Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 hours ago, Clifton said:

Am I the only one who can't see the image?

Sorry, I suspect it is something to do with uploading from a satellite wifi connection in South Sudan 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I've just wrapped up the first season with my take on that Louis Van Gaal vid. Here's where the tactic ended:

The specific position marking PIs on the LCB/RCB were dropped only a few games after I had added it. I was a little pre-mature in my thoughts on it and it didn't pan out.

That the central midfielders shouldn't drift too far wide and into the wingers space (overlapping) is why I opted for CM(S) over a CAR(S) in those areas, as well as needing to present as recycling options for the wingers. CM(S) is pretty versatile and the right players do everything needed as described in the video. I stuck with this decision throughout the season, but had also considered BBM(S), I figured however that their inbuilt roaming may seem step into the wider spaces or also stepping into the forwards' space.

Strike partnership is something I'm still uh.. uncertain on. Most of the season, I played with an AF(A) but when you're playing possession football, you're rarely getting the kind of vertical stretch that is one of the reasons you'd opt for the role. CF(A) still leads the line similarly but offers a bit more movement to potentially pull defenders out of position. Shadow striker was rarely as effective as I'd of liked throughout the season - I never tweaked it but I'm contemplating an AM(A) in season 2 with some PIs.

Low crossing was eventually added as a consequence of not really possessing players that would dominate aerially rather than something specific to the style.

How the league season finished. Less goals conceded than that famous Ajax side but flip side is significantly less goals scored. Both domestic cups won and a first round knockout in the Champions League after topping a group containing Juventus. Admittedly, domestic success isn't hard to achieve with the quality Ajax start with but still nice.

AZ lead the charts in Possession and Passes Completed.

A look at where the side's goals come from in the league:

40% of goals coming from crosses, free kicks or corners was a pleasant surprise. I often find it tends to be higher for me personally in FM 20.

Quincy Promes lead the goal scoring charts for the team with 17 across all competitions. Dusan Tadic (15) and Joshua Zirkee (14) were the only other players to hit double figures across all competitions. The winger role was probably the most productive in terms of goals scored.

Neres, also playing out wide, lead the assist chart at 13.

All in all, pretty happy with the results as a starting point and with a lot of what I saw on the pitch. The objective heading into season 2, is to get the side scoring more whilst adhering to the spirit of the recreation.

[ElJefe4]

I'm sure it's been posted elsewhere but thought it was worth dropping this in here:

Really good video, well presented and easy to follow. Certainly lives up to the channel name, 'Football Made Simple'. Ultimately, this is the style of football I would absolutely love to perfect in FM.

I also enjoyed the Tifo Football video on the last page, which nicely explained LvG's 3-4-3. An important point made in that video was that "LVG was a product of the Dutch school of total football... he took a less individualistic approach to this."

In my opinion, this is perhaps most evident in the role of the central midfield players. The video on LVG's Ajax states that the 2 CM's "would act as pressers", it mentions their positional intelligence and work rate and the animation shows plenty of movement, but all in the middle third of the pitch. There is little emphasis placed on their technical ability, nor any mention of them supporting attacks, creating chances or breaking lines. This is surely the Carrilero role in-game, as Ozil has chosen in his replication on the previous page. 

The above video of Cruyff's 343, however, states that "the wide CMs allowed great movement, they had great fluidity and were important in manipulating the opposition from the half spaces." It also states that these 2 players 'were the most creative in the team' and emphasises how Eusebio (right of the midfield diamond) would make runs behind the front line. This is what I've had the most trouble replicating in game this year. I've had good success with a possession based, attacking 433 with Lyon which featured creative, technical players in these roles, but was not able to see them shine. I've tried a variety of roles from CM (S) with PIs, CM (A), Mezzala, Advanced Playmaker etc but haven't quite cracked it. Would be interested to see what people thought would be the best way to replicate the creativity from these players that the above video mentions? I should mention actually, that my 433 used either Inverted Wingers or Inside Forwards, so I am hopeful that my CMs are allowed more space if I chose the out and out 'Winger' role in this tactic.

Another difference (I think) would be the use of the wingers. In LVG's 343, the wingers were seemingly instructed to stay wide near enough at all times. This is straight forward to replicate in game with Winger (Support). The above video on Cruyff's version, however, says that "the wingers typically stayed wide during the build up in order to stretch out the opposition and create more space for those in the centre, when the ball moved higher up the pitch they came alive. Both wingers... could make movement from out to in". With this in mind, what are people's thoughts on this role? Would it still be Winger (Support) as their primary focus is still to stretch the pitch as much as possible, and rely on their intelligence and off the ball movement to make 'out to in' runs if the opportunity arises? Or would the seemingly more direct Winger (Attack) role be more suitable as it would encourage more aggressive (inward) movements in the final third? If my focus was purely on a direct in-game translation of the roles used by Cruyff, I would lean towards the 'Attack' role. The problem I have with that though is that I was planning on using a SS (A) behind a CF (A), and I am wary of having all 4 attacking players with a 'Very Attacking' mentality. Perhaps I need to do further research into the roles of the Central Attacking Midfield player and the Centre Forward.

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts, firstly on a direct translation of Cruyff's system, and secondly of a practical workaround given the potential limitations of the Match Engine. At the least I hope the video itself is useful/interesting to a few people.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

In terms of roles and formation I'd probably opt for something like (after watching the video):

                                              F9(Su)

    IW(Su)                               SS(At)                          IW(Su)

                        MEZ(su)                         BBM(Su)

                                             HB(De)

         BPD(De)                     Lib(Su)                 BPD(De)

                                             SK(Su)

 

Edit: Heading into season 3 of my Ajax side that was using LVG's system, so I'll switch over to this and test it out.

Edited October 21, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[TheJanitor]

Seems like Manchester City played a similar formation against Arsenal. They defended in a 442, but in attack Sterling and Aguero played fluidly upfront, Mahrez and Foden were high and wide, Cancelo moved inward to create a 3 man midfield with Rodri and Silva and Walker, Dias and Ake formed a 3 man defense.

I was never successful in transforming a 442 into a back three, but it is always something I wanted to do.

Edited October 21, 2020 by TheJanitor

[ElJefe4]

11 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

In terms of roles and formation I'd probably opt for something like (after watching the video):

                                              F9(Su)

    IW(Su)                               SS(At)                          IW(Su)

                        MEZ(su)                         BBM(Su)

                                             HB(De)

         BPD(De)                     Lib(Su)                 BPD(De)

                                             SK(Su)

 

Edit: Heading into season 3 of my Ajax side that was using LVG's system, so I'll switch over to this and test it out.

I think its testament to the fluidity of the tactic and the versatility of the players used that I'm really struggling to work out the roles for the forward players.

I largely agree with your defence and midfield. From my reading, Juan Carlos (MCL) seems to have been slightly more conservative than Eusbeio (MCR), for that reason I think I'm going to go with Carrilero personally. From my reading I've noticed a slight asymmetry, with Salinas staying wider on the right and Stoichkov moving more directly towards goal from the left. For this reason I will use the AMR as Winger (Support), which should free up a bit more space in the right half space for the Box to Box midfielder to make forward runs. On the other side, the AML will be more aggressive in his movements towards goal, either as a Winger or Inverted Winger with the Attack duty. With this is mind, using a Carrilero rather than Mezzala in the MCL slot may help to provide some further width and stability on this side.  

I haven't used a Libero yet, I might start with a basic BPD (C) and then a player in the DM strata. Maybe when I'm a few seasons in like you, and my players have developed a bit more, I'll try out the Libero.

The role of the attacking midfielder is interesting. I want him to hold his position during the build up phase so that we keep the diamond shape in midfield, but make runs into the box later on. The description of the Shadow Striker sounds perfect in terms of his attacking movements, but will he move away from the tip of the diamond too early in the build up? If the Shadow Striker compromises the diamond shape, I might have to try Attacking Midfielder (Attack).

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I had Laudrup in mind with my choice of the Mezzala there - it was that or an AP but I find the Mezzala is suitably creative without being a ball magnet. For Juan Carlos, I agree with your choice of Carrilero,

As far as the inverted wingers go, I coupled this with width set to Wide (Balanced mentality). They stretch the pitch and often end up playing like a regular winner, but also make the inside runs when appropriate. So far, this has left plenty of space for the Mez & BBM to attack.

Shadow Striker starts quite deep I find, which is nice, but I'm not really a fan of the role. At least not with a single striker up front in this fashion (on the other hand, behind two strikers I love it) . Didn't really perform as expected in the two seasons using the LVG system and its shaping up the same here. Movement seems too vertical and often ends up on the toes of striker. You also see this happen at the opposite end with the CB & HB stepping on each others toes but not as often or as detrimentally as the issue up front. Contemplating a switch to Trequartista, who may use the space more intelligently. 

[anxiousAnarchist]

On 12/10/2020 at 02:53, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Sorry, I suspect it is something to do with uploading from a satellite wifi connection in South Sudan

Christ aren't they in a civil war? Hope you're well man

[ElJefe4]

On 21/10/2020 at 20:26, NotSoSpecialOne said:

I had Laudrup in mind with my choice of the Mezzala there - it was that or an AP but I find the Mezzala is suitably creative without being a ball magnet. For Juan Carlos, I agree with your choice of Carrilero,

As far as the inverted wingers go, I coupled this with width set to Wide (Balanced mentality). They stretch the pitch and often end up playing like a regular winner, but also make the inside runs when appropriate. So far, this has left plenty of space for the Mez & BBM to attack.

Shadow Striker starts quite deep I find, which is nice, but I'm not really a fan of the role. At least not with a single striker up front in this fashion (on the other hand, behind two strikers I love it) . Didn't really perform as expected in the two seasons using the LVG system and its shaping up the same here. Movement seems too vertical and often ends up on the toes of striker. You also see this happen at the opposite end with the CB & HB stepping on each others toes but not as often or as detrimentally as the issue up front. Contemplating a switch to Trequartista, who may use the space more intelligently. 

Yeah that makes sense, I have Razvan Marin in that slot who is well rounded but unspectacular at the moment so Carrilero seems to be working fairly well.

Ziyech has made a good start for me as AM (A), not really getting much out of my striker (Tadic) though so I might alter his role as I move through the season.

Look forward to hearing how it works out for you.

[ElJefe4]

I wanted to include this in the last post but the formatting of my last post was messing up, hope it appears ok for everyone.

Anyway, would appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on this. As you can see, we're set up in a 343 and I'm pretty happy with the shape overall. Ball retention has been good, however, one thing which has happened 3 or 4 times already (and I'm only 5 or 6 matches into the season) is a wide CB being tackled and leaving us wide open. In this case it is my DCL, Martinez.

His usual passing options (AML, MLC and DM) are either cut off or slightly risky. He ends up dwelling on the ball and getting tackled. I've highlighted my #5, Ajer, who is playing as a BPD (C). The 2 'outside' CBs are on stopper in an attempt to close the space in front of them and also to accentuate the depth between themselves and Ajer, so as to create another diamond between the back 3 and DM. Unfortunately, Ajer consistently positions himself too far forward when we have possession. As a result, the back 3 is too flat. I've highlighted where I would prefer him to be stood and how this would create another diamond.

Any ideas how to get him to drop off a bit more when we're in possession so that we can recycle possession more comfortably when opposition press a little bit higher? 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Not had the opportunity to see how a Trequartista fairs in this setup, as I've gone off to do a 3-4-2-1 in the style of Brazil's 2002 world cup winning side on a whim hah. Planning on returning to this tomorrow.

 

I've definitely noticed a few oddities defensively with my time spent with this formation. Martinez has the Bring Ball Out Of Defense trait which could contribute to getting caught on the ball, potentially. Definitely familiar with the flat back three as you've described. Even with the Libero(Su), you still get that kind of thing. The only logical reason I can think of for the central defender not to drop as a passing option, is because he's trying to stay close to the opposition striker. I don't see a way to fix this at present. Sweeper Keeper should push 5-10 yards out of the box to be a slightly more safer passing option if the CB is unwilling to drop. But that doesn't really happen either.

[ElJefe4]

2 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Not had the opportunity to see how a Trequartista fairs in this setup, as I've gone off to do a 3-4-2-1 in the style of Brazil's 2002 world cup winning side on a whim hah. Planning on returning to this tomorrow.

 

I've definitely noticed a few oddities defensively with my time spent with this formation. Martinez has the Bring Ball Out Of Defense trait which could contribute to getting caught on the ball, potentially. Definitely familiar with the flat back three as you've described. Even with the Libero(Su), you still get that kind of thing. The only logical reason I can think of for the central defender not to drop as a passing option, is because he's trying to stay close to the opposition striker. I don't see a way to fix this at present. Sweeper Keeper should push 5-10 yards out of the box to be a slightly more safer passing option if the CB is unwilling to drop. But that doesn't really happen either.

Yeah it's proving to be quite frustrating, the shape on the whole is working as I want it to. Still tweaks to be made but on the whole I'm pleased with the positioning of most players and their general movements. The middle CB dropping off to give a passing angle to the wide CB just seems like a really simple thing to implement, so its annoying that it seems quite hit and miss in game.

Ajer is most comfortable as a stopper. Would that be a reason that he positions himself slightly higher up even when cover is selected? Possibly not but I'm going to set his individual training to the BPD (C) in the hope that he starts to change his position slightly.

Blind's preferred role as a CB is BDP (C), I might drop him back there and push Ajer into DM for a couple of games to see if there's any noticeable change.

Edited October 23, 2020 by ElJefe4

[NotSoSpecialOne]

12 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Yeah it's proving to be quite frustrating, the shape on the whole is working as I want it to. Still tweaks to be made but on the whole I'm pleased with the positioning of most players and their general movements. The middle CB dropping off to give a passing angle to the wide CB just seems like a really simple thing to implement, so its annoying that it seems quite hit and miss in game.

Ajer is most comfortable as a stopper. Would that be a reason that he positions himself slightly higher up even when cover is selected? Possibly not but I'm going to set his individual training to the BPD (C) in the hope that he starts to change his position slightly.

Blind's preferred role as a CB is BDP (C), I might drop him back there and push Ajer into DM for a couple of games to see if there's any noticeable change.

I did use BPD(C) briefly during the LVG take but I don't recall it ever noticably dropping deeper to present as a passing option. That was only a few games though before I just went back to BPD(D).

With my current setup, I don't have anyone who is even half comfortable in the Libero(Su) position as of yet - I had intended to use Martinez there for the season but a few games in, a big bid came in and he was gone. Still early September so the replacements are a way off being comfortable. And I just can't get invested in this save to see it through, I might have to holiday the season and see how it goes heh.

[04texag]

If you guys go back a month, I did a multiple post series within this topic from where I took Ozil's original ideas and updated them for FM20. The defensive issues you guys keep trying to solve I solved quite easily. 

 

 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

6 minutes ago, 04texag said:

If you guys go back a month, I did a multiple post series within this topic from where I took Ozil's original ideas and updated them for FM20. The defensive issues you guys keep trying to solve I solved quite easily. 

 

 

Yes, I remember your post. I'm not seeing how telling the Libero to hold position facilities dropping deep when necessary to receive a pass but I'll give it a shot.

[04texag]

You were concerned about him getting too high up the pitch and with recycling possession. This was never an issue I saw. The closing down less instructions across the back, and stay wider on the CD's, and the hold position on Libero I believe were all contributing to the back three play, sum of parts type thing.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I can only speak for myself in that his positioning generally is fine and he's where I want him to be. It's only in the specific case of one of the wide CBs (I opt for stay wider on them as a default) being in possession; the expectation in this scenario being the central most defender drops off slightly so he is a passing option for the wide CB. Instead, it usually plays out that the wide CB is pressed, the central defender doesn't quite drop off and possession is recycled to the goalkeeper instead. I still have Onana so that's not much of a concern, as he's pretty good with the ball (although again, I feel as if a particularly aggressively sweeper keeper should be pushed up out of the box in this scenario but I digress, that's probably for another discussion). 

I do have my CBs all closing down less much for the same reason you do as well.

[04texag]

Ya, it almost seems like you want the PRD from a previous FM, the sweeper, not a libero. But that's not present anymore. Maybe a BP-C, with some custom PIs?

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Personal experience BP-C doesn't exhibit that behaviour either. But I may not have given it enough time to 'bed in' in a previous season admittedly.

I was on FM 16 before making the jump to 20 - which still had the deeper 'sweeper' position and the libero role was via that position too. Would do the trick nicely here.

Well, Valencia just thumped my AJax side 7-1 at the Mestalla, not helping the lack of interest that is hah. Players refunded the tickets of travelling supporters, that's something right? 

Edited October 24, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[ElJefe4]

2 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Personal experience BP-C doesn't exhibit that behaviour either. But I may not have given it enough time to 'bed in' in a previous season admittedly.

I was on FM 16 before making the jump to 20 - which still had the deeper 'sweeper' position and the libero role was via that position too. Would do the trick nicely here.

Well, Valencia just thumped my AJax side 7-1 at the Mestalla, not helping the lack of interest that is hah. Players refunded the tickets of travelling supporters, that's something right? 

I've got a trip to the Mestalla in December, hoping for a better result. Just played them at home and had a comfortable 2-0 win with 70% possession. They were very defensive.

Would be interested to know from you guys how many touches your striker is getting? I've started off with Tadic playing as a Complete Forward (Attack). I want my forward to have the freedom to drop deep and link play, but I'm wary of completely losing the focal point of the attack and ending up with sterile possession. I was hoping CF (A) would allow him enough freedom to drop into pockets of space whilst also being something of a threat on the last line, available for low crosses when players reach the byline etc. He's bagged 7 goals and 5 assists in 11 matches so he's doing well numbers wise, although a few have been pens/FKs. 

I've just looked through the analysis of previous games and he tends to only get about 35 touches of the ball in 90 minutes. Sometimes the stats say he is receiving single figure passes across 90 minutes. Has anyone managed to get their striker more involved in general play whilst retaining the focal point/threat in behind? I've currently got Ziyech playing behind him as AM (A). I'd be tempted to change Tadic to a F9 and Ziyech to a SS but I had that combo last time I tried this formation and didn't see great results.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

False Nine position has averaged 16.8 passes received over 5 games. 2 goals scored, no assists. I've been contemplating making the switch to a CF(A) or CF(Su) though.

In my opinion, getting 30+ touches most games is a pretty solid amount for a striker, especially one that may not be in a very patient possession system. I'd probably caution against changing to a F9/SS, because what you've got seems to be working. You could probably have Tadic's understudy learn Comes Deep To Get The Ball so that player'll drop occasionally (sort of like a F9) and potentially get more involved but not lose much of the focal point that comes from the role.

 

[ElJefe4]

On 24/10/2020 at 17:54, NotSoSpecialOne said:

False Nine position has averaged 16.8 passes received over 5 games. 2 goals scored, no assists. I've been contemplating making the switch to a CF(A) or CF(Su) though.

In my opinion, getting 30+ touches most games is a pretty solid amount for a striker, especially one that may not be in a very patient possession system. I'd probably caution against changing to a F9/SS, because what you've got seems to be working. You could probably have Tadic's understudy learn Comes Deep To Get The Ball so that player'll drop occasionally (sort of like a F9) and potentially get more involved but not lose much of the focal point that comes from the role.

 

Yeah I think you're right. I've stuck with the current roles and had good results so I think it's what I'll go with for now. How is your season going? 

I've got a bit more to add about CBs but I can't quite figure out the formatting so I'll do it in a separate post (sorry to spam guys).

[ElJefe4]

Ok, so I've been thinking about the positioning of the 3 centre backs a bit more. I can't quite figure out how to make the middle CB drop any deeper, but a few recent matches have made me think about pushing the wider CBs higher up, which would effectively solve the problem of the flat back 3 and potentially help us going forward as well.

Traditionally, the 3 centre backs were used to maintain a numerical advantage over 2 strikers in a 442 system. As we all know, the majority of teams are now lining up with 1 up front. This is even more common when you're managing a top team and your opponent decides to defend deep. As illustrated beautifully by my MS Paint skills below, this leads to a 3 vs 1 at the back and 7 vs 9 going forward. Whilst this isn't terrible by any means (we're still scoring plenty of goals), it did make me wonder if I can coax those 2 wide CBs out of that defensive area a little bit more in order to create a 9 vs 9 scenario in midfield/attack. Going 1 vs 1 at the back may seem overly attacking, but I'd only be wanting them to step into the highlighted areas below, so out of the 5 outfield players nearest our own goal, 4 of them would still be Ajax men. I'm thinking this would help further with ball retention as it provides an extra passing option for my DM, and even creates another diamond at the back.

I've had more success from my wide central midfield players in this set up, but at times I do find them occupying similar positions to opposition wingers (see my #6 and opposition #11, and my #8 and opposition #8), which means we bypass them and go straight to our own wingers. If I could get my wide centre backs to step into the highlighted spaces, they could draw out the opposition wingers and free up my own midfield players.

Anyone have any thoughts on a) if they think this is a decent idea or too gung-ho or b) how I would achieve this?

Possibly useful info: the wide CBs are on BDP (S) with the 'Stay Wider' PI and the instruction to mark the opposing AMR/AML position (not man) when coming up against wingers in that position. I can't see anything in the PIs which would encourage this movement, so maybe PPMs?

Edited October 30, 2020 by ElJefe4

[Xavier Lukhas]

il y a une heure, ElJefe4 a dit :

I can't see anything in the PIs which would encourage this movement, so maybe PPMs?

You can't really get that in FM because FM is very stiff in terms of positioning and overall positional awareness. Try using "Likes to Play Way Out of Trouble", and maybe "Brings Ball Out of Defence". I recall people saying that "Brings Ball Out of Defence" didn't work in the version of FM where it was introduced. Defenders who are good dribblers will "naturally" tend to dribble a bit into midfield, because in general players tend to play according to their attributes most of the time. For example, a player who is good only at dribbling tends to focus on that; which is why even with no PPMs/Traits, different players play differently even when using the same role and duty.

But yeah, it's not very possible to get the wide CBs to move more often into midfield. Not just dribbling up and trying to find a pass which is something that does happen, but actively staying up and trying to make themselves available more often when the team has the ball. At least, I haven't really figured it out myself despite trying a lot of different things, that's for sure!

[ElJefe4]

41 minutes ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

You can't really get that in FM because FM is very stiff in terms of positioning and overall positional awareness. Try using "Likes to Play Way Out of Trouble", and maybe "Brings Ball Out of Defence". I recall people saying that "Brings Ball Out of Defence" didn't work in the version of FM where it was introduced. Defenders who are good dribblers will "naturally" tend to dribble a bit into midfield, because in general players tend to play according to their attributes most of the time. For example, a player who is good only at dribbling tends to focus on that; which is why even with no PPMs/Traits, different players play differently even when using the same role and duty.

But yeah, it's not very possible to get the wide CBs to move more often into midfield. Not just dribbling up and trying to find a pass which is something that does happen, but actively staying up and trying to make themselves available more often when the team has the ball. At least, I haven't really figured it out myself despite trying a lot of different things, that's for sure!

Ah I see, that's a shame. I suppose those quite minor things would be difficult for them to implement, suppose we can't have everything. Cheers for the response!

_____________________________________

On the tactic in general, I'm at the winter break now in Season 1. P18, W17, D0, L1, GF58, GA9 in the Eredivisie. I've been trying for ages to get a 343 working that accurately resembles Cruyff's sides and this is the closest I've got, really happy with it at the moment. Might do a little write up on it at the end of the season and show some of the pros and cons.

[Xavier Lukhas]

il y a 26 minutes, ElJefe4 a dit :

Ah I see, that's a shame. I suppose those quite minor things would be difficult for them to implement, suppose we can't have everything. Cheers for the response!

Additional note: "Focus Play Through Middle" increases the Mentality of all players who play in the axis of the pitch except the strikers. You can use that to increase the Mentality of the centre-backs... but it will also increase the Mentality of the DMs, CMs and AMCs. Mentality is essentially how much risk a player is going to take with his football, all other things being equal of course. That being said, SI hid the number associated with Mentality in favour of a adjective. It may not be clear but basically in FM20, if a player has a Mentality of 15 or 17 it's going to be shown as "Very Attacking", while in previous FMs you could use a skin mod to know whether it was 15 or 17 or whatever number. It wasn't much, but sometimes you make changes and you don't know if the Mentality of a player has actually changed or not. SI most likely hid that number for the sake of "realism"; I personally think it was an useful tool to see if the changes you made did something or not.

[denen123]

On 15/10/2020 at 15:09, NotSoSpecialOne said:

I've just wrapped up the first season with my take on that Louis Van Gaal vid. Here's where the tactic ended:

The specific position marking PIs on the LCB/RCB were dropped only a few games after I had added it. I was a little pre-mature in my thoughts on it and it didn't pan out.

That the central midfielders shouldn't drift too far wide and into the wingers space (overlapping) is why I opted for CM(S) over a CAR(S) in those areas, as well as needing to present as recycling options for the wingers. CM(S) is pretty versatile and the right players do everything needed as described in the video. I stuck with this decision throughout the season, but had also considered BBM(S), I figured however that their inbuilt roaming may seem step into the wider spaces or also stepping into the forwards' space.

Strike partnership is something I'm still uh.. uncertain on. Most of the season, I played with an AF(A) but when you're playing possession football, you're rarely getting the kind of vertical stretch that is one of the reasons you'd opt for the role. CF(A) still leads the line similarly but offers a bit more movement to potentially pull defenders out of position. Shadow striker was rarely as effective as I'd of liked throughout the season - I never tweaked it but I'm contemplating an AM(A) in season 2 with some PIs.

Low crossing was eventually added as a consequence of not really possessing players that would dominate aerially rather than something specific to the style.

How the league season finished. Less goals conceded than that famous Ajax side but flip side is significantly less goals scored. Both domestic cups won and a first round knockout in the Champions League after topping a group containing Juventus. Admittedly, domestic success isn't hard to achieve with the quality Ajax start with but still nice.

AZ lead the charts in Possession and Passes Completed.

A look at where the side's goals come from in the league:

40% of goals coming from crosses, free kicks or corners was a pleasant surprise. I often find it tends to be higher for me personally in FM 20.

Quincy Promes lead the goal scoring charts for the team with 17 across all competitions. Dusan Tadic (15) and Joshua Zirkee (14) were the only other players to hit double figures across all competitions. The winger role was probably the most productive in terms of goals scored.

Neres, also playing out wide, lead the assist chart at 13.

All in all, pretty happy with the results as a starting point and with a lot of what I saw on the pitch. The objective heading into season 2, is to get the side scoring more whilst adhering to the spirit of the recreation.

This tactic is beautiful. I personally opted for a duo of Car, but yours looks really beautiful.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

15 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Yeah I think you're right. I've stuck with the current roles and had good results so I think it's what I'll go with for now. How is your season going? 

I've got a bit more to add about CBs but I can't quite figure out the formatting so I'll do it in a separate post (sorry to spam guys).

To be honest, my determination stat may have severely decreased because I haven't been able to muster the motivation to go much further after that heavy defeat to Valencia in favour of other saves. I did switch False Nine to a CF(A) as you use though, which proved beneficial. 

Re: The wide center backs. I wonder if Gets Forward Whenever Possible would see them more frequently step into the spaces you highlighted. In theory, it should... in practice? Maybe not.

 

[ElJefe4]

Was about to do an in depth post looking at my 343 at the winter break with Ajax. We were averaging 2.7 goals per game and firing on all cylinders. Post winter break however the goals have completely dried up! Played 9 matches, and other than a single 5-0 win, we've scored 2 goals once, 1 goal four times and failed to score in 3 matches. That's after failing to score only 3 times in the first 30+ games of the season. Nothing like this game to bring you back down to earth when you think you've finally cracked it with a tactic!

 

[Xavier Lukhas]

Il y a 3 heures, ElJefe4 a dit :

Was about to do an in depth post looking at my 343 at the winter break with Ajax. We were averaging 2.7 goals per game and firing on all cylinders. Post winter break however the goals have completely dried up! Played 9 matches, and other than a single 5-0 win, we've scored 2 goals once, 1 goal four times and failed to score in 3 matches. That's after failing to score only 3 times in the first 30+ games of the season. Nothing like this game to bring you back down to earth when you think you've finally cracked it with a tactic!

 

It's FM's usual (and quite brutal) mid-season adjustment. Teams reassess where they are, their objectives and which other clubs they need to be more or less wary of. Remember when just at the half-season mark the board asks you again what you think you can achieve? That's the same for AI clubs, but since it happens at one or two specific times during a season instead of continuously adjusting match after match like IRL, it's very jarring and the effects very brutal.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Xavier Lukhas

[ElJefe4]

On 03/11/2020 at 03:54, Xavier Lukhas said:

It's FM's usual (and quite brutal) mid-season adjustment. Teams reassess where they are, their objectives and which other clubs they need to be more or less wary of. Remember when just at the half-season mark the board asks you again what you think you can achieve? That's the same for AI clubs, but since it happens at one or two specific times during a season instead of continuously adjusting match after match like IRL, it's very jarring and the effects very brutal.

Ah I see, thanks for the info. Do you have a general rule in order to counteract it or would it be dependent on each specific tactic?

Edit - Just looking through my fixtures since the winter break. The vast majority of AI teams are now setting up in a 4231 (Wide). I'm torn between sticking with the 343 and seeing if it can be worked on and just switching to a new system. Ultimately this whole save is about developing a proper 343 so that's my priority. With that in mind, I've noted a couple of things that are contributing to our problems. The first one is the build up from our own GK.

As you can see below, when we set up in a 343 (shooting from right to left), the opposition 4231 actually means that they can go man for man against my 3 CBs and DM (the defensive diamond, if you will). As our wingers play high up the pitch, the space between them and our wide CBs is usually too big for this to be a consistent method of progressing the ball out of defence. This means that we will usually look to pass into the DM or one of the wide CMs. Depending on the positioning of the opposition wingers, the pass into the wide CMs is not always on. I have also noticed that my wide CMs come quite deep in order to receive the ball from goal kicks, which ends up being counter productive as it allows the opposition midfield to push up, and the gap between front and back remains massive. Ideally, I'd have them actually move away from my CBs and have my wingers or #10 drop deeper to receive the ball, but I'm not sure that this is possible to implement. 

Does anyone have any ideas on how best to tackle the 4231 without completely moving away from my preferred 343 shape?

P.S. I'd actually like an interactive tactics board in the game, we see coaches with real ones all the time. Pretty much every manager must have one in their office where they can slide the counters around and see different systems match up. Would make it a lot easier to visualise. Drawing that up took me ages. 

Edit 2 - Seeing as the above is quite detailed/specific, it might be useful to post my actual tactic as well.

Only PIs are 'Stay Wider' on the 2 stoppers and 'Get Further Forward' and 'Stay Wider' on the BBM.

Edited November 5, 2020 by ElJefe4

[Xavier Lukhas]

Il y a 4 heures, ElJefe4 a dit :

Ah I see, thanks for the info. Do you have a general rule in order to counteract it or would it be dependent on each specific tactic?

You've done good deductive work already. Having played in the Netherlands, Ajax's reputation is absolutely crushing; to the point that bar a few exceptions, most teams are going to be very happy to sit back and wait while doing absolutely nothing; and if they get mauled, so be it. This is the point where you can put your knowledge of balanced tactical setups into the trash. You can afford to play more direct, you can afford to use more aggressive over/underlaping roles in midfield like MEZ, you might want to drop the DM from DLP(D) to something more boring like HB. You may consider making the AMC drop deeper to escape his markers and provide balls with a role such as AP(S) instead of having him congest the area by running forward. You're going to need more movement in unpredictable ways to make deep defences implode, and CAR or CM(S) don't provide it naturally. This doesn't happen as much IRL for reasons such as:

- No one defends in a 4-2-3-1 Wide (or 4-1-4-1 Wide or 4-2-4), because no team actually defends with three people up front who never come down to defend;
- Even the lowliest and the most negative team in the world would still hope to get a cheeky goal on a counter or set-piece, so they're not going to pretty much do nothing for 90 minutes like in FM;
- You can very well use a different formation to attack and defend: Mexico uses (or used to use) the 3-4-3 Diamond with the ball, but defended in essentially a 4-4-1-1.

Those are just things you can try, not necessarily the "right" answer. Against a team that doesn't play balanced football and doesn't care about even scoring at all, you don't have to play balanced tactics either. FM isn't a simulation, no matter what Miles Jacobson says about the topic. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Xavier Lukhas

[ElJefe4]

22 hours ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

You've done good deductive work already. Having played in the Netherlands, Ajax's reputation is absolutely crushing; to the point that bar a few exceptions, most teams are going to be very happy to sit back and wait while doing absolutely nothing; and if they get mauled, so be it. This is the point where you can put your knowledge of balanced tactical setups into the trash. You can afford to play more direct, you can afford to use more aggressive over/underlaping roles in midfield like MEZ, you might want to drop the DM from DLP(D) to something more boring like HB. You may consider making the AMC drop deeper to escape his markers and provide balls with a role such as AP(S) instead of having him congest the area by running forward. You're going to need more movement in unpredictable ways to make deep defences implode, and CAR or CM(S) don't provide it naturally. This doesn't happen as much IRL for reasons such as:

- No one defends in a 4-2-3-1 Wide (or 4-1-4-1 Wide or 4-2-4), because no team actually defends with three people up front who never come down to defend;
- Even the lowliest and the most negative team in the world would still hope to get a cheeky goal on a counter or set-piece, so they're not going to pretty much do nothing for 90 minutes like in FM;
- You can very well use a different formation to attack and defend: Mexico uses (or used to use) the 3-4-3 Diamond with the ball, but defended in essentially a 4-4-1-1.

Those are just things you can try, not necessarily the "right" answer. Against a team that doesn't play balanced football and doesn't care about even scoring at all, you don't have to play balanced tactics either. FM isn't a simulation, no matter what Miles Jacobson says about the topic. 

I completely get everything you've said, cheers. Problem for me though, is that not only am I now creating less, I've also started to ship goals regularly! Teams seem to have cracked switches of play into the AML/AMR position to exploit the gaps in the full back positions. Never seen such a big mid season drop off. Starting to feel like a real struggle. Anyway, don't want to wallow too much. 

There must be some way to make a Cruyff 343 consistently successful, and if there is I won't stop until I find it! 

[steakfaced]

22 minutes ago, ElJefe4 said:

I completely get everything you've said, cheers. Problem for me though, is that not only am I now creating less, I've also started to ship goals regularly! Teams seem to have cracked switches of play into the AML/AMR position to exploit the gaps in the full back positions. Never seen such a big mid season drop off. Starting to feel like a real struggle. Anyway, don't want to wallow too much. 

There must be some way to make a Cruyff 343 consistently successful, and if there is I won't stop until I find it! 

With my OL team I settled on a similar structure but had to drop the AML/R to ML/R to get them to even come back on defense. I find this is better, they get more space, can be put on attack as well and get forward and backwards with ease. I always find an AML/R on A is lazy.

[hehehemann]

I've been trying to replicate this formation too and have been coming up against that second half of season struggle after a tremendous first half season dominating teams. I am Sporting Lisbon though and besides Porto and Benfica most teams are inferior to us. 

What I've been doing to help against the more park the bus styles is dropping my wingers back one space into the wide midfield areas and putting them onto WM-A roles with stay wider. I've also had to drop the defensive line to standard as it seems to allow the opposition to venture a little further forward which in turn creates counter opportunities and in general a little more space for my players to use...But most importantly I have had to stop the shorter passing instruction. I'm still dominating possession with 65% to 70% but the passes are more dangerous from us and with these tweaks we are back to winning convincingly.

[04texag]

Post my recent learnings, I really need to retry this formation. 

Against park the buss, what you're saying really makes sense, as you have to stretch the width of the field bc the opposition is dictating your depth of field and compressing you. I would take it one step further though and do wm-s or w-s. As you really need these wide players to hug the line and pin the opposition fullbacks to the full width of the pitch. This increases the size of the vertical channels and gives you interior room to maneuver.

 

As you mentioned you need to cut short passes as when you go wide like this, you need to lower tempo and up passing distance. It's either fast and narrow or long, slow and wide, as your either quickly playing between the lines or going around the opposition at the flanks. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by 04texag

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I've come back to my save. I probably chucked the towel in early; I had Blind out for the start of the season which has ended up being more impactful than I gave credit (Onana and van der Beek are the only other starters I have that aren't under 21) plus losing my first choice striker near the end of deadline day didn't help either (no time for a replacement and his back up isn't first time ready yet, woo). 

Changes I've made: F9 -> CF(A). SS(A) to an AM(A). Dropped Be More Creative (On positive mentality with several roaming/creative roles, this TI is overkill). Passing from Standard to Shorter and Tempo from Slightly Higher to Standard.

We've just beaten United at home 2-1 and should have been more (missed a penalty and a few sitters). So time to crack on.

16 hours ago, steakfaced said:

With my OL team I settled on a similar structure but had to drop the AML/R to ML/R to get them to even come back on defense. I find this is better, they get more space, can be put on attack as well and get forward and backwards with ease. I always find an AML/R on A is lazy.

My AML/R are on support duty and frequently come back to defend, without giving up much in attack. 

[ElJefe4]

Few screenshots of season 1:

See below the quite noticeable drop off between the first half of the season and the second.

Surprised we only conceded 2 more in the second half actually, although shipping goals regularly in the Champions League probably added to my feeling that we were weak at the back.

The end of the season in particular was rough:

Here are the overall squad stats. Really good numbers for Tadic (Complete Forward, Attack), Ziyech (Attacking Midfielder, Attack) and Fischer (Inverted Winger, Attack). Should add that scored 7 penalties and Ziyech scored a handful of direct FKs. Promes also provided a lot of assists from AMR (Winger, Support). Unfortunately David Neres had his season hampered by a series of injuries and never really hit top form. 

 

[ElJefe4]

Just to add to the above (video was still encoding so couldn't post at same time). When the tactic does click, the football is very nice. Below is one of my favourite goals of the season. At least from the second half of it. Not least because it came in our biggest win, away at Juventus.

https://i.imgur.com/gyo86Bv.mp4

If anyone knows how to embed the above, let me know. The [img] brackets don't work.

Edited November 6, 2020 by ElJefe4

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Oh hey, we've done the business against Juventus too 

Nice build up and goal, that! I've had a few decent ones over the last few seasons but game doesn't let me save them to share, oof.

Did you change anything with your tactic during the 2nd half of the season to deal with those pesky park-the-bus types? I'm contemplating having a second tactic on hand for these sides - same formation, roles, duties and TIs but shifting the mentality from Positive to Attacking (passing should go to slightly lower and tempo to slightly higher with the mentality shift off the top of my head).

[ElJefe4]

1 hour ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Oh hey, we've done the business against Juventus too 

Nice build up and goal, that! I've had a few decent ones over the last few seasons but game doesn't let me save them to share, oof.

Did you change anything with your tactic during the 2nd half of the season to deal with those pesky park-the-bus types? I'm contemplating having a second tactic on hand for these sides - same formation, roles, duties and TIs but shifting the mentality from Positive to Attacking (passing should go to slightly lower and tempo to slightly higher with the mentality shift off the top of my head).

How have you got on in Europe? I was made up to knock them out and even gave myself a pat on the back for a few tactical adjustments to exploit their narrow 4312, but were unceremoniously dumped out by Leipzig in the next round.

Yeah I'm not sure how to save/export them from FM itself. I installed something called screentogif which you can use to record your screen and then, you guessed it, save/upload it as a gif.

About the tactic, I didn't change anything major. I have a bad habit of constantly making small tweaks on a game by game basis. I probably do this too much as I then can't figure out exactly which changes to the tactic are having an impact on what I'm seeing on the pitch. For season 2 I am thinking of reducing the amount of attack duties (currently have 3 of the front 4 on attack) and using more creative roles (i.e. Advanced Playmaker, Mezzala etc) on the MCR/MCL.

I know (or at least think) that the Team Fluidity in FM20 is simply a measure of how many support duties I have, mine is on structured at the moment. I don't actually mind this as I think possession based sides such as Cruyff's Barca, LvG's Ajax or Pep's sides are more structured than people perhaps give them credit for. However, I'm thinking a move towards a more fluid system should make it more difficult for sides to press us and might help me see a little bit more freedom of movement in the final third.

I'm also considering lowering the tempo, which is currently on standard. I like to play wide and stretch the pitch when we have the ball. This is great for isolating full backs and creating room in the half spaces, but can result in fairly big gaps between the players. Coupled with a standard (or higher) tempo, this seems to lead to players rushing their passes slightly and playing lower percentage passes over greater distances in order to avoid dwelling on the ball and allowing the tempo to drop. This is even the case when 'shorter passing' is selected. A lower tempo might allow players to take that extra half a second on the ball and give time for a team mate to drop into space to receive the ball, rather than forcing their pass. Not sure if it's been posted before but the video below really demonstrates how Barca were very wide, but also remained very patient, allowed their team mates time to find space before delivering a pass into them.

Even with the goal in the third clip, other than one first time pass and an injection of pace from Romario, nobody really seems to rush anything that they do. The ease with which they move the ball around and create chances comes more from the intelligent positioning of the players, rather than anyone doing anything at a really high tempo.  

Edited November 6, 2020 by ElJefe4

[NotSoSpecialOne]

45 minutes ago, ElJefe4 said:

How have you got on in Europe? I was made up to knock them out and even gave myself a pat on the back for a few tactical adjustments to exploit their narrow 4312, but were unceremoniously dumped out by Leipzig in the next round.

Yeah I'm not sure how to save/export them from FM itself. I installed something called screentogif which you can use to record your screen and then, you guessed it, save/upload it as a gif.

About the tactic, I didn't change anything major. I have a bad habit of constantly making small tweaks on a game by game basis. I probably do this too much as I then can't figure out exactly which changes to the tactic are having an impact on what I'm seeing on the pitch. For season 2 I am thinking of reducing the amount of attack duties (currently have 3 of the front 4 on attack) and using more creative roles (i.e. Advanced Playmaker, Mezzala etc) on the MCR/MCL.

I know (or at least think) that the Team Fluidity in FM20 is simply a measure of how many support duties I have, mine is on structured at the moment. I don't actually mind this as I think possession based sides such as Cruyff's Barca, LvG's Ajax or Pep's sides are more structured than people perhaps give them credit for. However, I'm thinking a move towards a more fluid system should make it more difficult for sides to press us and might help me see a little bit more freedom of movement in the final third.

I'm also considering lowering the tempo, which is currently on standard. I like to play wide and stretch the pitch when we have the ball. This is great for isolating full backs and creating room in the half spaces, but can result in fairly big gaps between the players. Coupled with a standard (or higher) tempo, this seems to lead to players rushing their passes slightly and playing lower percentage passes over greater distances in order to avoid dwelling on the ball and allowing the tempo to drop. This is even the case when 'shorter passing' is selected. A lower tempo might allow players to take that extra half a second on the ball and give time for a team mate to drop into space to receive the ball, rather than forcing their pass. Not sure if it's been posted before but the video below really demonstrates how Barca were very wide, but also remained very patient, allowed their team mates time to find space before delivering a pass into them.

 

Still one game left in the group stage of this campaign but currently top of the group (containing Man Utd, Juventus and Valencia) - a trip to Old Trafford will determine whether we get the better seed or not. The 7-0 loss to Valencia in the group opener was avenged, beat them 3-0 in the return match.

My Team Fluidity is at Flexible (just the 2 attack duties and 3 defend). Pretty happy with a lot of the movement I'm seeing but I never notice much difference between it and structured.

Agreed on the tempo. Using standard as my preferred upper limit, may switch things up (lower tempo, more direct passing) over the course of the season.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Wrapped up the first full season going Cryuff, could have gone better but also could have gone worse. I mentioned previously that I lost my first choice striker on deadline day? Well the player that stepped up to fill the void performed well, netted 19 goals in the first half of the season and then he was off in January (pesky release fee was met). A replacement was brought in but didn't perform as well. And my second choice striker scored a hattrick in his first league appearance of the season only to then go 17 games without scoring at all - what do you do when this happens and you've got no other options? lol

We won the league for the third straight season, not really a challenge with Ajax is it? I rotated quite heavily to focus on Europe so it probably shouldn't have been this close though. 

Speaking of Europe? How did it go? Well after losing the opening group match against Valencia at the Mestalla 7-0.... 

They battered us and it probably shouldn't have gone to penalties, but a nice accomplishment and oh so close. With our tough group stage (Man Utd, Juventus and Valencia) to beating the likes of PSG and Real Madrid in the knockout rounds I never expected to get this far.

Player stats. Thiago Almada put in work in the AM(At) position.

 

And finally, the tactic ended up.

I did briefly flirt with having the AMC slot as a SS again in the second half, but after a few matches ended up going back to AM(At). Just find it holds the shape better for passing triangles, which is ideal in the build up phase. I also wanted to try the F9 out again, because Lazaro has the makings of a really good F9. But I opted against it, because we were already struggling for goals - none of my wide players occupying the IW roles are strong (or even decent) finishers and it definitely showed over the course of the season. 

Low Crosses is only there as a squad specific consideration; the central attacking midfielders and strikers in the squad are quite short and lacking in aerial presence so it was a necessity.

[ElJefe4]

On 08/11/2020 at 06:43, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Wrapped up the first full season going Cryuff, could have gone better but also could have gone worse. I mentioned previously that I lost my first choice striker on deadline day? Well the player that stepped up to fill the void performed well, netted 19 goals in the first half of the season and then he was off in January (pesky release fee was met). A replacement was brought in but didn't perform as well. And my second choice striker scored a hattrick in his first league appearance of the season only to then go 17 games without scoring at all - what do you do when this happens and you've got no other options? lol

We won the league for the third straight season, not really a challenge with Ajax is it? I rotated quite heavily to focus on Europe so it probably shouldn't have been this close though. 

Speaking of Europe? How did it go? Well after losing the opening group match against Valencia at the Mestalla 7-0.... 

They battered us and it probably shouldn't have gone to penalties, but a nice accomplishment and oh so close. With our tough group stage (Man Utd, Juventus and Valencia) to beating the likes of PSG and Real Madrid in the knockout rounds I never expected to get this far.

Player stats. Thiago Almada put in work in the AM(At) position.

 

And finally, the tactic ended up.

I did briefly flirt with having the AMC slot as a SS again in the second half, but after a few matches ended up going back to AM(At). Just find it holds the shape better for passing triangles, which is ideal in the build up phase. I also wanted to try the F9 out again, because Lazaro has the makings of a really good F9. But I opted against it, because we were already struggling for goals - none of my wide players occupying the IW roles are strong (or even decent) finishers and it definitely showed over the course of the season. 

Low Crosses is only there as a squad specific consideration; the central attacking midfielders and strikers in the squad are quite short and lacking in aerial presence so it was a necessity.

Good stuff! Your team seems to have changed quite a bit already, is that due to bigger sides coming in for the likes of Neres and Promes or have you just chosen to sell to raise funds?

I have such high hopes for Gravenberch, how are him and Unuvar getting on? It's a shame Schuurs' PA isn't a bit higher. There's shades of Koeman about him with his physicality and powerful long-range free kicks.

Gutted for you with the Champions League final, would have been some achievement that! Hopefully next season.

[ElJefe4]

Total Football! 

First league game of season 2 and we'll do well to score a better team goal than this. Veltman (DCL, #13) actually passed back to Onana so technically all 11 players played a part in the move.

Look at Tadic's off the ball movement (#9). He played up top last season and probably will for most of this season as well, but injuries have meant that he's started the season playing off Traore in the AMC role. He drifts over to the right hand side to support Antony and van de Beek, finds space at the tip of the diamond a few seconds later, and then a few seconds after that is in position for an open goal if Fischer chose to square it. I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't, just for how aesthetically pleasing the goal would have been, but it was still pretty special.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by ElJefe4

[NotSoSpecialOne]

24 minutes ago, ElJefe4 said:

Good stuff! Your team seems to have changed quite a bit already, is that due to bigger sides coming in for the likes of Neres and Promes or have you just chosen to sell to raise funds?

I have such high hopes for Gravenberch, how are him and Unuvar getting on? It's a shame Schuurs' PA isn't a bit higher. There's shades of Koeman about him with his physicality and powerful long-range free kicks.

Gutted for you with the Champions League final, would have been some achievement that! Hopefully next season.

Big clubs came in for quite a few and I figured it was better to sell and reinvest than run the risk of an upset squad - Onana put in a transfer request so that'll be another gone. I carelessly sold Unuvar to St Pauli for under a million; he moved to Norwich this season for 11.5m whoops. Gravenbach has come on nicely, could be better defensively in the context of this system but oh well. He gets the nod for the Netherlands and van der Beek doesn't 

Gonna keep cracking on with this for another season. Few tweaks for the upcoming season: Giving the F9 - SS combo another shot. I've changed the wide CBs from BPD to regular CBs, the idea here being they'll utilise the safer but more creative options centrally (Libero & HB). Also taken Hold Position off the Libero so he's free to get a bit more involved.

49 minutes ago, ElJefe4 said:

Total Football! 

First league game of season 2 and we'll do well to score a better team goal than this. Veltman (DCL, #13) actually passed back to Onana so technically all 11 players played a part in the move.

Look at Tadic's off the ball movement (#9). He played up top last season and probably will for most of this season as well, but injuries have meant that he's started the season playing off Traore in the AMC role. He drifts over to the right hand side to support Antony and van de Beek, finds space at the tip of the diamond a few seconds later, and then a few seconds after that is in position for an open goal if Fischer chose to square it. I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't, just for how aesthetically pleasing the goal would have been, but it was still pretty special.

 

Nice passage of play. I'm envious that you still have Antony! That's who scored the 19 goals last season for me before his release clause was met in January. Tidy player.

[ElJefe4]

1 hour ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Big clubs came in for quite a few and I figured it was better to sell and reinvest than run the risk of an upset squad - Onana put in a transfer request so that'll be another gone. I carelessly sold Unuvar to St Pauli for under a million; he moved to Norwich this season for 11.5m whoops. Gravenbach has come on nicely, could be better defensively in the context of this system but oh well. He gets the nod for the Netherlands and van der Beek doesn't 

Gonna keep cracking on with this for another season. Few tweaks for the upcoming season: Giving the F9 - SS combo another shot. I've changed the wide CBs from BPD to regular CBs, the idea here being they'll utilise the safer but more creative options centrally (Libero & HB). Also taken Hold Position off the Libero so he's free to get a bit more involved.

Nice passage of play. I'm envious that you still have Antony! That's who scored the 19 goals last season for me before his release clause was met in January. Tidy player.

Interesting shout on going back to F9/SS. I'm currently using a CF (S) and AM (A) combo. As good as Ziyech was, a lot of his best moments seemed to be individual brilliance rather than anything to do with the system. Tadic seems a better fit for the style of play in terms of his off the ball movement and willingness to run beyond the last man. Lassina Traore is proving a useful option as a Complete Forward in the early part of the season. Going with Support rather than Attack for the CF means he will drop off a bit more and create space for Tadic, but he also has the 'Beats Offside Trap' trait, so he provides a threat in behind as well.

I've also considered that swap to normal CBs in the wide positions in order to simplify their role slightly and avoid them taking on too much responsibility/risk. Let me know how that goes!

[3LionsFM]

With improved marking and dealing with long balls over the top promised in FM21 hopefully the issues with being overloaded on the wings and being caught by long balls will help make the 343 Diamond more viable. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by 3LionsFM

[NotSoSpecialOne]

On 10/11/2020 at 09:23, ElJefe4 said:

Interesting shout on going back to F9/SS. I'm currently using a CF (S) and AM (A) combo. As good as Ziyech was, a lot of his best moments seemed to be individual brilliance rather than anything to do with the system. Tadic seems a better fit for the style of play in terms of his off the ball movement and willingness to run beyond the last man. Lassina Traore is proving a useful option as a Complete Forward in the early part of the season. Going with Support rather than Attack for the CF means he will drop off a bit more and create space for Tadic, but he also has the 'Beats Offside Trap' trait, so he provides a threat in behind as well.

I've also considered that swap to normal CBs in the wide positions in order to simplify their role slightly and avoid them taking on too much responsibility/risk. Let me know how that goes!

I played until October and then let the Ass Man do the rest of the season. Finished third in the league, quite a ways behind AZ and out in the group stage of the UCL. How the mighty have fallen 

Team goals over all dropped quite a bit. 54 in the league compared to 66 last season. In terms of production, I don't think the SS/F9 combo was that bad and mostly scored the same as the AM/CF combo previously but goals dried up elsewhere. I'm thinking that playing more narrowly and with one or more IF on the flanks would have helped but IFs won't defend in the same way as an IW does so maybe a width issue.

Defensively we weren't that bad, in the league (we got rumbled a bit in the UCL). 7 goals more goals conceded in the league over the last season. The switch to normal CBs from BPD seemed fine - the issue was three pronged I think. 1) Blind's pace and acceleration are gone now and when he played in the unchained Libero position, this got exposed repeatedly. 2) Schurrs and Pierie picked up the Tries To Play Out Of Trouble trait. Thanks Blind. I'm sure a couple of goals resulted from this. 3) Onana departing. His under study Acosta still has some ways to go. 

This is where I hang my hat up on the 3-4-3 diamond, for now. There are some (on paper at least) match engine changes that look beneficial coming in 21 so I may revisit it then. And I'll be following along regardless.

[ElJefe4]

On 11/11/2020 at 06:20, NotSoSpecialOne said:

I played until October and then let the Ass Man do the rest of the season. Finished third in the league, quite a ways behind AZ and out in the group stage of the UCL. How the mighty have fallen 

Team goals over all dropped quite a bit. 54 in the league compared to 66 last season. In terms of production, I don't think the SS/F9 combo was that bad and mostly scored the same as the AM/CF combo previously but goals dried up elsewhere. I'm thinking that playing more narrowly and with one or more IF on the flanks would have helped but IFs won't defend in the same way as an IW does so maybe a width issue.

Defensively we weren't that bad, in the league (we got rumbled a bit in the UCL). 7 goals more goals conceded in the league over the last season. The switch to normal CBs from BPD seemed fine - the issue was three pronged I think. 1) Blind's pace and acceleration are gone now and when he played in the unchained Libero position, this got exposed repeatedly. 2) Schurrs and Pierie picked up the Tries To Play Out Of Trouble trait. Thanks Blind. I'm sure a couple of goals resulted from this. 3) Onana departing. His under study Acosta still has some ways to go. 

This is where I hang my hat up on the 3-4-3 diamond, for now. There are some (on paper at least) match engine changes that look beneficial coming in 21 so I may revisit it then. And I'll be following along regardless.

Ah that's rough. I got knocked out in the Champions League group stages this season too, Real Madrid, PSG and Inter was a tough draw. We managed to finish 3rd so its all systems go for a tilt at the Europa League. We still managed to dominate possession most of the time, but better quality teams are ruthless in exploiting the weaknesses in the back 3. I'm considering developing a 433 system to utilise against 1) better quality opposition in Europe and 2) decent domestic teams who use wingers in the AMR/AML slot and then using the 343 against the rest.

Currently at the winter break of season 2. Tactic has slightly changed from last season, will do an update soon. Scoring a bit less this season (around 2.2 gpg opposed to 2.6gpg last season), but the defence has been much better, only conceded 4 in 19 so far.

Shame that you're not continuing with the 343 for FM20, look forward to working on it together in FM21 though!