Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Jambo98

Creating a footballing DNA - Athletic Club

Recommended Posts

Background / Preamble/Ramble

So, there are a couple of these threads active on the forum already at the moment, and i was very hesitant to post another but in the end I decide - "Why not" - The worst that can happen is its overkill and no one posts and it just drops. Everyone has a slightly different approach to the game, so if people can take something from this then it's worth a write up :) It is likely not going to have the depth of knowledge of Cleon or rashidi's similar threads but there is enough variation in the subject that i don't see a downside to another discussion. I expect this to cover both Youth development and Tactics in some detail, as well as touching on some other topics.

We talk a fair bit on here about managers needing to decide "how they want to play". One of the common problems which pops up are tactics which are thrown together without a real purpose. Just a set of roles and instructions which seem reasonably ok, but no real underlying approach to the game of football. One of the great things about Football is that there are so many different ways to approach the game, and over history no one approach has become the "uniform" way to succeed. From counter attacking, to tiki-taka, from high press to organised defence. They all have succeeded somewhere and failed somewhere over recent years. This is great for us as FM managers - we can pick the one that we like and we have a chance to make it work.

However increasingly around Europe, and the world, we are seeing clubs look to take this principle of "an underlying philosophy" to the next level. No longer is it just about identifying that your team plays in a certain way, but its about the entire football club (or national setup) being built and structured to support a single vision of the game.

We saw lots of talk about it after Germany's world cup win - The way in which German football overall re-invented itself. The Spanish did it before then, with the emergence of passing/possession football through Spain. Then of course, there is England's more recent attempts in the light of the world cup 2014 debacle.

At club level, Bayern are of course a recent and well known example. Winning the treble but deciding to change not only the manager (aided by his retirement from football) but the entire club. An astounding decision in some ways, but taken against the backdrop of realisation that for prolonged success, you need to build a football club, not a football team. Van Gaal coming into Man Utd has some hallmarks of it - His ability to get an entire club and squad working in the same way was part of his appeal (not working so well thus far.....). Even my own much more humble side, Hearts, have taken this modern approach to coaching, management and tactical approach throughout the club and its youth levels.

Applying it to Football Manager and picking a club

So with that in mind, I thought i would start a save and have a real go at taking a club and creating a footballing DNA for them - A clear blueprint that runs through all aspects of the club and does not waiver. Through doing so, hopefully i can help discuss and maybe even inform (Standard disclaimer - I am not a guru or genius, just a guy who watches a lot of football, reads a lot and plays FM a helluva lot).

Next up i had to select a club.

In theory, you can do this with any club. However clearly to do with Falkirk is going to be much much harder, and much much more long term, than to do it with Fiorentina. I have taken a somewhat easier route by selecting a reasonably big club:

Athletic Club (commonly known as Athletic Bilbao) are pretty well known around these forums. The Basque novelty, combined with the spike in interest brought on by Bielsa a couple of years back, means they have featured in many a thread here. I chose them for a few reasons:

  • The Basque only signings policy adds a great dimension
  • They have among the best youth setup's in the game
  • They play in a very difficult league
  • Have some very interesting and exciting young players already (Munian, Laporte, Unai Gomez)
  • The squad fits reasonably well around my tactical approach, which i intend to create our DNA from
  • I had a meltdown save with them on FM14 which drove me insane and probably eventually led to me changing how i played this game.

What are the ingredients to create a DNA?

There could be a huge amount of depth to this, but the main chunks i will split this into are:

  1. Tactical identity and approach
  2. Player recruitment approach
  3. Staff / background team approach
  4. Youth Development approach
  5. Coaching / Training approach

The Principles

So to start to build a DNA, you need a set of principles you will adhere to. These have to be very much your own, but all with an aim towards the ultimate goal, which is sustained success on the field. I have split my principles into 3 categories and kept them to around 10 (which is already towards the top end of how many we need.

Tactical Principles:

  • We will play attacking football which focuses on high energy, pressing, quick movement, possession and above all teamwork.
  • When we have the ball, we will use technically proficient players to create varied attacks and mixed focal points without risking possession unnecessarily.
  • When we do not have the ball, we will operate as a team to press and win the ball back
  • We will impose ourselves on our opponents first and foremost and be reactive only when strictly necessary. Let our opponents be the ones to react to us.

Player Development Principles:

  • Youth Development will be a major focus of the club, although this will not prevent us from using the transfer market entirely
  • Our young players will be taught to be proficient in the basics of the game at the youngest possible age
  • We will imprint our tactical approach on our players and ensure they are equipped to support this philosophy from a young age
  • Young players will be given first team football as soon as they are deemed ready.

Other Principles:

  • We will challenge for trophies on a regular basis. We do not exist to be a feeder club or make up the numbers.
  • We recognised the value which experience can bring, despite being youth focussed we will not discard experienced players entirely.
  • We will not sacrifice our footballing philosophy or tactical approach to the game in exchange for short term success.

I will now attempt to take these principles, adhere to them and overtime create a club DNA for Athletic club, whilst of course also winning some trophies (pretty hard task in Spain, given my Basque restrictions)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Tactical Identity and approach

Ok, so the starting point of course is what happens on the pitch for 90mins each week. No point in having great youth development, coaching, transfer policy etc if we dont bring it all together and, in many ways, drive it from the tactical side.

I laid out the principles above, but just incase you missed them (half a screen above...), here is the recap:

  • We will play attacking football which focuses on high energy, pressing, quick movement, possession and above all teamwork.
  • When we have the ball, we will use technically proficient players to create varied attacks and mixed focal points without risking possession unnecessarily.
  • When we do not have the ball, we will operate as a team to press and win the ball back
  • We will impose ourselves on our opponents first and foremost and be reactive only when strictly necessary. Let our opponents be the ones to react to us.

So how do i translate that? Well firstly, i intend to create one tactic which i will use start every single game. We know what we want to do, and i have my interpretation of how to achieve it. There will, of course, be tweaks in game and reactions to the odd game situation, but i am not a manager, and we will not be a club who alters how we play based on the opposition. Of course there may be exceptions, i suspect we might need to change a little when we go to Barca and Madrid in the early seasons, but we will always start with this shape and these principles in place.

The tactic

The tactic itself is a 361 based on one i created in my Milan save. It is built on the principle of high press and flooding the midfield area. Midfield is where you are most likely to win the ball, and where you are mostly to create from, so get as many bodies as you can in there. In creating it, i wanted to focus on the "3 P's"

- Pressing

- Possession

- Penetration

Here is the shape/roles/duties first of all

98RaOuD.jpg

And a few words on why each role and duty were selected and also any PI which are applied are noted, as are the main players in my starting squad

Sweeper Keeper (Defend) - We will have a high line, so a sweeper keeper is desired. Unfortunately the other 2 duties mess up goal keeper distribution so has to stay as "defend"

Central Defender (Defend) x 3 - I originaly played with a middle defender on "cover" but did not like the shape, so for now a flat 3 it is - These 3 are set to "close down less" by PI but also "tackle harder". Aymeric Laporte is the natural left sider, the experienced Carlos Gurpegi mans the middle and Mikel San Jose starts to the right.

Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend) - In the DM slot, this is my "holder". He is set to "close down less" by PI and his duty will occasionally be varied by game conditions and opponent. He is the layer of protection when my CM strata goes pressing, and also covers the middle of the pitch deep when the outer DC have to go wide to cover balls in behind the pressing wide men. Ander Iturraspe is very well suited to this role, with the right PPMs as well.

Defensive Winger (Support) x 2 - This role is designed, according to the descriptor, to win the ball back high up the field. It also of course provides some defensive discipline. It is a high pressing role by default so no PI around that element. The use of different player types will make the roles function differently on each side of the pitch, however both have "get further forward" PI as by default they are a little cautious. On the left, Oscar De Marcos will bring a fair bit of attacking intent, and cutting inside with being inverted. He lacks overall quality but is solid and good work rate which is important. On the right, Andoni Iraola will bring a more defensive look to the position, being a converted fullback. Again good workrate but low stamina could be an issue with the pressing game.

Ball Wining Midfielder (Support) - A role that is at times much derided, the BWM, usually because it is used wrong. In a pressing system, with appropriate cover, its great. This guy is all about pressing and tacking. His support duty means he is not averse to adding something to the attacking side of our game either. A player with pressing type attributes is, of course, key and this is one where we are not overly blessed. Mikel Rico however is pretty well suited, with good pressing attributes, great tackling and some usefull PPM's

Central Midfielder (Attack) - Not necessarily a default "high pressing" role but not "low" either. I could compensate by adding the PI, but thus far have not found it necessary. His duty naturally finds him high up the field and our TI and mentality mean he presses from there. I could have gone for another BWM here, but that would be at the expensive of my attacking game. There is no point pressing if you then cant do anything with the ball when you have it :)Markel Susaeata is retraining as CM to play here. He is capable at pressing but his attacking intent is what i really want to see bursting forward. Running, passing, finishing. He can do all 3 pretty well.

Advanced Playmaker (Attack) - In the AMCR slot, this one is where i had to prioritise attacking ability over pressing in the role, and compensated by PI "Close down more". Again his high starting position works in his favour, and like the CM(a), the player type is vital to maintaining the press. Although this guy is our key attacking man, he still has to work hard. Iker Munian is the man here. He has the tools to unlock defences and is actually still quite a good worker which is important in every position.

Complete Forward (Support) - Again i think a moderate pressing role by default (although i am open to correction on this). The player type can actually vary just how this plays a lot and i have a couple of different types of player. Again for this role, because of the role type, and because he is our highest player, PI "Press much more often is added" Artiz Aduriz is my starter here and has great stats for pressing as a forward. His ability in the air gives us another dimension vs when Guillermo, my back, plays it.

Mentality and Team Shape

Control - Perfect for this Sets up the high press with increased Dline and pressing coming as part of this mentality, and also increased tempo to help with our crisp attacking game.

Flexible - A bit of a compromise really in terms of the balance between "team pressing" and the fact that actually, i only want half my team to press, but that half must do it together.

The Team Instructions

ObS3k7P.jpg

And why each:

Push Higher Up / Close Down More / Prevent GK Distribution - All 3 are in there to create my high press. Th first 2 are layered onto what already comes with "Control" but that is a deliberate ploy. I want more than just a little above standard press, i do want high and energetic. The last one just helps with the pressing starting high

Play out of defence / Work the ball into box - These are my possession related instructions. I dont want to use "retain possession" because that changes a number of other things, and i dont even want Short passing added universally as that limits my creative players. These 2 cover each end of the pitch, where i really dont want to give it away either by long punts or too many long shots.

So that is the tactic. This tactic will be implimented to my first team, my B team and my U19 team and we will not move from it. Our youths will be trained to fit it, and any recruitment will be driven by it. I might tweak a PI or even a TI here and there, but the overall formation and philosophy/principles are set in stone, and are the first cornerstone of my club footballing DNA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2) Player Recruitment Approach

So this session will likely be somewhat shorter than normal, given the choice of club :)

For anyone who is not familiar with Athletic club or Spanish football, Athletic has a long held tradition of only fielding "Basque" players. That is to say, those who are native to the Basque region or were trained in football in the region. Its a tradition that goes back to 1912 and is much discussed in the media. The definition of "Basque native" has changed a little over the years, but generally now it will mean those either born in the Basque region, or born to Basque parentage.

The slighly more "flexible" aspect which has come along in recent years is those who are "trained in football" in the basque region. Probably the most common interpretation of that, and indeed the way it is applied in Football Manager, is that the club will sign players under the age of 18 from other Spanish clubs, as at that stage they can still be considered to be "trained in football" in the basque region.

So in FM terms, this translates to a fairly small pool of players over 18 who are available to me. There are some world class Basques out there, both formerly of Athletic and not - Think Javi Martinez, Xabi Alonso, Cesar Azpillcueta, Antione Griezmann, Fernando Llorente Most (all) of these are unlikely to come to Athletic club in the near future however. There are some other "second tier" Basques who are more realistic short term (although not season 1) aims - The likes of Raul Garcia, Stephane Ruffier, Mikel Arteta. Then there are the third group, who are probably up there with group 2 in ability terms, but are unlikely to ever sign for Athletic - Players of arch rivals Real Sociedad.

What this does mean in player recruitment terms however, is that setting up scouting to look for players over the age of 18 is pretty much worthless. Any basque player good enough to be considered for our first team is almost certainly already known to the club - Whilst i might scout individual players, setting up a scout to seek out new ones is not going to yield anything. For this aspect, i will rely on the good old Player Search.

First team recruitment

As mentioned in the principles, although we will look to rely on the "cantera" approach and bring through our own players heavily (Youth Development is a main focus of the save/thread), we will not entirely ignore the chance to strengthen our first 11 via transfers.

For me, there are 2 reasons i might look to the transfer market:

1) The chance to sign a better first team player. These will be very limited with the aforementioned basque limitation, but there may be some times where a non youth player becomes available to me and affordable, and would represent a significant upgrade on my existing first team player, without blocking a top propsect. I will go on to touch on the need for the player to "fit in", but as one example lets take Stephane Ruffier. An excellent basque keeper, who is almost certainly an upgrade on my incumbent. My only "prospect" keeper is not ready for regular first team action, is probably at least 18 months away, and also is only borderline as a prospect. It would make perfect sense to sign Ruffier and sell Iraizoz. As it happens, Ruffier is not available, but just one example :)

2) Address a gap on the depth chart My love of baseball means i tend to create a very simple depth chart of my own to work from. Its a simple tool/guide to let me know which areas i might be a little thin on. I include my top prospects in it and also any "borderline" ones who are 20 or under and in the first team squad for one reason or another (at this point, because they were part of the top team when i arrived). The depth chart may have the same player covering several positions in backup roles, and indeed if it did not it probably means my squad is too large. I do not want a squad of 22 first team players. It is unsustainable and will lead to unhappy bodies. Below is the depth chart i put together for Athletic club

trvjDEf.png

As you can see, not a bad balance overall. Clearly this picture doesnt show you anything about the quality, but those in the depth chart have been deemed by me to be of an acceptable standard for our first team currently. The 2 "Surplus" are either not good enough or just have no place available in the squad. They will be sold at the next opportunity. The chart also shows we might be a little light in the BWM and also the DW position (the right sided DW functions in a very similar way to the BWM). So we could look to strengthen there.

However, as with everything, our footballing DNA has to udnerpin our approach to the transfer market. We must target players who fit in relatively seamlessly to our our tactical system and our approach to the game. It would not, for example, send a good message to our developing youngsters if we attempt to drum into them the need to work hard, function as a team player, run all day..........then go out and sign Adel Taaradt for example (not that we can - just an example to make the point :) ). So to that end, i set up a basic filter which reflects 2 parts of our DNA:

- Our players will be proficient at the football basics

- Players will be equipped to support our tactical philosophy

The way i have translated this is shown on by the filter below:

4wCfoC9.jpg

I will talk more about why these specific attributes in the youth development section, but for now the focus is recruitment and this is the template for it. I selected "14" as the minimum value rather than 15, as with 15 there are only around 15 players in the world who would meet it, and certainly no basques. THat said, even with 14s, the only 2 basques are Xabi Alonso and Javi Martinez.......so nothing available there.

So clearly i need to be a bit more flexible. I need to think about what is the minimum acceptable standard, in any circumstances for one of my designated key attributes (remembering this is about first team players, not prospects). I think it over, and settle on using "12" in the filter. This is a pretty low figure for a key attribute in La Liga, and i certainly would not sign someone with 12s across the board in my key attributes, but if i find someone with 15s across the board and a 12 just in there for one, depending on the player type he might be a fit. So the bar is set lower to give me a "pool", which i can then sift and pick those who i feel fit my footballing principles. The results of this, filter to "Realistic Transfers" (which filters out non basques) are below.

rCduA2A.jpg

So not a lot, and outside of Raul Garcia, and perhaps Garrido, not a well known bunch. Garcia is way out of my budget range, so he has to be put aside for now. I will use one player to demonstrate the next stage of my recruitment decision process, albeit i did not actually sign this player in the end.

Dani Garcia of Eibar is an unheralded player. 24yrs of age, little value and not much of a career to speak of (came through the Sociedad system). Lets take a closer look at this attributes to guage suitablity.

VG0aEJm.jpg

So i have highlighed a few things. In black are what i consider the "technical" basics of the game that i want proficiency in. In red are the primary attributes for our footballing DNA/philosophy. Those in blue were not part of the filter, but are the next 3 important ones for the position he would fill in my team (somewhere in my middle 4 - all of which require pressing attributes).

It is worth pausing for a minute to also touch on something which Cleon raised in his "meet the deep lying forward" thread. Just because this guy is a DM/CM now, doesnt mean i shouldnt look beyond that. So i did consider the other roles in my team. He is no where near technically good enough for my 3 forward thinker, so scratch those. DLP is somewhere he could almost do a job in, but not the level i would expect in my first team. His attributes for a Centre back are not terrible, but his lack of height and jumping counts against him and he is not lightening quick either. So no, if i was to consider him, it would be for a pressing role, most likely BWM with the option that he could cover DLP in an emergency.

So having looked at his attributes, i am not convinced really. At best he would be a backup for me, but my talent pool is limited so i do need to consider players who might not otherwise be first choice in my mind. His high teamwork/work rate/stamina along with Tackling and Aggresion just about keep him in contention for a BWM.

So next up, i need to look at personality types. This is important for me. I want to build a footballing DNA which applies to my players overall approach to the game, not just attributes. The only way i can judge this in game is the personality type and Media Handling type. At this stage, i also want to look at PPM's as they can make or break a player. So here is Dani again:

uxG281y.jpg

At this point, i would pause and say that for personality types, i refer to this excellent post in Cleon's Ajax thread to guide me on translating the personality types and this one, from a good while back (but i believe still valid now) for media handling.

So from this i can see that :

- He has no PPMS - ok so at least no negative/unsuitable ones, and at his age he could still learn the ones i like in my system. Fairly neutral factor therefor

- His personality type is "Fairly Professional" - Quite neutral but indicates professionalism above 15, which is good. No indicator on Ambition based on that personality type though.

- His media handling type is "Media Friendly" - Now even looking at the OP in that media handling guide makes my heard hurt, but what it does seem is that i cannot determine his "ambition" from this.

So no red flags there, the reasonably high professionalism is a nice trait. Low determination isnt ideal, but more so from an ability to play a pressing game point of view than from a development point of view. By now i think we should all realise that the thought that determination = development potential was a myth :)

Having looked at all that, i would then also give his scouting report a look (NB - because i am only using this to illustrate as an example, i just used the report that was in place - If i had been actually considering signing him, i would have got another from a better scout):

oKPo7IW.jpg

I have highlighted in green the factors which i consider positive, and red negatives. The one in grey looks like a bit of an anomaly. My scout thinks he could improve significantly in future, yet its under the "cons" section which is a little.........backward.

Overall, the scout report does not tell me a huge amount that i did not already know. The consistency indicator and the injury prone one are both handy. Likewise if i were signing from abroad, adaptability and language indicators are good (non issues in this save). Of course there is also the start rating, which in essence just summarizes the report. What it does tlel me here, is that the PA doesnt look to be that special (although part of this might be that it was a rubbish scout).

When scouting actual potential signings, i would also have at least 2 different scouts produce a report and compare them. If there are real differences, scout number 3 gets the shout. Its important to scout as deeply as you can in order to make sure a signing is well though out. I do not play with "fog of war", although i probably should if i wanted it to be realistic, but in my game scouting is about the hidden attribute indicators only :)

So the final verdict on our friend Dani is that i shall let him continue at Eibar. He would do as a squad player in a pinch, and if his professionalism was even higher i might have signed him with a view to passing on his personality, but as it is we have plenty in the "fairly professional" category.

That is then, how i approach first team player recruitment in the large picture of the Athletic club DNA. It has to link to the holistic view of the football club at all times. There are different ways to do it, but this is the way i feel i can best keep the bigger picture and still ensure my signings fit into place.

I will do a seperate section on "Youth Scouting" at a later point, as the approach there is of course very different, but still needs to fit in with my clubs football DNA.

Hope that is of some use to people and can provoke some thoughts and discussion :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3) Staff / Backroom team approach

So time for an oft overlooked aspect of the football club - The backroom staff. Now depending on your club/level of football, the size and specialisation of the backroom staff will vary a lot. In my club, being near the top end of La Liga, we do have quite a lot of room to bring in a big and multi-functional backroom staff. It is complicated by the presence of the "B" team in spain (and even the "C" Team!) but i will touch on those separately.

Key Roles

Within any club structure, there are 3 or 4 roles which are key. Every single member of staff should have a part to play and should contribute and allign to the team DNA, but as with everything there is a hierarchy which is vital. Leaders must lead by example. They way in which i target/judge staff is different for each role, although certain themes run throughout. I will run through the key roles first:

Assistant Manager

This guy is of course one of the most important. Depending on your management style, he may contribute more or less in various aspects of his job. He can do everything from running the training, to providing tactical advice, to helping with team talks and/or dealing with the media. He also, of course, will help with assessment of your own squad in terms of ability and potential.

For me, the aspects i look to my Ass Man for are:

  • Team talk advice - I do not always go with his suggestion, but i take it on board, so i want someone who can provide good input
  • PA/CA judgement - This is sorta a necessity. I cant do this on my own, so his "star" ratings for each player is going to be a guide towards me. I will take recommendations from other members of my staff on this topic, but he is the first i look to (for my first team squad at least)
  • Press management - I have to be honest, i find the media model in FM to be extremely repetitive and not particular interesting or representative of real life. None the less, it has an impact on things like morale so needs to be well managed.

Of course, to add to that list of what i want him to do, there is what i want him to be. This is where personality type and tactical preferences come into consideration. I really want my Ass Man to have a very good personality type to reflect what we strive for throughout this football club. I throw it in again, there would never be a place for Adel Taarabt (or perhaps Kevin Mirrallas!) at my club. So i will look strongly at personality. I would love to build a set of coaches who all share my fave formation and other tactical preferences, but that is unlikely to be possible so i need to compromise a bit there. I will look at "pressing style" and "passing style" in the first instance to try and get matches for my approach.

On the flipside, my Ass Man will not be expected to contribute particularly to training (I have enough coach capacity to hire specialists for each category) other than being the "extra body" to reduce workload somewhat where required. I also am very sure and set in my own tactical decision making, so his ability to give me good advice on that aspect is not of any importance to me.

So how does that translate? Well the first 2 bullets above i can use as a search criteria (Man Management & Motivating are what i look for to give a good team talk, and Determination + Level of Discipline seem like they wouldnt hurt either). Of course for Judging ability and potential take care of the second bullet. The other parts are down to personality type, media handling type and tactical preferences, so i will need to sift a bit, and use known contacts.

After setting my main search criteria to "12" again, to allow me to assess a wider range of candidates, some of whom might be great in 3 areas but only "12" in the fourth, i landed with this guy:

Rui Cacador

U0q1YuS.jpg

A look at his attributes shows that he broadly meets what i was looking for. I would love to have higher numbers in some of the green boxes, but they are all pretty acceptable, and the 17 for Handling Youngsters is also important - we are going to focus heavily on youth so we can expect a large part of our first team to be youngsters.

Next up, a look at his personality, and we see partly why i was willing to accept the "14s" in a few categories.

XMq01AA.jpg

Personality type is great. If we flick to our personality guide, we see that this indicates he has professionalism of 18-19 which is great. Likewise his media handling guide of "Level headed" gives exactly what we i need. The description itself is enough, but the translation includes the fact that he likely has reasonably high loyalty and not overly high controversy stats.

Finally, as you can see he shares my philosophy on pressing and passing. I would have liked a better match on mentality, but we cant have it all at this stage. Not every Ass Man is going to want to come to me.

Head of Youth Development

Another absolutely vital role if you want to be a club which has success with youth. This guy controls your intakes, is a major influence on them (although not the only influence) and also will help oversee all aspects of your youth team(s).

There has often been a fair bit of conjecture and discussion around what really makes a good HOYD. I personally have never been able to find any conclusive information about it, so its possible i look at this entirely wrong :)

So what do i want from an HOYD? (Aside from blinding intakes please!)

  • First and foremost, personality type - His personality type is going to influence the type of youths i get through, as many will share aspects of his personality.
  • Handling Youngsters - This seems like a given, when you look at the job title, although he wont actually manage the U19s or assign training, but still seems like something i want
  • Judging potential and ability - I have still never seen it confirmed, but one assumes these attributes impact on how he selects which players come into the intake.

Again, i would also look at tactical preferences. As with the Ass Man, finding a match in all categories is needle in a haystack type of stuff. I would love one that matched formation, to help give me the right type of positional spread in intakes, but i couldnt find one (given my unusual formation). I would then look for pressing style, passing style and mentality.

So again, search wise it was just filtering by handling youngsters and JP/JA at above "14" (in this instance, 12 would never be suitable for these attributes for this staff role). Then looking through personality types and media handling, as well as noting tactical prefs. And so we landed with a legend of Euro 92:

Kim Vilfort

cZqWCvk.jpg

As you can see, ticks the boxes in the 3 categories that i mentioned attribute wise, without blowing me away (although the handling younsters is nice and high). He also shares 2 good tactical preferences with our club DNA - Pressing and Attacking. Now onto his personality type, which again was the real deal seal for me:

tOGCsKt.jpg

So the personality type tells me that he has very high professionalism (18-19) and also that he does not have low temperament (10 - 20). Now his media handling style is also important, not because he will ever speak to the media (he wont), but because it also gives us a glimpse at some of his other hidden attributes. "Unflappable" tells me that he has very good temperament (15 - 20) and ability to handle pressure (15 - 20). It also tells me that his loyalty is not low (11 - 20) and his controversy is not too high (1-14).

So overall a good lot of info can be gleamed from that single screen. Hopefully he can shape my youths nicely :)

U19s Manager

Next up on the key personnel is this guy. The one who will manage my U19 side day to day and during matches. Now, as i am going to be so youth development focused, i will actually take on a lot of the duties which could fall to this guy myself (training set up etc). However he is still someone who could shape my incoming youths, and he will manage them on the pitch.

So what do i want here?

  • Working with youngsters - Again, this is all he is going to work with so he best be good at it!
  • Personality type - It will again be part of what is passed onto my kids, so i need him to be strong here, and also because personality type is part of our club ethos/DNA
  • Ass Man type qualities - Since he is going to actually manage a team, i want him to be able to motivate and man manage, tactical awareness would be good but not vital since he will be ordered to play with my tactic.

For this one, i actually struggled a bit to find an appropriate candidate. In the end the one i wanted came after i advertised the job, because i couldn't find one suitable via my "staff search". My filters were "15" for working with youngsters, then "12" for the other areas mentioned but anyone who met that didnt have the right personality.

So a lucky applicant this time (as well as one of the greatest names in football)

Tayfun Hut

7eSHUnY.jpg

So the atrributes dont exactly blow you away. Good on the youngsters front, but marginal on his man management/motivating. Determination is not too low which is an ok indicator, but tactical awareness is low. His in game tweaks to my tactic are likely to be rubbish. Does that matter? It does a little. I want my U19 team to be successful on the pitch to help my youngsters develop better. So what about personality? Perhaps this will give a clue why i gave the job to this guy:

5zDoRlq.jpg

Yup, we have ourselves a "Model Professional". This means he has "20" professionalism and also not a low temperament (10-20). His media handling type tells us that he also has good pressure (15-20) and further narrows his temperament to be between 10-14.

So that is the key roles, i will edit in further info on the other roles - Coaches, U19 Coaches, Scouts and Physios, but those will in general be far less detailed :)

First Team Coaching Staff

So again, this bit will be very different depending on your club. At smaller clubs, you likely cannot afford specialists as your number of coaches is limited. For me at Athletic Club, i have reasonable freedom (allowed 12 staff - coaches and physios combined).

So what do i search for with these guys/girls. Well for me, at this point i swing towards star ratings. I want guys who are as good as possible at coaching one particular aspect of the game. 9 coaches (since i have 3 physios) allows me to have

2 Fitness (one for each type of fitness)

2 Keeper (one for each type of keeper)

1 Ball Control

1 Tactical

1 Defending

1 Attacking

1 Shooting

That totals exactly 9, bringing me to my requirement. Both myself and my assistant can be used to supplement where workloads get "heavy"

So i want to prioritise Star ratings, and for that you probably need a guide, as again ingame its not possible to tell what drives it (Eg get a guy with "20" for tactical training alone does not equal 5 stars). There are a few guides out there, but it boils down to needing "DDM" in addition to coaching stats. DDM = Determination, Discipline, Motivating. So you can do a fairly easy search for these, whilst noting that some coaching type need more than one coaching attribute (eg Defending is made up of defending and tactical coaching)

In addition to stars, of course i want personality and i will give due consideration to tactical preferences. I will focus on the "pressing style" initially as again getting matches in all categories is impossible.

With that in mind, i did the various searches, as well as looking up known contacts and recruited my first team coaching lot. Below shows my staff:

JQDJCbU.jpg

As i said, i would look at personality aspects (looking particularly for professionalism indicators). However rather than screenshot each coach (i am running low on image allowance per post!) I did a quick table of each coach, the area i picked him for, his star rating then added personalty type, professionalism, his motivating stat (which i see as key) and also his "pressing" preference.

ONT3j5R.png

Of course, its never possible to get the perfect coaching team first time out, just like its unlikely to be possible to get the perfect team on the field. The fields in amber are where something is below the level i would want. Some summaries:

Carminati - Has slightly lower motivating than i would like, but high star rating blinded me a bit. He has always been a top coach in FM but i also cant ascertain his professionalism (although its not low based on that personality type i believe). I will keep him in place for now

Aroso - Really nice fit across the board. Nothing exceptional but he is a very nice all round fit.

Iru - I actually kept him from the original staff, and i didnt do enough diligence. It is only when putting together this post i realise how low his professionalism is. At only 4 stars, i will now actively seek to replace him as its easier to get Keeper coaches at 4.5 of even 5 than it is with most other types.

Jim Stewart - Another good Scotsman joins me on the staff and again fits nicely across the board. Less worried about his pressing style as he is only coaching keepers

Comolli - Possibly one of my best coaches, (also under appreciated for the work he did as DoF at Liverpool). He has a great personality type and pressing style. Will make for a great attacking coach

Haßler - A favourite of mine who i went back to. His below average motivating is balanced by excellent personality. Pressing is not ideal but its only one "level" down from what i want so no disaster

Onopko -This may have been a mistake appointment. I got slightly blinded by a lack of other good defence coaches, and because i loved him as a player in old CM games. His pressing stat is the opposite of what i want, his motivating is not great and his personality is a bit ambiguous about where his professionalism might actually sit.

Craig Gill - A welshman who randomly fitted some of my searches. Professionalism could be higher, but good pressing stat and closing down, with motivating also above average. I will monitor for a better match with a great personaltiy but for now Gill is fine.

Lucjan Brychzy - A known contact from a Milan save. Great professionalism, pressing stat and star rating. Motivating is also fine.

So that is my senior backroom coaching team. A couple of areas i still want to improve but for season 1 its not a bad crew :)

Physios

I could probably use any input others have here, because i am reasonably unsure what to look for in physios! My approach is to have 3 senior ones where i can, with one "head" and 2 regular Physios. I believe the number of physios can help with recovery time, accurate diagnosis and also fitness recovery.

I look for:

  • Physio stat above 15 (obvious)
  • Motivating stat above 10/12 (This is somewhat conjecture, but i do recall reading it helps)
  • Discipline stat above 10/12 (Same as above)
  • Fitness coaching above 12 *

* - This again might be wrong, but i have read in various places that physios also help considerably with fitness recovery post match (which would match real life). I have made some level of assumption that this stat might drive that, although it could be totally b*llocks)

As i say, i am not an expert in Physios and it seems from a search of the forums, very few people are (lots willing to post unsubstantiated ideas with nothing to back them up, even if was just a theory!)

Scouts

This is another area where Athletic club will differ massively from the norm. Normally i would have a large band of scouts, aiming to get lots of region knowledge and coverage. With Athletic, although i can scout all of central europe, i am unlikely to find an unknown basque anywhere other than Spain or possibly France (although only 2 french basques have ever played for Bilbao IIRC).

So i would aim, in this case, for 1 Chief and 4 normal scouts. This would cover a) Next Opposition scouting b)Liga BBVA scouting / liga Adelante scouting (can rotate between both) c) Spain U19s scouting d) "Second Opinion guy"

In terms of stats, i purely look for JPA and JCA. I would normally look at scouting knowledge but its not relevant this time. I tend not to focus on scout personality types, as they are generally away from the club and wont have any interaction with my players. Of course its a nice bonus if they fit in with my ethos, but the team DNA is more reflect in how i ask them to search.

Again, i would be interested if anyone has any other views, particularly if backed up by something, around other attributes to look for in scouts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4) Youth Development Approach

So i have hinted a few times now about the huge role i want Youth Development to play in our club DNA. It will be a large part both through necessity (the restricted signings) and through desire - It is part of my footballing belief and a big part of how i play Football Manager.

So as with a lot of this thread, we need to start from a set of principles. I laid these out under "player development principles" in the earlier post, but to recap/detail some more:

  • Players master the basic technical skills early (by age 18 at the latest)
  • Hard working, team focussed players to compliment the club system (At least somewhat developed in this aspect by age 19)
  • Players capable of fulfilling 2 roles in the majority of cases (by age 21)

The first of this is a personal believe and picked up from my studying of Craig Levien at Hearts and the work Levien and Ian Cathro (the now Ass Man at Valencia) did at Dundee Utd. It is such a simple idea, but frighteningly common that we have youths who reach 18 are unable to pass a ball properly or trap it, and end up being promoted because they are fast or strong or one dimensional. Nonsense to that i say. I want football players, not athletes.

The second principle is also important. If we have a club ethos around hard working, pressing, teamwork, then developing a load of fancy boys and flair wingers is not going to help us in the long term. Focus your youth on what your first team requires.

So again, principles are all well and good, but how do i translate these words into some form of implementable system?

I have a clear idea of what i consider "basic technical skills", which will consist of 3 core skills for all outfield players, and one or two positional specific "basics". Likewise, i know what my tactical approach needs in terms of hard working and team focussed. I will lay this out below:

Technical Skills - Minimum requirements by age 18

Defenders & DLP

Passing 10

First touch 10

Technique 10

Positioning 10

Tacking 12

DW (def) and BWM)

Passing 12

First Touch 10

Technique 10

Decisions 10

Anticipation 10

DW(att) and CM(a)

Passing 12

First Touch 10

Technique 10

Acceleration 12

Vision 10

Dribbling 10

AMC

Passing 12

First Touch 10

Technique 10

Vision 12

Finishing 10

ST

Passing 10

First touch 10

Technique 10

Finishing 12

Off the ball 10

Tactical Approach Skills - All players by age 19

Team Work 13

Work rate 13

Composure 10

Stamina 10

As you can see, i consider Passing/First Touch/Technique as the "basic skills" that everyone needs. The positional specific ones are only one aspect of each role, but ones that i have picked out as being key to the role.

With the "tactical approach" ones, 3 are probably obvious, however "composure" stands out a bit. Normally i would consider "composure" to be one of the basic skills, but i actually think it is one that will naturally develop more with game experience, hence why it moves into the "age 19" category.

So from that, i can create a framework to measure and track all of my youths against. I start with a baseline of the starting attributes of each, in the relevant category. I use conditional formatting to highlight areas where the player is still below the requirement, which in turn helps drive his training programme. Below is a capture of the spreadsheet from November 2014 (i need to get the dates into clear 2 months cycles!)

NCujwt8.png

Image Link (for bigger size)

As you can see, i only have 5 players tracked at the moment as I was not overly impressed by our starting youth. A couple i managed to scout and sign and a couple from the original squad. Xiker, unfortunately i lost to freedom of contract in Jan. My error, but his basic technical skills were very low anyway.

The way the tracker works is that i have a tab for every second month, which i update on the first. It doesnt take long as no player has more than 10 attributes to update. The conditional formating shows me where to focus training for the next 2 months.

I then have an summary sheet which will show the attribute movement in these key attributes from current back to the first time i input them (this will change to be "over the last 12 months" when i get that far into the game). Below is what the summary looks like as at January 2015. (declines would be shown with red figures, increases are in black).

phRanpK.png

Image Link (for full size)

The approach to managing development

So That is a lot about what i want to develop, and how i will track it/manage it. What about the methods behind actually achieving it? Of course there are lots of factors, but some of the ways i will achieve this:

  • From age 15/16 to 18, i will use the tracker to target and develop the attributes i consider to be required (as laid out as above). If a player is ahead of the curve and has reached his level on those, i will start to train in his role in the team
  • From 16 - 18 i will target some first team games for my top 5 youths. It will be on a sliding scale based on age and my judgement on potential. I will also give careful consideration to the huge advantage of the "B" team
  • From 18 - 19 players will continue to work to the tracker, but will be expected to be very close to "black" across the board. This is the age group where i want to transition away from the basics and target specific strengths (not weaknesses) and advanced positional specific targeting
  • At 18/19 players will be expected to be at least backup if not rotation, and game time to increase accordingly
  • PPMs i will not teach until either a) Player has cleared the targets across the tracker (if age 16 - 18) or more likely, when player reaches age 19.
  • General training for U19s and B team will rotate between Fitness and General for 6 out of 10 months (assuming roughly 2 months "holiday) with the other 4 months being 2 x tactical and 1 x defending and 1 x attacking. This is skewed towards the first 2 in order to develop players towards a pressing game.
  • Tutoring will be used from age 17 onwards, lining up my first team members with good personality types to top prospects

Game time is, as always key. I will manage this through the spreadsheet. I was aiming to track it in "minutes", but i cant seem to find an easy place to see "minutes played" in the player stats??

So that is a lot of theory, hopefully in later post i will be able to demonstrate it in action - Theory without outcomes is just talk really!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I'm already loving this thread. Currently doing this with Ajax (albeit it may be a bit easier) and althought it's only FMC it is my favourite save on FM15 atm.

Can't wait to read your updates, have fun ! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread is relevant to my interests. :)

Glad it caught your interest. There is quite a bit more content now added to posts 2 and 3, and more to come including one of my main focuses - Youth development, as well as staff building and of course training.

Oh I'm already loving this thread. Currently doing this with Ajax (albeit it may be a bit easier) and althought it's only FMC it is my favourite save on FM15 atm.

Can't wait to read your updates, have fun ! :)

Glad to hear you are taking a similar approach. My first perception would be that you cant really do this on FMC, due to some of the reduced functionality, but i might perhaps be a little hasty with that. It may just be that some of the details are taken care of for you. Sadly my personal view is that FMC lacks realism in certain elements, but if it gets you enjoyment, go for it! Be good to hear how you are going into the depth with Ajax. They already one of the most well known footballing DNA in the world :)

Maybe you could loan Illaramendi from R. Madrid. I heard Bilbao is interested in signing him in real life.

Thanks, very little chance that Illara will come available on loan in FM though. I would be very surprised if he ends up at Athletic IRL, as it would be a big step down for him and they are struggling a little this season after a great season last year under Valverde. I would love Illara in my team, so maybe in a year or two it will be possible :) He would fit in nicely as a DLP

I will try and finish my first youth development post tonight. A fair bit to write up and spreadsheet to demonstrate etc :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread! Bilbao are an interesting club and have good young players to develop.

Just a personal note to your OP, IMO Van Gaal was the one who planted the seeds at both Barca and Bayern for their recent successful periods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great thread! Bilbao are an interesting club and have good young players to develop.

Just a personal note to your OP, IMO Van Gaal was the one who planted the seeds at both Barca and Bayern for their recent successful periods.

Hmmm, im not sure you can trace it back to Van Gaal specifically at either. His time at barca was somewhat mixed. The first spell was much better, with the 2 league titles but i think its a serious stretch to link that in anyway to the most recent successful period? The barca approach and philospophy goes back a lot futher, perhaps Cruyff one of the biggest influences, followed by Rijkaard and of course Pep. Van Gaal's second barca spell was pretty disastrous as well?

In terms of Bayern, i can see possibly more where you are coming from. He was responsible for a good number of the players currently in that side currently, including development of guys like Schwiengstiger. But Bayern were absolutely clear in why they decided to replace Heynckes with Pep - They wanted to create a footballing identity which they did not feel they had, despite just winning the treble. They identity they have built bears little resemblance to Van Gaal''s style, but yes he deserves the credit for many of the players being recruited/developed to a certain extent.

Interesting to note that of 96 games managing Bayern, Van Gaal had a winning % of 61%. After 82 games, Pep sits at 79%. I dont mean to make this a trial between the 2, but i think you are a touch optimistic to say it started with Van Gaal at either club :)

I was actually a little surprised at the quality of the existing youngsters at Athletic. It is a touch lower than i recall from last year (either that or my Ass Man is crap). But there are some good ones - Unai Lopez is a lovely little player both in FM and IRL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmmm, im not sure you can trace it back to Van Gaal specifically at either. His time at barca was somewhat mixed. The first spell was much better, with the 2 league titles but i think its a serious stretch to link that in anyway to the most recent successful period? The barca approach and philospophy goes back a lot futher, perhaps Cruyff one of the biggest influences, followed by Rijkaard and of course Pep. Van Gaal's second barca spell was pretty disastrous as well?

As a long-time Barca fan (since 1990), I think Van Gaal planted the seeds. Sure, Cruyff is the original Godfather, but it was LVG that gave Puyol, Xavi and Iniesta a chance in the first team. He was also the one who re-focused the club towards developing its youth players and investing in them. Messi was also bought in 2000 when the Dutchman was the coach. Of course Rijkaard and Guardiola also deserve their dues, but Van Gaal started the process.

Anyway, don't want to sidetrack your nice thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This really is a top thread! Really impressive (especially when you consider you're a hearts fan!*).

I've always wanted to do this in fm but maybe don't have the footballing knowledge or imagination to pull it off!! Looking forward to seeing this develop.

*This was a joke....though, i should probably avoiding making them at the minute due to my club Rangers being just a giant pile of misery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just popping in to say KUTGW, I'm enjoying this a lot, you play really similar to me :) Not the tactic but the thought process when deciding things like that scout 12 filter!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can always appreciate threads where the user makes an effort to explain his decisions, I love these type of threads and think users benefit from them the most. Nice work :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad some people are finding it good reading (Even a dirty cream bun...... :D)

I have now added a quite detailed section on staff recruitment/backroom building, which i will expand on further in due course.

Youth development approach is coming soon, eventually. I have it mostly written out it just needs some organising and screenshots/spreadsheet images sorted out!

Then of course i need to make it all work! So far i have only played half a season (to xmas 2014) but we are up where i want to be in the table, and more impressively not only made the group stages of the CL, but won our group so we are still in Europe as the calander flips over. What i would do for a decent striker who isnt injury prone though....... :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very good thread. Its something I frequently ignore and then go around fixing it in my 3rd season.

In my hurry to start games off, I usually rush out and get the best stats for HYOD and coaches and frequently ignore their attitude and their tactical preferences. I will be following this thread keenly, and I am not as detailed as I used to be, there just aren't enough hours in a day anymore :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glad some people are finding it good reading (Even a dirty cream bun...... :D)

I have now added a quite detailed section on staff recruitment/backroom building, which i will expand on further in due course.

Youth development approach is coming soon, eventually. I have it mostly written out it just needs some organising and screenshots/spreadsheet images sorted out!

Then of course i need to make it all work! So far i have only played half a season (to xmas 2014) but we are up where i want to be in the table, and more impressively not only made the group stages of the CL, but won our group so we are still in Europe as the calander flips over. What i would do for a decent striker who isnt injury prone though....... :D

I'm keeping up with this. Really liked the staff post. I'll try and implement some of your methods with my Hamilton save :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really great thread. I love seeing people write in detail about their tactics with all the throught process behind the result (or the work in process).

I really like a 3-1-4-2 (ish) formation. I used it in FM14 in my Fiorentina save. I really like to play with a DM (DLP or RGA preferably) and two strikers (or ST, AMC combo) and this is one of the few formations that allows for that while keeping wingers as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a very good thread. Its something I frequently ignore and then go around fixing it in my 3rd season.

In my hurry to start games off, I usually rush out and get the best stats for HYOD and coaches and frequently ignore their attitude and their tactical preferences. I will be following this thread keenly, and I am not as detailed as I used to be, there just aren't enough hours in a day anymore :-(

I know what you mean. I almost always used to ignore staff until the end of season 1, but if i want to make this long term and create a top to bottom "club" DNA and ethos, i have to touch on all aspects :)

I have now added more detail to post #4 to cover my first team coaches, physios and scouts. The latter 2 i would welcome input from anyone with expertese!

As always, input/feedback on aspects is welcome! I will make a seperate post about U19 staff recruitment and tie it into B team approach i think

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to say that this is another very good example of the exact sort of thread that the forum benefits from.

It's great when people take the time to articulate exactly what their rationale is behind their decisions. Thanks for posting it Jambo98.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brilliant write up Jambo! Will be keeping a close eye on this, I enjoyed my Athletic save on FM14. Tempting to manage them again on FM15 :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is without a doubt my favourite thread on this site. I have a large soft spot for Athletic without knowing why so I am very pleased that you have done this. I have broadly followed the same set up as you, implementing a youth policy but I haven't paid as much detail to staff i.e looking at personality and tactical, so thanks for raising that.

I have struggled to settle on a team so far but then decided on Athletic and at the similar time found this thread.

Really impressed with your dedication and excellent write up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks fella's, I am glad people are enjoying it and hopefully taking things from it.

I have discovered something interesting which i have wrong in my OP. In previous years, Athletic could sign U18 spaniards who were "Non-basque", in line with the real life policy where youths are brought to the club. This appears to have changed in FM15 - I can now not sign any non basque players, at any age.

This will impact my youth development a little, as i hoped to to combine my own intakes with "poached" youths from elsewhere. That will now be much harder!

For all my attention to detail, i just lost one of my initial promising youths in January because i waited too long to renew his contract......... :( He wasnt looking outstanding, but i would have liked to keep him longer. After he signed a pre-contract with Spurs i opted to "Sell now" for £600K rather than take zero. This has annoyed a few of my players it seems :(

Tonights plan to write-up the youth approach and the spreadsheets etc may be impacted by the Liverpool game!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice topic, i think this is a real men challenge. Athletic is where the true winners lie.

Cheers,

Bitner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so the first part of youth development is now up and in place. Its the theory / background at least, hopefully some info people can comment on :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't commented properly on this thread yet, I just wanted to say thank you though. I have made a few pretty big posts on the forum in the past, and I really do appreciate how time consuming it is to put it all together.

Bit of a sickener about the under 18s Basque thing, changes the whole dynamic of your challenge really doesn't it. It's a fascinating concept that they use though, something as a fan of football for over 30 years I am ashamed I know very little about, but I may just do a bit of reading on it.

Hope you watched the Liverpool game btw, cracking second half.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't commented properly on this thread yet, I just wanted to say thank you though. I have made a few pretty big posts on the forum in the past, and I really do appreciate how time consuming it is to put it all together.

Bit of a sickener about the under 18s Basque thing, changes the whole dynamic of your challenge really doesn't it. It's a fascinating concept that they use though, something as a fan of football for over 30 years I am ashamed I know very little about, but I may just do a bit of reading on it.

Hope you watched the Liverpool game btw, cracking second half.

Cheers Torskus, i have seen some of your detailed posts and they are always great too.

The U18 Basque thing will make it harder, and I am pretty sure it is not the best interpretation by FM of the real life situation. That said, it is somewhat hard to nail down what the "official" policy is, because it has never been written down (to avoid it being legally challenged for one thing). However there have certainly been real examples in recent times of them poaching players from other academies to come across and learn football in the basque "country".

It will be interesting to see if the youth intake are all basque in nationality. One would assume so, but not clear how it would marry up with my "extensive youth recruitment"

The Athletic story in real is well worth a read. Formed by the brits, and have operated this "basque only" policy since the early 1900's, and what is most astonishing is that despite this, they are one of only 3 Spanish clubs never to have been relegated from the top division. They have also won the spanish cup an impressive 24 times!

I remember playing as them a good few years back when Joseba Etxberria was one of the finest players in the world :D Now part of my U19 coaching staff!

I will post a progress update shortly, since all the theory posts are great, but if i end up fighting relegation it would all be a bit pointless :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so how are we doing after all that work starting to build the Club DNA?

Well we have reached the midway point in Season 1. Early season was a little mixed. We did beat Arsenal over 2 legs to make it into the CL group stages which was huge for us. Gives us a massive financial boost initially, and the chance to possibly progress with a lucky draw. Boy did we get a lucky draw.....Benfica, Olympiakos and Dinamo! As far from the group of death as you could imagine!

In the league, a little up and down as our players try to adapt to this new style. Defensively in particular it is still not quite right. Too many individual errors and lapses in concentration are costing us.

Here is the competition summary after 20 league games for us:

A9902857B97D83201B6A781686DDCB1056DB5F02

As you can see, we sit an impressive second top. Barca will be out of reach, and i expect that once Real play their games in hand they will overtake us. However to be up there with Athletico for 3rd is beyond my expectation in season 1. I expected to fight for 4th place. We are also still in the CL, coming through the group as group winners and with a reasonably fortunate draw again in the last 16. The spanish cup semi final loss to Sociedad was sore. We were diabolical in the first leg away and lost 3 v nil. The return leg we were 2 nil up with still 20mins to go, through the kitchen sink at them but couldnt get the last goal.

One of our biggest issues has been injuries. Upfront we were already lacking in quality, but Aduriz managed to miss 3 months and has only played 13 time out of 33 possible games. Behind him Guillermo has also missed time, Kike Sola is awful and Borja Viguera has been injured more than he has been fit. Ibai Gomez even had to fill in as an emergency striker for a few games! Our squad summary shows the spread of games across the squad, which was out of necessity not desire:

A34614C81300469360255B7B55762A7253DE2CD9

Transfer Activity

As you might notice from the above screenshot, the squad has a couple of new members.

Mikel Arteta - The big January signing. Arsenal let him go for £1million and he took a pay cut to join us. He is past his prime a touch, but he has a great personality to tutor and by playing him in my DLP role, i can get a couple of good years out of him even if his physicals decline a bit (not the best natural fitness).

Stephane Ruffier - The best of the basque keepers. Got him for £7million after the board released more money (without prompting) in Jan. He is an upgrade over Iraizoz who is ageing and wanted a pay rise to sign a new deal. Ruffier could easily be the keeper for 5 years if we dont find/develop a youth.

Transfers out have been difficult. Other than losing one of my prospects, Xiker, to Tottenham for £600K, i couldnt move out the big earners who have no place. Benat, Torquera Iraizoz and Kike Sola were all transfer listed but either no bids (despite asking peanuts for them) or bids accepted then personal terms turned down! Or in the case of Torquera, keep accepting bid of zero from Deportivo, only for it to fall through each time because they "cant free up funds"......grrr.

Youth wise, my players are developing steadily. Of my 5 prospects identified, Xiker has gone, the 16yr old striker has stayed in the U19s but the other 3 have all had good game time. I shall update my tracker shortly. Also time to update the depth chart i think to make sure i still have a clear picture of the club and know who fills what role.

Now i just awake youth intake day :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Facing up to Challenges - Tactical analysis and problem identification

So far, this thread has been all about the good parts. All the great detailed stuff you can do to create a football DNA, the logical tactical setup, the fact that, on the surface, it is working nicely with us sitting second in the league.

However under the surface, I can already see that something is just not quite right for us tactically. The high press is an extremely challenging system to play, and you can be punished if your players are not gelled or if you have players who are just not suited to that kind of game. What had started to be clear to me, across a number of matches, is that we are not good enough defensively. Our overall record in the league is not great - 33 goals against in only 23 games. We also give up far to many good chances to opposing teams.

I had let this run for quite a while, allowing my team to adapt to the tactic and develop into the pressing system, but now it feels like its time to act. We have had no clean sheets in our last 8 games, and only 2 in our last 15. That is diabolical in all honest. Even though my principle approach to the game is "attack", we need to be better than that. We also should have no gelling issues ("Strong understanding" according to Cacador).

I do see similar types of issues occuring, and one of them is an old favourite. Here is a sequence from my last game against porto to try and illustrate.

Screenshot 1 - Tello has picked the ball up on the right wing. He is playing AMR in a 433 for Porto. The shape of my team is looking OK here, The back 3 in good shape, my DLP in position behind the midfield. Nothing to worry me at this point

hzuYV2j.jpg

Link to full size

Screenshot 2 - Now trouble is starting. Tello has flicked it into the striker Aboukar, who has come deep. Arteta is getting across though, so should be no big panic. The guy is faced away from goal and has no real "in behind threat". The problem though, is the red circle. My central DC, Gurpegi, is starting to charge out. Totally unnecessary, given that Arteta has it covered and if he turns the other way, the BWM is coming back for him to run into.

iijX8WN.jpg

Link to full size

Screenshot 3 - Now we are up sh*t creek. Aboukar has sensibly laid the ball back to Ganso (remember him!). Gurpegi is out of position and just about standing on Arteta. We have 2 problems now. Firstly Porto have an overload into the space vacated by Gurpegi, and secondly even if there was only one body breaking there, Laporte has not matched the run. He is ball watching

Iqefiro.jpg

Screenshot 4 - Yup that was predictable. A good ball from Ganso puts one of the two runners (Tello) in the clear and through on goal. Laporte has tried to play offside (we dont have that TI ticked) so is out of the game. Luckily Tello puts it wide, but that was all too easy for Porto

QT6vBXe.jpg

Ok so, that is just one example and i do see similar things happening all too often. It seems to boil down to 3 problems at the back

1) The DC (especially central DC) charging out to close down unnecesarily and leaving a hole so big you could race the america's cup through it. This is such a common gripe on these forums and I myself have struggled with it in the past.

2) The outer DC's seem to lack awareness of runners from deep. They neither get tight nor drop off. Sometimes the are caught coming in tight to cover for the charging DC, which leaves space wide, and sometimes they do not try and cover at all, such as in this example

3) Not so visible in this example, but we seem to struggle to "pass on" wide men from DW to outer CB. At times the DW is not tracking back as much as i might expect. I do want them to close down high, which is the core function of them. But with slow built up moves, they just let opposing wingers go at times when they are in perfect position to track. When they let them go, it is not as if they hand them off to the outer CD (which would make sense in certain phases).

Of course one must also look deeper and further back in the moves - Is there enough pressure on the ball up high? In most cases i observer i am ok with this. We could still improve our pressing but it is reasonably effective the majority of the time. You can never entirely cut off supply to the opposing attacking players, certainly not at my level with my players. So for the moment, i need to focus on what my defence does when our press is bypassed.

A few things to note:

  • All 3 DC have "close down less" PI active
  • All 2 DC have "Tackle harder" PI active
  • Gurpegi, my central DC, has PPM "Mark tighter"
  • Laporte, my DLC has PPM "Dives into tackles"

So to the possible solutions. It seems clear to me that problem 2) is linked to problem 1). If i can stop the charging out, the 3 can act like a true defensive 3 and that gives us a better starting point. I can then see if we still have an issue with the outer guys tracking runners, and if so then address that as a seperate issue. Lets take it one step at a time.

One obvious answer is the PPM on Gurpegi. At first glance, does that mean that in an example like these screenshots, Aboukar (the sole striker) is considered to be the player he is supposed to mark, and does that PPM make him follow Aboukar deep? Even though at some point, the striker comes out of his zone and clearly into that of Arteta? Quite possibly. So action number one is to take Gurpegi out of the central role. He will either be moved to DCL or dropped.

I dont believe that is the entire solution, because i have played several matches without Gurpegi in that position and still observed similar problems. So i need to look further. Next thing to look at are the 2 PIs. The obvious thing here is to change "close down less" to "Close down much less" for the DC. I have my reservations here, simply because i have experience of having closing down minimal at TI and PI level and still seeing DC charge out, but i need to give it a try. The "Tackle harder" PI was because i felt i had good tacklers at the back and i was comfortable with them launching into challenges where they might have a lower % chance of wining it. I would never have this instruction on any my "pressing" players because it ruins the press, but with the back 3 it encouraged them to aggresively win the ball from strikers in dangerous areas. However, perhaps it is also encouraging players to charge towards a challenge, so it can go. I will not go all the way and activate the opposite PI just yet.

Problem 3 i will leave for now. Lets tackle things methodically.

Very much open to hearing opinions and thoughts of others. I know RTH and myself discussed this "charging CB" issue in one of the 442 threads and going to "High structured" and "Be more disciplined" was perhaps a way to stop it, but for me that is far to extreme. I should not need to change the entire team approach to get one chap to do as he is darn well told :)

Time to pray for a clean sheet :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The DC charging out thing has destroyed at least one Spurs career I had. It was beyond ridiculous, no PI's or TI's for closing down set, no PPM's yet they come flying out of position the second the ball comes within 2 feet of my half

:mad:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is an interesting one. The first tactic i created (the 451 from my thread on that formation) i never noticed it all, and that was in a formation with no DM.

Since then, i have had issues with it in most tactics and observed that many others do as well. I couldnt get it stopped in my Sacchi 442 at all. I wasnt prepared to go "Very structured" and "Be more disciplined" and without those it just was not happening.

After the tweaks mentioned above, I liked the look much more. We kept 3 consecutive clean sheets, including against Real Madrid.

However the next 3 games, we have fallen apart again. We leaked 2 against Porto, 1 against Celta and then worst of all, 3 against Almeria. I was not, however, observing the same behaviour ingame i felt. So i did a retrospective review of all the goals in those 3 games:

Goal 1 - Porto - 20 yard screamer. Nothing wrong with our defending, just a world class strike from Otavio

Goal 2 - Porto - Penalty. One of those annoying ones where my player and the striker are stood still jockeying for about 5 secs and you just know it will end in a foul. Horrible animation on the part of the game, but defensively the attack was going no where, so nothing much to learn

Goal 3 - Celta - Freekick from distance, off the bar and my keeper doesnt react, giving the Celta player a tap in. Nothing i can, known issue for about 3 patches which is much better than it used to be, but rebounds still freeze the keeper at times

Goal 4 - Almeria - A well worked move following an advanced throw in, but the finish is a deflected shot. There is something to look at in how my team are positioned for defensive throw ins though. The space emerged when someone who was out near the touchli[/b]ne defending suddenly back peddled into the middle. I will look at my setup

Goal 5 - Almeria - This is just bizarre. Almeria have a freekick midway in my half and are taking it short. As they stand over it, my middle CB (San Jose) is standing miles out of position, almost in the wall. When they take it short, he has to rush back, as he is doing so the man who was stood in his place (the right DC who had tucked in) moves away, and in that moment Almeria play it through to the striker who has stood still right in the middle of the goal, 18 yards out, whilst my 2 DC do this "dance". Unsurprisingly he scores/. I will look at defending freekick settings to see if i have prompted this somehow.

Goal 6 - Almeria - - This is poor individual stuff, but actually in the build up a great example of my central DC staying in place and not charging out. The ball ends out played outside Laporte, who stupidly claims for offside when its not even close. However he still moves in time to not be out of position, but makes no effort to block a cross. It comes in low to the near post, and the striker nips infront of our static 2 CBs to score. At least we had everyone in position, but poor individual play by all 3.

So overall, the charging out issue is gone for now. I just have had some bad luck, some goals which just happen in football, and still the odd bit of poor individual play. I now need to focus on the other end, we dont look fluent upfront. We lack a striker of any quality so i need to get a bit creative perhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the heavy close down less you could be susceptible to a few long shots by conceding the space in front of your defence. But I'd much prefer the AI relying on worldies than that horrible Tello/Ganso situation. It did seem to me however that Arteta was never really goal side of Aubocar in the early stages and that is what maybe made your central DC follow him too deep. I don't think defensive midfielders in the MC stratta come deep enough sometimes whic is leading to CD's charging out and playing without a DM difficult. It could be a positional attribute low rating for the defensive CM perhaps or just how the engine is playing at the moment?

Edit: Just seen that you do employ a DM as a DLPd so I'm officially baffled :lol: Although you could argue Arteta's defensive position early in the move is quiet high up for a DLPd? I still think the charging out by CDs is linked to poor defensive midfield players positioning and it is really bad without a DM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair, i think it has to be partly an ME thing. Sometimes it is realistic, and there should be a penalty to pay sometiems if your defenders dont close down a player in space (think the Sterling goal last night - once he got past Matic and Mikel, Cahill backed off which let him run and shoot/score) but it is just too prevalent.

I am having much better luck with my changes to be fair, i just need to knock out the individual errors!

I am also trying out an attacking tweak which has looked good thus far, and finally i had the much awaited youth intake day :D Some spreadsheet updating needed!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Youth Intake Day

As someone who has played the "youth only challenge" in the CSE forum a fair bit, i am well used to the excitement (or sometimes disappointment!) which comes with youth intake day. SI have made it a touch more exciting this year with the youth intake dates now being dynamic and changing each year.

With Athletic, we have "Extensive" Youth Recruitment and "Excellent" Youth Coaching (I got it upgraded by selecting the philosophy of "developing youth" to be judged on). I was therefor reasonably hopefully of securing a good intake, particularly after the focus on the backroom team and getting personalities right across the board.

So the day arrives and here is the group of fresh faced young lads who roll off the bus at San Memes

ivKe1ZV.jpg

So as we can see, a mixed bunch in someways. 4 Excellent looking prospects is hard to grumble about, but the quality drops off noticeably after those 4 which means we dont gain huge depth. However we will look to supplement by scouting for Basque regens at other clubs (some should come through the other Basque area clubs academy i would think)

So onto the 4 new prospects whom we will focus on:

Prospect 1 - Jon Sola

QwapDPW.jpg

The Ass Man likes the look of this kid, rating him as 4 gold/5 black potential and could be one of the best at the club. He has some nice attributes, the starting physicals are good, but is a bit wierdly balanced (a theme with regens often). Fundementals wise, the first touch and technique are there already but passing will need a lot of work. He will be slated for a position as DW in my team, so the work rate already at 13 i am happy about and his mentals should develop nicely over time.

Personality - He is "Determined" with a MH style of "Evasive". This is good news, translates as high determination (which we can see) with ambition above 10, and both the all important professionalism and handling pressure being above 15. That gives me a good personality to work with. He will still be tutored by one of my first team whom i know has high professionalism and determination.

Prospect 2 - Gorka Perez

n3U3HcR.jpg

Another one rated as possibly one of the best at the club with the 4/5 potential. I wonder if this guy might actually be the biggest gem of the lot. His starting attributes across the board are probably better than Sola. I like the first touch and technique again, although again passing needs work (my u16 passing coach would be fired if i had one!) . Also with Vision and Flair at 14/15 he looks a great future AMC in my team. I like that he isnt afraid of a challenge either (Aggression/Bravery) and already has some speed and dribbling ability. Composure, along with passing, are the 2 big areas of weakness, and teamwork/workrate will need to come up to support our pressing game.

Personality - Another who is "Determined" but MH style of "media friendly" is not idea, not because it is bad as such but because it gives no clue at all to professionalism. I feel that with the way my other prospects look personality wise, and with how highly rated he is, his professionalism is unlikely to be too low. That said, we will tutor him with a good professional anyway to be sure.

Prospect 3 - Roberto Pascual

OwoyviR.jpg

Continuing a nice position spread of my top prospects, a defensive type CM who is slightly lower potential than the first 2 according to Ass man, but still a real prospect. This one can actually pass a ball to start with which is nice, but the price for that is poor technique. He looks to me like a BWM prospect, so his good natural fitness and stamina give me a base to work from, as do his Agression and Decision making. Team work and work rate are high starting wise, so he is in the mould of pressnig player we want. Anticipation, Composure and Tackling all need to be focused on in his early years.

Personality - "Fairly Ambitious" and "level headed". From this i can zero in on the fact that his professionalism is either 13 or 14 (because of the combo of the 2). So not brilliant but plenty to work from and with a little tutoring from Mikel Arteta, i think we can get that up a bit.

Propsect 4 - Inigo Franco

PWY4bWp.jpg

A much needed defensive prospect after losing Xiker and my first team options there not being great outside of Laporte and San Jose. The Ass man rates him similar to Pascual and if he can fulfill that he will be important for us. As often the case with defenders, his technique and first touch are low compared to my baseline target. You could say its less important for CB's, but i have the same basic footballing ability expectation of all my players. On the upside, he can pass already. The basic defending stats are there, but his lack of height and ability in the air is a worry. By playing him as one of the "outer" CB's i can minimise the impact of this. Will need to focus on his strength, technique, first touch and possibly pace as he looks like he could develop into a fast CB which is a nice addition.

Personality - "Fairly Determined" and "Media Friendly". This could be a bit of a worry, as all i can get from that is that professionalism is below 14. How much below, i wont know. I will tutor him with a good Pro to try and make sure he improves and watch his development closely.

So now these 4 get added to my tracker, which has of course lost Xiker but retained the other 4 from season 1.

UZEHIhM.png

For the final 2 months of the season, these 4 will remain in the U19s and if i get a chance, one or two might get a few minutes off the bench in non crucial league games. For next season, i need to give serious thought to the "B" team. They play full competitive games at a good level, and that could give "game time" to these guys much earlier than they would get otherwise. There is the potential to really use the "B" team to my advantage hugely.

Next up i will post about a further tactical development which appears to have solved one of my main issues :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to see how you use the B team. Btw I might have missed that, but do you manage the B team as well, or you let an AI manager do that? As that could complicate things in regards to individual training etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Amazing read and awesome youth intake!

Thanks, glad you are enjoying. Part of the reason for choosing Athletic was that they have one of the best youth setups in the game, but i probably didnt expect 4 top prospects in one go! As i say though, its balanced off by the weakness of the rest of the bunch. In some ways, 2 top prospects and another 5 mid level ones might have been preferable when you consider that i need to develop squad players due to my signing restrictions.

I'm looking forward to see how you use the B team. Btw I might have missed that, but do you manage the B team as well, or you let an AI manager do that? As that could complicate things in regards to individual training etc.

This is a good point, i have touched on it about 5 times now and i dont think i have ever properly explained it. In short, i do not like the game's set up that suggests that i could never influence how the B team is run. I find that unrealistic. Of course as a full time professional team playing in Segunda Division B it needs its own manager and coaching staff, but its crazy to think that the first team manager/DOF would not have some say in the tactics and training used.

So i work around it. I add a second manager to the game and make him manager of Bilboa Athletic (My B Team). Using that manager, i then set the tactic to match my first team, pick the players i want to be playing, and set up the training as i need it to be. To avoid having to play all the matches, i then put this manager "on holiday" and set the holiday instructions around "use my tactics and my chosen team lineup".

Around once a month, or adhoc if necessary, i bring the manager back off holiday to tweak training and/or team line up, then return him to holiday. To help performance on the pitch, i tried to get a good B team Ass Man so that the matches are managed appropriately (team talks, subs, tactical changes in game).

It is not the ideal strategy, but it is the only way i can get control of my entire club, which is key to creating a club DNA.

As it happens, Bilboa Athletic are right on the verges of promotion to Liga Adelante which would be great - even better competitive football. They will need to go via playoffs and its very tight with 4 teams fighting for 3 spots, all separated by a single point with 2 matches to go!

I'd love to develop Gorka Perez with flair vision and bravery so nice already he could be an absolute beast of a AMC.

Yup i really like the look of him, and in my tactic he will be an excellent fit i feel if i can build him into a hard working type to compliment his ability. My AM must be prepared to press to keep the team approach cohesive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha that's very smart workaround! I feel almost ashamed I never thought of doing it this way, despite having at least one long term save in Spain per each FM edition. I always used the B team for 2 and less stars potential players, while the promising ones did direct jump from U19 to the A team. I will start using yours approach on my Valladolid save now. :-)

How does it work with finances in the B team? Above all when it comes to coaches etc? Is it possible to attract good staff?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems very hard to attract good staff to be honest, and i had not looked much at the finances but there was no transfer budget and minimal wage budget available. I am not sure how it works in real, but i think the game is probably not quite right. I would assume all players should be owned and paid by the parent club in reality?

Just had one of those games which really bring you down to earth and make you realise you don't always get it right. We had gone on a great run, winning 4 in a row including demolishing Sevilla and Valencia. Our new tweak had us looking lovely. The last of the wines was only 1 v 0 against Cordoba and whilst we created a load of chances, we were poor in front of goal and had several lapses at the back allowing them chances. I gave them a bit of a bollocking in the post match team talk. Told them that they wouldnt get away with that in bigger matches.

Next up was the Derby against Sociedad. We dominated possesion as we always do, but we were timid in the final third and created few chances. We were again slack at times going the other way. Sociedad had 36% possession but created 3 good chances and equalised in the last minute to grab a draw. I was bitterly angry at the team and gave them another kicking.

The next match was away to Athletico, who are our nearest rivals for 3rd place but came into the game 6pts behind us. We absolutely capitulated. Athletic destroyed us. Manduzic bullied our defenders and helped himself to 2 in the first half and could have had 4. After the break wasnt much better, Manduzic set up Griezmann for a third and at this stage they had 16 shots, 5 CC and we had 6 shots and 1 CC. After a triple sub, we perked up a bit and snatched one back, but it was too late. An awful performance and almost certainly linked to how i handled the previous 2 games. I probably didnt react tactically either, Manduzic was a beast and Athletico went direct to him and we just did not deal with it.

So onwards and upwards, we live and learn. 3 games to go and we still have 3pts over Athletico and all 3 of our games are bottom half sides. If we collapse now i will be very disappointed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Squeaky bum time Jambo! Pressure might be getting to your side?

Nah i think it was just bad team talks then a poor tactical game. Athletico were very good.

We bounced back, we won the last 3 games comfortable and ended up 9 pts clear in 3rd.

Will do a proper write up tomorrow, and talk about some concepts in between seasons of how i might keep developing the club. Some interesting decisions to be made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems very hard to attract good staff to be honest, and i had not looked much at the finances but there was no transfer budget and minimal wage budget available. I am not sure how it works in real, but i think the game is probably not quite right. I would assume all players should be owned and paid by the parent club in reality?

I'm not sure how it is actually but indeed as you say, that's how I would expect it to work. Without good staff it might be a setback in player's improvement to use the B team? Or let's say what is better, playing low competition level like U19 with great coaches, or professional football at 2nd or 3rd tier, but with worse coaches?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You won't be able to get good staff at the outset..the best i can usually find are 3-4 stars...however once my finances start getting better and my ingame rep starts to go up, I usually am able to snag coaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure how it is actually but indeed as you say, that's how I would expect it to work. Without good staff it might be a setback in player's improvement to use the B team? Or let's say what is better, playing low competition level like U19 with great coaches, or professional football at 2nd or 3rd tier, but with worse coaches?

It is a good question, but since my U19 coaches wont quite be at the standard of my first team coaches (although of course fitness and GK ones are shared), the "hit" of moving to my B team is not quite so big. In my view, game time is the single most important factor in youth development. Spanish 3rd tier football is still a pretty decent level, but by tracking my propsects progress on a quarterly basis i can keep a close eye on any impact playing in the B team has.

You won't be able to get good staff at the outset..the best i can usually find are 3-4 stars...however once my finances start getting better and my ingame rep starts to go up, I usually am able to snag coaches.

I assume that is for the first team though? With Athletic i was able to get pretty good coaches to start with (table in post #4) with a combo of 4 and 4.5 stars. I will look to see if i can upgrade but personality type might be as important as that extra half star.

With the B team, the rep and finances are much harder to get up. Unfortunately Bilbao Athletic missed out on promotion by losing in the playoffs. This season, i will give them a little more love. Really in season 1 i just focused on using it to house a few mid level and one top prospect, but for next year i will try to give them a balanced side and make sure they have one or two players who hopefully can get them promoted. Will all be worthwhile in the longer term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this has been covered Jambo - have you considered trying a form of Cleon's Ajax set up?

So, keep your senior squad and your primary targets for youth development all together in your senior squad and then dump the players who are never really going to make it into your B team? Therefore in effect your U19s squad is empty and so no need to employ U19 coaches. It then becomes fairly simple to make players available for the U19s matches, or even rotate particular hot prospects into the senior squad now and again?

Anyway, apologies if you have considered this - I'm at work and haven't got a huge amount of time to read through this whole thread atm :o.

Looks good though :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You do put your youngsters on heavy workload, don't you?

And what do you do when they complain about heavy workload?

I guess that their complaints have to do something with their personalities, but I would rather ask somebody that probably know more than me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...