Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Your games are also "one off" games as you claim you dominate and win most matches you play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Your games are also "one off" games as you claim you dominate and win most matches you play. You cannot really say 10 games out of 38 are "one off" games can you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beestonite Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 What? i'm sorry but if you don't believe this to be the case in real life then I would have to insist that you don't watch a lot of football.Plus 1. How many "good" chances did Chelsea create against West Ham? I can think of only one right at the end, almost every shot was a potshot from distance 2. How many "good" chances did City create against Norwich?(in fact I think Norwich had the best chances) 3. Cannot comment on the Utd v Fulham game(haven't seen it) In FM I consistently have to watch games in which i'm shown one thing during a game that seems to totally go against the final result. 1. Chelsea dominated the game, as was the point you're making. You didn't really define domination very well. For me Chelsea dominated and 'deserved' to win. If you were in charge of Chelsea I'm sure you would be on here complaining about not winning. 2. Same as above. 3. It's true, Man Utd deserved to win. You are shown one thing which goes against the result consistently? You need to post stats here showing what sort of chances you are having. Long shots, CCC's, half chances? If you want to present a reasonable debate which doesn't have as many holes as Swiss Cheese - thus enabling you to rant about someone missing your point - then do it. Present data, screenshots etc instead of just rambling on. People are trying to help but you just present rant after rant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I would imagine that there is an element of skewed user perception when it comes to judging how rare events are in FM. The problem can stem from the fact we are able to play 20+ matches in a single session with some folk completing a season in a single day, this means that those matches where things just didn't go our way are fresh in our memory whereas irl 3 months to a year might have passed so recalling incidents from the same number of real life matches becomes increasingly difficult. Sorry but over a third of all goals conceded over a season being own goals is not skewed perception. I do appreciate your input though, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 You cannot really say 10 games out of 38 are "one off" games can you? Here's 3 other matches from Spurs so far this season where they dominated but lost or drew: http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/287520/stats http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/287464/stats http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/295727/stats Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbokav1971 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Do you mind if I make a suggestion Jimbob? Upload a save game and let some of the guys in here play about with it. They will have a look at your tactics and try and see where you are going wrong, explain why and then amend the tactics accordingly. Then they will play a few games and show you the results and maybe come to some conclusions. It's possible that some of the changes will have worked and others less so, and maybe you, (and we), will learn something from it. I would happily give this a go, (despite the fact that I'm really not great at FM so really am not the best person to do this). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagenham_Dave Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sorry but over a third of all goals conceded over a season being own goals is not skewed perception. It can be if you haven't conceded many goals. If you concede 9 goals all season and 3 of them are own goals, then a third of your goals conceded are own goals. If you concede 100 goals all season and 25 of them are own goals, then a quarter of your goals conceded are own goals. Which is the better season? How many goals did you concede? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 1. Chelsea dominated the game, as was the point you're making. You didn't really define domination very well. For me Chelsea dominated and 'deserved' to win. If you were in charge of Chelsea I'm sure you would be on here complaining about not winning. 2. Same as above. 3. It's true, Man Utd deserved to win. You are shown one thing which goes against the result consistently? You need to post stats here showing what sort of chances you are having. Long shots, CCC's, half chances? If you want to present a reasonable debate which doesn't have as many holes as Swiss Cheese - thus enabling you to rant about someone missing your point - then do it. Present data, screenshots etc instead of just rambling on. People are trying to help but you just present rant after rant. Am I really ranting? sorry if that's the case, i'm just frustrated and people are not always cottoning on to my point. I'll give you a small example of what I've found Over a season the AI scores 2 goals per ccc and hc created, I score 1 goal per 3 ccc and hc created, this is just one example, but based over a season played against better and poorer teams there should not be such a difference between the two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 That's a tactical issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Here's 3 other matches from Spurs so far this season where they dominated but lost or drew:http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/287520/stats http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/287464/stats http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/295727/stats I'm guessing your a Spurs fan Just going back to the old "some you win some you lose" saying, Spurs won undeservedly yesterday v Everton and i'd guess that was not the first time this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagenham_Dave Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Over a season the AI scores 2 goals per ccc and hc created, I score 1 goal per 3 ccc and hc created, this is just one example, but based over a season played against better and poorer teams there should not be such a difference between the two. You're absolutely right, there shouldn't be. Now factor in that the system simply doesn't favour an AI team over a human one, and that leaves only one outcome on that front I'm afraid, and Ackter's just beaten me to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Do you mind if I make a suggestion Jimbob?Upload a save game and let some of the guys in here play about with it. They will have a look at your tactics and try and see where you are going wrong, explain why and then amend the tactics accordingly. Then they will play a few games and show you the results and maybe come to some conclusions. It's possible that some of the changes will have worked and others less so, and maybe you, (and we), will learn something from it. I would happily give this a go, (despite the fact that I'm really not great at FM so really am not the best person to do this). That won't really work will it, i'd have to upload EVERY game just to get some perspective of what's happening, how often etc, etc. By the way, does anyone know where/if I can find paint on Windows 8(or 8.1) :o Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm guessing your a Spurs fan Just going back to the old "some you win some you lose" saying, Spurs won undeservedly yesterday v Everton and i'd guess that was not the first time this season. Newcastle, which is why the Spurs/Newcastle match came straight to mind. Here's me getting Messi to score ~25% of all his shots taken. Note: Not CCCs, all shots: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/380873-Making-Messi-Messi(ish)?p=9350812&viewfull=1#post9350812 The AI can't come close to that figure, because the AI just can't do what we're able to tactically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 That's a tactical issue. How? surely a ccc is a ccc and a hc just that. If we are going to start delving into what can/can't be construed as a ccc then there is no way to solve the issue, because the issue lies in FM and we know there are already issues with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The CCC counter is inaccurate. If you watch the actual shots themselves (from the analysis tab) you'll see that a significant number of them really shouldn't be counting as CCCs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbokav1971 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 That won't really work will it, i'd have to upload EVERY game just to get some perspective of what's happening, how often etc, etc.By the way, does anyone know where/if I can find paint on Windows 8(or 8.1) :o Well I wasn't really suggesting going back and re-playing old games, (but if you have saves available then that's certainly an idea), but more playing the next month or so and showing you that playing with different tactical instructions, the things that seem to be so frustrating you, might just might be avoided. As for paint, yes, (it also had me stumped for a while). Go to the main screen and then just start typing "paint". There is not a visible box to type into but don't worry. As you type a list of programmes will appear and paint will be one of them. Click on that and fill your boots. Would you accept that if someone was able to play your save with different tactical instructions and not encounter the same problems then we might have a point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The CCC counter is inaccurate. If you watch the actual shots themselves (from the analysis tab) you'll see that a significant number of them really shouldn't be counting as CCCs. The way people interpret / focus on the statistics provided does appear to affect their perception of the game. If people just see 6 CCCs in a game but no goals scored, they might put 6 and 0 together and come up with "bug". Like you say, if you watch those CCCs back, then some of them are questionable. Even if they were accurately classed as CCCs, CCC does not equal goal, otherwise it would be an entirely superfluous stat anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr U Rosler Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think a lot of people's frustrations are caused when they consider themselves to have 'dominated' a game and lost and they see this repeated fairly regularly. The possession stat and the number of shots is what they are specifically looking at. Possession is worthless by itself in fact having too much ball can create issues of its own in this game as I will explain later. When considering shots on target you can remove 'long shots' as you haven't actually created anything, in fact, more than likely it means nothing else was on which is a bad sign. The reality is, in this game and to an extent IRL BETTER CHANCE'S are created on the BREAK/COUNTER. It's very hard to break down a well organized defense, when you win the ball and counter you DO NOT have to deal with an organized defense as they are out of position and the players with 'suuport' duty cannot get back in time to help. Those of you with 70% + possession will get very little opportunity to counter, you IN TURN will be countered a lot, your attacking play will consist of trying to break down highly organised and determined defenses. That ain't easy. You can win a lot of games like that if you have quality players, but you can suffer defeats at any time by any team and it is likely to happen many times a season, I aim for around 55% possession which leaves room for possession based attacks and counter attacks. For what it's worth I think this 'balance' in the current ME is only SLIGHTLY off and should be tweaked to enable teams in possession to break down defences slightly more easily. There are many examples of managers/systems in real world football where teams are happy to let their opponents enjoy possession of the ball IN CERTAIN areas of the pitch. If you are building/using a possession based tactic you better know what your doing and be able to identify and recruit the high quality players you will need to make it work. Even Barcelona can struggle to break down teams when they are missing key players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Well I wasn't really suggesting going back and re-playing old games, (but if you have saves available then that's certainly an idea), but more playing the next month or so and showing you that playing with different tactical instructions, the things that seem to be so frustrating you, might just might be avoided.As for paint, yes, (it also had me stumped for a while). Go to the main screen and then just start typing "paint". There is not a visible box to type into but don't worry. As you type a list of programmes will appear and paint will be one of them. Click on that and fill your boots. Thanks Would you accept that if someone was able to play your save with different tactical instructions and not encounter the same problems then we might have a point? If it were made clear enough to understand(I would still wonder if said person reloaded) :o Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 That won't really work will it, i'd have to upload EVERY game just to get some perspective of what's happening, how often etc, etc.By the way, does anyone know where/if I can find paint on Windows 8(or 8.1) :o Easiest way to find it is hit the windows key + R and then search for MSPaint, once found pin it to your desktop or taskbar. As for your other points you've made today you first need to grasp the basic concept of how FM works. Firstly the AI that controls other teams is different to the AI that calculates the matches. The one that controls the matches (The ME) simply takes the inputs from both teams and calculates what happens on the field. It doesn't know and doesn't care if the inputs have come from a human or another AI source. Therefore the AI that controls the ME does not in any way, shape or form cheat the human user as it has no clue which team, if any, has a human user. Secondly anything the AI which controls the other teams can do you can do as a human user as you both have access to the same options in terms of formation/roles/duties/instructions/press conferences etc. If the other AI manager's are performing better than you than this is entirely 100% down to you and the decisions you make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Here's 3 other matches from Spurs so far this season where they dominated but lost or drew:http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/287520/stats http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/287464/stats http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/295727/stats Thanks to OPTA stats and The Guardian, we have exact knowledge of how often a team wins when having more possession (57%) and more shots (71%). Even if you always dominate the shot count, over a 60 match season you should expect to fail to win circa 18 times. Obviously, you will win some matches very easily. The key to being good at FM is not those matches, but reducing this 30-40% figure to one that will ensure you win some trophies. Aye, those numbers involve actual football rather than FM's match engine. However, those numbers also involved actual managers rather than us wannabes. Some of which won't bother about those extra per cent and conclude from the easy wins that all is set and rosy for eternity. We've long argued that a subjective and contextual reading of a match is far more important than a statistical one (at least at FM's statistical level). We now have the data to back that up. You need to understand what is going on at a tactical and motivational level, not merely keep possession high and count shots. That only goes so far. Learning to win on the counter, in horrible conditions, against teams that park the bus, and when your players are nervous or frustrated is part of the management experience. Grasp that and you will master FM. And won't bother about context either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagenham_Dave Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The AI can't come close to that figure, because the AI just can't do what we're able to tactically. The AI can theoretically do anything a human user can do, given it's all the same code being used. The difference is that a human is more adept at 'thinking outside the box' where the AI is a lot more rigid in its application. Which in a roundabout way is me agreeing with you, just nitpicking on semantics Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Thanks If it were made clear enough to understand(I would still wonder if said person reloaded) :o My final game of the season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beestonite Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The AI can theoretically do anything a human user can do, given it's all the same code being used. The difference is that a human is more adept at 'thinking outside the box' where the AI is a lot more rigid in its application. Which in a roundabout way is me agreeing with you, just nitpicking on semantics That's not like you Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 My final game of the season. Bottom line is it was just one of those days when you couldn't get the opening goal. They happen IRL and in FM. Do they happen too much in FM? No I don't think so, if you do go back over a season and count how many times it has happened. I suspect its not as often as you think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Bottom line is it was just one of those days when you couldn't get the opening goal.They happen IRL and in FM. Do they happen too much in FM? No I don't think so, if you do go back over a season and count how many times it has happened. I suspect its not as often as you think. 12 in 38 league games, sound excessive? Now guess how many points I took from games where I was outplayed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 What did you do to combat that happening in those matches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 12 in 38 league games, sound excessive?Now guess how many points I took from games where I was outplayed? No it sounds about right. All you have to do is look back on Barcelona's results over the last three-four seasons and you'll see thats about the same number of matches that they drop points in (Its fair to assume that they dominate most of their games IRL). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 What did you do to combat that happening in those matches? As that was the final game of the season and made no difference to the final positions I did nothing. Usually I would play more attacking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 No it sounds about right.All you have to do is look back on Barcelona's results over the last three-four seasons and you'll see thats about the same number of matches that they drop points in (Its fair to assume that they dominate most of their games IRL). I don't think that's right, but anyway even if it was, how many games do they generally lose in a season when the opposition have not had a shot? Look, I understand what people are saying, but at the end of the day there should be nothing I can do to produce those kinds of stats and matches without there being something very wrong with the game. That is it at the end of the day simple as that, I wish I could convince you you were wrong, just as I wish I could be convinced you were right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 As that was the final game of the season and made no difference to the final positions I did nothing.Usually I would play more attacking. Ok, so say you're attacking a team and you're seriously failing to break through, how is doing even more of that going to help? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 12 in 38 league games, sound excessive? Going by the statistics linked to above, if you always dominated the shot count in all of those 38 games, you should expect to not win 11 of those. That's what would likely happen in football anyways. Sounds about decent then. But then FM's match play has been known to be soak tested and tweaked until it approaches real life football statistics as much as possible. I have a bit of a hard time imagining the numbers all being as excessive as those from the last match of your season. Some poor player (shot) decision making inherent to the ME (i.e. shots that wouldn't be taken in real football) can inflate these numbers though. And as the soak tests are done (to my knowledge) primarily with AI teams and its tactics, the involvement of a human player can always skew the numbers. That's likely why a lot of issues only crop up after release (and also slip past the most extensive beta stages), but how would you possibly do this differently considering the complexity involved? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Ok, so say you're attacking a team and you're seriously failing to break through, how is doing even more of that going to help? It has worked in other matches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Going by the statistics linked to above, if you always dominated the shot count in all of those 38 games, you should expect to not win 11 of those. That's what would likely happen in football anyways.Sounds about decent then. But then FM's match play has been known to be soak tested and tweaked until it approaches real life football statistics as much as possible. I have a bit of a hard time imagining the numbers all being as excessive as those from the last match of your season. Some poor player (shot) decision making inherent to the ME (i.e. shots that wouldn't be taken in real football) can inflate these numbers though. And as the soak tests are done (to my knowledge) primarily with AI teams and its tactics, the involvement of a human player can always skew the numbers. That's likely why a lot of issues only crop up after release (and also slip past the most extensive beta stages), but how would you possibly do this differently considering the complexity involved? So based on what you are saying does that mean that I SHOULD have won 11 of the games I didn't dominate? People seem to forget it has to work both ways, which is practically my entire point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameuss Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It has worked in other matches But it clearly isn't in others. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, you have to adapt to each game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 As that was the final game of the season and made no difference to the final positions I did nothing.Usually I would play more attacking. It has worked in other matches So you would go more attacking because "It worked in other matches" I think this is the key to your problems jimbob, the bottom line is you don't know what changes to make or why you are making the changes you are. There is often no point going more attacking against a team who is sitting back, you need to drag them out of shape and create space which often means toning down the mentality to standard/counter or even defensive and work the ball around more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 So based on what you are saying does that mean that I SHOULD have won 11 of the games I didn't dominate?People seem to forget it has to work both ways, which is practically my entire point. If you played though a full season of 38 games and were dominated in all of them you should expect to draw or win approx 11 of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sorry fella's I honestly believe you are trying to help, but I don't agree with what your saying. Now be honest, what do football teams do at the end of games when they desperately want/need a goal? remember to answer honestly. I also need to go eat, but if anyone is still interested in a discussion about all this i'll be back soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 So based on what you are saying does that mean that I SHOULD have won 11 of the games I didn't dominate? It means you shouldn't praise yourself for all the matches you did win, but take a closer look at those you didn't as they may well make the difference between you finishing the season with silverware or without. That sounds obvious, but dominating shots (and in particular not possession) isn't all there is to go all the way. In other words: FM players focus purely on these few statistics, often even without considering the simplest kind of measurement of quality (how many % of shots were actually on target? Unfortunately the CCC stat has always been questionable). You could of course thus say such. However, the way FM players usually build tactics means they won't get outplayed "statistically" all season anyway. To put it in another way: If they did park the bus or counter themselves, that is in reasonable ways the AI does it, they'd likely experience it all, except the reverse way. But as possession and shot counts "reign supreme", barely anyone does experience such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 If you played though a full season of 38 games and were dominated in all of them you should expect to draw or win approx 11 of them. Well its true then, the game is off, because I was dominated in some games and I never saw so much as a point for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbokav1971 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 As that was the final game of the season and made no difference to the final positions I did nothing.Usually I would play more attacking. I'm sure that someone is going to say this before me while I type, but sometimes, going more attacking is not the answer. Sometimes you have to work "differently" rather than just "more attacking". I think this sort of thinking leads to even losing games that you should be winning rather than drawing them, (which of course is bad enough). There have been a few recent cases of this with man City recently where he took off an attacker, (I think), and put on a full back, (certainly a wide attacker). I think it was Kolarov. Give me a minute and I will see if I can find an article on it. I'm sure the journo's would have picked up on it. (I'm not talking about the Bayern game by the way). Here is a decent article. Needing three goals to quell the unrest and prevent the domestic press from frothing over in hyperbolic Schadenfreude, the wily Chilean manager replaced two defenders with two more defenders, released a plodding central defender in the midst of a disastrous day's work to play a passing midfield role, and in the glint of a South American eye, turned the match around. There are other examples too. Sometimes width is the answer. Sometimes, (as was the case last night), a "Scholes" is the answer for Man Utd rather than just more bodies in the box and another 20 crosses. Sometimes you don't have to be smarter, just think differently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Well its true then, the game is off, because I was dominated in some games and I never saw so much as a point for it. Rubbish, I can show you lots of games where I was dominated and won some points. If you want a discussion you at least have to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It means you shouldn't praise yourself for all the matches you did win, but take a closer look at those you didn't as they may well make the difference between you finishing the season with silverware or without. That sounds obvious, but dominating shots (and in particular not possession) isn't all there is to go all the way. In other words: FM players focus purely on these few statistics, often even without considering the simplest kind of measurement of quality (how many % of shots were actually on target? Unfortunately the CCC stat has always been questionable). You could of course thus say such. However, the way FM players usually build tactics means they won't get outplayed "statistically" all season anyway. To put it in another way: If they did park the bus or counter themselves, they'd likely experience it all, except the reverse way. I don't just do that, I watch games too as I've stated many times and what i'm seeing is the AI scoring an abundance of cheap goals(+ all the o.g's I concede) and me to continue to miss a lot of very good chances(I have explained this a lot). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Rubbish, I can show you lots of games where I was dominated and won some points.If you want a discussion you at least have to be honest. Totally honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbokav1971 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sorry fella's I honestly believe you are trying to help, but I don't agree with what your saying.Now be honest, what do football teams do at the end of games when they desperately want/need a goal? remember to answer honestly. I also need to go eat, but if anyone is still interested in a discussion about all this i'll be back soon. I completely agree that the first and most basic option is to throw more players forward, (ie. be more attacking). Sometimes though, you need to do something different. Change something. Sometimes it is the old tried and trusted option of the centre-half with very little technical ability who has never scored more than 2 goals a season getting lumped at front at the death that can do it. It's not because the team is "more attacking". It's because he is a different option to what they had before. Of course the answer is you go more attacking initially, but if that doesn't work then you have to try something new or you just..... will fail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Rubbish, I can show you lots of games where I was dominated and won some points.If you want a discussion you at least have to be honest. I can show you seasons of this happening. I designed a tactic that was specifically made to do this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameuss Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sorry fella's I honestly believe you are trying to help, but I don't agree with what your saying.Now be honest, what do football teams do at the end of games when they desperately want/need a goal? remember to answer honestly. I also need to go eat, but if anyone is still interested in a discussion about all this i'll be back soon. You're expecting us to say "attack", so you can slink off feeling justified, but I'm afraid you're not going to get that. That is one option, but it's incredibly simplistic, and probably symptomatic of what you're having problems with. Put it this way, you're having the situation where you're attacking, and your solution to this not working is to attack harder. You're by and large playing into the opposition's hands. They sit deep, pack the box, so you're forced to shoot from range. Now instead think about you changing your approach radically. Your opposition is expecting you to cross every ball, or play it through the middle every time, or whatever you usually do. When you change this - perhaps moving from pressing way up the pitch, to dropping a lot deeper - you force the opposition to change too. It's very unlikely that when you drop deeper, the opposition will just stay the same. They'll come forward, and suddenly their gameplan - which in your case is probably just to defend deep and counter - is out of the window. You're beating them at their own game. But instead, you're firing ball after ball forward, and they're loving it. Surely that's not too hard to see? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 They don't just attack more. They change how they attack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameuss Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Even though Ackter and Jimbo have probably given a better one-sentence on it, I'd put it as the below. If you think you're genuinely dominating a game, but not winning, then give the opposition defence something different to think about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob1000 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'll stay tuned, but I really need a rest and some food. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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