely. I'm hoping this weekend I can though.

30 minutes ago, vkastanas said:

Although my stats show that I create a lot and I create quality shots they also say that I don't create CCC. Is this something to be worried?

As long as you create quality chances the number of CCC's doesn't matter because how FM works them out it doesn't actually mean it was an easy chance. The best thing you can do is completely ignore the CCC stat.

[vkastanas]

By quality chances I mean that the total number of long shots and off target shot is relatively low compared to total shots and on target shots or at least not too worring... This is what you mean too, right?

[QSF25]

@Cleon What's your club dna for this save on long term building.

 

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, vkastanas said:

By quality chances I mean that the total number of long shots and off target shot is relatively low compared to total shots and on target shots or at least not too worring... This is what you mean too, right?

How do you know they are quality though? I showed above how the stats in isolation mean absolutely nothing and can be misleading. Having shot on target is always good but are the shots actually good chances or not? What I mean is, you are asking me about the details of your save and what they mean. Only you have access to that, not me

2 hours ago, QSF25 said:

@Cleon What's your club dna for this save on long term building.

 

To recruit and develop players who will enhance the shape and system I use. I want the right type of players to fit how I hope the tactic plays out long-term. I doubt I'll make drastic changes as I rise through the ranks so player recruitment will always be the same regardless of division i am in and that is to recruit suitable players. That means not buying players just because they look good but instead signing them as they fit the system above all else. I'll be showing more of this as I progress but it's been a bad 10 days for playing FM for me, had absolutely zero playing time.

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, vkastanas said:

By quality chances I mean that the total number of long shots and off target shot is relatively low compared to total shots and on target shots or at least not too worring... This is what you mean too, right?

How do you know they are quality though? I showed above how the stats in isolation mean absolutely nothing and can be misleading. Having shot on target is always good but are the shots actually good chances or not? What I mean is, you are asking me about the details of your save and what they mean. Only you have access to that, not me

2 hours ago, QSF25 said:

@Cleon What's your club dna for this save on long term building.

 

To recruit and develop players who will enhance the shape and system I use. I want the right type of players to fit how I hope the tactic plays out long-term. I doubt I'll make drastic changes as I rise through the ranks so player recruitment will always be the same regardless of division i am in and that is to recruit suitable players. That means not buying players just because they look good but instead signing them as they fit the system above all else. I'll be showing more of this as I progress but it's been a bad 10 days for playing FM for me, had absolutely zero playing time.

[vkastanas]

13 minutes ago, Cleon said:

How do you know they are quality though? I showed above how the stats in isolation mean absolutely nothing and can be misleading. Having shot on target is always good but are the shots actually good chances or not? What I mean is, you are asking me about the details of your save and what they mean. Only you have access to that, not me

Fair enough! More watching required then, not only the long shots but on target shots as well! What is quality though?

Another one, if a player has options (pass, run into the penalty box alone) but decides to shot from long is just his decision rating that will change this?

[vkastanas]

Another question came while watching some highlights! What counts as a long shot? Everything outside the area?