Creating a footballing DNA - Athletic Club

[EnigMattic1]

Damn you Jambo! Yet another amazing thread that I now have to follow. Seriously though, Well done on the thread so far. Loving the detail and I'm keen to see how this plays out for you with the Basque rules. I have never even considered a Bilbao save until now. I may seriously have to think about it now......... If i can tear myself away from my current Liverpool save or my database project.

[Jambo98]

Sorry if this has been covered Jambo - have you considered trying a form of Cleon's Ajax set up?

So, keep your senior squad and your primary targets for youth development all together in your senior squad and then dump the players who are never really going to make it into your B team? Therefore in effect your U19s squad is empty and so no need to employ U19 coaches. It then becomes fairly simple to make players available for the U19s matches, or even rotate particular hot prospects into the senior squad now and again?

Anyway, apologies if you have considered this - I'm at work and haven't got a huge amount of time to read through this whole thread atm :o.

Looks good though .

Cheers herne, Yeah i did operate that approach with 2 of my main prospects from the "original list" (the 3rd is a perm member of other first team - Unai Lopez and the fourth, Villabre, was left in the 19s). For Celihueta and Gorka Calvo they were housed in the first team and made available for U19 matches at various points (they also both got some first team games, Celihueta made over 14 appearances, including 4 starts). It helps with the training approach, although i will leave my "non prospects" or "low prospects" in the U19s to fill out that squad and make sure that when they do play, they have a chance of being competitive (even though it is not official games).

The thing with the "B" team, is that it is effectively like being able to loan out players to League 1 in England, but retaining full control of their training and development, including PPMs. If i could get them promoted into the Adelante then its not far off Championship football. If you consider a youth playing 30 games in the championship, and perhaps 8 in my first team, against even 12 in my first team and 30 in the U19s, the former feels much more like it will develop them.

You do put your youngsters on heavy workload, don't you?

And what do you do when they complain about heavy workload?

I guess that their complaints have to do something with their personalities, but I would rather ask somebody that probably know more than me.

I dont always have them on heavy, but any complaints from first team or youths about training workload get ignored completely. They are overpaid buffoons who complain at being made to work for more then 3hrs per day! Personality probably plays a part in it, but i have never seen the complaints actually have any effect on overall morale so i leave it.

Damn you Jambo! Yet another amazing thread that I now have to follow. Seriously though, Well done on the thread so far. Loving the detail and I'm keen to see how this plays out for you with the Basque rules. I have never even considered a Bilbao save until now. I may seriously have to think about it now......... If i can tear myself away from my current Liverpool save or my database project.

Thanks The basque rules make it fun.

Slightly strangely though, the rules seem to change after season 1. In season 1, i could not sign even U18 Spaniards like i could in previous versions. In season 2, i now seem to be able to sign Spaniards with no Basque second nationality as long as they are under 18. Nice bonus, but wierd that it didnt work in season 1.

It does make off season recruitment much easier, as there is so little i can do. I am currently mulling over a big decision over whether to bring in Raul Garcia.

He is available for about £7.5million, will ask for reaosnably high wages but i am offloading a couple of players who earn big money so i could afford it. I am just very carefully considering how he would fit into my system, how his PPMs and personality would compliment the squad, whether bringing him in would upset the squad balance. In theory, he might take playing time away from Unia Lopez, however we are very light on squad depth (or at least quality depth) and since we will be taking another run at the CL, and would like to go deep in the Copa del rey, i can still see game time for 4 players to cover 3 positions.

I am leaning towards making the move. His PPM "arrives late in the area" should fit perfectly into my system, and at 28 and with good natural fitness, he should have a good 3 - 4 years in him. His strong personality (Fairly proffessional) makes him a tutor option and he has the mental stats to fit into our pressing setup. On the flip side, his technicals are good but not great. His performances for Athletico were not great last season either.

Sending a different scout to get a 3rd report then make my decision!

[Jambo98]

The tactical tweak & unintended consequences

So back up a few posts, and i had identified the issue with my defending, and i had taken steps to fix this. It has worked fairly well and i am now moderately happy with my defence (it could still be better). Shortly after this, i had to turn my attention towards the other end of the pitch. Our attacking play was lacking fluency at times. We were scoring goals but not consistently enough and we were wasting possession and moves were breaking down at times. Careful analysis of a few matches led me to a few conclusions:

• My CF(s) was looking isolated at times, he would pick the ball up and hold it, but runners were not getting up with him. What's more, he was wasting possession a lot with poor passes and dribbles. Generally he was not contributing much
  
• The quality of my strikers is not good as i have mentioned before. Aduriz was injured more often than fit, and is not my player type, Kike Sola poor quality, Borja Viguera moderate quality at best and Guillermo inconsistent
  
• I was not getting the best out of Markel Susueta in the CM strata and his performances were not very effective
  

I pondered on this for a while, looked the options. I thought about moving my AM up to a second striker to make it more of a partnership. Munian could play up top in a DLF type role, and put the other striker higher. However we need to think about how our high press works and allowing our midfield to link to our attack. This was a serious option, but also the afore mentioned issued around the lack of strikers didnt help.

I thought about different role for the sole forward, but nothing quite felt right amongst the roles, and again, my strikers are rubbish.

Then i thought, well if my strikers are rubbish, lets just do away with them. I decided to pull the CF(s) back to the AM strata and join the strikerless brigade. I made the former striker into a SS(a) to still make him the main attacker. Initially i also changed the role of the midfielder directly behind him from CM(a) to AP(s), however i have changed this back now as the AP(s) is a little to conservative and also lacks pressing by default. Player wise, this allowed me to move Munian to SS and take advantage of his running ability. Susueta was moved into the AP(a) in the AM strata which suited him much better and he performed miles better in that role. Unia Lopez slotted into the vacant CM slot which allowed me to give him regular first team games.

Below is how the "new" tactic looks.

The impact was instant. We looked much more fluent and linked up. The SS and AP linked up nicely, lots of passes and they got together as a pair. The AP(s) lurked behind them and provided probing passes. I really liked how this looked and the goal scoring picked up as well.

Then i also very quickly noticed the "unintended consequence" - The impact this change had on the DW was huge. Previously, i had a bit of an issue with them not getting forward enough. They have PI "get further forward" and De Marcos has great PPMS - "Gets forward wherever possible" and "gets into opposition area", but still at times they were hesitant to go beyond the AM strata and provide an outlet high up the field. With the removal of the striker, it seemed to somehow release these guys to bomb forward. I cant honestly quite say why, but i think perhaps as the CF is a role which has roaming by default, he might move laterally a lot and be on the verges of the space in which a DW could move forward into, and this would impact their decision making on whether to get forward. With the roaming striker gone, there is suddenly no one else in the space and the DW can move forward when we are in possession, whilst still providing defensive cover and high pressing out of possesion. Here are some examples of it in action.

First up here is just a shot of a goal by De Marcos, showing how he has got into the box and is ahead of Munian (the SS) who has the ball, and in position to have a clear shot at goal, which he finished.

Next up a sequence showing Iraola doing it, and he doesnt have the same PPMs. Here Unia Lopez is about to feed Susueta who has dropped off. To his left Munian is on his horse, but to his right Iraola has spotted space and is about to go and take that space

Now Iraola is motoring, and Susueta has a clear passing lane to put him in on goal.

Iraola is now clean through and makes no mistake. Not exactly vintage defending by Elche, but still nice work from us to take advantage. Susueta higher up the pitch using his creative skills, Munian running from deep to occupy one side of the defence whilst a late arriving Iraola gets the benefit. BOOM.

Next up an even more extreme example. Iturraspe has the ball deep in our teriroty as he brings it out from the back. Iraola has made an early run this time, and you can see how far ahead of even my AM strata line he has gone. Iturraspe has the freedom to try the long ball (as we dont have "short passing" TI which is so common/popular).

Now the ball is in flight, for some reason Iraola has turned to face the ball which is not great technique (in reality probably just not great animation!), but none the less he is still moving towards the space where the ball is going to land which will put him almost through on goal

In actual fact the ball was a little long and it pushed him just wide of the 2 DC, but Iraola, the 33yr old converted fullack, shows love skill to cut inside and hammer home through the keeper from a tight angle.

So there we have it, the tweak in action. There are a couple of things i take from this:

1) Despite my clear belief in my system and my philosophy of not changing my principles, and not altering our football DNA, I can still make tweaks. This change did not alter the fact that we are team based on high press, teamwork, and fast technical football in the final 3rd. If anything it helped us to adhere to the final part of that

2) When making a change, any change, be very aware of knock on effects which might not be immediately obvious or come to mind as you make the change.

[MrKeithSmooth]

One of the more interesting threads on here, constantly checking whether you've done an update. I think a lot of people focus on the youth these days, or at least see the importance of doing so, but I feel like there's still not enough people who take it that extra mile and really focus on developing them perfectly. Also, love the whole Basque only rule. Makes it just that little bit more interesting.

[Jambo98]

One of the more interesting threads on here, constantly checking whether you've done an update. I think a lot of people focus on the youth these days, or at least see the importance of doing so, but I feel like there's still not enough people who take it that extra mile and really focus on developing them perfectly. Also, love the whole Basque only rule. Makes it just that little bit more interesting.

Thanks Keith, glad you enjoy. There are 2 other excellent youth focused threads going from Cleon and rashidi, both of whom probably have far more expertise than me I wanted to take the concept of youth development and expand it into something bigger. A club can be youth development based, but it still needs to have other aspects to be well run machine. Tactics, training, staff, transfers and many other moving parts make up a club and youth development on its own would not be a success.

Dipped into the transfer market ahead of season 2 as my scouts found a couple of nice u18 prospects.

[ifinnem]

Great to see someone taking the time to document all this. I too wonder about which are the key stats for some of those staff...

The only thing that surprised me is that you plan to delay tutoring - why would you risk stagnating a youth with a poor personality for several years before he gets tutored?

Seems like without being able to sign Spanish U18s on FM15 this is not only a lot more challenging but also not that fun personally...

[Jambo98]

Great to see someone taking the time to document all this. I too wonder about which are the key stats for some of those staff...

The only thing that surprised me is that you plan to delay tutoring - why would you risk stagnating a youth with a poor personality for several years before he gets tutored?

Seems like without being able to sign Spanish U18s on FM15 this is not only a lot more challenging but also not that fun personally...

Glad some of it is useful for people

I think you might have mis-read something (or i have mis-represented it!) - I dont delay tutoring at all, i do that right from day 1. The bit i have opted to delay until age 18 is PPMs, and its something i am still considering. I did worry that it might impact the training related growth in years 1/2, but my experience thus far is that the training growth in year 1/2 is not as high as i expected anyway. It might be that i am not giving up much at all to add the PPMs.

I will probably split into 2 groups -with one learning PPMs at 16 and the others at 18.

Also just realised i never did a proper end of season udpdate, which i guess i should get round to doing

[Jambo98]

Season 1 - The (belated) review

So clearly i am a bit out of sequence here, but it is worth going back to summarise season 1. Just listened to Neil Lennon on telly making a point (when asked about what he had changed when he came in to Bolton) - "You can talk all you want about projects and philosophies, but you have to get results on the pitch" - Very true and pertinent. Little point in me prattling on about creating a footballing DNA, how it all links together etc, and focussing on the future via the Youth Development programme if i am going to get my ar$e handed to me in the here and now.

So season 1 came to a close. IT was a season where we started to establish our club DNA, put into action on the field the style of play that we want to run deep through our club, and a season when we kicked off our youth based approach.

Liga BBVA

So going into the season media expected 6th and the board asked for European qualification. My personal aim was to secure 4th, I expected that the "big 3" would be beyond us in season 1. The transfer restrictions meant i couldn't expect to strengthen my squad much and Bara/Real/Athletico have very strong squads.

To finish 3rd and some 9pts clear of Athletico represents a very good season and a victory for our way of approaching the game. The "big 2" remain way in the distance, and will be hard to crack considering we cant expect our squad to get any stronger over the next 2 years. The goals for was pretty good, but our defensive record took a bit of a beating with some of the issues described earlier in the thread.

Champions League

So overall this has to go as a bit of a missed opportunity. When we draw Arsenal in the playoff round i was gutted. Hardest possible tie and so early in the season that i did not feel that my team would have time to adapt to my DNA approach. But we did brilliantly to get through it. Then the group was the opposite - could not have possibly asked for a better draw! We got through it, after a poor first and last game. Then the last 16 was also a reasonably kind draw to us. Porto should have been beatable, but it game at a time when we were dealing with our tactical daemons. Really disappointed to go out when we had such a favorable draw.

Spanish Cup

Probably my most rage inducing match of the season. 3 nil to our most bitter rivals. That hurt. Second leg did nothing to make up for it.

The squad performance

As you can see, a real spread of goals across the side, partly because of the formation change mid season. Munian the obvious stand out, also De Marcos was excellent and consistent. Lots of games for one of our top prospects, Unia Lopez.

The Youth development

As you can see, the 4 identified prospects were fairly slow in developing in the attributes i tracked. This was despite good game time for 3 of the 4. Celihueta was the main gain. Disapointed with the progress made by Unia Lopez, but youth development is not a short term task. I do need to step back and review my training approach and man management (eg which squad they are housed in) as well as my youth coaches.

So overall a very good first season, but learnings t be had and development to be made as we head to season 2

[ifinnem]

Glad some of it is useful for people

I think you might have mis-read something (or i have mis-represented it!) - I dont delay tutoring at all...

"Tutoring will be used from age 17 onwards, lining up my first team members with good personality types to top prospects"

This is the statement that I went off of

[Jambo98]

"Tutoring will be used from age 17 onwards, lining up my first team members with good personality types to top prospects"

This is the statement that I went off of

Ah my apologies, written so much in this thread that i forgot that bit

I have not actually stuck to this - I have tutored right away, although so far all my youths have at least what i would call "good" personality types to start with. I think i should state that i was wrong with that principle, the thinking was allowing them a year to naturally develop before hooking up with an experienced first teamer.

A few tactical things are annoying me at the moment in this system and it is just not quite "perfect". Some of my issues:

1) The "attacking 3" (the 2 AM's and the CM(a)) - i need to get working just right together. At the moment sometimes it clicks nicely, other times it doesnt quite. To be a consistent goal scoring thread i need to make sure every aspects of these 3 roles is well thought out in relation to each other.

2) The DW - After the strikerless tweak made them suddenly more attacking, something somewhere that i must have changed has made them revert to not getting forward often enough. Hugely frustrating as i did not think i had changed a damn thing! I need to look at it carefully, and even consider whether against lesser sides these guys should just be wingers with more pressing added.

3) Keeper distribution - I dont think this "bug" is every going away in FM. I have Ruffier set to shorter distribution, distribute to CB's, roll it out. No matter what settings i used, at least 4 times per game he kicks long. Utterly infuriating. It might only be 4 out of on average about 25 times he has the ball in a game, but its annoying that i cannot make him stick to my instructions. It is not specific to him, as i have always had this problem with every team and tactic i have used in FM15.

4) Free kicks - We seem to get a huge amount of free kicks in the 25 - 35 yard from goal range per game, and every single time we shoot and i think possibly 1 out of about 50 has gone in. I have changed my free kick settings to "short" (it was "best header") but it doesnt seem to matter. I even changed the free kick taker to someone "worse" at free kicks to see if that would reduce the chances of him trying a shot, but to no avail. Anyone else come across this and have a solution?

Overall i just need to get a bit of consistency back. We had a wonderful game at home to Bayern in the CL, a 2 nil win and more possession, more passes, more chances than one of the best in Europe. Our next CL game saw us lose away to Macabi Haifa. Consistency is what i need to strive to achieve, and at times in a pressing system that can be hard. One player "not suited" or one role/duty not suited to the system can bring it all crashing down. However we stick to our DNA and forward we go

4)

[Jambo98]

Making a change - Adapting but not throwing it all out the window

So its been a while since i updated, and partly because i took a break from this save.

I started to struggle more and more with the tactic, the 3 man defense and strikerless didnt work how i wanted it to, and i started to let the little "bugs" in the ME really get to me and it was spoiling my enjoyment. The keeper distribution, the non reaction to rebounds, the same "type" of penalty award and the back passes which go out for a corner became the main things i noticed, rather than the very nice bits of tactical play.

So i took a break to consider things. There are flaws in the ME for sure, but i know from experience i can still have a 95% enjoyable save and just have to accept the 5%. However it was pretty clear that there were 2 very seperate things causing my frustration. The ME bugs were clouding the real issue, which is that my tactical approach was not suitable. IT just wasnt working with these players in this league. Going off and running a half season with Newcastle showed me that with a setup i likea nd trust i can still enjoy the game and just shrug off the rebounds and backpasses (keeper distribution however, will send me to an early grave!!).

So i came back to this with the view that i had to make a tactical change. This was hard to accept since my original approach was all about a single DNA throughout the club, not changing our approach. However, i wanted to have a careful think about what needed to be done. IF i rip up the book and suddenly impliment a deep counter attack style, or tiki taka patient game, then i really am changing the clubs DNA, and throwing away the work i had done.

I looked back at my "tactical principles" (since the other principles will be unaffected by a change to tactics). Here they are again:

Tactical Principles:

• We will play attacking football which focuses on high energy, pressing, quick movement, possession and above all teamwork.
  
• When we have the ball, we will use technically proficient players to create varied attacks and mixed focal points without risking possession unnecessarily.
  
• When we do not have the ball, we will operate as a team to press and win the ball back
  
• We will impose ourselves on our opponents first and foremost and be reactive only when strictly necessary. Let our opponents be the ones to react to us.
  

I already had in my mind that i wanted to go back to my trusted and favourite 451 tactic. I love the balance, i love the outcomes and i have complete faith in my ability to manage it. Before deciding to do this, i wanted to "tick back" against my principles.

Point 1 - Yes, it operates on "standard" mentality but we feature 5 attack duties, and that doesnt include the striker, so we are very much attack focused. Quick movement - Yup, F9 goes one way, central winger goes the other, wide men get into thebox. Possession? Hmm, its not centred around this but neither is it counter based, so i think we are borderline but ok. Pressing? Yup it features "Push higher up" and "press more" and of course teamwork aligns to those instructions

Point 2 - Yes, its very varied. The CM runs at men, the F9 draws people out, the WM cut inside and the CWB give us high width. One of the things i love about the 451 is the variety of goals i score with it.

Point 3 - Again the 2 TI i mention ensure we do this. A part of my thought process was also that my 451 does not "look" like a pressing system so much with the roles and duties. We have 2 DLP who dont press. But another way to look at it was that my original shape here had 4 "non pressers" (back 3 plus DLP). This tactic has the same number (2 x CB and 2 x DLP) as the fullbacks press high, the CM harries other DMs, and the wide men engage opposition players actively. I am fine with the level of pressing created by it

Point 4 - This is not formation based really, but we stick to it in that 451 will now always be our starting tactic rather than adapting to suit the opposition.

So having satisfied (Deluded? ) myself that we are not betraying our principles, i also wanted to touch on another point.

MAny of us will undergo this during a save, particularly a long term one - the change of formation/tactic. It is vitally important to consider the impact on your squad shape. You need to consider things like:

- Do i have players suited to every position of my new tactic?

- If not, do i have the transfer funds and interested targets to bring someone suitable in?

- Which players in my squad might lose playing time as a result of this change?

- Which players might gain playing time?

- Will it lead to me playing anyone in a more/less suited position/role/duty and if so, how might his impact the overall team performance?

- Does it weaken my depth chart in any specific area?

- Does it unblock or further block the path to the first team for my top youth players?

For my squad, the net effect of the changes is that a central defender will lose his place, and his replacement will actually be a central attacking midfielder (slightly more complicated overall - My MR goes back to DR and my AMC moves to MR. My ML goes back to DL and my CM moves to ML, meaning the remaining gap is a CM(a) ) . In player terms, i am happy. Gurpegi drops out, as he was ageing and declining anway and Unia Lopez now moves from being a utility player to having a clear starting position every week.

Depth wise however, it leaves me a touch exposed in a couple of positions, one of which is not surprisingly fullback (since we previously didnt play any).

Left back - At first glance, we have no great LB in the squad. Aurtentxe has LB as his best position, but i dont consider him to be first 11 class. De Marcos will play there, since he was excellent as a DW on the left and his PPMs and even beign wrong footed suit this somewhat, but he is a little weak defensively for the big games. Rather annoylingly, the only good Basque left back, Monreal was just let go by Arsenal a few months ago for a cheap price, but i didnt need him at the time so he went to Lazio. I also dont have any youth left backs coming through so might have to get creative here. For now De Marcos and Aurtentxe will share duties.

On the right side i am actually ok. Iraola is best suited to RB, and Mikel Rico is also a very good attacking fullback option.

Wide midfield - The starting options here are actually very good, although neither played wide in my previous tactic. Raul Garcia's PPM make him a great choice and he can comfortably play in the RM slot. On the left Markel Susueta will move out and his attacking instincts and inverted footedness are both great plus points. The slight issue is depth. I have 2 players who are happy at either MC or AML/AMR, but neither can play MR/ML at all. They will be retrained and provide the depth. Both are young which is good. De Marcos can also easily move forward one slot when needed.

In terms of my youth, it probably creates an easier route for a few because of the 2 x DLP. Previously one of Arteta and Ituraspe had to play out of role slightly, but now both can be DLP and backing them up i have a couple of prospects who can get some game time, rather than those 2 sharing it. My best DC prospect can also play RB, which might get him some more game time.

When i took the plunge and made the change, the first game was against Athletico. The same team who murdered us the last time we played near the end of last season, and our big rivals for 3rd place. I had one of those kind of reactions you can only hope for when you change tactics. We walloped them 5 nil. Clearly i dont expect it to be that good every week, but a lovely start and vindication of the change.

I am about to hit January when i will properly review the development of my youths, both those from my intake last season and 3 that i paid good cash for to sign in the summer transfer window.

Hopefuly of those thoughts around making a change and thinking about the ripple effects can help a few people

[Guest]

A very interesting thread Jambo.

[Jambo98]

Cheers Ivan

So uh, we just played Barca in the Spanish cup. First leg away from home i played a few youths mixed in, figuring might as well throw them in the lions den as we were hit by lack of fitness etc. We lost 2 v 1 but were completely out played.

Then comes the return leg at San Mames. This time we had pretty much a fully fit line up but still a couple of backups were given a chance.

So, the first half......

Fair to expect a bit of a reaction from Barca after a first half like that, so how would the second half go....

Score 8 against barca?? Really?? Win by 5 goals against barca!?!

To be fair, we had less possession, less shots and one less CCC, but we were absolutely lethal on the counter attack. Schooled them

[Torskus77]

I wouldn't beat yourself up over changing a few elements of the DNA, the best laid plans in the world usually need adjusting. Better that, than persisting with something that isn't working, or isn't what you wanted. Your only just at the beginning of your journey at the moment, and the key principles are still pretty much in place.

8 goals v Barcelona, amazing stuff, it's a great feeling isn't it. I recently battered Chelsea 5-1 away in my Walsall save, and they are a very strong Chelsea side, I'd lost the last 4 meetings against them, which the media (and mourinho who is still in charge) had great fun in pointing out. I studied the games v them for about an hour or so, wrote down a lot of things, came up with a plan, and boom.

Please keep updating if you have time, I may not post much, mainly down to time, sometimes it's a straight choice between an hour on FM, or writing on the forum, but I really am enjoying this thread, as I did with your 4-5-1 thread.

[Reggiana]

Great thread Jambo, and changing tactics has certainly given an extra area for you to write about. The implications for the squad is something I never really consider before changing tactics, but I suppose you have to once you are more limited in terms of transfer policy.

Is your 4-5-1 a flat 5 in the midfield?

[Jambo98]

I wouldn't beat yourself up over changing a few elements of the DNA, the best laid plans in the world usually need adjusting. Better that, than persisting with something that isn't working, or isn't what you wanted. Your only just at the beginning of your journey at the moment, and the key principles are still pretty much in place.

8 goals v Barcelona, amazing stuff, it's a great feeling isn't it. I recently battered Chelsea 5-1 away in my Walsall save, and they are a very strong Chelsea side, I'd lost the last 4 meetings against them, which the media (and mourinho who is still in charge) had great fun in pointing out. I studied the games v them for about an hour or so, wrote down a lot of things, came up with a plan, and boom.

Please keep updating if you have time, I may not post much, mainly down to time, sometimes it's a straight choice between an hour on FM, or writing on the forum, but I really am enjoying this thread, as I did with your 4-5-1 thread.

Thanks - I think its more about putting across the point that you can change, but you need to consider the change and its impacts and ripple effects in full. A lot of people make sweeping changes and wonder why it wont work. The game (Fm itself as much as the sport) has a great number of different factors to consider outside of the shape of the 11 players you send out.

Great thread Jambo, and changing tactics has certainly given an extra area for you to write about. The implications for the squad is something I never really consider before changing tactics, but I suppose you have to once you are more limited in terms of transfer policy.

Is your 4-5-1 a flat 5 in the midfield?

The transfer policy was a factor, but even at other clubs you should give it much more thought than just assuming "oh i will just sell my wingers and buy fullbacks and it will be fine". You need to consider the impacts of new players, gelling, morale etc.

The 451 is flat yes, its from my other thread on here titled 451 - The swiss army knife of formations

[Jambo98]

Well, season 2 is now in the books and to be honest, it felt like a bit of a disappointment and a slog at times. As i covered above, we changed our formation midseason, whilst retaining our core principles. This had a short term bump effect, but over the rest of the season we were still below standard. We still are not right tactically. Season 2 summary and findings/points of discussion below:

La Liga

So although it felt like a worse season, we actually ended up in the same spot as last season (3rd) and with only 3pts less. So on pure results/outcome, the season was not bad. We didnt really expect to get in amongst Barca and Real, but the backwards progress in points is disappointing. IN truth, Athletico had plenty chances to overhaul us but had a pretty poor second half of the season themselves.

Copa Del Rey

A better run this year took us all the way to the final, overcoming another first leg horror show against Sociedad, but Real Madrid were just too strong for us in the final. Disappointing as we have such a great cup heritage and I want to protect that so always play strong teams in this competition when possible. Of course, the 8 v 3 demolition of Barca, including 5 in the first half, is a result that will live long in the memory!

Europe

We went right into the group stages this year, but got a bit of a group of death with Juve and Bayern. We were spirited, including beating Bayern at San Memes and drawing with Juve at home. But ultimately those 2 were a class above, and a massively disappointing away defeat to Maccabi Tel-Aviv put us well out of the reckoning. We did get 3rd place and parachute into the Europe League where we put in one of our best performances of the season (behind the 8 goals against barca!!) to overcome Dortmund. Unfortunately we drew Spurs, who are my bogey team in FM15 and narrowly lost out on away goals, after 2 set piece goals in the second leg. A missed opportunity.

Deep Dive Tactical/Player Analysis

Ok, so this is the TTF, not career updates forum, so lets get to something a bit more relevant. Lets start to delve a bit deeper into analysis of a season and finding out our strengths and weaknesses through a retrospective look at the finer details.

If we start by looking back up at the league table screenshot above, right away i can see a big part of my problem - Goals. We scored 79 in the league last year, 63 this. Our defensive record is better meaning our overall GD isnt that far different, but the lack of goals can cost us morale and crucial points.

We can then look at the home/away splits:

As you can see, we are somewhat better at home, with only one defeat (a few too many draws). Away there are too many defeats in games we should be winning. This needs to be addressed if we are to progress next season. Thats knowledge in the bank as we continue to analyse.

Squad analysis

Next we set up a custom view to take a look at some squad analysis.

Headlines from my analysis of these stats.

Goal scoring and assists

• Arteta as top scorer confirms my previous fear about goal scoring. He had an utterly bizarre season. He took, and scored 17 penalties. I have found that my 451 always generates more penalties as we spend a lot of time in and around the opposing box, but 17 in a season is pretty insane, and probably not sustainable. Kudos to the little man for slotting all 17 away though.
  
• Munian, who should be one of my absolute key and best players, did not score often enough. Although the F9 is a creative role, i expect him to score more. He is a great fit for F9, with the ability to come deep, turn and beat a man and should also be on the end of moves in the box - The later is where it is falling down.
  
• Good goal scoring contributions from Raul Garcia and Susueta who were our primary WM. This is inline with expectations. They also provided a good number of assists, although i would like to bump those numbers up just a touch
  
• My central winger, Unia Lopez, was a bit disappointing. This is a key role in the tactic and 10 goals with 7 assists is not great for that position. I would like at least 15 and 12 next season from this role, although we must consider that from August to Dec we had a different tactic.
  
• Assist from fullbacks are ok. A little hard to see at first, because both positions were shared. But Iraola + Rico and De Marcos + Monreal give me enough assist from that position.
  

Passing

• The DLP's make a lot of passes and are very neat and tidy players. Good pass completion % and good passes per 90, also a healthy dose of key passes. Arteta is given more freedom to create as the support of the pair, but he might not be ideally suited to this as he gets older. I would like the support DLP to have more key passes.
  
• Unia Lopez, in the CM(a) position, attempts more passes than i would like. This guy is meant to be a central winger and dribble, dribble, dribble. He also has an 80% completion rate which is simply not good enough.
  
• Low pass completion ratios from the wide men is disappointing and a touch surprising. We do not cross the ball a lot, as these guys both cut inside and get into the box, so cant blame that. This is going to be about passing options and space and further analysis later is likely to make more sense out of this.
  
• Laporte has a woeful pass completion rate. This will be slightly skewed by the fact that the ME counts clearances as passes (might get fixed one of these years), but i know from watching games that he also waste balls. This might need more looking into. On the face of it, we are set to "play out of defence" and he has at least one DLP stationed right infront of him, so should often have an easy pass. No PPM's at play here either
  
• Nice high number of key passes from Munian tells me that the creative part of the F9 is working fairly well, just needs the scoring part to kick on.
  
• My absolutely most annoying part of the entire game. My keeper and his 75% pass completion rate. I have tried everything to make him listen to his PI to not kick it long, i have varied who i tell him to give it to, but still at least 4 or 5 times per 90 he punts it when he has a clear short pass, and has clear instructions to take it. I know its bugged and has been for ages, nothing i can do about it other than grumble.
  

Dribbling and shooting

• F9 role gives me lots of dribbling, which is what i want. I like the Messi style - create the space and then BOOM, get into that space with the ball at your feet. I clearly dont have Messi, but Munian is a good dribbler
  
• Quite a big disparity between the wide men - Susueta dribbles lots but Garcia does not. This is down to player types and PPMs. They are totally different types of player and i dont mind that.
  
• My central winger, who should be dribbling more than anyone, is way down the list and has a very low dribbles per game. I need to consider whether i have the right player type here, but also store this knowledge for when i look in depth at tactical analysis.
  
• Munian clearly shoots from distance too much. High shots/90 and low shots on target % is not a good combo.
  
• Laporte looks to have really high shots/90 and low % - This is because he is our free kick taker and we seem to win lots of free kicks in the 20 - 35 range per game. More than 3 per game on average. He always shoots, which i have tried to change, and although he scored 3 or 4 stunners through the season, he wasted far more. I have yet to find a setting to stop him even trying the shot from anything over 25yards or so.
  
• Susueta has a low shot on target % and he gets into some good positions. He is playing "inverted" and lots of times he is cutting in so he should be on his good foot. Perhaps a PPM is needed here given his shots are often from an angle.
  

So that is the player/squad statistical analysis. It is usefull for sure, and should always be undertaken, but on its own it doesnt mean much. What i have identified are a number of "problems" (amongst some positives), but I have not identified the root cause, therefore in a lot of cases i either cant go about fixing, or a i risk applying the wrong fix. This needs to be supported by analysis of the tactical situation, which comes in the next post

[Columnarius]

One solution might be to play a 4-2-3-1 at home, allowing you to press higher up the field and where you can bring 6 players into the attack around the box (2WBs, 2 CMs, 3AM/IFs/Ws and 1F) rather than the 5 who would typically come up in a 4-5-1 (2WBs, 2Ws/CMs, 1 F). That might convert some of your draws into wins.

For away, perhaps you are simply facing the limit of your team's ability to play a high pressing game against confident teams who are playing moderate to aggressively against you? It is tough to press away.

[Jambo98]

One solution might be to play a 4-2-3-1 at home, allowing you to press higher up the field and where you can bring 6 players into the attack around the box (2WBs, 2 CMs, 3AM/IFs/Ws and 1F) rather than the 5 who would typically come up in a 4-5-1 (2WBs, 2Ws/CMs, 1 F). That might convert some of your draws into wins.

For away, perhaps you are simply facing the limit of your team's ability to play a high pressing game against confident teams who are playing moderate to aggressively against you? It is tough to press away.

Actually, interestingly my analysis is telling me the opposite. I would originally have thought along those lines, but i went through all the games we lost or drew after changing to my new tactic, and a couple patterns were clear:

1) Against "easier opponents", mostly at home, we often have a lot of shots, but too many long shots and a lot of moves break down. Part of the reason for this is that a lot of Spanish teams play a 42211 - 2 DM's, ML/MR, AMC and ST. This solid base of 2 DMs and ML/MR can blunt my system a bit. The 2 DMs flood the space where my F9 and CM(a) are trying to operate. and the ML/MR tend to give much better defensive cover against my WM than other systems. Also the 4 central players makes it less space for them to cut into. When you take into account that we are on the front foot in games of this nature, we find space hard to find. And as we all know, space is the most valuable of all commodities on the football field

2) Against "bigger teams" and sometimes away from home, we are pushed deep often. We often find ourselfs with average positions for the entire team inside our own half. This is often an issue against the 4123 formation (DM, 2xMC, AML/AMR, ST) which a lot of the better teams operate. We are generally not on the front foot here, so we drop deeper and deeper. Our focal point being an F9 means he drops deep, the entire team gets deeper and we cant get out.

This leads me to an interesting thought. IT actually feels like i need to be a little counter intuitive here. In the "easier" games, we need to drop deeper. We need to find space and draw the other teams wide mean and 2 DMs out so we can use our attacking fast movement to its best effect. This could be either through removing "higher defensive line" shout, or even notching back on mentality to "counter".

In the bigger games, its more tricky. I could say i need to push up even more, or increase my mentality, but that is very risky against the quality of sides we are talking about. My initial thought here is to consider changing my striker role in these games to make him stop dropping so deep, and see if that can pull the team forward. The risk, of course, is that he simply becomes isolated upfield. I could also consider going to 4411 to mitigate this a little. Move my CM(a) into perhaps AM(s) and cause the opposition more of a problem.

Interesting problems to deal with, particularly since at Bilbao, I cannot simply go out and buy better players. My youths are developing but at least another season before any are ready to be better than my first 11, so i need to find ways to get the best out of the 11 i have.

[Columnarius]

In your OP, you said you wanted to stick to your philosophy home and away.

You might press high at home but slow it down a bit as you look for an opening in their solidly defensive shape.

Likewise, you might push up away to try to stop dropping so deep.

I'm curious to see which way you go and how it works out.

[Jambo98]

In your OP, you said you wanted to stick to your philosophy home and away.

You might press high at home but slow it down a bit as you look for an opening in their solidly defensive shape.

Likewise, you might push up away to try to stop dropping so deep.

I'm curious to see which way you go and how it works out.

The first part is a fair observation - i did say that. I think its not so much home/away that is my issue, its the quality of opposition. Also, its key to understand the difference between "philosophy" and "formation/tactic". I can stick to my philosophy quite easily even with changing a strikers role and moving a CM to AM. I will still be based on pressing, teamwork and fast technical attacking approach.

One of the ways i may look to push the team forward is by changing one of my DLP to RPM. I have signed Ander Herrera who will suit this role, which gives an extra midfield getting a touch further forward, without exposing us too much.

I firmly believe i can adapt within my principles. I need to play around a bit to find the right combination. Almost certain that i need to drop a bit deeper or reduce mentality against smaller teams, but keep everything else similar - We still press, we are still fast and technical and varied points of attack.

Youth Development remains a focus and i will do some screenshots of how my players have developed.

[gf_bay]

Looking forward to your youth update.

Are you still sticking with Kim Vilfort as your Head of Youth? Coincidently he also happens to be my head of youth on the Gladbach save I just started. I was'nt sure wheter or not he would be ideal. He is no Phil Cannon or Bruno Conti. But his personality is better - probably the closest anyone can get to a model citizen staff (+ 16 for every personality trait exc. controversy) ingame. But due to his somewhat 'low judging player potential' I was a bit concerned that the annual youth intakes might only include great personalties but hardly any future superstars. Is he making sure the intake features some great future prospects in Bilbao?

[Jambo98]

Still have Vilfort at the moment, i always look around every 6 months to see if my staff can be improved, but Vilfort in my save has 14 for JPA. I cant know for certain about all of his personality stats, but based on this personality type and media handling style i can tell he has a lot of positives.

He produced some absolute gems in my first intake (posted a bit higher up), second was not quite as spectacular but still very good. We do have some of the best youth setup in world football which clearly heavily influences this.

Youth Update - Part 1

Season 0 - Original prospects/signings

Unia Lopez

Starting point

Now

Celihueta

Starting Point

Now

Gorka Calvo

Starting point

Now

Asier Villlalibre

Starting point

Now

Season 1 - Youth Signings

Juan Carlos Bakero

Starting point

Now

Bote Esono Eyang

Starting Point

Now

So there are some examples of growth. Lopez has been a first team regular, Celihueta has had the next most game time followed by Calva and Villalibre who have had limited first team chances but have both played in the B team. Bakero is a year later in starting but has had some first team football in that first year, and might be one of the best prospects we have.

Will post up the rest of my youths in a separate post

[Jambo98]

Season 1 - Youth Intake

Jon Sola

Starting Point

Now

Inigo Franco

Starting Point

Now

Roberto Pascual

Starting Point

Now

Gorka Perez

Starting Point

Now

This lot of course a newer, but Franco in particular has played a good chunk of first team football. Sola has been injury hit, and the other 2 played a fair bit for the B team. Time for them to really kick on next season. I also need to review my U19 coaches and perhaps do a proper experiment of U19 v B team for development.

[edtheguy]

This leads me to an interesting thought. IT actually feels like i need to be a little counter intuitive here. In the "easier" games, we need to drop deeper. We need to find space and draw the other teams wide mean and 2 DMs out so we can use our attacking fast movement to its best effect. This could be either through removing "higher defensive line" shout, or even notching back on mentality to "counter".

In the bigger games, its more tricky. I could say i need to push up even more, or increase my mentality, but that is very risky against the quality of sides we are talking about. My initial thought here is to consider changing my striker role in these games to make him stop dropping so deep, and see if that can pull the team forward. The risk, of course, is that he simply becomes isolated upfield. I could also consider going to 4411 to mitigate this a little. Move my CM(a) into perhaps AM(s) and cause the opposition more of a problem.

Interesting problems to deal with, particularly since at Bilbao, I cannot simply go out and buy better players. My youths are developing but at least another season before any are ready to be better than my first 11, so i need to find ways to get the best out of the 11 i have.

I just saw this and wanted to chime in. I use a very similar tactic to your 'swiss army knife' in my long term save, currently as Nice in Ligue 1, and against weaker teams I usually have to draw them out to find any joy. What works (most of the time) for me is dropping the push higher shout, adding tighter marking, run at defense and work ball into box. I just make those changes and don't touch mentality, roles or duties and it usually works very well. I'd like to say these changes were well thought out and I had very good reasons for them but to be honest it was just trial and error. It's been working forme for over two seasons though so I haven't looked the gift horse in the mouth....

I have also found that I have to be more aggressive against the tougher teams, but those games are (understandably) more tricky.

[Jambo98]

I just saw this and wanted to chime in. I use a very similar tactic to your 'swiss army knife' in my long term save, currently as Nice in Ligue 1, and against weaker teams I usually have to draw them out to find any joy. What works (most of the time) for me is dropping the push higher shout, adding tighter marking, run at defense and work ball into box. I just make those changes and don't touch mentality, roles or duties and it usually works very well. I'd like to say these changes were well thought out and I had very good reasons for them but to be honest it was just trial and error. It's been working forme for over two seasons though so I haven't looked the gift horse in the mouth....

I have also found that I have to be more aggressive against the tougher teams, but those games are (understandably) more tricky.

Thanks Ed, appreciate the input

I think there is nothing wrong with occasionally finding something with trial and error - the key is probably then understanding why it works, regardless of how you found it. That will help if/when you need to make subsequent tweaks. If ii look at the shouts you mention:

Dropping push higher - An obvious one for drawing teams out - drop a bit deeper, more space to operate in, more chance to get in behind the defensive opposition.

Run at defense - If you have better players, particularly good dribblers, then this one will help unlock it perhaps. Sometimes breaking down a parked bus is a moment of individual skill and this will encourage that

Work ball into box - Obvious again, you will often be faced with a wall of defenders and the natural inclination might be to shoot from distance (See S Gerrard v Chelsea last year!) - this will somewhat reverse that trend

Tight Marking - I cant possibly fathom how this is working! Might be a placebo effect - you added it and had a good result so you think it helps, but really i would be doubtful!

Run at defense is a good idea, one i had not really considered. I will have a look at adding it, as well as dropping the team deeper which i had already said i would implement. I am also considering a bit of "swap position" in these games. I have 3 or 4 players who could all cover similar roles (WM, F9 and CM(a)). I wouldnt do this against bigger teams as it can mess a bit with organisation, but once or twice against defensive teams it might help.

I have still to come up with how i will stop myself being forced deep against Barca/Real/CL teams, but i am leaning towards changing the F9 role, and possibly even CM(a) to AMC to force my defensive shape to be a bit more aggressive. We still retain the solid base and our team DNA, but it might just mitigate it a bit. I could go overboard and go "control" and "Push much higher" in these games, but that would likely be a bad idea. I need to just subtly improve things bit by bit.

Starting off season 3 now, First game is home to newly promoted Mallorca, then away to Barca. 2 nice chances to try out each new approach right off the bat!

[Jambo98]

So an update on how i have tried to adapt things to deal with my 2 "problem" scenarios

Against big/better teams

I have employed 2 different approaches to this so far, with varied results

Approach 1 - Away to Barca - This was my second game of the season, and probably the hardest fixture on the calander. I was really worried about being pushed deep as barca always do, and also wanted to use the space they give up on the flanks by playing with a front 3. I moved to 4411. My CM(a) became an AM(s) and my striker role changed from F9(s) to be DLF(a) - i wanted to have this guy help the team not drop too deep.

Did it work? Hmmm... We lost the game 4 v 0, which would suggest a resounding "No",but actually we played much better than the scoreline suggested. The first goal they scored game form a wierd situation. Monreal intercepted a through ball in my area nicely, then Suarez clearly trips him (no contact with the ball on the replay) and is left with a tap in. No idea how the goal was allowed, but what can you do. To cap it off, the second then comes from the keeper clearance bug (despite beign told to pass it short and distribute to defence, and having passing options open, he kicks it right to a barca midfielder who slots in Messi to score). The last 2 came in the last 10mins as we chased the game. We had plenty possesion and shots, created a couple of chances and away at Barca a couple is maybe as much as i could expect. It was better than before but still not ideal.

Approach 2 - Away to Man City - The CL drew me with City, and second fixture in the group took me to the Ethiad. This time round, i stuck to my 451, but i asked changed mentality to "control" and i utilised my players in a different way. We were up against 442, and i opted for Munian in the CM(a) role with Garcia as the F9(s) - The power and strength of Garcia to help us relieve pressure, and Munian to exploit space against City's 442.

Did it work? Yes. We won 2 nil and that flattered city. They created a couple of chances as you would expect with the world class squad they have, but we were not pinned back and we created lots going forward. We should have scored more than 2 in reality. The combo of control mentality and the player tweaks, with a couple of ingame tweaks (exploit the flanks after they pushed wingers higher up the pitch) allowed us to look far more comfortable.

The second approach is one i have tried in the only other game which was a "big team" which was away to Valencia, we drew 2 all but it was another wierd game. We gave away 2 really silly goals, one from a corner then one from an IFK, not much i could do about either. We dominated either side of those goals and created plenty chances whilst conceding little of note in the way of chances.

Against smaller teams/parked buses

The change here has been simply to drop the shout "push higher up", and on some occasions even add "drop deeper" to help create space. I have not done it every time - i watch the game to see how we look early with our standard approach, at times others are not defensive and we can just break through without changes.

Has it worked? Yes, but frustratingly my results are not always reflecting it. We have dropped points against Betis, Rayo and Deportivo. In each game we have not only been the better side but crucially, compared to last season, created plenty of chances. Each game we had at least 5 clear chances to score (my tally from watching - not the ingame "CCC" count which is nonsense). The problem this season is not creating chances, it is puting them in the net. Not a huge amount i can do about that with the limited players i have available, other than ride it out and hope the touch in front of goal returns. In the main it has, we have won other "easier" games against the likes of Elche, Celta and Granada.

I am being more proactive in game, i think maybe season 2 i was a bit jaded and fed up with some aspects of the current ME, so i probably let ingame management slide a bit. Back to active management (as you should always be) and if i can put the ball in the net a bit more often, we will be progressing.

[Jambo98]

Having taken a break from this save for a bit whilst i did my community experiment thing, i found myself drawn back to it. I still want to take this on to the next level, show the youths integrating nicely as a result of being groomed in the club DNA way of doing things.

Tactically, i still want to show that how to try and adapt against big teams. In some ways it is the converse of many of the "problem" threads on here - Lots of people struggle against smaller sides but i have the opposite issue still to fully address.

In terms of progress now, few things going on:

- We have made a major signing. The one i had been waiting for, Griezmann finally agreed to join me. Cost me £25million and £100K per week, but he is worth it. He could be the final "basque" piece. Having already added Ander Herrera, we now have pretty much the best set of Basques we can get. Inigo is out of reach at Real, Javi is out of reach at Man City, Illari is available but not good enough to get in my side, Alonso is too old now as is Llorente. Perhaps the only one i would really add if i could is Azpilicueta since i am a bit short in fullbacks! What Griezmann adds is another notch of quality, and versatility. I have been taking full advantage of the fact that Raul Garcia, Iker Munian, Markel Susueta and Ibai Gomez are all different types of players, but capable of playing the same roles and duties. The combinations are endless:

1) Garcia upfront, Munian at CM, Susueta and Gomez wide - For when i need strength and holding up ability in the F9 role. Usually against tough teams or when teams are using 2 DMs to crowd that space.

2) Munian at F9, Susueta and Garcia wide - The original setup. When Munian has space to play as F9 his dribbing ability can be really used. Garcia can still power into the box from wide taking full advantage of his PPMs

3) Munian at F9, Garcia at CM, Susueta and Gomez wide - A different take on where the power and strength might be needed - Up against at tough central midfield i have employed this on occasion. Garcia plays the CM(a) role very differently than my other technical tricky options, and again his PPMs an long shots can hep us

Add Greizmann to this mix, and we have such an array of attacking setups that i can employ without changing a single tactical instruction. I cant claim the credit for deciding to employ such a fluid setup (in terms of personell) - i was inspired by llama writing the thread linked below - well worth a read:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/419347-Variety-and-Subtlety-Getting-the-extra-points-out-of-your-team

The second progression has been starting to really integrate my youths as first team players. Inigo Franco has started just under half our games, Celihueta appeared in all but 5 games (with 11 starts). Bakero also has 9 appearances already and even Jon Sola has started to progress after been given a taster of first team action. Crucially, our B team are starting to fire as well with a lot of my good prospects playing week in, week out. They are in with a good shout of promotion to adalente which would be a huge boost to my development approach.

Fimally, in tactical terms i am starting to get some joy against bigger teams. Real and Barca remain out of my grasp - lost to both so far this season but they key difference to previous years was i went toe to toe with them. In both losses i was worthy of a draw, just undone but a bit of quality and luck, and in the Real game some fitness issues towards the end. I lost Raul Garcia for 3 months which really hit my approach to the big games, as him at F9 was looking like a key.

To try and bring to life a bit, i mentioned in my last post that i beat City away with my "new approach". The return game at San Mames was my next test against a top team, and again we would be without Raul Garcia.

For this game, i went control and also fairly early added "much higher Dline" rather than "push higher". This seems like a huge risk when added to Control mentality, but what i had noted was that the effect of both is somewhat mitigated by the natural impact of being pushed deeper by the quality of city. I also used suitable player again. With Garcia out through injury, i turned to my backup Guilermo, who is more of a strong type than a technical. he is not quite on the level of Garcia for sure but he fitted the type i needed for this game, and that was more important than overall "quality". As it happens, Munian was also injured but he would not have started at F9 anyway. It did mean i had to go with Gomez and Susueta wide, and my youngster Celihueta started at CM(a) for the biggest game of his career.

The heat map below is a thing of beauty for me.

Just at the right level of "pushed up", and compact but not too compact. In my other 451 thread i talked about how i see that "shape" as the correct reflection of how to create a modern "4231" - That heatmap, if you ignore number 2 and consider 17 instead (De marcos switched from right back to left back midgame which messes it up), looks pretty much exactly like what a modern 4231 should look like on a heat map.

Contrast to just how deep we pinned in Man City, a world class side

This gives me the confidence that the more bold approach can work against bigger teams, but it also needs game management. My loss against Real showed that. I will perhaps analyse it in some more detail if people are still interested, but essentially i used a bold approach to get back in the game after a first minute fluke goal, then did not properly adapt as Real started to become very strong in the last 20mins, which cost me the game. Every day is a school day as they say!

[killacam0913]

This a great thread! Good job Jambo! This thread has made me start a new save with Swansea. I've never paid so much attention to the personalities of coaches and players before. I think what you're doing with spreadsheets to help track development is brilliant, so I've stolen your idea. In your explanation you only mention outfield players. How do you track GKs? So far I've found that GKs don't really fit into the chart very well. Any ideas how to track their development better?

[Dr. Hook]

This a great thread! Good job Jambo! This thread has made me start a new save with Swansea. I've never paid so much attention to the personalities of coaches and players before. I think what you're doing with spreadsheets to help track development is brilliant, so I've stolen your idea. In your explanation you only mention outfield players. How do you track GKs? So far I've found that GKs don't really fit into the chart very well. Any ideas how to track their development better?

Yes, I concur, late to the thread as I am. Really outstanding stuff here!

[Jambo98]

This a great thread! Good job Jambo! This thread has made me start a new save with Swansea. I've never paid so much attention to the personalities of coaches and players before. I think what you're doing with spreadsheets to help track development is brilliant, so I've stolen your idea. In your explanation you only mention outfield players. How do you track GKs? So far I've found that GKs don't really fit into the chart very well. Any ideas how to track their development better?

Thanks killacam, glad you took something from it It really can be very rewarding taking the time to fully "manage" a club over a period of time. This is by far the most satisfying save i have had in FM for a while, both tactically and youth development wise.

The GK question is a fair observation and to be honest, i have neglected that a bit. I had one good keeper prospect at the club and acquired 2 more over the first 3 years. I have really not focused enough on their development approach (Possibly complacent management as i have Ruffier as my long term first choice). I might need to take a look at how i can best manage keeper development - Interested if you have any thoughts on how your doing it?

Yes, I concur, late to the thread as I am. Really outstanding stuff here!

Thanks Dr H, very much appreciate the endorsement

I have actually been continuing this save. I hadnt posted for a while as i didnt want this to become like a career thread for me. I have managed to slowly improve things in my tactic and club, and also had some interesting youth development progress. I will try and post seem details later, as well as foccusing on goalkeeper development, which is rarely mentioned on here

[Jambo98]

Ok, so i was going to just let this thread die, like many on here have, but then i was reading the latest issue of the blizzard (and by latest, i mean Dec 14......i am behind with my reading!). Incidentally, if you dont read the blizzard, then why the heck not?? It is a collection of the best football journalism out there, without a Daily Mail in sight..........

So this issue, there are, as always many items in the Blizzard. An interview with Theiry Henry is absolutely superb. An article linking the Liverpool under Paisley to the North East is.....indulgent. The story of French club Luzenac is tragic and sad.

But above all that, 2 articles made me think i should continue this save. First up, was a lovely article about Eibar, one of the much less heralded Basque clubs. Their story is the stuff of fairy tales, and worthy of a thread all of its own. The second article which made me think of this, was one by Jonathan Wilson. It was about his beloved Sunderland, but more importantly about how the era of "franchise clubs" threatens to eliminate the relevance of regional/average/mediocre clubs like his. That part immediately made me think of Athletic. They will never be a franchise club, and the fierce (yet unofficial of course) Basque strategy continues to make them unique.

Anyway, so back to some relevance to FM and to this forum!

Season 3

So this season, we grew and we learned. Thats what football management is all about is it not?

In the league we ended up in 3rd again. For the 3rd season!. However this season, we made a step forward towards the big 2.

We ended up 11 pts better off than our best, and we should have had more. A late season loss to Sociedad hurt badly, as it came on the back of 8 straight wins in la liga. However, we did win the Spanish Cup, for my first major honour in club football, and we also made it to the Semi FInals of the CL, only to suffer a heart breaking defeat to Juve 4 v 3. Two of the 4 goals they scored were own goals, and silly ones

So, the key tactical and youth development learnings:

So, tactically, the following things emerged:

1) My 451 is absolutely my DNA - It is how we play. It is a great system, versatile, and provides me with the platform to build my team around. It also provides a flexible system, which is important when managing a squad like Athletic

2) We can adjust to big teams without changing too much - Last year we just couldnt. We got destroyed (with the exception of the mental 8 goals against barca shown above!). This year we showed we can compete, we beat both barca and real in the second part of the season, and also beat Juve. Added to the Man City games mentioned in earlier posts, and we are onto something!. Tactically, you will note that some earlier posts showed me considering what i needed to do. In the end, i settled on one main change - The Dline TI - It might seem crazy, but we moved to "much higher dline" in most big games - Those type of teams rarely look for the ball over the top, and both Barca and Real are strongest out wide / from deep. This allowed us to stop the issue of falling far to deep against them, and win some games.

3) We also can adjust to smaller teams - Maybe overall still our downfall, with a few silly defeats, but on the whole we adjusted much better than last season. We did this, again, via the Dline - When teams really parked the bus, and we were dominating but not creating, we changed to "drop deeper" and this almost always gave us the space to play which we needed.

4) Player Variation is key for us - I touched on this earlier, but this was absolutely key. We never changed system, but the change in our game between Raul Garcia at F9, Iker Munian at CM(a) and Griezmann/Susueta on the wings, against Munian at F9, Celihueta at CM(a) and Garcia/ Griezmann at WM was massive. Then mix and match those combos, and throw in Ibai Gomez who can play all 4 positions (missed 5 months through injury though). We also developed Guilermo to be a "Garcia-lite" and Villalibre as a sort of "Minian-lite". This ability to totally change our game without touching our tactics was such a huge thing. Garcia ended up being top Spanish Scorer, and Munian ended up in the CL team of the year. LOVE IT!

Then there is youth development. We had 2 key learnings here

1) Patience - Youth development can very much be about patience. I had one guy, i signed before the very first season started. Aritz Celihueta. Lets look at how he started:

He looked nothing special. He actually got a few first team games in season 1, as we were short in the first team. He also played a lot of U19 football but over season 1, he barely developed. In season 2, he played 90% of his time in the Bibao Athletic team (my "B" team). He improved much more, and got a few first team games as well.

Then in season 3, early season he seemed to "spurt". He grew a lot and had really benefited from all the game time in the B team. So he was included in the first team squad. And wow did he earn it. Here is he is now:

As you can see, he really has grown. He has also learned all the PPMs i needed and grown his personality via turoring:

So, nice progress there. Similar story with Villalibre, who grew from a bit part in the U19s into a player who could regularly start and score for the first team.

2) The B team benefit and maximising it - So i mentioned above how much that Celihueta gained from a year in our "B" team. A few others found the same - Jon Sola grew a lot in particular from the competative first time football. So this year i really tried to give the B team the focus it deserved, and within reason tried to make them stronger. It paid off, big time. They got promoted via the playoffs (which i managed myself) and we now have a second team who will compete in the Liga Adelente. That could be huge for youth development!

I will keep trying to update this thread, with some more focus back on tactical learnings but also showing the youth development. The rewarding factor of building a club like this really is awesome We shall try to conquer the mighty Barca and Real in time!

[killacam0913]

I'm still interested in how your save goes. Especially if you have any thoughts to add about GK development. KUTGW!

[Rashidi]

If one plays FMC the ass man can have quite an impact. I find that focusing on one that shares your philosophy idea, furthermore if he has tactical awareness, discipline, man management as key attributes with motivation not far behind, you can set him up to do instant results. Give the ass man a target, then watch him bring home the bacon. Ideally you want to get your side off to a good start first, and your system does not need to be solid. Your ass man can't turn an overnight dish into a culinary masterpiece. In my atletico save, my assman actually won 7 games on the trot. I was quite impressed.

I consider backroom staff to be a vital part of player development, but once you spend the initial effort setting it up, its all auto-pilot till you need to renew their contracts.

One option I find with weaker teams to be quite effective is playing a counter against a defensive. It sounds really strange, but it has its logic. A counter strategy with a short passing, retain possession shout played at high tempo, essentially begins a fast game that seeks to unlock defences with constant movement, provided off course that you have set up the relevant roles to exploit them. With a 451 thrusting through the middle will be no issue for you, and gives you the added dimension of creating a lot of variations in a game, such as the 4312. I don't subscribe to the theory that we should stick to one system, believing instead that one can play various systems during a match, all you need are the players on the pitch to pull it off. The 451 and the 4312 are incredibly complementary systems, with the latter being quite offensive in nature. I believe this will enhance your clubs DNA even further, giving you incredible depth and options going forward.

[Jambo98]

Hmm i must admit, i dont think you could do this on FMC. The depth i am trying to create in terms of every aspect of the club is probably not what FMC is designed for?

The Ass Man point is something i have looked at. I might have mentioned this further up the thread somewhere, but on FM14 i tried to something similar to this with Hearts. It was following Craig Levien's approach of creating a single way of playing through the club - from youths to first team. Not a formation, but a set of philosophys. Of course this has massive benefits, but one of the key ones Levien identified was the ability to create a bootroom type conveyor belt for staff. The next 3 first team managers at Hearts should all be promoted from within. That way there is no need for the club to clear out players, bring in new ones to fit a "new way". Its a perfectly sensible approach, particularly for a club with limited resources.

In FM what i tried to do was to find staff who all had the same shared preffered formation, which really was impossible. It was also probably the wrong way to do it. Formation does not equal system or style of play.

This time, i did try to find staff who shared my ideas around in particular passing style and pressing style. It was still pretty damn hard to find good ones, with good personality types who all shared the same approach. What I would love to see however, is those aspects for staff being dynamic - I have guys on my staff for 3 years and we have only ever played one way, their preferences should start to move towards that. Maybe in FM19 or so

I will never let my Ass Man manage a game, in full fat FM at least, because the function for "manage using your tactic" doesnt work. If you select that option and go on holiday, then go back and watch the match you "skipped" you will find that although the Ass Man is forced into using the same "formation", all other settings, including roles and duties, are changed. Thats not how i want things to work. I want my team to play a specific way, and whilst we should be flexible to some extent, playing an entirely different system of roles and duties doesnt work for me, even if the Ass Man got wins.

As you say, staff are key to youth development and intakes, but it is a fair point that once you have them, there aint much to do. FM15 does allow a little more here, since you can improve them by sending them on courses, but beyond that and looking out for better staff as your rep increases, it is a bit of auto pilot.

When i first identified my issues against defensive sides i did propose going to counter for those games. However i found that actually i didnt want to change my passing or tempo or width, all i needed was to drop deeper to create more space - Might be quite specific to my approach, because i have at times 5/6 runners from deep. That is why i choose to only change the Dline, not the overally mentality. Likewise against big teams, my issue was not with passing or tempo, simply that we allowed ourself to be forced deep which let Mess and Co play. Push much higher denied that space. The odd time i also augmented that with changing one of my DC (Laporte - the faster one) to cover duty just to keep me safe from the ball over the top.

I actually did a seperate thread about the 451 and how it is so versatile - You can create so many shapes form that base formation just by altering roles and duties and PI. Many would opt for the single DM type role in the middle and use it to create a 433 shape, but mine plays out exactly like a 4231. The 2 DLP sit, the CM and WM advance nicely as a trio. It actually plays more like most "real" 4231 than the ingame 4231 one does. My shape is pretty much 451 when we defend, or 4411 (the CM tends to sit higher even when defending) and then 4231 when attacking. I love watching it in action, and anytime i venture away from this core shape i find my self drawn back to it and its variations

In terms of the point about multiple systems, its an interesting one. Clearly Pep, who i think i recall we have both spent time reading about recently, is at one extreme end of the spectrum. He changes systems at least 4 times a game on average, between 4 at the back, 3 at the back, 2 at the back. Single pivote, Double pivote. Number 10, no number 10. False 9, no False 9. He has something like 30 systems in his head and his team are drilled in every single one. He also benefits, of course, from having a group of the finest and most versatile footballers in the world. Most of his players can fulfill at least 2 if not 3 roles comfortbably. Lahm is well publicised, but also the likes of Javi can be a DC or pivote or even a number 8. Goetze can be a number 8 or a wide man or a 10. Thiago can pivote or be a number 8, Ribery has played false 9 on occasion as well as wide. Alaba fullback or pivote or even DC. The list goes on. Not many squads have such versatility.

At the other end of the scale, there are plenty of managers who tweak far less. Simeone, for example, i would argue changes system less. He uses different player types sometimes to alter (so Raul Garcia will play the wide role differently to Arda for example) and he does alternate between 2 strikers and 1 striker/1 support striker. In game, its quite rare for him to totally change his system for example in the way that Pep does.

In the middle are guys like say Mourinho or Pelligrini - You could argue that both have 2 main systems - Jose plays 4231 90% of the time, but against the big sides he has swapped out the AM for a DM to go 41221. Nothing else changes. Likewise Pellegrini tends to alternate 442 and 4411, without much changing other than the second striker situation. Again both can use different player types - So Jose puting Remy up front in place of Costa can alter how they play just because of his style. Likewise playing Ramires at right wing rather than Willian, and more recently perhaps Cuardrado showing to be a different style to Willian (more direct and pacey). For Manuel, consider the difference between playing these 3 players at RM - Samir Nasri, Jesus Navas and James Milner. All 3 have started a good number of games in that position, but without changing the system they can make the team play very different. One playmaker, one winger, one hard worker.

So i guess all that rambling is to say that i identify, in this save, more with the end of the spectrum which says have one clear system. Make small tweaks as dictated by the opposition (i occasionally exploit the flanks against a 4231) and also use your player types to bring variation. In someways, being Athletic, i am limited. I cant sign players who are all versatile like Pep has, simply because they dont exist. I have almost all the best Basque players (Probably Javi and Azpil are the 2 missing) so i have to work with what i have. What i do have, is versatility in the 4 forward positions and that is what i used in place of different sytems. I might play 30mins with Raul Garcia up front as a powerhouse, then move him to right wing where his PPM gives me the late arrival in the box from wide. Meantime i have replaced him upfront with Munian, who brings pace and dribbling to the forward line. If i want extra tricky, i might bring Ibai Gomez in and play with all 4 fast players and give Raul a rest (although he was so good last season that i found that hard to do!) On occasion when i feel i need to think more about holding on, i might even take Oscar De Marcos, who has been a great fullback for me, and play him in a WM slot with another fullback (Mikel Rico or Monreal) brought on behind.

These little changes in personell really do play out on the pitch. I recall Sfraser waxing lyrical about this principle, and i enjoy it myself

Now, i really must focus on developing my keepers

[Soldatino]

I'm loving every single line that you add. Plus a thumbs up for mentioning Blizzard, indeed a great reading!

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

hey jambo

i know we have had are differencces however this is my faviourite thread on the forum. Quick question though i know u said openng post that it coild work with any club u choose however do u have any other suggestions of other teams around the world or maybe some of the other clubs u were tossing up between doing before choosing atheltic? thanx

[Jambo98]

I'm loving every single line that you add. Plus a thumbs up for mentioning Blizzard, indeed a great reading!

Thanks, glad you are enjoying and yeah i enjoy Blizzard. Some of the articles/extracts can be a bit obscure and over indulgent, but i guess thats the point in it

hey jambo

i know we have had are differencces however this is my faviourite thread on the forum. Quick question though i know u said openng post that it coild work with any club u choose however do u have any other suggestions of other teams around the world or maybe some of the other clubs u were tossing up between doing before choosing atheltic? thanx

Thanks Leeds, i am glad you have enjoyed it and taken some ideas from it.

In terms of teams, well it very much depends on where you want to go, but a few ideas i had:

Anderlecht / Standard - Both in Belguim, which produces good regens and they have top youth systems. Belguim like is not the best, but it would provide an additional challenge in terms of success in Europe. Risk that the league might get a bit boring in the same way that the Portugese can

Lyon - I was very tempted by them. Great youth system and huge history in real life of using youth development. French league is much improved these days and the top clubs there are at the top table in the CL nowdays. Also the challenge of trying to beat the oil rich PSG and fertaliser rich Monaco.

AC Milan - Bit of a left field one. They dont have a amazing youths but they are a huge club, with a big history and if you are less focussed exlusively on youths, then taking Milan and rebuilding it into a club with a specific identity could be good fun. They are a club which have completely lost its way. Signing policy is all over the place over the last 5 years, plenty "good" players but no coherent strategy or approach at all. It would be an interesting couple of years to turn them over into a driven club with a clear way of playing football .

Ajax/PSV/Feynoord - Feels like Ajax have been done to death, and Cleon of course did the hugely detailed thread on them last year (or was it 2 years ago now?). Holland in general, of course, has led the way in youth development for many years, and also the "dutch identity" in terms of how they approach the game is probably stronger than anywhere else in the world. Also PSV and Feynoord are clubs with European history which could be restored

Red Star Belgrade - Not a well known league at all, but a club with a huge history. Could be a "restore the former glory" type approach. They make this list as they also have one of the top youth setups in the game.

Inter - This could be an option for a different slant. Most of these threads (mine/Rashidi/Cleon) focus on creating great technical players and modern type of expansive football (thats not to say we dont have great defensive records, but if you look at how we approach training, what we look at first, its things like first touch and composure). You could go a very different route. Inter would be a candidate where you go in and create defensive football based around big strong athletes. In the spirit of Herrera...

Crewe - An option if you want to stay in England and also want to start lower leagues. They are of course well known for the academy, and starting in League 1 is a real challenge. They have lots of academy graduates in the squad to start with as well

Those are the main ones i went through, of course you might have other ideas. It really needs a long term save to see this kind of thing come to life, and of course its a lot of attention to detail so its time consuming in all aspects. Could easily be a save which takes from now until FM16!

Good luck with whatever you choose

[Jambo98]

Right, i have faffed around talking about properly looking at goalkeeper development, but now its time to set aside a little time to post about it.

Developing the keepers

Ah the art of goalkeeping. A strange an unique one. Crazy reptuations, being "the guy who cant play so gets stuck in goal". Yet in modern times, the perception is changing. Suddenly Neur, Ter Stegen, Lloris and others are developing a reputation for being integral parts of the team setup - not just the guy who makes saves. There are several only semi joking references from Pep, suggesting that he might play Neuer in midfield for a game - he is that good of a football player. Xavi made some similar, half joking comments about how he is now the second best passer at the club - behind Ter Stegen.

Now, i dont have either of those german masters, but i do have a couple of keeper prospects who are worth foccusing on.

The candidates

The first choice - Stephane Ruffier

The best basque keeper and one of my early targets when i started my career. Prime age for a keeper, and very solid all round. He could easily hold down this position for another 5 years if i need him to, which is probably why i have not focused on youth development of keepers as much

Attributes

Personality

The young backup - Kepa Arrizabalaga

The backup when i arrived, he is a very solid keeper in his own right now and a very able second choice. He still has some growth left. At 22, for an outfield player i would be worried that he had missed the boat for development, but keepers tend to naturally still develop a bit later.

Attributes

Personality

Report

The young prospect - Bote Esono Eyang

A prospect that my scouts found at Granda when he was only 16, and therefor eligible to sign for me (he is non basque). I splashed out a sizeable £2million on him as he was the only good keeper prospect i could find who i could sign. Very young still for a keeper, but has already picked up a bit in his 2 years (see post #73 for screenshots at the outset and recent)

Attributes

Personality

Report

The development approach - Part 1 - Tutoring

Ok, so first up is considering whether i should tutor here. Its a fairly simple process to analyse, since i only have one Senior/over 23 keeper in my squad (Ruffier) and only the 2 prospects. But, still, we must follow due process. I use the personality types and MH types to get an idea of how Professionalism/Ambition/Temperament compares - table below:

So what we can see is that actually, they are all pretty similar, and i cant get a particularly narrow band on the hidden attributes. However, on the flip side, no negative personality issues. From this i can see that it is worth alternating the tutoring between the 2 prospects. Kepa will only be able to be tutored once or twice more before he is too old anyway, then he can flip onto tutoring one of my U18 prospects, who are not covered here as none are particularly great

I have stuff to add on how to analyse training needs and decide which training approach to apply, but running out of time just now so will edit it in later - At least i have started!

[Yaniv242]

This is gold.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

Thanks, glad you are enjoying and yeah i enjoy Blizzard. Some of the articles/extracts can be a bit obscure and over indulgent, but i guess thats the point in it

Thanks Leeds, i am glad you have enjoyed it and taken some ideas from it.

In terms of teams, well it very much depends on where you want to go, but a few ideas i had:

Anderlecht / Standard - Both in Belguim, which produces good regens and they have top youth systems. Belguim like is not the best, but it would provide an additional challenge in terms of success in Europe. Risk that the league might get a bit boring in the same way that the Portugese can

Lyon - I was very tempted by them. Great youth system and huge history in real life of using youth development. French league is much improved these days and the top clubs there are at the top table in the CL nowdays. Also the challenge of trying to beat the oil rich PSG and fertaliser rich Monaco.

AC Milan - Bit of a left field one. They dont have a amazing youths but they are a huge club, with a big history and if you are less focussed exlusively on youths, then taking Milan and rebuilding it into a club with a specific identity could be good fun. They are a club which have completely lost its way. Signing policy is all over the place over the last 5 years, plenty "good" players but no coherent strategy or approach at all. It would be an interesting couple of years to turn them over into a driven club with a clear way of playing football .

Ajax/PSV/Feynoord - Feels like Ajax have been done to death, and Cleon of course did the hugely detailed thread on them last year (or was it 2 years ago now?). Holland in general, of course, has led the way in youth development for many years, and also the "dutch identity" in terms of how they approach the game is probably stronger than anywhere else in the world. Also PSV and Feynoord are clubs with European history which could be restored

Red Star Belgrade - Not a well known league at all, but a club with a huge history. Could be a "restore the former glory" type approach. They make this list as they also have one of the top youth setups in the game.

Inter - This could be an option for a different slant. Most of these threads (mine/Rashidi/Cleon) focus on creating great technical players and modern type of expansive football (thats not to say we dont have great defensive records, but if you look at how we approach training, what we look at first, its things like first touch and composure). You could go a very different route. Inter would be a candidate where you go in and create defensive football based around big strong athletes. In the spirit of Herrera...

Crewe - An option if you want to stay in England and also want to start lower leagues. They are of course well known for the academy, and starting in League 1 is a real challenge. They have lots of academy graduates in the squad to start with as well

Those are the main ones i went through, of course you might have other ideas. It really needs a long term save to see this kind of thing come to life, and of course its a lot of attention to detail so its time consuming in all aspects. Could easily be a save which takes from now until FM16!

Good luck with whatever you choose

Very nice suggestions there mightt give lyon a go

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

any chance you could upload the excel spreadsheet template? looks really interesting

[Jambo98]

Sorry leeds meant to respond to that.

Sorry but the point really is for you to form your own identity and way to create it - Think about what you want form players, not copy my approach. Creating your own excel will only take 20mins.

I realised i havent finished off the goalkeeper development analysis. I really must get to that Few things in game took me away from it.

Firstly i realised the patch has changed my tactic a bit. The changes to how support duty strikers operate has made my F9 stays much higher up, which fundementally changes some things. I need to work on how to compensate for that. Part of the knock on effect is that more long shots start to creep in again, because the F9 starts higher, and is more likely to end up isolated. Time for some re-design

Also got a bit fed up with rubbish goalkeeping since the patch, but i just need to ignore that really i guess. it happens to both me and the AI so hey ho.

I also am going to lose Munian in this save. Slightly strange scenario, but 2 days after the window closed, PSG met his release clause of £61million, all up front! Gutted to lose him, but we have depth and can bring in more youth now. To spend some of the money, i have secured Azpillcueta. He will come in during Jan and strengthen us overall.

I shall make an effort to finish the keeper development bit, and also perhaps if people still interested write up how i go about changing my tactic to reflect the new ME. A little bit of a wierd thing to have to write about since it feels "not real" but its a change thats needed, so i need to go through the process.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

well i can respect that however what would u suggest for a physical, hard working direct style of play?

[killacam0913]

well i can respect that however what would u suggest for a physical, hard working direct style of play?

I think it depends on what roles you will use. I recently started a save using Jambo's method. I too wasn't sure which traits to select, so in the end I kind of guessed based on what traits are needed for different roles. I think the more important point is that you use it to see how players and see which players are ready for 1st team playing time. That probably doesn't make sense, but hey you can always change it later if you come up with better traits.

I'll just add that 6 months into year 1 and I've already started to see some of the benefits of my work. I've seen how players with better personality types have progressed better. I've also been able to track players development to be able to tell when a player has developed the traits I require to be ready for 1st team time (at least based on the traits I selected).

[wkdsoul]

Just started reading this today, gonna take some more time to read the full breakdown.

but love the gap chart, I thought only i did that... lol.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

I think it depends on what roles you will use. I recently started a save using Jambo's method. I too wasn't sure which traits to select, so in the end I kind of guessed based on what traits are needed for different roles. I think the more important point is that you use it to see how players and see which players are ready for 1st team playing time. That probably doesn't make sense, but hey you can always change it later if you come up with better traits.

I'll just add that 6 months into year 1 and I've already started to see some of the benefits of my work. I've seen how players with better personality types have progressed better. I've also been able to track players development to be able to tell when a player has developed the traits I require to be ready for 1st team time (at least based on the traits I selected).

id love to do ths but just dont know how to get started haha

[Mark.]

Would love to hear about the Tactic change for the Support Forward issue. Certainly something I have been fiddling around with.

[Raffen]

Very nice suggestions there mightt give lyon a go

I've thought about France a couple of times as a youth project, but I reckon I would've probably gone for teams like St. Etienne, Nantes, Auxerre, Metz or Le Havre. Teams that (at least to my recollection) keep producing good talents, but require a bit more time to build up (economy and squad wise).

Also Croatia, the Czech republic and Serbia does have historically interesting sides. Even possibly Romania.

But I barely have time for one project, so guess it's going to stay in the back of my mind for now.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

yeah its very fullon iv gone to australia actually with brisbane roar and going to try to implement a passing possession tactic long term.

but so far its high press and stuff with 14 team instructuions. so probably to many?