Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[BMNJohn]

16 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

I have trouble with my DLP(d) not getting a consistent good average rating..sometimes he isn't the playmaker of the team I want him to be..

I like the defensive solitude that he brings but I want him more dominant on the ball, giving more passes and being more on the ball, now it's more my 2 CM(s) that do that work..

Any suggestions to achieve this?

Post him so we can see his Attributes. That said, when watching him, to me a DLP(D) isn't exactly a creator. It's mostly a somewhat more defensive CM/DM while being better on the ball than more defensive focused options like CM(D), DM(D), A (D) or BWM(D) but ever so slightly less of a defender; a game of comprises. If your DLP(D) is excellent with the ball, you could give him PPMs like "Likes to Switch Ball To Other Flank", "Tries killer balls often", "Comes Deep To Get Ball" (from your GK/CBs), give him the PI to try "More Risky Passes". If you have a tutor, you could teach him "Try To Play Way Out Of Trouble". You also have to consider that he is in a position where he cannot afford to lose the ball, so be careful with what PPMs/PIs you give him as a poor pass will expose your defence immediately.

To me it isn't exactly an issue: a player like Busquets who would fit the bill nicely isn't the primary playmaker of his team either; just see how many goals or even assists (with or without set pieces) he has in FM per season when playing as a DM. He has about 12 goals in over 400+ matches with Barcelona! Sure his "Plays Short Simple Passes" PPM isn't helping, but don't expect too much out of your DLP(D). Also, by nature a DLP(D), even in a Very Fluid system has a low Mentality (which is required in this system). As long as he works well when you watch him play, I don't think there's much of an issue. The rating system isn't that important.

Edited June 18, 2017 by BMNJohn

[mbabbs]

On 18/06/2017 at 01:48, BadAss88 said:

I have trouble with my DLP(d) not getting a consistent good average rating..sometimes he isn't the playmaker of the team I want him to be..

I like the defensive solitude that he brings but I want him more dominant on the ball, giving more passes and being more on the ball, now it's more my 2 CM(s) that do that work..

Any suggestions to achieve this?

Mine usually floats around 6.9. He's not the goalscorer in the team but he does his bit.

[Cholo991]

I used this system for 5 seasons with Ajax and eventually won everything. Awesome, mate. Even though at first glance when I saw the formation itself, I was a bit skeptical, you proved me wrong and it felt so good.

After that, I tried using your Wales tactic as I wanted something completely different, a switch from more fluid to more structured and it worked out well too. Looking forward to some new thread in the future.

[craigd84]

1 hour ago, Cholo991 said:

I used this system for 5 seasons with Ajax and eventually won everything. Awesome, mate. Even though at first glance when I saw the formation itself, I was a bit skeptical, you proved me wrong and it felt so good.

After that, I tried using your Wales tactic as I wanted something completely different, a switch from more fluid to more structured and it worked out well too. Looking forward to some new thread in the future.

Im with you, its immense as Ajax won the league and Europa league in my first season (we got eliminated from the CL) I rotated this with my own 433 narrow for some games. 

 

This tactic just seems to work with Ajax, with my Liverpool team its ok, not ground breaking i still prefer my 433 but like i say.. Ajax just seems to work.

 

I did change the striker to a DLF(A) as i felt he was more linked to the CAM. I use Wesley Sniejder in the AM slot and he has 11 assists in 16 games with 3 goals.

My DLP (D) gets ALOT of ball in our half which is my understanding of the role is that he isnt the prime creator he is generally the guy who assists the one making the final assist, that and he is a ball magnet in defensive and build up stages, once we are on the attack he really doesnt do much but is VERY important for me.. I use Schone in this role even Nouri... despite him having moves into channels ppm.

[Cholo991]

I used Bazoer or Sensi as a dlp. He doesn't get as many assists as wingers or some other players do, but he is a crucial passing option. I had some luck after few seasons with transfers. I managed to sell Klaasen to Bayern after one season for 34 mil euros, and get him back after season and a half for just 10. I also got Coric from Dinamo Zagreb and Odergaard and sold them together for around 70 million. I got Sergej MIlinkovic-Savic from Lazio, Franco Sensi from Sassuolo. Oh, yeah, I also got Rajkovic from Maccabi Tel Aviv and sold him to Milan for some big money and got Cilesen back to Ajax from Barca and an ideal player for this style of play Sommer. He's great with ball in his feet and awesome when it comes to rushing out.

[BadAss88]

I'm having trouble getting my lone striker to score goals..his rating is also really low most of the time..so I was trying to change roles but haven't found one, which gets him scoring

any suggestions?

[craigd84]

@BadAss88 set him up as a DLF (A)

 

UPDATE Season 2, i finally won the Dutch Cup, i Won the league of game 26 IIRC and.... the Champions League!! Im using updates by Pr0 and managed to sign Ibrahimovic from EVERTON lol in January for 10 million pounds and he was lethal in every game except the the CL final which we beat Bayern 1-0 in a very drab and boring match. En route to the final we beat barca 6-1 at home Ibra 3 and Dolberg 2 with Buitink getting 1. Klassen was MY player of the season scoring 19 from CM (s) role. I absolutely love this save.

 

Im in Season 3 preparing for the World club cup, my CL hopes are looking a bit rough although as hammering to Man City in my group helped me big time. I have been lucky in a few of the group games.

 

Using this tactic modified by me 

 

if anyone is interested i use:

the middle cb De Ligt BPD (C) with hold position and much less closing down, i rarely see him running forwards to challenge goal kicks and get caught out. 

and the striker to DLF (A) the play between the wingers amc and the rcm is beautiful to watch.

Edited June 26, 2017 by craigd84

[A_BVB_D]

In first season I won the Supercup against Bayern using that tactic with a modified AP (with hold position and - i think - move into channels) he just moved swiftly, Boateng and Hummels never knew what happened; And also the Europa League after losing to Sporting Lisboa 3-1 at home and beating them 4-0 (or the other way aroung).

Second season started poorly but after 8-9 rounds it was just Borussia and Bayern and won the title after a great play - Bayern had 2-2 and I had to beat by at least 4 goals to get top spot, and ended 5-1.

The tactic works wonderfully and sometimes the AM can be transitioned to a DM if you're playing against a fast moving team (i would assume, worked for me) to cut passes and keep possession.

Now I don't want to go back to the game because everybody wants to leave to Bayern, UTD and City and Barcelona just because they won a title. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by A_BVB_D

[mbabbs]

On 25/06/2017 at 18:56, BadAss88 said:

I'm having trouble getting my lone striker to score goals..his rating is also really low most of the time..so I was trying to change roles but haven't found one, which gets him scoring

any suggestions?

I use mine as a CF(A) and I rotate the position between 3 players (2 established and one young). If one slacks off then I tell them to improve and give them a bit of time in the reserves. All my CF's have good work rate, teamwork, first touch, determination, pace, finishing, composure, decisions, heading and are competent at passing.

[Marc.Foster050]

Always wanted a save using 3 at the back but never got it to work. hasn't necessarily been the back 3 with the issue it was the constant diagonal balls out to the wingers catching me out. Having read this I haven't copied it as my players are far from good enough at the moment but taken the idea of flooding the middle and pushing up to prevent space in the middle has really cut out the opposition having the time to play that ball as they get suffocated. turned the season around I started playing it and have kicked on from there. Playing in Italy I'm loving that I have a back 3 formation that is working!

 

Love reading your threads Ozil always explains parts of the game I've overlooked but make quite a big difference.

 

Also never really paid much attention to tutoring and training young players just hoped my staff would do a good job but since I've started paying attention had 3 players break into first team squad within 3 seasons!

 

Brilliant work as ever @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Crownroyaldaddy]

This tactic/thread saved my Wolves save from being sacked. 

 

It was year 5 and the board had issues an ultimatum with 5 games remaining and in reglegation position. This tactic got me my points and kept me in the PL.

That summer, i overhauled the whole squad to better fit these tactics. Im now sitting in 6th place after the new year and am finding a lot of success.

Just sold my 21 yo winger to Man City for $115 mil so its time to add some players.

[botulum]

I have a question about player instructions, regarding closing down. What instructions did you give to your players, i saw that DLP has closing down much less but what about the rest of the team? Do i suppose to tell them close down much less to maintain the formation shape or close down more (or sometimes, depending on position) to stay with the opposition players? What is the perfect instruction, in your opinion, for every position? And what about mark tighter, what does it change when it is turn off or on?

Thanks in advance for answer

 

[Joey Numbaz]

I am thinking about tweaking this to be a little more defensive to help the back line ... thoughts on this formation? Would there be a better role for the DM than HB considering the other roles?

[BMNJohn]

8 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

I am thinking about tweaking this to be a little more defensive to help the back line ... thoughts on this formation? Would there be a better role for the DM than HB considering the other roles?

I'm not sure what you're attempting here with these choices, and you're definitively drifting away from the spirit of the tactic. HB will (or at least, should) drop between the two Centre-Backs, but he then won't be as available to recycle possession. Mind that using a DM instead of a defensive minded CM elongates the shape of the team while using a CM widens it but reduces depth. I personally like using a DM instead of a CM it since I feel they intercept more balls that way and tend not to get as many balls in their back as a defensive CM would, balls which the CD (C) often tries to intercept, leaving your backline terribly exposed if he misses. The elongated shape brings more depth both for you... and the opposition, so be careful. It's a matter of taste, each proposition have their advantages and their drawbacks.

RPM(S) isn't static at all and often dribble into dead-ends, which is unlike the base tactic where we're using a fairly static player who doesn't hesitate to step into the box when needed; the RPM does everything but that (id est they're not static and don't step into the box that often). Libero (A) doesn't do much: most of the time they just run back and forth depending of whether the team has the ball or not. They could've been something, they're not as terrible as they used to be in the few previous versions of FM, but there's a reason they disappeared from modern football... and from FM. Also, they don't work much if at all when there's a player in the DM strata.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting and finding your way. I just don't understand what you're getting at with these choices at all.

Edited July 31, 2017 by BMNJohn

[craigd84]

6 hours ago, BMNJohn said:

I'm not sure what you're attempting here with these choices, and you're definitively drifting away from the spirit of the tactic. HB will (or at least, should) drop between the two Centre-Backs, but he then won't be as available to recycle possession. Mind that using a DM instead of a defensive minded CM elongates the shape of the team while using a CM widens it but reduces depth. I personally like using a DM instead of a CM it since I feel they intercept more balls that way and tend not to get as many balls in their back as a defensive CM would, balls which the CD (C) often tries to intercept, leaving your backline terribly exposed if he misses. The elongated shape brings more depth both for you... and the opposition, so be careful. It's a matter of taste, each proposition have their advantages and their drawbacks.

RPM(S) isn't static at all and often dribble into dead-ends, which is unlike the base tactic where we're using a fairly static player who doesn't hesitate to step into the box when needed; the RPM does everything but that (id est they're not static and don't step into the box that often). Libero (A) doesn't do much: most of the time they just run back and forth depending of whether the team has the ball or not. They could've been something, they're not as terrible as they used to be in the few previous versions of FM, but there's a reason they disappeared from modern football... and from FM. Also, they don't work much if at all when there's a player in the DM strata.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting and finding your way. I just don't understand what you're getting at with these choices at all.

To be fair he is using a VERY similar tactic to me and that defence with the dm works superbly well though i would change the HB to a BWM.

[Joey Numbaz]

6 hours ago, craigd84 said:

To be fair he is using a VERY similar tactic to me and that defence with the dm works superbly well though i would change the HB to a BWM.

Thanks for the comments (and to BMNJohn as well). I was thinking about a BWM, so I could try that too.

Part of it is wanting to make a Libero work, while keeping the five across the middle from the original tactic too. And this is mainly as a way to deal with teams who use 3-4 players in the AM/ST strata getting past the 3-man line. Even Ozil said he needed to work with a 4-1-4-1 because the original tactic was vulnerable to 3 and 4 man attacks.

The idea is that the HB would drop between the two CBs for defense, and that the Libero would step up to be the equivalent of the DLP in the middle for attack. If I have a Libero (and sometimes HB) playing that role, I don't need a DLPd as the CM, he can step up and roam and make something happen further up the pitch.

I was also wondering if having the lone guy up front be a shadow striker, false-nine, or something else makes the most sense (complete forward? deep-lying forward)? Does it matter much or just go with the best fit for my players?

I went with shadow striker because Klaassen and Barkley are both great in that role, but I could make something else work if it would make more sense.

[craigd84]

I prefer Libero Support a bit more solid.

 

Klaasen is immense on this game scores quite a lot.

[shaneomac]

Have you tried anything like this in FM17?

[BMNJohn]

On 31/07/2017 at 08:53, craigd84 said:

To be fair he is using a VERY similar tactic to me and that defence with the dm works superbly well though i would change the HB to a BWM.

Well I personally have a bias (to put it lightly) against BWM as they tend to be huge card collectors, but more importantly they're just not holding midfielders at all as they aggressively chase every ball. As a solo DM if said DM isn't technically that good, I much prefer a Anchor Man or a DM(D). No fluff, no bells nor whistles, just get the ball without sacrificing positioning and offer an option to recycle. Well not that much anymore for the DM(D) as they have "Close Down More" hard-coded nowadays.

Edited August 1, 2017 by BMNJohn

[botulum]

Hello O-zil,

Based on your tactic, Conte's Chelsea and Allegri's Juventus i came up with this:

Many times using your tactic i have been exposed on the wings, my wingers did not covered very well, leaving large gaps for opposition winger to move into. So main idea is that wing backs offer necessary width in order to make the pitch as big as possible when we have the ball, when the opposition has the ball, they dropping deeper than wingers so flanks are covered.

As you can see there is no original number 4, but ball playing defender is set up as a stopper, ideally coming up playing the "Beckenbauer" role. In my Ajax team, Konijnenburg is, in my opinion, very skilful and intelligent playmaking defender, so just like David Luiz in Chelsea, Leonardo Bonucci (previously) at Juve and mentioned Beckenbauer can be a playmaking defender. 

In this tactic the right winger (Karami) is playing as advanced playmaker, for two reasons. First of all he is dropping inside becoming number six when we have ball, ideally taking the fullback with him to the middle, leaving massive gap on the wing for wing back, and secondly because I don't have an advanced midfielder :).

Second winger (Prados) is playing the "Mandzukić" role, his task is to come inside as second striker from the wing, also making space for wingback. The striker is playing as complete forward with move into channels and hold up ball instruction, so ideally he will be making space for the winger by dropping deep and also sometimes playing as number six when advanced playmaker won't make his move in time, just like Diego Costa who was dropping deep playing as number 6 in Conte's Chelsea.

Two central midfielders, one set as defensive will be covering space left by ball playing defender, just like Kante/Matić or Khedira. Second, more skilful offensively will be playing the Fabregas or Pjanić role, he will be part of the diamond, but being more offensive gifted, he could be be also a deep lying playmaker, when BPD won't make in time to step up from defensive line.

And finally, two central defenders on cover duty. Their role will be just to cover the space behind our dutch "Beckenbauer" in case he looses the ball (similar to Beckenbauer-Schwarzenbeck partnership but with one extra defender).

One more advantage i see with this set up is that wingers are playing higher so they will press earlier and higher, without being concern of leaving the space behind them.

So in theory, the offensive movement would work like this:

"Beckenbauer" will be pivot of the moving diamond, dropping deep between two central defenders if necessary and then coming in front of them creating second diamond.

I also considered inverted wing back and one of the midfielder in this case would be deep lying playmaker so the diamond will be created without any central defenders (Guardiola tried this at Bayern when Lahm was moving inside and in Man City with Fernandinho as right back).

I haven't tested it yet, so probably it won't work as i intended, but i would like to know your opinion on this alteration.

Cheers mate

[craigd84]

On 8/1/2017 at 23:33, BMNJohn said:

Well I personally have a bias (to put it lightly) against BWM as they tend to be huge card collectors, but more importantly they're just not holding midfielders at all as they aggressively chase every ball. As a solo DM if said DM isn't technically that good, I much prefer a Anchor Man or a DM(D). No fluff, no bells nor whistles, just get the ball without sacrificing positioning and offer an option to recycle. Well not that much anymore for the DM(D) as they have "Close Down More" hard-coded nowadays.

I find my BWM dont get carded any more than my midfielders or strikers. I use a more play maker type of player in the role with switches flank and long range pass PPM's works like a charm.

[BMNJohn]

On 02/08/2017 at 18:05, botulum said:

Hello O-zil,

Based on your tactic, Conte's Chelsea and Allegri's Juventus i came up with this:

Many times using your tactic i have been exposed on the wings, my wingers did not covered very well, leaving large gaps for opposition winger to move into. So main idea is that wing backs offer necessary width in order to make the pitch as big as possible when we have the ball, when the opposition has the ball, they dropping deeper than wingers so flanks are covered.

As you can see there is no original number 4, but ball playing defender is set up as a stopper, ideally coming up playing the "Beckenbauer" role. In my Ajax team, Konijnenburg is, in my opinion, very skilful and intelligent playmaking defender, so just like David Luiz in Chelsea, Leonardo Bonucci (previously) at Juve and mentioned Beckenbauer can be a playmaking defender. 

In this tactic the right winger (Karami) is playing as advanced playmaker, for two reasons. First of all he is dropping inside becoming number six when we have ball, ideally taking the fullback with him to the middle, leaving massive gap on the wing for wing back, and secondly because I don't have an advanced midfielder :).

Second winger (Prados) is playing the "Mandzukić" role, his task is to come inside as second striker from the wing, also making space for wingback. The striker is playing as complete forward with move into channels and hold up ball instruction, so ideally he will be making space for the winger by dropping deep and also sometimes playing as number six when advanced playmaker won't make his move in time, just like Diego Costa who was dropping deep playing as number 6 in Conte's Chelsea.

Two central midfielders, one set as defensive will be covering space left by ball playing defender, just like Kante/Matić or Khedira. Second, more skilful offensively will be playing the Fabregas or Pjanić role, he will be part of the diamond, but being more offensive gifted, he could be be also a deep lying playmaker, when BPD won't make in time to step up from defensive line.

And finally, two central defenders on cover duty. Their role will be just to cover the space behind our dutch "Beckenbauer" in case he looses the ball (similar to Beckenbauer-Schwarzenbeck partnership but with one extra defender).

One more advantage i see with this set up is that wingers are playing higher so they will press earlier and higher, without being concern of leaving the space behind them.

So in theory, the offensive movement would work like this:

"Beckenbauer" will be pivot of the moving diamond, dropping deep between two central defenders if necessary and then coming in front of them creating second diamond.

I also considered inverted wing back and one of the midfielder in this case would be deep lying playmaker so the diamond will be created without any central defenders (Guardiola tried this at Bayern when Lahm was moving inside and in Man City with Fernandinho as right back).

I haven't tested it yet, so probably it won't work as i intended, but i would like to know your opinion on this alteration.

Cheers mate

That's very similar to Guardiola's Barcelona (which is inspired from Cruyff fairly obviously). You could consider a HB as your "Beckenbauer". That's pretty much how they're supposed to work. The issue in FM17 is that the CBs don't spread out when a HB is present if you're using players in the FB strata, but since you're using WBs, the role does work properly.

[Icetuga]

I am wondering why this topic don´t get a revival, after the release of the new CM roles Carrilero and Mezzalla.

 

This new roles seem custom made for this type of tactics, i am playing around with a Sassuolo save and a Cruyff formation like in the first post.

 

I started the save to create a good 3 at back tactic and started with formations like 3-4-3 and 3-5-2 which gave me decent results but i wasn´t happy with the football the team played, so i remembered Özils thread with this beatiful formation and decided to give it a go especially with the new roles available.

 

What can i say? I started exactly with the formation in the first post with a little bit different TI  (without pass into space but with pass shorter and works ball into box) to give possesion a bit more emphasis in the build up, and it was great fun to watch from the beginning and now i am hooked at this system to make it work and find alternative tweaks with the new ME!

 

Oh and for the CM Pos left and ride from the DLP(D), i am using the Carrilero role with play wider PI. Works like a charm and you can change it to Mezzala if the other team plays a narrow formation. Many options with this formation and lot of ways to set the opponents defense on fire with style!  

[BMNJohn]

5 hours ago, Icetuga said:

I am wondering why this topic don´t get a revival, after the release of the new CM roles Carrilero and Mezzalla.

 

This new roles seem custom made for this type of tactics, i am playing around with a Sassuolo save and a Cruyff formation like in the first post.

 

I started the save to create a good 3 at back tactic and started with formations like 3-4-3 and 3-5-2 which gave me decent results but i wasn´t happy with the football the team played, so i remembered Özils thread with this beatiful formation and decided to give it a go especially with the new roles available.

 

What can i say? I started exactly with the formation in the first post with a little bit different TI  (without pass into space but with pass shorter and works ball into box) to give possesion a bit more emphasis in the build up, and it was great fun to watch from the beginning and now i am hooked at this system to make it work and find alternative tweaks with the new ME!

 

Oh and for the CM Pos left and ride from the DLP(D), i am using the Carrilero role with play wider PI. Works like a charm and you can change it to Mezzala if the other team plays a narrow formation. Many options with this formation and lot of ways to set the opponents defense on fire with style!  

While I don't have FM18, Carrilero indeed makes the most sense as per the description of the role not only because they bring some width to the midfield, but also because they supposedly somewhat cover the wings in the defensive phase on counters, which is the weakest point of the 3-4-3 Diamond. Or at least offer some basic coverage until the wingers drop back (which they never completely do ). Do you find it to be the case in your matches?

EDIT: Another thing I want to ask is concerning the behaviour of the wing players. As according to SI Staff somewhere in the feedback thread, wing players with an Attack duty are coded to stay up in order to be used as outlets for counters while Support duties are more inclined to track back. Did you find it to be true in defensive phases?

Edited November 8, 2017 by BMNJohn

[Icetuga]

Yeah i am trying out some things but i really want a System like this working.

 

If the opponent have strong wingers and focus play on the attacking flanks the Formation struggles to defend this attacks even with a Carrilero, it is a bit sad because the Wingers track back but not completely and the Carrileros are better then a normal MC and give some sort of cover but not like it would be needed in the defensive end.

But i have to give it a bit more time and see how they perform when the Cohesion is perfect and experimenting different type of players for the role, because i would like the Carrilero to defend the flanks with a bit more determination  without ball.

 

But i already thinking about a set of tactics to cover for the different situations in the games.

To not get runned over by strong wingers i have a second version now where i push the 2 CM to the WB positions and give them the Inverted Wingback role, it works like i want because with ball they go up in the middle and help working the ball around and without ball they go and cover the flanks.

 

I will give a little time to blend in and polish some things and maybe i will come up with the set i use with this type of Football, first thing i need to do in the next transfer window find me the right players to make a Good WB while being a CM ;-)

[tajj7]

I am attempting to do this formation with Southampton, at the moment I am using the standard set up as I am still filling positions in my team to make the formation work.  I may tinker with it then, the Carrilero and Mezzala do look like potential options. I am also using these as the training regimes for the centre-mids. Though doesn't Mezzala have roam from position? which I am not sure is suitable for this set up. 

There are not a lot of 'complete' footballers out there at Southampton's reputation even with a healthy amount of funds at my disposal. I am working on Milinkovic-Savic as he seems very suited to this formation. He is not interested at the moment but is borderline and I did (after making him a top target and watching him a lot with the chief scout) manage to snag him in January in another save so I am hopeful.

Luckily we already have some very good all round players especially at the back in VVD, Hoedt, Hojberg, Ward-Prowse, Lemina and Stephens that are generally decent in most areas with the occasional weak spot that I am working on.  Plus there is a good level of work rate, stamina, determination, first touch and passing throughout the team. 

I have ironically raided Ajax, no surprise given their youth training schemes that they produce complete footballers.  De Ligt, Dolberg, Van de Beek and Ziyech have all been brought in. I have also signed Pione Sisto and Gustavo Scarpa to fill the wide areas. 

It's going to be tough as they have to learn this new formation plus adjust to the massive overhaul of players, the likes of Redmond, Austin, Romeu, Bertrand, Cedric, Long,  and Boufal have all been shipped out. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by tajj7

[Icetuga]

Well after a day of playing around to make this work i just gave up on the initial formation because i can´t make it work to defend the flanks, i couldn´t find a way to make it balanced enough to defend the wings and the AI will exploit it obviously and that cost me a lot of games where i was better in every aspect but couldn´t handle the occasional wide ball :-(

 

But my goal is to play that dominant and positive football from the Cruyffs, Bielsas and Sampaolis around and i am playing around with the formations to get this working.

 

I had 4-2-3-1 working very good but i don´t know how to explain i don´t like to use this formation because you see it so often, right now i have good feeling about a 4-3-3 with a RPM between two Carrileros, 2 FB(attack), 2 IF(support) and a F9 upfront.

 

The principles stay the same and it looks fantastic in the offense, in the defensive side it is a challenge because you will need skilled and fast CB. I managed to upgrade my squad with some fast CBs and it starts to perform well and the outcome of my games are much more consistent now.

With the defensive line pushed high up the team is very compact and with fast good defenders, it works good but now and then there is a pass behind the lines which give me a lot of headaches in some games.

Now i am playing around with the roles in the 3 CM positions and the defensive line to get my back 4 more protected without giving up the principles of the football i want my team to play, it is a challenge but i will get there somehow and all that without using a 4-2-3-1 which already worked well but i want something different formation wise  

Edited November 9, 2017 by Icetuga

[tajj7]

5 hours ago, Icetuga said:

Well after a day of playing around to make this work i just gave up on the initial formation because i can´t make it work to defend the flanks, i couldn´t find a way to make it balanced enough to defend the wings and the AI will exploit it obviously and that cost me a lot of games where i was better in every aspect but couldn´t handle the occasional wide ball :-(

 

Having similar problems. Though I have seen signs of the wingers tracking back. My main issue from the goals I am conceding seems to be more down to terrible marking, just none of my centre-backs are picking up players.

I've been done by the ball over the top several times, despite having a centre back in the right position but he just drifts away from the player and had similar from very deep crosses, little to no marking of players they should ve marking tightly,

Martial did destroy me though and I think the essentially 4 up top (3 in attacking mids plus one striker) does cancel this formation out hard. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by tajj7

[BMNJohn]

On 08/11/2017 at 14:28, Icetuga said:

Yeah i am trying out some things but i really want a System like this working.

 

If the opponent have strong wingers and focus play on the attacking flanks the Formation struggles to defend this attacks even with a Carrilero, it is a bit sad because the Wingers track back but not completely and the Carrileros are better then a normal MC and give some sort of cover but not like it would be needed in the defensive end.

But i have to give it a bit more time and see how they perform when the Cohesion is perfect and experimenting different type of players for the role, because i would like the Carrilero to defend the flanks with a bit more determination  without ball.

 

But i already thinking about a set of tactics to cover for the different situations in the games.

To not get runned over by strong wingers i have a second version now where i push the 2 CM to the WB positions and give them the Inverted Wingback role, it works like i want because with ball they go up in the middle and help working the ball around and without ball they go and cover the flanks.

 

I will give a little time to blend in and polish some things and maybe i will come up with the set i use with this type of Football, first thing i need to do in the next transfer window find me the right players to make a Good WB while being a CM ;-)

Thanks for the feedback. I eventually downloaded the demo, and after struggling to score with a 4-1-4-1 DM (and more accurately, struggling to find shooting positions despite having possession even within the opposition's penalty area), and after Zabaleta broke his leg in an international game I could've pulled him from, I gave the 3-4-3 Diamond a go. Quite honestly, I could never use it against a 4-2-3-1 Wide in FM17 at all, especially against fast wingers. So when this happened, especially against Liverpool, I was incredibly surprised. Quite a few sitters were missed too and the scoreline could've been more generous.  While not optimal defensively, the combined action of the IW on Support and the Carrilero were enough to block the wings, especially when the team is asked to Get Stuck In and really commit to the press. Too often I find that the each player presses on his own instead of pressing being a team/collective effort; certainly an area where FM can make a LOT of progress. I feel in this version of the ME that the players cut the trajectories of the opposition's passes better instead of running backwards.

That said, Sturridge went through the game like Ronaldo did that summer of 1998... As per usual the AI would've rather played him injured than playing someone else. He didn't finish the game either, actually he left the field on a stretcher.

 

How I set it up:

Edited November 10, 2017 by BMNJohn

[tajj7]

So changes from the original formation I have gone for are switching to control, having OI instructions of tighter marking and always closing down for all players, I have switched the complete forward to a false 9 as this seems to make the link up with the AM work better.

I have also gone for an offside trap and switched out the cover as it wasn't working. 

[BMNJohn]

19 hours ago, tajj7 said:

So changes from the original formation I have gone for are switching to control, having OI instructions of tighter marking and always closing down for all players, I have switched the complete forward to a false 9 as this seems to make the link up with the AM work better.

I have also gone for an offside trap and switched out the cover as it wasn't working. 

Quite honestly, after experimenting more with it, it's "almost" easier to attack and defend with a 5-4-1 Diamond WB than with a 3-4-3 Diamond. More than defending (which is an issue), my biggest gripe with the 3-4-3 Diamond in FM is attacking. With rather "average" to "good" players, the team is so high up the pitch that the three attacking players (the ST and the wingers) end up on the same line as the opposition's defence. Therefore, there are much fewer runs from them. Also, the CMs and the AMC often end up with the ball in such situations, and since the team is really high up the pitch they also don't make that many runs. In short, they often try long shots due to the lack of movement, which is very frustrating because sometimes there's an option to play a through ball between the defenders, but the midfielders won't consider it. When you use world-class players (or players sufficiently above the league's average), they don't shy away from trying such passes, which can make this tactic lethal. It also works if you're countering: the space offered is mercilessly exploited by your players, with multiple runs and a lot of flair.

If you switch the wingers to a Support duty, they become more timid with their runs and don't offer as much support. If I ask the CMs to be more aggressive... well you better not lose the ball, and generally committing more bodies to an already stacked defence with a top heavy formation isn't really helping. Back then (FM15/16/17), using Wide Midfielders with the instruction to Dribble More helped somewhat with that, bringing more variety in the way they pass and move with the ball. Of course, teaching a multitude of players to Play One-Twos helps somewhat with adding fluidity to the setup. I really struggled a lot to create the space and the runs to prevent players from taking stupid long shots and consider passing the ball around when you have lots of possession. I get to see the ball a lot and play really deep into the opposition's half/last third, but  I have tried a lot of the relevant instructions, but I struggle to actually create movements. That, or I haven't found a way to get on the pitch and smack my players in the back of their heads for them to consider some passes that seem worth trying when watching from the touchline.

Here's an illustration: the possession movement fails when the CM stays too long on the ball. This situation ends up in a goal for my side anyway because when we get the ball back, we're able to instantly counter-attack and suddenly, there's a lot of space to exploit.

Meanwhile, when using a 5-4-1 Diamond WB, here are my findings. One, Complete Wing Backs are absurdly aggressive players. Two, since they're WBs, they attack from a lot deeper. They see and make runs that WMs roles don't seem to consider. The flip side of that is that CBWs on Attack duty spends a lot of time very, very wide, requiring players who can actually exploit crosses. The second matter is that while it's easier to defend the wings, it's not actually easier to defend deep in general: you have a line of five players behind a diamond, which doesn't offer good pitch coverage at all and allow for overlapping runs on the wings shall the opposition play with aggressive wingers and FBs/WBs. I'm not too much of a fan of CBWs due to how they excessively hug the touchline and the byline, staying really, really wide all the time. I'm not to fond of Wingers (the role) for that reason either and usually prefer Wide Midfielders (the role, yet again) instead. However, WMs have slightly lower mentality and don't usually make aggressive runs off the ball either.

Of course, there's no such thing as a formation that can cover the pitch perfectly with eleven players anyway, so you have to compromise. I'll have to watch some Barcelona 90's football to see better how to organize the attack. Like this video for example.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by BMNJohn

[tajj7]

4 hours ago, BMNJohn said:

Quite honestly, after experimenting more with it, it's "almost" easier to attack and defend with a 5-4-1 Diamond WB than with a 3-4-3 Diamond. More than defending (which is an issue), my biggest gripe with the 3-4-3 Diamond in FM is attacking. With rather "average" to "good" players, the team is so high up the pitch that the three attacking players (the ST and the wingers) end up on the same line as the opposition's defence. Therefore, there are much fewer runs from them. Also, the CMs and the AMC often end up with the ball in such situations, and since the team is really high up the pitch they also don't make that many runs. In short, they often try long shots due to the lack of movement, which is very frustrating because sometimes there's an option to play a through ball between the defenders, but the midfielders won't consider it. When you use world-class players (or players sufficiently above the league's average), they don't shy away from trying such passes, which can make this tactic lethal. It also works if you're countering: the space offered is mercilessly exploited by your players, with multiple runs and a lot of flair.

If you switch the wingers to a Support duty, they become more timid with their runs and don't offer as much support. If I ask the CMs to be more aggressive... well you better not lose the ball, and generally committing more bodies to an already stacked defence with a top heavy formation isn't really helping. Back then (FM15/16/17), using Wide Midfielders with the instruction to Dribble More helped somewhat with that, bringing more variety in the way they pass and move with the ball. Of course, teaching a multitude of players to Play One-Twos helps somewhat with adding fluidity to the setup. I really struggled a lot to create the space and the runs to prevent players from taking stupid long shots and consider passing the ball around when you have lots of possession. I get to see the ball a lot and play really deep into the opposition's half/last third, but  I have tried a lot of the relevant instructions, but I struggle to actually create movements. That, or I haven't found a way to get on the pitch and smack my players in the back of their heads for them to consider some passes that seem worth trying when watching from the touchline.

Here's an illustration: the possession movement fails when the CM stays too long on the ball. This situation ends up in a goal for my side anyway because when we get the ball back, we're able to instantly counter-attack and suddenly, there's a lot of space to exploit.

Meanwhile, when using a 5-4-1 Diamond WB, here are my findings. One, Complete Wing Backs are absurdly aggressive players. Two, since they're WBs, they attack from a lot deeper. They see and make runs that WMs roles don't seem to consider. The flip side of that is that CBWs on Attack duty spends a lot of time very, very wide, requiring players who can actually exploit crosses. The second matter is that while it's easier to defend the wings, it's not actually easier to defend deep in general: you have a line of five players behind a diamond, which doesn't offer good pitch coverage at all and allow for overlapping runs on the wings shall the opposition play with aggressive wingers and FBs/WBs. I'm not too much of a fan of CBWs due to how they excessively hug the touchline and the byline, staying really, really wide all the time. I'm not to fond of Wingers (the role) for that reason either and usually prefer Wide Midfielders (the role, yet again) instead. However, WMs have slightly lower mentality and don't usually make aggressive runs off the ball either.

Of course, there's no such thing as a formation that can cover the pitch perfectly with eleven players anyway, so you have to compromise. I'll have to watch some Barcelona 90's football to see better how to organize the attack. Like this video for example.

 

I am actually having no trouble attacking wise, some of our attacking play is breathtaking. 

I'm currently second top scorers in the Premier League with Southampton and the wingers are actually working out well. Only Liverpool have scored more (and in part because they put 6 past me, more in that in a second) and they also have world class forwards in Mane, Firminho, Coutinho and Salah, I've won the league first season in another save with that forward line, I just don't have players of that calibre.

Just look -

Dolberg is a flase 9, Ziyech is an AM-A and the Sisto and Scarpa are the standard Winger-A.  

I mean Dolberg and Ziyech are good players, but they are not yet on the level of top players like Kane, Mane, Coutinho etc. they have 14 and 11 finishing respectively yet are banging in the goals because of the quality of our attacking play. 

Basically anyone who is about my level or is worst I actually generally beat and play of the park wtih this formation, but the better sides especially ones with quality fast players in the AMR and AML slots, so the likes of Martial (over rated in this game IMO), Mane, Coutinho, Hazard, Sane etc. they destroy me, especially away from home.  All these sides have played the 4-2-3-1 formation and it has produced results like this -

In 9 games against Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal I have won 2, drawn 1, lost 6. Scored 20 and conceded 34. 

I have conceded a horrendous 43 goals in the league in 28 games so far. That is 6th worst. 

26 of those have come from just 6 league games against those bigger teams. But pretty much in all those games we were competing and creating almost as many chances as they had, we just did not score them in most of the games as I have worst players. 

There are also a few caveats in there, like the Man City game away I lost 5-0, 4 of those goals were from set pieces.  Several goals in those games were annoying long hoof balls from the back that my defence should easily deal with but for some reason do not (which seems to be an issue with other people and might be a ME issue) and my 3 centre-backs are hardly world class and have been playing pretty poorly, plus seem to have little connection as well. The partnerships link on my tactic screen is orange. 

I also have a squad with an average age of 23, have sold 12 first team squad members and brought in 13 players (excluding free tranfer tutor guys) so that will all have an impact.

Overall the tactic with a few tweaks works quite well, certainly against equal or lesser teams. Of my 6 defeats so far this season, 4 have been away to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd, even top teams could lose those games. The other two were annoying away losses to Newcastle and West Brom were most of the goals were annoying long balls from the back that Sunday League teams could deal with and as I said above I think an issue in the ME.  Against good teams that don't play that 4-2-3-1, we do well against them, like Spurs who play wingbacks and two tucked in Kane I have beaten once and drawn (where I was the better team).

I just need to come up with an alternative tactic that challenges better away from home against bigger teams. Likely to be a 4-1-4-1, but because I committed to this formation fully I have no fullbacks! So this might not get properly sorted until the summer, where I will look for some fullbacks who can also be trained to play as the wingers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BMNJohn]

1 hour ago, tajj7 said:

I am actually having no trouble attacking wise, some of our attacking play is breathtaking. 

I'm currently second top scorers in the Premier League with Southampton and the wingers are actually working out well. Only Liverpool have scored more (and in part because they put 6 past me, more in that in a second) and they also have world class forwards in Mane, Firminho, Coutinho and Salah, I've won the league first season in another save with that forward line, I just don't have players of that calibre.

Just look -

Dolberg is a flase 9, Ziyech is an AM-A and the Sisto and Scarpa are the standard Winger-A.  

I mean Dolberg and Ziyech are good players, but they are not yet on the level of top players like Kane, Mane, Coutinho etc. they have 14 and 11 finishing respectively yet are banging in the goals because of the quality of our attacking play. 

Basically anyone who is about my level or is worst I actually generally beat and play of the park wtih this formation, but the better sides especially ones with quality fast players in the AMR and AML slots, so the likes of Martial (over rated in this game IMO), Mane, Coutinho, Hazard, Sane etc. they destroy me, especially away from home.  All these sides have played the 4-2-3-1 formation and it has produced results like this -

In 9 games against Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal I have won 2, drawn 1, lost 6. Scored 20 and conceded 34. 

I have conceded a horrendous 43 goals in the league in 28 games so far. That is 6th worst. 

26 of those have come from just 6 league games against those bigger teams. But pretty much in all those games we were competing and creating almost as many chances as they had, we just did not score them in most of the games as I have worst players. 

There are also a few caveats in there, like the Man City game away I lost 5-0, 4 of those goals were from set pieces.  Several goals in those games were annoying long hoof balls from the back that my defence should easily deal with but for some reason do not (which seems to be an issue with other people and might be a ME issue) and my 3 centre-backs are hardly world class and have been playing pretty poorly, plus seem to have little connection as well. The partnerships link on my tactic screen is orange. 

I also have a squad with an average age of 23, have sold 12 first team squad members and brought in 13 players (excluding free tranfer tutor guys) so that will all have an impact.

Overall the tactic with a few tweaks works quite well, certainly against equal or lesser teams. Of my 6 defeats so far this season, 4 have been away to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd, even top teams could lose those games. The other two were annoying away losses to Newcastle and West Brom were most of the goals were annoying long balls from the back that Sunday League teams could deal with and as I said above I think an issue in the ME.  Against good teams that don't play that 4-2-3-1, we do well against them, like Spurs who play wingbacks and two tucked in Kane I have beaten once and drawn (where I was the better team).

I just need to come up with an alternative tactic that challenges better away from home against bigger teams. Likely to be a 4-1-4-1, but because I committed to this formation fully I have no fullbacks! So this might not get properly sorted until the summer, where I will look for some fullbacks who can also be trained to play as the wingers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As according to SI staff (too lazy to find the exact post), in FM18 players in the wide midfielder strata will only drop back to defend if they have a Support duty. If they have an Attack duty, they will stay up to be available to counter. So basically it's impossible to defend the wings with a lone WM on Attack duty, just like it's the case when you use the AML/AMR strata. If you want to use the WM strata you have to use a Support or Defend duty; if you want to use an Attack duty, you have to use wingbacks instead. Which fairly obviously confirms what I've experimented when comparing the WM(S) role and the CWB(A) role in the way they behave and in the way the team behaves. Well there's another difference: with WM(S) I'd rather use Carrileros or CM(S) while CWB(A) allows the use of Mezzala on Support duty.

Edited November 11, 2017 by BMNJohn

[dojoneil]

On 9 November 2017 at 22:27, tajj7 said:

Having similar problems. Though I have seen signs of the wingers tracking back. My main issue from the goals I am conceding seems to be more down to terrible marking, just none of my centre-backs are picking up players.

I've been done by the ball over the top several times, despite having a centre back in the right position but he just drifts away from the player and had similar from very deep crosses, little to no marking of players they should ve marking tightly,

 

On 9 November 2017 at 16:44, Icetuga said:

Well after a day of playing around to make this work i just gave up on the initial formation because i can´t make it work to defend the flanks, i couldn´t find a way to make it balanced enough to defend the wings and the AI will exploit it obviously and that cost me a lot of games where i was better in every aspect but couldn´t handle the occasional wide ball :-(

Having played (and experimented with) this system for a good few seasons, I'd suggest that your problems may not be down to the tactics, but more that you're asking the players to do more than they're capable of. Any system has strengths and weaknesses, and the main weakness with this system is that because you commit your only wide players high up the pitch, it can  - as you've found - be vulnerable on the counter. Obviously you can drop your wide players deeper, but then you lose much of their attacking contribution. The only way I was able to solve this was by improving my squad and finding CB's who were capable of coping without full-back cover.

When choosing CB's for this system, especially the outside CB's, I'm primarily looking for players who can cover large areas of the pitch by being in the right place at the right time. I first look for high Anticipation and Positioning, then Concentration, Decisions and Acceleration. If the player has high numbers in these five attributes, then I know that they'll be able to get to a long pass out wide before the opposition winger does 80-90% of the time. When I play backups and youngsters who aren't quite suited/ready for this role, then I see that vulnerability re-appear.

In addition, I do tweak the system when playing against really good sides, generally by dropping the mentality from Standard to Counter, and the D-Line from Much Higher to Slightly Deeper. I also set my wingers to man-marking duties if the oppo are players with wingers. While this doesn't mitigate against counters, it does encourage them to track back further and create a proper back-5 when out of possession.

[tajj7]

16 hours ago, dojoneil said:

 

Having played (and experimented with) this system for a good few seasons, I'd suggest that your problems may not be down to the tactics, but more that you're asking the players to do more than they're capable of. Any system has strengths and weaknesses, and the main weakness with this system is that because you commit your only wide players high up the pitch, it can  - as you've found - be vulnerable on the counter. Obviously you can drop your wide players deeper, but then you lose much of their attacking contribution. The only way I was able to solve this was by improving my squad and finding CB's who were capable of coping without full-back cover.

When choosing CB's for this system, especially the outside CB's, I'm primarily looking for players who can cover large areas of the pitch by being in the right place at the right time. I first look for high Anticipation and Positioning, then Concentration, Decisions and Acceleration. If the player has high numbers in these five attributes, then I know that they'll be able to get to a long pass out wide before the opposition winger does 80-90% of the time. When I play backups and youngsters who aren't quite suited/ready for this role, then I see that vulnerability re-appear.

In addition, I do tweak the system when playing against really good sides, generally by dropping the mentality from Standard to Counter, and the D-Line from Much Higher to Slightly Deeper. I also set my wingers to man-marking duties if the oppo are players with wingers. While this doesn't mitigate against counters, it does encourage them to track back further and create a proper back-5 when out of possession.

 

You are probably correct and my centre-backs are not perfect but it is of course difficult to find these players on smaller budgets, I think once I am more established and can find some good prospects to mould I might re-visit the tactic. I am still training it in my save but I used it less, at the moment I am at the stage where my team is very good but I cannot take it to the next level without basically spending £70 - 100 million per position or finding a high PA regen for the position so this takes time.

 

 

[Coolio5]

Has anyone amended this tactic for FM18? If so how? thanks!

[Luk's95]

Il 19/12/2017 in 14:37 , Coolio5 ha scritto:

Has anyone amended this tactic for FM18? If so how? thanks!

Agreed. I'm curious because I loved this tactic so much! 

[goqs06]

 

A month ago I requested he do a new tactic for FM18, but he told me he wasn’t free... 😭

Edited December 27, 2017 by goqs06

[BMNJohn]

On 19/12/2017 at 14:37, Coolio5 said:

Has anyone amended this tactic for FM18? If so how? thanks!

 

On 25/12/2017 at 16:58, Luk's95 said:

Agreed. I'm curious because I loved this tactic so much! 

Amended well no since I had decided against purchasing FM18. However, I still fairly extensively played the demo quite a few times. I've already posted some of my findings earlier on; some things have changed and others have remained, but they are consistent with things I had already noticed in FM17 despite the changes in the ME. It's pretty much my own spin on it basically, so might as well discuss your findings too.  The formation and roles were these, and the DLP(D) was in the DM strata.

For a long, long time I had struggled to make this formation dangerous offensively. Often I'd have massive possession but then either a lot of long shots or dozens of shots on target. In both cases, I'd have very few goals compared to the absurd toothless domination I would have during matches. So since I was stuck, I figured I'd watch a video on how Barcelona used to shape their attacks and what I could to replicate that. So here's a video that I already posted in this page, excuse me for the lack of originality.

First, here's a good reminder on Team Shape and Mentality. I figured out I needed to bring more separation between players in order to create a bit more space, so I ditched Very Fluid in favour of a Fluid mentality. Fluid makes the WM(A) a bit more attacking in their runs; it's not much, it's just a very slight change in mentality. It also focuses the CBs to focus a bit more on their defensive duties, and if you want them to bring the ball out of defence (which is very effective because of FM's complete lack of defensive participation from strikers and AML/R stratas) you can either ask them to Dribble More (PI available for BPDs), use the new Bring Ball Out Of Defence PPM or find a tutor with Tries To Play Way Out Of Trouble.

The Offensive Four:

Coming onto the changes in roles, well there's the obvious changes in the offensive quartet. I prefer WM(A)s to Wingers or other roles due to their much more balanced behaviour. In FM, good Dribblers tend to dribble regardless of their instructions, role or duty. For example, I had CD(D)s dribble quite a bit already in previous versions despite their role that shouldn't allow them to. As such, good dribblers with the WM(A) role still tend to dribble but will consider passing more often and are more available offensively in the last third since they don't necessarily Stay Wider like wingers do. Also, despite the higher Mentality from the less fluid Team Shape, they don't defend that much less than on Very Fluid.

I also axed the AM(A) for an AP(A): I wanted the polarizing figure of the playmaker, which in FM always attracts a lot of balls. Even with an Attack duty, the AP(A) still comes deep to get the ball and passes it around, but won't shy from dribbling if he has the space to and will be available as a second option around and inside the box. You have to watch him because he well see the ball a lot and can be marked out of the game pretty easily. You could wonder why I do not use the Enganche, who theoretically fits the bill and the description of what this AMC is supposed to be: a player who receives the ball and lays it to other very quickly. Well the Enganche in FM is also a very static player who does not dribble nor try to play his way out of trouble, he's not much more useful to the attack than the AP(A) and he barely participates defensively (still more than the Treq or the Poacher, but who cares about these guys). In other words, to me the Enganche is inferior in about every aspect to the AP(A).  The eagerness of the AP(A) to dribble instead of doing quick passes can be annoying, but I'd take that over the FM representation of the Enganche any day of the week. Despite how slow he was, I don't recall Riquelme being unable to play himself out of trouble after all.

Then comes the CF(A). The change in duty was pretty easy: I needed to create a bit more space, so having the CF(A) higher up, making runs around and between the defenders was more useful than having him drop deeper in an already very stacked midfield. Much like the AP(A), despite his Attack duty he won't necessarily drive head on and still will play for the team instead of living by and for the goal like say, a Poacher. Also, I had an issue with CF(S) more often than not trying helpless long distance shots instead of trying to dribble through openings; it's something FM is terrible at but it was even more prevalent with the Support duty.

The Three Men Midfield:

Now comes the three men midfield. I wanted a couple of hard working midfielders able to participate in offence and defence, so the BBM was an obvious choice. Now, the BBM doesn't roam all over the pitch like their PI could suggest: they roam up and down almost exclusively. Also, since they don't dribble nor move around like the RPM or MEZ, you're not going to find them on the wings or similar. I was hesitant at first to try them, but I considered it more after reading the description of the Carrilero, who are described as moving side to side as opposed to the BBM that moves back and forth. The Carrilero is still an useful option to try, but they're very timid midfielders who don't do much in terms of movement, so watch them and watch after them if you choose this role instead. The DLP(D) in the DM strata was something I already had in place in FM17. I simply find that the DLP(D) protects the defence better when in the DM strata than it does when in the CM strata. Even if their average positioning in either strata is very similar, I find that CMs tend to see a lot of balls getting immediately behind their backs, between them and the CBs. I also tried the HB a bit: to me the HB recycles possession better than the DLP(D), but doesn't protect the defence as well. Just my experience.

The Defensive Four:

Then comes the BPDs and the keeper. There's not much to say about them, I have them as BPDs because I can and because I trust them on the ball. I dislike the Cover duty for the central CD. You'd think that they'd stay slightly back to cover for long balls, but actually they'll try to fetch and "sweep" any long ball, even if that means colliding with your holding midfielder. In such a top heavy formation it can happen often, leading to huge gaps between the remaining two CBs. I hence favour the more balanced Defend duty for the central CD. For the wide CDs, I often hesitate between the Defend and Stopper for the duties depending of how aggressive I want them to be: the Defend duty offers better protection against pacey roaming strikers as they'll just play the offside trap better even without using the TI. The keeper can have any role or duty to be honest, but it's absurdly critical to Distribute To Centre Backs unless you have Peter Crouch up front. FM keeps hoofing the ball to helpless wingers, playmakers and strikers no matter what their stature is or how good in the air they are, and it's absurdly infuriating.  I just needed the GKs to cut on that nonsense thank you very much.

Team Instructions and general setup:

My memories on the TI setup is a bit hazy, but I remember things I didn't like so here we go. In a general way, I tend to tweak TIs depending of what I see on the pitch and don't use too many of them unless required. I usually play on Standard team mentality and tweak from there depending on the scenario of the match, but I much prefer using the hair-dryer method than tweak the mentality if I find that my players underperform.  Players in the FM verse react a whole lot better when you criticize them than they allegedly do in real life. If they played terribly, you should criticize them either way, no matter what the opposition: team talks are contextual. If your mid-table players conceded stupid goals against a top flight team or got destroyed, they'll generally react better if you tell them that it was unacceptable than if you tell them they're unlucky Of course you'll have the one-off idiot who will take an issue with the team talk; at least it makes it very easy to see who's gonna take the highway during the next transfer window... Anyway, I usually Close Down More or Much More, use a Higher defensive line or standard as I find that Much Higher lines tend to be susceptible to hoofs. I don't usually Play Out Of Defence as asking the GK not to hoof helps; also, if you're using a DLP(D) you have a playmaker that your defenders will seek and hence limit their incentive to hoof. It also helps with how quick they pass the ball around instead of keeping it and dwelling on it because you told them not to hoof.  I enjoy Playing Wider to force my players to use the available space and target free players; I usually don't play as wide as possible unless I really want to stretch out the opposition since it tends to make defending harder, and I don't exploit the flanks. I also tend to Play Ball Into Box unless I want to play really quickly. After that, it's pretty much contextual and depends of what you see.

A Variant:

The variant on this for teams who defend very deep and don't allow for much space is to switch the 3-4-3 Diamond for a 5-4-1 Diamond, using IWB(S)s instead of WM(A)s and MEZ(A) instead of BBMs. Mezzalas are great at making defences implode from within (that was redundant). I would prefer if IWBs had the same behaviour as they had in FM17: now they act like Lahm only if there's a winger/wingback before them, but if they're alone of the wing they won't vacate their initial position as much. We can't have too many nice things apparently. Oh well, it's not like the MEZ is the next role to be nerf- ahem, tweaked to further represent the reality of modern football©.

What do you mean I'm tempting fate?

Of course, your mileage may vary. Keep in mind that I do not possess FM18 too.

Edited December 27, 2017 by BMNJohn

[Joey Numbaz]

Thanks for getting this back to something functional. I just gave up when I tried @BMNJohn

I so desperately want something like your tactic to work, but with a Libero on Attack. I mean that's one of the signatures of Totaalvoetball, right?!

Do you think moving the BPD-D to a LIB-A would unbalance it too much? Thought on the ripple effects?

Maybe go Cover-Libero-Cover? Or Cover-Libero-Stopper or Stopper-Libero-Cover depending on the opponent?

But then how would a DLP-D DM work with a Libero-Attack? So maybe the Carrileros with the Halfback variation would work better there?

Coming up with something like this with an attacking Libero is kind of a Holy Grail for me ...

Edited January 16, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[BMNJohn]

3 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

Thanks for getting this back to something functional. I just gave up when I tried @BMNJohn

I so desperately want something like your tactic to work, but with a Libero on Attack. I mean that's one of the signatures of Totaalvoetball, right?!

Do you think moving the BPD-D to a LIB-A would unbalance it too much? Thought on the ripple effects?

Maybe go Cover-Libero-Cover? Or Cover-Libero-Stopper or Stopper-Libero-Cover depending on the opponent?

But then how would a DLP-D DM work with a Libero-Attack? So maybe the Carrileros with the Halfback variation would work better there?

Coming up with something like this with an attacking Libero is kind of a Holy Grail for me ...

If I've learned anything I've watched from the original FM version of this tactic or the real life version of it, it is that this tactic was not designed around the use of an attacking libero at all. Which makes sense: the libero effectively died in his classic form with the offside rule change in 1990 and was buried with the 1992 back-pass rule. You could argue that this Barcelona side still used a Sweeper however (still better than the Cover duty!). Moreover, the use of a deep CM/DM in charge of recycling possession from deep makes the use of an attacking Libero completely redundant, especially in a top heavy formation like this.

The FM side of this is that the Libero doesn't work all that well in recent FMs. On Support duty, the Libero is just a fancy Ball-Playing Defender who screws the offside line, so there's no point using it. On Attack duty, if you put a player in the DM strata the Libero doesn't go up the pitch at all. If you remove the DM and he does get forward, he immediately go back as your team loses possession. On the top of that, the Libero doesn't seem to have the playmaker bias, so his teammates will not seek him. Basically, most of the time you're just watching one guy running forward when your team has the ball and then running back when possession is lost, accomplishing absolutely nothing at all aside from tiring himself and screwing the defence in the process by leaving holes everywhere. Also, by forfeiting both a DM and a central defender, you destroy the stability of the team in a setup that's already not too great defensively even in its vanilla form.

That said, if I wanted a deep player to be the creative outlet for the team, make surges forward and leave defensive holes everywhere but without destroying the offside trap, I know what I would use: a Regista. Which is essentially Juve's setup from when Pirlo was at the club: a strong three man defence, wingbacks to bring width, two hard working CMs who compensate for Pirlo's inability to defend and two strikers with a creator/scorer partnership. Then, play possession/position based football instead of the more defensive approach Juve used. At least when compared to the Libero (A), the Regista's teammates will try to give him the ball. You also somewhat keep the three man midfield Cruyff wanted.

A side note to this and which was mentioned by Ö-zil IIRC: here, "Total Football" does not mean roaming. That version of total football used by the 1974 Dutch squad at the World Cup was defeated by the much more disciplined West Germany. Here, "total football" means having versatile players who can play and fill various positions and roles. Defenders who can actually play a pass, strikers who can create and press, wingers which huge activity able to defend and be available to score... This vision of Total Football is based around the now famous "Juego de Posición".

That said, you're perfectly free and welcome to experiment with it. Just report back your findings.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BMNJohn
Trying to cut the fat out of the post.

[Joey Numbaz]

Thanks!

Interesting about the DM keeping the Libero from going forward, I didn't realize that.

I know, I know, but it's just too great an idea (in my own romanticized head) to get an attacking libero working somehow. I'm going to figure it out at some point. I guess I could try to use him as a more defensive DLP-D. I know you said you haven't bought FM18 yet, but each year the libero seems to be getting more and more fixed. But I do agree, he needs the playmaker box as an optional toggle switch if they aren't going to make it automatic. I want him dribbling the ball up through the middle!

I do understand that things don't need to be as fluid as has become legend. And they lost one game to West Germany, it was a still a great thing to watch! Somehow as a community we need to get this to work. I think your tactic definitely moves this goal closer. I don't know when I'll get a chance to mess around with it, but I will try and report back eventually.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

OK, so I just did it your way, no Libero. First League Cup game, I am home as Everton against Bournemouth, don't really care if I win.

Started three kids on the back line including 16 year old Lewis Gibson. Started kids like Vlasic and Lookman on the wings. Played Joel in Goal.

We completely dominated the game. Did not even practice it for a single day. Changed the tactic right before the game.

Holy cow was this attacking. We outshot them 22-8, 7 clear cut chances and 2 half chances, to 2/1 for them. They completed 2 of 37 crosses.

They played a flat 4-4-2, their MCR had a really good game despite being shut out, 8.0 rating. Their LW also had a 7.2 so that might be a sign of some weakness somewhere.

Thanks!

EDIT - I realize I never posted the score, we won 3-0.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[BMNJohn]

On 17/01/2018 at 01:41, Joey Numbaz said:

Thanks!

Interesting about the DM keeping the Libero from going forward, I didn't realize that.

I know, I know, but it's just too great an idea (in my own romanticized head) to get an attacking libero working somehow. I'm going to figure it out at some point. I guess I could try to use him as a more defensive DLP-D. I know you said you haven't bought FM18 yet, but each year the libero seems to be getting more and more fixed. But I do agree, he needs the playmaker box as an optional toggle switch if they aren't going to make it automatic. I want him dribbling the ball up through the middle!

I do understand that things don't need to be as fluid as has become legend. And they lost one game to West Germany, it was a still a great thing to watch! Somehow as a community we need to get this to work. I think your tactic definitely moves this goal closer. I don't know when I'll get a chance to mess around with it, but I will try and report back eventually.

I just meant that this was a different concept of Total Football, so we have to be careful when we mention the term that we understand what it means. Anyway, with the current tactics creator it is not really possible to actually have a fluid free roaming system in FM.

22 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

OK, so I just did it your way, no Libero. First League Cup game, I am home as Everton against Bournemouth, don't really care if I win.

Started three kids on the back line including 16 year old Lewis Gibson. Started kids like Vlasic and Lookman on the wings. Played Joel in Goal.

We completely dominated the game. Did not even practice it for a single day. Changed the tactic right before the game.

Holy cow was this attacking. We outshot them 22-8, 7 clear cut chances and 2 half chances, to 2/1 for them. They completed 2 of 37 crosses.

They played a flat 4-4-2, their MCR had a really good game despite being shut out, 8.0 rating. Their LW also had a 7.2 so that might be a sign of some weakness somewhere.

Thanks!

EDIT - I realize I never posted the score, we won 3-0.

Be careful, this tactic, as mentioned by Ö-zil to whom I still give the full credits for this particularly works well against 4-4-2 (without AML/R) and its variants: 4-4-1-1, 4-2-2-2 DM, etc. Which means that against such systems the results can be deceiving. However it's rather weak against other top heavy systems, and especially 4-1-2-3 and 4-2-3-1, especially the way they work in FM (which is linked to my previous comment about the tactics creator). And these systems are ubiquitous in FM.

[Joey Numbaz]

Thanks!

Great timing for your last comment!

58 minutes ago, BMNJohn said:

Be careful, this tactic, as mentioned by Ö-zil to whom I still give the full credits for this particularly works well against 4-4-2 (without AML/R) and its variants: 4-4-1-1, 4-2-2-2 DM, etc. Which means that against such systems the results can be deceiving. However it's rather weak against other top heavy systems, and especially 4-1-2-3 and 4-2-3-1, especially the way they work in FM (which is linked to my previous comment about the tactics creator). And these systems are ubiquitous in FM.

So I decided to go back and replay the game before the Bournemouth game, where I played Chelsea with a tired lineup coming off my first Europa Group game. I specifically wanted too see how it played against them.  They play a unique 3-2-2-2-1 with wingbacks, CMs, attacking wingers.

First time out, I tied them 1-1, but needed a late goal on a PK with Chelsea down to 10 men.

This time we played them very even. We scored early, the pressing striker intercepted a pass from the CD back to the goalie and punched it home. So not exactly a function of this great offense :-)

I have mediocre CDs, and they couldn't defend a cross as Chelsea scored. Drew 1-1 again.

But overall we played very well. 3 clear cut chances to 1, 3 half chances to 1. 13 shots each. We passed really well, 84% D, 81%, M, 80% O. Our ratings beat theirs 6.86 to 6.69 for what that's worth too.

So it's got potential. And I've got a pretty good 4-2-3-1 I've been using so far too, so I can mix this in nicely, it fits well as a great alternative at a minimum.

Good news too ... I play Bournemouth again in the league next game!

Edited January 18, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[Deego619]

I have stumbled into my own interpretation of this system that has won me the Treble in 2019 with Athletic Bilbao, I like to call it the "Bil-Boa Constrictor".

I have 7 players in defensive positions when the opposition has the ball. We are compact in our pressing. A line of 3, a line of 4 and then my front three.

 

I had been playing a more traditional 4-4-1-1 similar to Ozil's Sacchi thread but I was being caught out by the likes of Atletico and Barcelona. Atletico's 4-4-2 with Lukaku and Greizmann up front was killing my high line and pressing with their pace and the quality balls from outwide. Barcelona's 4-1-4-1 was killing me because of well...Messi playing up front on his own. I needed a change in these bigger games in order to stay more solid also maintain the aggression of the original system.

I adopted this system mid season after a loss at the Bernabeu where we looked utterly hopeless and penned in against our rivals in the league. Notable results in the second half of the season included 3-0 against Barcelona, 3-0 away to Atletico, 4-2 against Man City and ultimately 2-0 against Bayern.

My back three are all excellent ball players. Comfortable on the ball and could easily slot into midfield. They can outnumber opposition strikers whenever the opposition get past the four man press in front of them.

My wall of four in front of them are all highly dynamic, high energy players. De Marcos and Balenziaga are very average full backs but they are duracell bunnies. They can maintain the press and also get up the pitch to support the attack when the opportunity arises. Our central two press and tackle hard together, strong aggressive players but most importantly also very technical. This is where the all round footballer that Ozil always recommends is so important, right at the core of the system. 

In front of these I have my attacking thrust. My Central Midfielder needs to be someone who can bring a ball up the pitch, not a playmaker. Someone who is either strong on the ball or a dribbler, I have played both Muniain and Ibai Gomez here this season and both have been excellent despite not having any competency in the position. Williams is my dynamite. He uses his pure pace to make runs either out wide or beyond Villalibre, who is an extremely hard working striker who presses the opposition defence.

 

This is against Barcelona in a 3-0 victory. Look at the diamond surrounding Messi and the short distance between my back line and Villalibre. 

 

 

Rakitic tries to play a through ball and my wing back mops it up. Notice still the "diamond" shape and number 4 is close by in assistance should Balenziaga require it. Pace is important in the backline like with the original tactic of the thread.

 

 

Here's something from the attacking phase in the CL final against Bayern (2-0 win). Notice how we almost have the infamous Brazillian "box shape" here. Not only that, but Lewandowski up top is in no mans land, in the middle of 5 of our players, as Bayern are hemmed back into their own box by our attacking five of the wing backs and my trident up top. Raul Garcia and Merino (8 and 10) are available to recycle the ball should we need them. 

 

 

The result here, is that Williams (21) receives the ball and drives into a small gap in the Bayern line and beats Neuer with a thumping shot from the edge of the box. My dynamite. Notice the advanced positions of my wing backs. Another common goalscoring opportunity I often get is one of the members of my Brazillian box finding them in space for a cross across goal, as we have made Bayern defend very narrow with our attacking front three.

I only use "Move into channels" for my striker as a PI.

Thank you Ozil for these fantastic threads that lead to these ideas coming to fruition. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by JDeeguain

[steakfaced]

Been following this thread for some time, and use a similar formation with Napoli, to which Koulibaly is a monster. I have to play around with the CBs a lot tho to get them to not get absolute destroyed on balls over the top. I've found that ST/COV/ST seems to work well, but I wish the DLP/D in midfield would play a bit deeper. As a result, Hamsik CM/S Jorginho DLP/D and whoever else is in midfield don't really get all star ratings.

 

I took over for Napoli in December with them in 11th, and we finished 5th and won the Europa but sometimes some players are extremely ineffective. I usually play insigne out wide with Mertens AMC. I brought in some solid backups, and David Luiz to help solidify the backline.

[Duke313]

22 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

I have stumbled into my own interpretation of this system that has won me the Treble in 2019 with Athletic Bilbao, I like to call it the "Bil-Boa Constrictor".

I have 7 players in defensive positions when the opposition has the ball. We are compact in our pressing. A line of 3, a line of 4 and then my front three.

 

I had been playing a more traditional 4-4-1-1 similar to Ozil's Sacchi thread but I was being caught out by the likes of Atletico and Barcelona. Atletico's 4-4-2 with Lukaku and Greizmann up front was killing my high line and pressing with their pace and the quality balls from outwide. Barcelona's 4-1-4-1 was killing me because of well...Messi playing up front on his own. I needed a change in these bigger games in order to stay more solid also maintain the aggression of the original system.

I adopted this system mid season after a loss at the Bernabeu where we looked utterly hopeless and penned in against our rivals in the league. Notable results in the second half of the season included 3-0 against Barcelona, 3-0 away to Atletico, 4-2 against Man City and ultimately 2-0 against Bayern.

My back three are all excellent ball players. Comfortable on the ball and could easily slot into midfield. They can outnumber opposition strikers whenever the opposition get past the four man press in front of them.

My wall of four in front of them are all highly dynamic, high energy players. De Marcos and Balenziaga are very average full backs but they are duracell bunnies. They can maintain the press and also get up the pitch to support the attack when the opportunity arises. Our central two press and tackle hard together, strong aggressive players but most importantly also very technical. This is where the all round footballer that Ozil always recommends is so important, right at the core of the system. 

In front of these I have my attacking thrust. My Central Midfielder needs to be someone who can bring a ball up the pitch, not a playmaker. Someone who is either strong on the ball or a dribbler, I have played both Muniain and Ibai Gomez here this season and both have been excellent despite not having any competency in the position. Williams is my dynamite. He uses his pure pace to make runs either out wide or beyond Villalibre, who is an extremely hard working striker who presses the opposition defence.

 

This is against Barcelona in a 3-0 victory. Look at the diamond surrounding Messi and the short distance between my back line and Villalibre. 

 

 

Rakitic tries to play a through ball and my wing back mops it up. Notice still the "diamond" shape and number 4 is close by in assistance should Balenziaga require it. Pace is important in the backline like with the original tactic of the thread.

 

 

Here's something from the attacking phase in the CL final against Bayern (2-0 win). Notice how we almost have the infamous Brazillian "box shape" here. Not only that, but Lewandowski up top is in no mans land, in the middle of 5 of our players, as Bayern are hemmed back into their own box by our attacking five of the wing backs and my trident up top. Raul Garcia and Merino (8 and 10) are available to recycle the ball should we need them. 

 

 

The result here, is that Williams (21) receives the ball and drives into a small gap in the Bayern line and beats Neuer with a thumping shot from the edge of the box. My dynamite. Notice the advanced positions of my wing backs. Another common goalscoring opportunity I often get is one of the members of my Brazillian box finding them in space for a cross across goal, as we have made Bayern defend very narrow with our attacking front three.

I only use "Move into channels" for my striker as a PI.

Thank you Ozil for these fantastic threads that lead to these ideas coming to fruition. 

Looks pretty solid defensively, what the goal difference like?

Have you tried other roles for the striker other than Defensive Forward?

 

[fmorange1]

This is still a very impressive and one of the most informative topics in the FM community.

[McCollins]

This thread is like a holy bible to me, shout to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! for creating it and inspiring me out of my little FM18 rut I had after running a couple of good saves before Xmas. Currently just starting the 2nd season with Ajax having won the Eredivisie and Dutch Cup first year, using a 3-5-1-1 almost identical in style to the original post. 

Still struggling to find a way to consistently counter 4-2-3-1s/4-3-3s against top teams in Europe/PSV & Feyenoord though, latest I have come up with which won the Dutch Super Cup against PSV is the below. Almost in the shape of a conte 3-4-3 but retaining the fluid, high press, and in attack Van De Beek pushes forward to almost become the CAM he usually is, Blind steps out of the back 3 when facing 1 lone striker to almost become the usual central DLP, and the IWBs play as supporting CMs when in possession, but allow crucial extra numbers out wide when defending, and this lets the inside forwards press higher without us getting exposed. As yet, it’s a bit untested long term, and I’m possibly thinking of moving the IWBs back inside as carriellos, but I’d love to hear of anyone who’s managed to adapt the system with success and not lose the core principles of the diamonds, high press, width and style of Cruyff from the original tactic!