Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Great to see this still going!

Haven't had too much game-time this year but the new match engine is opening up some new twists on old ideas..

The legacy lives on..
 

Possession, tackling and creating chances..

..and putting them away!

Edited June 1, 2018 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Park]

Cool to see you post, @Ö-zil. I've read your threads multiple times - the way you put ideas into practice and also explain concepts such as team shape is great. 

Have you tried a Libero on this version?

[ericstpeter]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Great to see this still going!

Haven't had too much game-time this year but the new match engine is opening up some new twists on old ideas..

The legacy lives on..
 

Possession, tackling and creating chances..

..and putting them away!

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Love to see you back posting! The new formation is very interesting. Care to share your TI's, PI's, Mentality, and Structure?

[Joey Numbaz]

I would pay money to see Costa Rica in a 5-3 game hahaha. Love that formation.

[Joey Numbaz]

I almost think the new Ozil formation has to be control or higher. I think it has to pressure up top with at least a medium-high if not high block, right? Attacking would add a default offside trap.

The mentality has to be very fluid just because Ajax and the goal of if the initial tactic 11 pages ago ...

Just guesses, how did I do?

[Jean0987654321]

19 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Great to see this still going!

Haven't had too much game-time this year but the new match engine is opening up some new twists on old ideas..

The legacy lives on..
 

Possession, tackling and creating chances..

..and putting them away!

HES BAAACK

[FlairRA]

1 hour ago, Jean0987654321 said:

HES BAAACK

Seconded! 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

21 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

I almost think the new Ozil formation has to be control or higher. I think it has to pressure up top with at least a medium-high if not high block, right? Attacking would add a default offside trap.

The mentality has to be very fluid just because Ajax and the goal of if the initial tactic 11 pages ago ...

Just guesses, how did I do?

Spot on. It's Control & Very Fluid. Just about exactly the same play style as the Barcelona thread last year, which was just an evolution of this system. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Joey Numbaz]

Do you ever drop the wingers back a strata or two, to close out a match or against a team with a strong wide attack?

I am not sure if with this setup it’s more defensive to keep the pressure on, or if it sometimes needs to be dialed back a little bit.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

Do you ever drop the winger back a strata, to close out a match or against a team with a strong wide attack?I am not sure if with this setup it’s more 

I'd need to play around with the shape to ensure the striker doesn't get isolated but it could work, yes.

Having forwards making runs in behind the defence is crucial to the possession-game otherwise it's just passing for the sake of passing.

One of my favourite systems this year is 3-1-4-2, which might offer a bit more balance but that's another thread for another time! 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Joey Numbaz]

Thanks for the replies. You are fast! I hit submit by mistake, corrected it and you had already replied!

[larrie]

4 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Spot on. It's Control & Very Fluid. Just about exactly the same play style as the Barcelona thread last year, which was just an evolution of this system. 

Do you also play with Ajax in fm2018?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

17 hours ago, larrie said:

Do you also play with Ajax in fm2018?

Must be the first FM in years & years I haven't gone straight to Ajax. This year I have gone for a bunch of 1-2 season saves with ready-made squads where I can try different things tactically and experiment with the match engine. So far, I've gone Napoli, Man City, Belgium and - currently - Liverpool.

[larrie]

do you give pi to players in the last tactic?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 1 June 2018 at 12:42, Park said:

Cool to see you post, @Ö-zil. I've read your threads multiple times - the way you put ideas into practice and also explain concepts such as team shape is great. 

Have you tried a Libero on this version?

Apologies, missed this question.

The answer is actually no. I've never seen the benefit of the role. I think it's a romantic idea but the drawback of playing the opposition attack onside when in-behind your defence simply isn't worth it.

Coincidentally, I noticed Cleon's started a new thread about the role so I'll be following that with interest to see if I can understand how he implements it.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

38 minutes ago, larrie said:

do you give pi to players in the last tactic?

Very few. Obviously the goalkeeper distribution is set depending on the opposition. I think the striker roams from position. Maybe it.

[Hairyflump]

Does this tactic still work in fm18? Thinking of using it to recover the times of Swansealona!

[FlairRA]

35 minutes ago, Hairyflump said:

Does this tactic still work in fm18? Thinking of using it to recover the times of Swansealona!

As long as your players have the attributes for it, then this tactic should still be working in FM50. It's simply about giving players the freedom to play and high pressing, strategies that have at least been in place since the 1970s and before! 

[Jean0987654321]

13 hours ago, FlairRA said:

As long as your players have the attributes for it, then this tactic should still be working in FM50. It's simply about giving players the freedom to play and high pressing, strategies that have at least been in place since the 1970s and before! 

I don't know about FM50. The ME will surely be different by then

Edited June 4, 2018 by Jean0987654321

[renanzaraa]

On 05/05/2016 at 15:24, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Individual Training

Choose individual training programs which effect a wide range of attributes. I generally use Ball Playing Defender, Deep-Lying Playmaker, Roaming Playmaker, Complete Wing-Back, and Complete Forward.

Despite not using these roles on the field, the end product of these training programs is a well-rounded player.

All right, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, I'm a huge fan and I need to ask you some things...

First of all: For the wingbacks you use the COMPLETE WING-BACK; for defenders BALL PLAYING DEFENDER; for the central midfields ROAMING PLAYMAKER and for the forward the COMPLETE FORWARD. What about your young players that play as: Defensive Midfield, Atacking Midfield and your Wingers? What role do you would use for than?

I need to explain: I'm using that tip in one of my save and it's looking fantastic, but, I play in a 4-2-3-1. In the "2" I use a player with defensive function, that's why I'm asking. The same thing in the "3", that I play with an Advanced Playmaker; a Winger and a Inside Forward.

At this moment (without your knowledge) I'm training my youngster like this: Defensives Midfields - DEFENSIVE MIDFIELD; Atacking Midfields - ROAMING PLAYMAKER ; Wingers - INSIDE FORWARD

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, and should be great if you help me!

Thanks for this great topic and your attention.

Sorry for my english, I'm sure that I understand and talk better than I write. Cheers from Brazil!!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

56 minutes ago, renanzaraa said:

All right, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, I'm a huge fan and I need to ask you some things...

First of all: For the wingbacks you use the COMPLETE WING-BACK; for defenders BALL PLAYING DEFENDER; for the central midfields ROAMING PLAYMAKER and for the forward the COMPLETE FORWARD. What about your young players that play as: Defensive Midfield, Atacking Midfield and your Wingers? What role do you would use for than?

I need to explain: I'm using that tip in one of my save and it's looking fantastic, but, I play in a 4-2-3-1. In the "2" I use a player with defensive function, that's why I'm asking. The same thing in the "3", that I play with an Advanced Playmaker; a Winger and a Inside Forward.

At this moment (without your knowledge) I'm training my youngster like this: Defensives Midfields - DEFENSIVE MIDFIELD; Atacking Midfields - ROAMING PLAYMAKER ; Wingers - INSIDE FORWARD

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, and should be great if you help me!

Thanks for this great topic and your attention.

Sorry for my english, I'm sure that I understand and talk better than I write. Cheers from Brazil!!

Your English is better than my Portuguese!  

As a massive sweeping generalisation, I use the broadest Individual Training available.

• Goalkeeper trained as Sweeper Keeper
• Centre Backs trained as Ball Playing Defenders
• Wingbacks trained as Complete Wingbacks
• Holding midfielders trained as Deep Lying Playmakers (or Ball Playing Defenders, if I want to play a Half Back)
• Central midfielders and attacking midfielders trained as Roaming Playmakers.
• Wingers trained as Defensive Wingers
• Inside Forwards and Attackers trained as Complete Forwards

The main thing is I want to develop the ability to play in a technical, passing system and the other is I want their work rate and stamina to be able to press.

Lately I have been using Fitness as my team training over the top, to some success.

I also typically train A LOT of players to play in other positions so I can play flexible tactical systems and one player can cover 2-3 positions in the case of injuries.

[Jean0987654321]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Your English is better than my Portuguese!  

As a massive sweeping generalisation, I use the broadest Individual Training available.

• Goalkeeper trained as Sweeper Keeper
• Centre Backs trained as Ball Playing Defenders
• Wingbacks trained as Complete Wingbacks
• Holding midfielders trained as Deep Lying Playmakers (or Ball Playing Defenders, if I want to play a Half Back)
• Central midfielders and attacking midfielders trained as Roaming Playmakers.
• Wingers trained as Defensive Wingers
• Inside Forwards and Attackers trained as Complete Forwards

The main thing is I want to develop the ability to play in a technical, passing system and the other is I want their work rate and stamina to be able to press.

Lately I have been using Fitness as my team training over the top, to some success.

I also typically train A LOT of players to play in other positions so I can play flexible tactical systems and one player can cover 2-3 positions in the case of injuries.

This is me as well

When did you take my training strategy?

 

 

I'm still messing about with my Quique Setien tactic which is similar to this and this is the kind of training I give my players

[BadAss88]

I find the 'Segundo Volante' for holding midfielders more complete! Same for wingers, there I use 'Complete wingback'.. otherwise I use the same settings as you!

[spacewe]

great tactics <3

 

my baby

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

12 hours ago, spacewe said:

great tactics <3

 

my baby

What a team! 

[spacewe]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

What a team! 

If u wanna see real magic u need elite players.

Tactic didnt work properly with "decent" players. I had issues against top teams in CL.

season 2023/24

 

sry for my poor engrish :>

361.fmf

[ericstpeter]

I've followed this post (like many) and love @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 's stuff. I've played around with the original formation a bunch and found a new take that is really working for me. I love the Cruyff Diamond and think this really is a great representation for FM18.

It very much holds the Diamond and shifts nicely from a 3-6-1 type shape in defense and transition to a 3-3-4 in attack.

PIs:

Everyone with the exception of the middle CD is set to "Mark Tighter"

SK S = Distributes to CD

Off Center CD's = Fewer Risky Passes

AM A = Move Into Channels, Hold Up Ball

Both IF A = Stay Wider

F9 S = Roam from Position

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by ericstpeter

[Jean0987654321]

10 hours ago, ericstpeter said:

I've followed this post (like many) and love @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 's stuff. I've played around with the original formation a bunch and found a new take that is really working for me. I love the Cruyff Diamond and think this really is a great representation for FM18.

It very much holds the Diamond and shifts nicely from a 3-6-1 type shape in defense and transition to a 3-3-4 in attack.

PIs:

Everyone with the exception of the middle CD is set to "Mark Tighter"

SK S = Distributes to CD

Off Center CD's = Fewer Risky Passes

AM A = Move Into Channels, Hold Up Ball

Both IF A = Stay Wider

F9 S = Roam from Position

 

Good God. TWO IFs on attack? That's asking for trouble but if it works, then I can't complain

[ericstpeter]

30 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Good God. TWO IFs on attack? That's asking for trouble but if it works, then I can't complain

🤷‍♂️

[Jean0987654321]

4 hours ago, ericstpeter said:

🤷‍♂️

what is that?

[ericstpeter]

10 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

what is that?

Shrugging emoji

[Jean0987654321]

9 hours ago, ericstpeter said:

Shrugging emoji

Ahh...ok

[spacewe]

<3

made some tweaks:

move dlp from dmc spot to mc

lower tempo > medium

medium passing > short

but still weak against ai crosses.

[Pass and Move]

I've also been experimenting a touch with this tactic in FM18. I had tried it more or less out of the (original) box in some past seasons with decent results but have started giving it a serious run this preseason, with some experiments/tweaking as I see how my team plays.

My largest adjustment has been changing the duty of the AM player; I found that he was getting too far forward too quickly in the build up and have changed to AM(S) with Get Further Forward PI. With two rotation options who have the Comes Deep PPM, the AM(A) worked a bit better.  I think this is may be an interesting option to employ in this set-up -- the PPM acting as a counterweight to the role/PI to strike a better balance in the AM's positioning.  I've also been using WM(A) rather than W(A) for a lot of my wide players, as I don't always like the "runs wide with ball" PI, but I haven't noticed much of a difference. Having a lot of success so far, but it's early days, and it could be just a function of my squad. 

Future updates to (hopefully) follow 

[Granatissimo90]

how to download?

Edited August 15, 2018 by Granatissimo90

[zlatanera]

@granatissimo He doesn't do download links. You can get everything you need by reading the opening post, you just have to decide your own set piece routines.

[BMNJohn]

Bumping this thread. As of FM18, there's a role in particular that seem ideal for the 3-4-3 Diamond: the Carrilero. However, when using it, I never found any significant difference between it and say, the CM(S) for example. Alas, it seems ideal on paper only, as Cleon claims that the Carrilero was designed to work only when there are no wingers on the pitch, which is not how the 3-4-3 Diamond works. Considering  the role is hardly any different from CM(S) in this instance, I guess I'll focus my attention on trying other midfield roles. As I've said months ago a page or two earlier in this thread, BBM works well and "Roam From Position" doesn't mean, at least in their case, "roaming everywhere on the pitch"; although their tendency to stay close to the AMC strata is something that requires attention.

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by BMNJohn

[denen123]

23 hours ago, BMNJohn said:

Bumping this thread. As of FM18, there's a role in particular that seem ideal for the 3-4-3 Diamond: the Carrilero. However, when using it, I never found any significant difference between it and say, the CM(S) for example. Alas, it seems ideal on paper only, as Cleon claims that the Carrilero was designed to work only when there are no wingers on the pitch, which is not how the 3-4-3 Diamond works. Considering  the role is hardly any different from CM(S) in this instance, I guess I'll focus my attention on trying other midfield roles. As I've said months ago a page or two earlier in this thread, BBM works well and "Roam From Position" doesn't mean, at least in their case, "roaming everywhere on the pitch"; although their tendency to stay close to the AMC strata is something that requires attention.

 

Personally, the car role should be able to work if you see it more as space vacated to be covered than just the idea of the role itself(central wingers). A winger on attack(am strata) will be more focused on attack & assume a higher position on the pitch. Say he looses the ball, it'll take a longer distance to cover(can be subjective to certain tactics) but with a Car the effect is nullified to an extent as he'll curtail attack till the wingbacks assume proper defence position.

Hope I make little sense despite my English.

[denen123]

Also see the case of a Raumdeteur of no full back systems. Or even an AP on the wings that'll vacate space completely. Car should be able to work even when the AMR\L strata is filled. If the winger doesn't move or assume the high positions then the part of his work(Car) that covers the defensive responsibility out wide can be nullified in such case and he'll just ssume the central position in such instances (becomes more just B2B in this case).

[vinnie2k16]

Anyone gave this a shot in FM19 yet ? 

I love the philosophy behind this tactic

[Spam_Valley]

On 07/11/2018 at 11:30, vinnie2k16 said:

Anyone gave this a shot in FM19 yet ? 

I love the philosophy behind this tactic

Tried to but found it quite difficult to replicate. Any help from the gurus in this thread would be appreciated. Absolute total football in last years version was great to watch - in 2D

[zlatanera]

@vinnie2k16 @Spam_Valley I've decided to wean myself off his tactics, but if you were going to recreate it in FM19 I'd probably use the shape he posted early on Page 11 from FM18 with Belgium. it used most of the same instructions as the FM18 one presumably, so play around with them to see what fits, then with the changes to tactics in FM19 I'd set transition instructions to "Counter-Press" and "Counter". No idea what would get the right results in terms of attacking and defending width though.

Bear in mind you need the right sort of players for it though - no attempting it with FC United then wondering why it doesn't work. 

I've just mocked up an interpretation going on the fact he said the FM18 one used the Barcelona thread's instructions, but its in spoilers as its completely untested and will remain that way - I'm not a pro, this is just a guess.

[alvaan]

This is by far my favorite thread on the entire forum. It stands the tide of time, and is relevant even on FM19. On that note, I would like to share my FM19 take on the Cruyff 343, but all thanks goes to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!!

This is how it looks:; http://prntscr.com/lgszkq

The main differences I have here is to utilize the carrilero, have tight marking on all players except the covering CD, and the CF is now on attack. Here I am using proper wingers, so no inside forwards/inverted winger types, and I have also either retrained or sold any wide players who were cutting in and shooting from distance. 

 

You can find the download link here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/p1lkkrsp67d0ktr/3-4-3_Cruyff_Tiki_Taka_v5.fmf/file

Any suggestions for improvements would be welcome!

 

 

[gpassosbh]

On 10/11/2018 at 20:12, alvaan said:

This is by far my favorite thread on the entire forum. It stands the tide of time, and is relevant even on FM19. On that note, I would like to share my FM19 take on the Cruyff 343, but all thanks goes to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!!

This is how it looks:; http://prntscr.com/lgszkq

The main differences I have here is to utilize the carrilero, have tight marking on all players except the covering CD, and the CF is now on attack. Here I am using proper wingers, so no inside forwards/inverted winger types, and I have also either retrained or sold any wide players who were cutting in and shooting from distance. 

 

You can find the download link here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/p1lkkrsp67d0ktr/3-4-3_Cruyff_Tiki_Taka_v5.fmf/file

Any suggestions for improvements would be welcome!

 

 

Hello.. Can you post your results so far using this formation??

[alvaan]

On 12/11/2018 at 00:07, gpassosbh said:

Hello.. Can you post your results so far using this formation??

I am currently rebuilding the Ajax squad with the youth talents at the club, so results so far hasn't been great. We are drawing far too many games, and after 24 games, we got a 12-9-3 record. This is also probably due to me having to tinker with the tactic for some time, and also playing players who don't really fit the Cruyff build in there, so I am slightly optimistic for the future. 

Some results: http://prntscr.com/lh6q2r

Player stats: http://prntscr.com/lh6qx8

Team stats: http://prntscr.com/lh6r4i

If you try it out, and have suggestions on improvements, I'd love to hear.  

 

Edit: I have more or less given up for now after x amount of changes, so anyone here got something working on FM19 I am all ears

Edited November 13, 2018 by alvaan

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

An enjoyable podcast about the great Ajax teams on These Football Times 

[BMNJohn]

On 12/11/2018 at 04:01, alvaan said:

Edit: I have more or less given up for now after x amount of changes, so anyone here got something working on FM19 I am all ears

I can't say that I have something working since I'm a bit disgruntled with FM19 for various reasons, but if you have the right players you can very well use the WB(A) roles on either wings and a DLP(S) behind the two CMs. And when I say "the right players", I mean two WBs that are offensively good and like to run a lot, fast and hard: they don't even need to be defensively good. It's easier to get away with a Support role in the DM slot since you have three CBs and two CMs. Also, his Support duty raises his mentality so he's no there just to recycle possession and will attempt more difficult passes without being a defensive liability or wasting the ball too often. The decision with WBs vs. WMs or outright AML/R is more about defensive positioning: WBs will form a line with their CBs, and you have the small diamond on their own in the midfield. That, or you have WMs leaving aches of space behind them and in the channels. It's not even like old Juve with Pirlo where the team would defend with a 5-4-1 flat instead of sticking with the diamond: you don't really have that choice in FM. You gotta decide which one you want.

The tougher cookie is actually making the ST relevant in the system. I haven't found a striker role that added something to the team: there's already 4 possible passers behind him (the midfield diamond), three other possible goalscorers (AMC and wing players), and he's not in a real partnership like if you were playing with two strikers upfront. The ST ends up being an additional body in a really crowded space, so even when the team absolutely slays he's not really useful. At least he presses.

Those are only ideas, not anything concrete.

Edited April 29, 2019 by BMNJohn

[Brasmuss]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I would love to see your take on this tactic again in FM19, with all the new options available. How would you circumvent the lack of the "Very Fluid" option in this version of the game?

Also, I could only imagine that you have some new motivation to do this, considering the Ajax form recently

Edited May 15, 2019 by Brasmuss

[BMNJohn]

Unfortunately I'm not Ajax here; I simply got hit by a really bad case of FM. I happen to be Arsenal, with which I play friendlies to make tactics as playing with a top EPL team isn't really entertaining. At least it shows some promise.

Edited May 17, 2019 by BMNJohn

[BMNJohn]

In the end it's not so different from what I did for... FM18 a few pages (aka years) ago? Focusing on space and passing and playing rather quickly.

Wide CBs and DM: Close down less.
WM(S): Dribble More and Get Further Forward.
BBMs: Close Down More.
AMC: Move Into Channels, Roam From Position.
GK: Pass It Shorter.

The system is very top heavy, therefore focusing on creating space is absolutely critical to avoid clutters. As such, I'm not adverse to having parts of my diamond roam from position and as I've probably mentioned a while ago, roaming from positions doesn't turn CMs into Trequartistas either. Support duty for the wingers allows them to make runs from deep rather than being glued to the opposition's defensive line. I want a certain amount of freedom from them in the way they run with the ball, so the Winger and Inverted Winger roles are out.

I also prefer an Attack duty for my striker: it stretches the team upwards and opens up space as well as allowing to catch defenders napping. I also find that CFs on Support don't make a lot of forward runs (barring any Traits/PPMs they might have). Usually you'd want the run to trigger the pass; with a CF(S), I find that too often the pass triggers the run... when there's a run at all! F9 or DLPs serve little purpose for me: there's more than enough midfielders but only one striker, no need for the striker to keep dropping deep and be in the same zone as the AP and CMs. He's still a CF because I don't necessarily want a one trick pony that won't consider a pass to an open teammate, but I'd rather have him focus on his goalscoring work.

Obviously Defend Wider due to the shape, and I have wide CBs close down less since in FM, defenders cannot help but keep.  Forgetting. About. The. Far. Post. The central CB can still close down as he wishes to pick up hoofs in mid-air. Dribbling CBs don't really get closed down too quickly in FM, so you can potentially ask them to Dribble More (beware lost balls!). I tried a HB instead of a DLP(D) thinking that HB standing a bit further back would help defensively; the results weren't clear cut at all, so the DLP(D) gets to stay. Asking the BBMs to tried Stay Wider was a defensive catastrophe in the half-spaces, and the Carrilero role doesn't seem to be designed to be too useful in that system (link to the discussion below); I'd rather consider a CM(S) as an alternative.

Defensively speaking, this setup is more focused on somewhat preventing the opposition from linking good passes and shots rather than trying to get the ball back as soon as possible. I tried to compensate for the rather inherent leakiness of the system by picking and choosing who closes down and who doesn't. I hope I've done a decent job at preventing on-target shots and being caught on the break... although if you're up against a striker as fast as Mbappé, perhaps it would be wiser to switch things up...

Anyway, since I'm not playing FM19 as much as I used to play previous versions I cannot really vouch for long term effectiveness. As usual, everything is up to discussions and suggestions are welcome.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by BMNJohn