Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
PaulC

Match Engine Update 13.1.3 - quick overview. ME feedback here please.

Recommended Posts

It's all about balance. No overlaps, and you risk running out of passing options, which is bad with an overmanned midfield. With overlaps, you always have the extra man, but will be in trouble if a player makes a bad passing decision.

I'd disagree about the 4-2-4 being flexible. I don't think you can successfully play a short-passing 4-2-4 in modern football. It needs a degree of attacking directness. It is also pretty unusual nowadays.

Maybe, maybe not. I guess it interpretation.

Man Utd.

De Gea

Rafael Rio Evans Evra

Carrick Cleverley

Valencia Young (wide) Rooney RVP (central)

You could argue that Carrick plays DMC or Valencia and Young as conventional wide mids. Finally you could say Rooney plays as a no.10

Equally you can make an argument that its 424.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a period of time, I thought I was playing FML:lol:, unrealistic and unplayable ME, huge quantity of injuries, goalkeepers are even worse, well, I will check back by FM2014 release:D. Loss of time this "update":eek:.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah ive built a tactic in this game basically the exact same way since the TC came into the game, never had to change things much in quite a few years, i've never had to adjust much in the ME updates, even in this one ive changed two player roles and thats it. Keeping it simple is definitely beneficial to being successful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe, maybe not. I guess it interpretation.

Man Utd.

De Gea

Rafael Rio Evans Evra

Carrick Cleverley

Valencia Young (wide) Rooney RVP (central)

You could argue that Carrick plays DMC or Valencia and Young as conventional wide mids. Finally you could say Rooney plays as a no.10

Equally you can make an argument that its 424.

In United's case there are always overlaps, especially down the left with Evra. Carrick is also more direct to the flanks, particularly to Valencia. And the front two are generally split forwards. And if we are talking about this season then Rooney is almost exclusively a 10 when asked to drop deep. Often lot closer to 4-2-3-1 that 4-2-4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to comment on the most common issues people are suggesting (shots and injuries). My first 2 games of the new patch have been the following in the bottom tier of swedish football against 2 teams in the same division:

Shots: 16 v 9

Injuries: 1 Knock v 1 Injury

Shots: 11 v 5

Injuries: 0 v 1 Knock

POSITIVES:

Gameplay is realistic for this division now

shouts seem to make a difference to how my team play - as do opposition instructions

Closing down is great with end-to-end action.

Wing play is good with dangerous crosses both from deep and the byline

Center backs ratings seem improved (noticed in the last one, defenders seemed to get consistently average/bad ratings)

Midfield play is great with just the right amount of fluid movement and through balls

Not as many stupid long shots

Players decision making and ball tracking seem much improved

Ball pace and trajectory is much improved

Goalkeepers don't make weird saves any more and I seem to be picking up on the FM13 added annimations more.

NEGATIVES:

Defensive line seems very high. Even on defensive and dropping deeper, I was caught with my D-line almost on the half way line

When in wide positions, players still seem to regularly charge along the byline towards the goalkeeper pointlessly

OVERALL:

Hardly the worst negatives in the world and the fact they are the only two I can think of, when last time it was immediately obvious there was plenty is fantastic. I'm absolutely loving it again. There's the odd strange moment but this is a simulation after all and it is by no means common or game-changing. The improvements have been so obvious to the way the game is played. Top drawer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In terms of post patch for some reason I'm now scoring more but at the same time conceding more. *Scratches head*

I've only played 5 matches but I've won 3-1, won 2-0, drawn 2-2, drawn 4-4 and lost 3-4 all against teams lower on the table. The first two matches I was predicted to draw and were just scrappy performances with low percentage passes 'ping ponging' around from both sides where my team played poorly but fluked some goals, the other three I was expected to win and pretty much dominated a half scoring all the goals and until the whole thing just flips on its head with my defenders just watching the ball land at the oppositions feet and their keeper making miracle saves while mine concedes from nothing attempts. The same old quick couple of goals in short time to get the opposition back in the contest then a late goal or two in overtime to finish the match off.

Defensive positioning of mid fielder seems to be better now, but passing % seems to have dropped with with a lot more intercepted or just poor passes to the opposition in general. My defenders now seem to stand around and just watch opposition forwards collect long balls then allow them to run and score. My team scoring from corners or set pieces is as rare as rocking horse droppings.

I seem to be able to score 'scrappy' goals and most of my shots on goals from good play are being miraculously saved by the keeper.

Honestly I don't really know what to make of this match engine, on one hand it looks great and presents well, but ultimately it feels like luck plays more of apart in the result than I do once the match starts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe, maybe not. I guess it interpretation.

Man Utd.

De Gea

Rafael Rio Evans Evra

Carrick Cleverley

Valencia Young (wide) Rooney RVP (central)

You could argue that Carrick plays DMC or Valencia and Young as conventional wide mids. Finally you could say Rooney plays as a no.10

Equally you can make an argument that its 424.

I'm happy to accept that Man Utd play an attacking, direct 4-4-2/4-2-4 at times in the EPL, especially when going behind. However, as Ferguson has pointed out in the past, he regards his core system as being either a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-1-1. When Utd hold these formations, they are less direct/attacking than when they employ/switch to the 4-4-2/4-2-4. The switch to the 4-4-2/4-2-4 requires an increase in energy and directness, which is the argument I directed at higgins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In United's case there are always overlaps, especially down the left with Evra. Carrick is also more direct to the flanks, particularly to Valencia. And the front two are generally split forwards. And if we are talking about this season then Rooney is almost exclusively a 10 when asked to drop deep. A lot closer to 4-2-3-1 that 4-2-4.

Mmmm, yes I can see that. But I don't see the defenders smashing long to the wingers frequently. i don't see Utd clearing the ball and running up the halfway line to play a high line and sometimes its Hernandez and not Rooney and Hernandez definitely isn't a no.10.

Lets say its a hybrid between 424 and 4231. My point is that formation is flexible and it doesn't have to be a long ball target man system which I have repeatedly seen WWFan highlight it to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mmmm, yes I can see that. But I don't see the defenders smashing long to the wingers frequently. i don't see Utd clearing the ball and running up the halfway line to play a high line and sometimes its Hernandez and not Rooney and Hernandez definitely isn't a no.10.

Lets say its a hybrid between 424 and 4231. My point is that formation is flexible and it doesn't have to be a long ball target man system which I have repeatedly seen WWFan highlight it to be.

I haven't said that at all. I've said it needs to be attacking and direct. Absolutely no need to have a TM in a 4-2-4 if you don't want one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to sum up my opinion on the match engine. IT'S WRONG. People are having to build their team and tactics around the match engine. That's just un-acceptable for a game of this reputation and especially with such a high price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am going to sum up my opinion on the match engine. IT'S WRONG. People are having to build their team and tactics around the match engine. That's just un-acceptable for a game of this reputation and especially with such a high price.

What makes you say that? Why do you have to build your tactics around the match engine? I haven't found that at all. In fact since the patch, i've found the new ME is very accommodating to many different styles you might want to incorporate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't want to be an arse, but having read through your description of your 4-2-4, your system has some serious structural deficiencies. Your short passing instructions for your back line will hinder the possibility of their being able to get the ball upfield to the wingers. They have to go through the central midfield. With the previous ME, not so much of a problem, as the low final third pressing meant they could easily recycle the ball. Now they are under a little more pressure, the lack of passing options will result in regularly losing possession in dangerous areas. Your undermanned midfield and light tackling wingers will then struggle to cope with the counters. You are also very one dimensional in attack, relying on one DLP to spray passes to four attackers, with no overlaps out of defence.

You have some good ideas in your tactic, but I'd argue they aren't being interpreted into the system properly. That, I'd 100% accept, is the fault of the poor in-game documentation.

I'm happy to see you've read my blog mate but you probably missed my last post, I'm no more playing with that 4-2-4 ( there are no structural deficiencies in it, sorry, I have two men on support duties that could make my short passing system work well) you're referring to, I'm using a 4-2-3-1 that works in a different manner ( however the right back was used to overlap quite frequently in that system as well, offering a fifth attacking option to my DLP) but it doesn't matter, I'm not sure what do you mean when you talk about "the previous ME", do you mean FM12?

I hope you don't mean "the ME before this last patch", right? Because it would be amazing to know that every patch is supposed to radically change the ME from this moment on, my tactics usually try to translate real football concepts into the ME and my ideas worked quite well so far; I'm not here to take part in a football tactics knowledge contest, the problem is a game that is going toward an arcade dimension I really dislike.

We are supposed to play the game in a monodimensional way to have success, your own way, but football is surely a different thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am going to sum up my opinion on the match engine. IT'S WRONG. People are having to build their team and tactics around the match engine. That's just un-acceptable for a game of this reputation and especially with such a high price.

No they don't. A sound tactical system works in any ME. You can adapt this system to produce a plethora of tactical shapes and styles. It really isn't rocket science and it can be done almost entirely through the TC and shouts.

I will happily accept that there is a lack in documentation explaining how to do this, which, it seems to me, is the real problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going to say I am pretty happy with the match engine now though only losing 1 of 17 games so far playing on it may bias my opinion a bit! The totally awful defending has gone away and goalies no longer get outjumped by a striker. I have noticed there are a lot less shots as well which is fine by me as I was seeing 30+ in a match regularly before. Not had the same injuries as anybody else.

My only negative is probably the fact I have only let in 5 goals in 11 league games so far. My defence is honestly not that good but the game makes them look like world beaters!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was pretty happy with the previous ME. I found that I was able to get the team mostly doing the right thing - even got the through balls controlled after tweaking instructions.

So, in a few games with the new one, it seems a bit worse for my defence. That may be that my D needs some work, but I've grabbed a couple examples of the type of goals I've seen.

I should have switched my quality, but you can get the idea here. Both of my DCS /react/ to this super long pass very quickly. They both start sprinting back and seem to have a good 10 feet on the striker. However, neither one of them seems to get a foot on the ball and James steps between and scores the goal. Is this the two DCs not communicating who was going to kick the ball? From my view point, it looked like either of them had a couple steps on James to clear that ball to the flanks.

[video=youtube;tygoJFMmTQg]

Second one is perhaps an animation glitch. My fullback goes out wide to close down a winger and he just ... walks past him. The winger is wide open to run toward the box and make an easy pass for a goal. I'd get it if my winger went on the other side to try to make an interception and failed - but he just misses the close down altogether on the non-ball side.

[video=youtube;DkrZDqHz9-k]

These are not the type of goals I was seeing in the previous ME. And while I've only played 4 games on the new ME, I feel like I've seen a lot of this. Though balls aren't quite as obvious, but strikers simply streaking past the Defence seems to be more pronounced. Also, wingers going unmolested down the wings to the touch line and drilling a cross is much more apparent than before. (Even when covered, the Fullbacks seem unwilling to attempt a tackle at any point.)

(Edit: If it matters, I'm playing a pretty simple 4-4-2 without a lot of special instructions. Usually just tweaks for the pitch, weather and tactics of the opposition.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm happy to see you've read my blog mate but you probably missed my last post, I'm no more playing with that 4-2-4 ( there are no structural deficiencies in it, sorry) you're referring to, I'm using a 4-2-3-1 that works in a different manner ( however the right back was used to overlap quite frequently in that system as well, offering a fifth attacking option to my DLP) but it doesn't matter, I'm not sure what do you mean when you talk about "the previous ME", do you mean FM12?

I hope you don't mean "the ME before this last patch", right? Because it would be amazing to know that every patch is supposed to radically change the ME from this moment on, my tactics usually try to translate real football concepts into the ME and my ideas worked quite well so far; I'm not here to take part in a football tactics knowledge contest, the problem is a game that is going toward an arcade dimension I really dislike.

We are supposed to play the game in a monodimensional way to have success, your own way, but football is surely a different thing.

I don't think it is going 'arcade' at all. Maybe your 4-2-3-1 is structurally excellent. I don't know as I haven't seen it. I do stand by my analysis of the 4-2-4 though. I just don't think it should work all that well because of the limitations I pointed out. I think a non-direct, non-attacking, non-aggressive 4-2-4 would also fail in the real world, for the very same reasons.

I think the ideas informing your 4-2-4 would be very logical if the formation was a deepish 4-2-3-1 or a deep 4-4-2 (2 DMs, MR/L). That way you'd have the midfield presence to take simple possession from the back line and build attacks from that interaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I set a team up to play short passing football where i aim to keep the ball for long periods pushing the other team back deep making it hard for them to push up the field and cause problems when they win the ball back. Since the match engine update you can't keep possession for long periods of time and most through balls and long balls are being played and the possession isn't which team keeps the ball better anymore, it's which team doesn't give the ball away as quickly. Due to this updated match engine and the way players constantly try ambitious through/long passes my tactics don't work. Before update they was working perfectly, i went a whole league season unbeaten only conceding 14 goals and scoring the second highest scorers. My first 5 games after the update i concede 9 goals and i never get more than 60% possession which i had in most games before the update.

I have seen so many posts on here saying to people that 'you just need to tinker with your tactics a bit'. That proves the match engine is a factor on how you play the game. It should always be down to the players and tactics and touchline instructions. The match engine should never influence how someone wants to set their team up and it certainly should not make a tactic (which took well over a season and many players going in and out of the club to perfect) go from brilliant to average/poor.

Just to make this clear, this is not me moaning because i am losing games all of a sudden. i have played 8, won 6, drew 2.

What makes you say that? Why do you have to build your tactics around the match engine? I haven't found that at all. In fact since the patch, i've found the new ME is very accommodating to many different styles you might want to incorporate

I set a team up to play short passing football where i aim to keep the ball for long periods pushing the other team back deep making it hard for them to push up the field and cause problems when they win the ball back. Since the match engine update you can't keep possession for long periods of time and most through balls and long balls are being played and the possession isn't which team keeps the ball better anymore, it's which team doesn't give the ball away as quickly. Due to this updated match engine and the way players constantly try ambitious through/long passes my tactics don't work. Before update they was working perfectly, i went a whole league season unbeaten only conceding 14 goals and scoring the second highest scorers. My first 5 games after the update i concede 9 goals and i never get more than 60% possession which i had in most games before the update.

I have seen so many posts on here saying to people that 'you just need to tinker with your tactics a bit'. That proves the match engine is a factor on how you play the game. It should always be down to the players and tactics and touchline instructions. The match engine should never influence how someone wants to set their team up and it certainly should not make a tactic (which took well over a season and many players going in and out of the club to perfect) go from brilliant to average/poor.

Just to make this clear, this is not me moaning because i am losing games all of a sudden. i have played 8, won 6, drew 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saying 3-5-1-1 is sound means nothing without going into how you expect it to work. All formations are sound if you get them working properly.

I did extremely well experimenting with a long ball game in FM12 and have already advised somebody how to reproduce it (successfully) in FM13. Don't confuse the necessity of a sound structure with the inability to play different styles of football. If you have a sound core structure, you can adapt it to produce all kinds of football, from the 1980s British game to a modern short passing, countering at pace system.

But what I'm saying is that not all kinds of football can be reproduced in a viable way in FM, and that the set of viable tactics do change between iterations of the match engine.

Just look at the narrow 3-4-3 that Barcelona used last season for an example: three central defenders, a narrow diamond midfield, a false nine, and two wide strikers. It clearly worked in real football, yet it would probably give you some horribly bad results if you tried to emulate it in FM: without the whole team shuttling across the width of the pitch to close down the opponents in packs, your flanks would be horribly open, and the central defenders don't properly mark players in wide positions. (To be fair, I haven't actually tried any extremely narrow tactic in this version of the match engine, but I haven't seen any changes that would make me think that it's suddenly a good tactic)

Does that mean that the tactic is not structurally sound?

If it works in real life, at the highest possible level, isn't that pretty much a guarantee that it is a "structurally sound" tactic, whether it's possible to "get to work properly" or not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow.

wwfan. I've read what you've posted on this thread and taken note and applied this to my 4-4-2 that I couldn't get working.

Early signs are proving very promising.

I have an amazing 2 regens, a left winger and a striker and both 'should' be playing amazing because looking at their stats, they are already world class.

I've changed a few things and finally, they're performing.

Early days, but you're absolutely bang on the money about being tactically sound - as a quick example, I was not allowing my team freedom to play in some areas, which meant losing possession and the ball not going to the areas I'm strong in etc.

I've had to really re-thing my approach and having done so, I've seen some light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tried the new ME and there are a lot of OGs to be fair but I think this version must just be too hard for me as I cant even beat the likes of Bristol City or Stoke as Man Utd using the most basic tactics. I know it's also my tactics but this new added difficulty is making FM feel like a chore. We went the whole 90 minutes without so much as a half chance and to me its just not fun any more- I don't want to spend hours studying games of football to be honest and Im sure the game is like mana from heaven to the budding tacticians amongst the FM community but FM for me wasn't about making sure I was closing down X player or whether I needed to play with a Defensive Midfielder, for me it was about developing youngsters into top class players and watching them thrive.

I'd like to thank everyone in the community for some fascinating threads and the careers are always a great read but I think this is the end of the road for me. The game has become too tactics orientated and thats just not for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, in a few games with the new one, it seems a bit worse for my defence. That may be that my D needs some work, but I've grabbed a couple examples of the type of goals I've seen.

I should have switched my quality, but you can get the idea here. Both of my DCS /react/ to this super long pass very quickly. They both start sprinting back and seem to have a good 10 feet on the striker. However, neither one of them seems to get a foot on the ball and James steps between and scores the goal. Is this the two DCs not communicating who was going to kick the ball? From my view point, it looked like either of them had a couple steps on James to clear that ball to the flanks.

Second one is perhaps an animation glitch. My fullback goes out wide to close down a winger and he just ... walks past him. The winger is wide open to run toward the box and make an easy pass for a goal. I'd get it if my winger went on the other side to try to make an interception and failed - but he just misses the close down altogether on the non-ball side.

These are not the type of goals I was seeing in the previous ME. And while I've only played 4 games on the new ME, I feel like I've seen a lot of this. Though balls aren't quite as obvious, but strikers simply streaking past the Defence seems to be more pronounced. Also, wingers going unmolested down the wings to the touch line and drilling a cross is much more apparent than before. (Even when covered, the Fullbacks seem unwilling to attempt a tackle at any point.)

(Edit: If it matters, I'm playing a pretty simple 4-4-2 without a lot of special instructions. Usually just tweaks for the pitch, weather and tactics of the opposition.)

Yeah, defense is pretty broken in this ME. You can't control it through tweaking anything, it's just flat out broken. Whenever your defenders see a through ball coming, they kinda just turn themselves off. Your first video was a clear through ball, which explains why you were scored on. And in your second video, as soon as Kerkar started pushing forward and went through your line, it was a through ball, causing your FB to turn himself off.

I really hope it doesn't take until Christmas to fix this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think it is going 'arcade' at all. Maybe your 4-2-3-1 is structurally excellent. I don't know as I haven't seen it. I do stand by my analysis of the 4-2-4 though. I just don't think it should work all that well because of the limitations I pointed out. I think a non-direct, non-attacking, non-aggressive 4-2-4 would also fail in the real world, for the very same reasons.

I think the ideas informing your 4-2-4 would be very logical if the formation was a deepish 4-2-3-1 or a deep 4-4-2 (2 DMs, MR/L). That way you'd have the midfield presence to take simple possession from the back line and build attacks from that interaction.

I have to disagree, Antonio Conte played a winning 4-2-4 with Siena that wasn't direct, everything was based on slow build-up from the back.The directness thing is just your own thought, not a dogma (and my 4-2-4 worked amazingly, I won Eredivisie with Utrecht in season one with it, better than Conte's one :thup:)

You didn't answer about the ME question though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I set a team up to play short passing football where i aim to keep the ball for long periods pushing the other team back deep making it hard for them to push up the field and cause problems when they win the ball back. Since the match engine update you can't keep possession for long periods of time and most through balls and long balls are being played and the possession isn't which team keeps the ball better anymore, it's which team doesn't give the ball away as quickly. Due to this updated match engine and the way players constantly try ambitious through/long passes my tactics don't work. Before update they was working perfectly, i went a whole league season unbeaten only conceding 14 goals and scoring the second highest scorers. My first 5 games after the update i concede 9 goals and i never get more than 60% possession which i had in most games before the update.

I have seen so many posts on here saying to people that 'you just need to tinker with your tactics a bit'. That proves the match engine is a factor on how you play the game. It should always be down to the players and tactics and touchline instructions. The match engine should never influence how someone wants to set their team up and it certainly should not make a tactic (which took well over a season and many players going in and out of the club to perfect) go from brilliant to average/poor.

Just to make this clear, this is not me moaning because i am losing games all of a sudden. i have played 8, won 6, drew 2.

You can't just walk into a club and suddenly play a possession game you build a base system you want to play and adapt it to the players you have and over time get players in that work better with your philosophy. I would imagine most managers in the world would PREFER to play attractive, passing football but not everybody can.

Brenden Rogers has arguable better players at his disposal at Liverpool than at Swansea and has brought in better ball-playing players but these things take time and the right training and players to fit the roles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have seen so many posts on here saying to people that 'you just need to tinker with your tactics a bit'. That proves the match engine is a factor on how you play the game. It should always be down to the players and tactics and touchline instructions. The match engine should never influence how someone wants to set their team up and it certainly should not make a tactic (which took well over a season and many players going in and out of the club to perfect) go from brilliant to average/poor.

It took me 5 minutes to make the tactic I'm still using. All TC defaults bar toning down long shots for one MC (who has the long shots PPM) and setting up specified PMs and TM supply (was to feet, now run onto ball for my poacher). I've changed three other things over 4 seasons. I get the same results spread in every engine, Beta, release, current.

1: I inherited two TMs, but wanted a creative DLF. I switched from using a TM/S & AF combo to a DLF & Poacher combo once I found the right player

2: My defence is fast with excellent positioning, but small. I expect them to defend TBs well. To cover the danger of crosses, I push them up higher and narrower, relying on their speed to close down the crosser and ensuring the area is packed enough to make successfully heading a cross difficult should the cross come in.

3: I managed to snap up a creative MC, meaning I switched from a BWM & MC central midfield to a BWM & AP midfield.

The only other things I do is use shouts to setup a preferred playing style, cope with conditions or react to match situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can't just walk into a club and suddenly play a possession game you build a base system you want to play and adapt it to the players you have and over time get players in that work better with your philosophy. I would imagine most managers in the world would PREFER to play attractive, passing football but not everybody can.

Brenden Rogers has arguable better players at his disposal at Liverpool than at Swansea and has brought in better ball-playing players but these things take time and the right training and players to fit the roles.

That's why there's the tactics preparation thing when you hover over a tactic which shows how well your team has adapted to your instructions. Most of the time the all the bars are full after a few games which indicates to the manager, the team has adapted 100%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But what I'm saying is that not all kinds of football can be reproduced in a viable way in FM, and that the set of viable tactics do change between iterations of the match engine.

Just look at the narrow 3-4-3 that Barcelona used last season for an example: three central defenders, a narrow diamond midfield, a false nine, and two wide strikers. It clearly worked in real football, yet it would probably give you some horribly bad results if you tried to emulate it in FM: without the whole team shuttling across the width of the pitch to close down the opponents in packs, your flanks would be horribly open, and the central defenders don't properly mark players in wide positions. (To be fair, I haven't actually tried any extremely narrow tactic in this version of the match engine, but I haven't seen any changes that would make me think that it's suddenly a good tactic)

Does that mean that the tactic is not structurally sound?

If it works in real life, at the highest possible level, isn't that pretty much a guarantee that it is a "structurally sound" tactic, whether it's possible to "get to work properly" or not?

I'd expect the Barca system to work if the roles and duties were sound and the strategy and philosophy suited the formation. It might not produce exactly the same patterns as Barca, but it should still be viable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's why there's the tactics preparation thing when you hover over a tactic which shows how well your team has adapted to your instructions. Most of the time the all the bars are full after a few games which indicates to the manager, the team has adapted 100%

Yes, but you can have adapted to a system without being very good at your role within it. That's to say, I can know my role within my team perfectly but that doesn't mean i'm automatically going to do it well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to disagree, Antonio Conte played a winning 4-2-4 with Siena that wasn't direct, everything was based on slow build-up from the back.The directness thing is just your own thought, not a dogma (and my 4-2-4 worked amazingly, I won Eredivisie with Utrecht in season one with it, better than Conte's one :thup:)

You didn't answer about the ME question though.

Do you have any references to descriptions about Conte' system? It flies against everything I've read and know about modern and historical football tactics. Always willing to learn.

I meant the release ME.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can't just walk into a club and suddenly play a possession game you build a base system you want to play and adapt it to the players you have and over time get players in that work better with your philosophy. I would imagine most managers in the world would PREFER to play attractive, passing football but not everybody can.

Brenden Rogers has arguable better players at his disposal at Liverpool than at Swansea and has brought in better ball-playing players but these things take time and the right training and players to fit the roles.

I am 3 seasons into my game. I have completely refurbished my Liverpool team. I won the league (unbeaten and conceded less than 20 goals) and champions league last year. I didn't still in the club and get it working straight away. It took a lot of tinkering, not until half way through my second season did it really become really effective.

This is why i am so annoyed with it now. I put all that work into this formation and sold big players to bring in players who would suit this formation and play style perfectly and now this update has happened and i's now nowhere near as effective as previously. That shouldn't happen. A match engine update should not decide how my tactics work and should not have to make me change around with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am 3 seasons into my game. I have completely refurbished my Liverpool team. I won the league (unbeaten and conceded less than 20 goals) and champions league last year. I didn't still in the club and get it working straight away. It took a lot of tinkering, not until half way through my second season did it really become really effective.

This is why i am so annoyed with it now. I put all that work into this formation and sold big players to bring in players who would suit this formation and play style perfectly and now this update has happened and i's now nowhere near as effective as previously. That shouldn't happen. A match engine update should not decide how my tactics work and should not have to make me change around with it.

Well, I don't know why you expect 60% possession every game. 55%+ is considered as dominating possession in my eyes. The previous ME was far too easy to dominate possession and for players to have 100+ passes. Now you have to think about the roles and what not (tweaking through balls, run with ball, hold up ball for your midfielders and wingers). Look at your team instructions and passing style (such as tempo, pressing).

By definition, high possession teams have high pressing all the way up the pitch, slow tempo and not so many through balls / long shots. You also need to get your individual roles right to match your players too without having too many playmakers and what not.

Also - why shouldn't you have to 'tweak your tactics a little bit'? Do you think in real life football you can just play however you THINK should work, and expect it to work without counting the opposition, conditions, form, motivation etc. etc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you have any references to descriptions about Conte' system? It flies against everything I've read and know about modern and historical football tactics. Always willing to learn.

I meant the release ME.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/23/antonio-contes-system-isnt-a-4-2-4-but-still-provides-excitement/

http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/p6_67_5931_a-master-of-serie-b-is-antonio-conte-ready-to-take-on-a-serie-a-side.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you have any references to descriptions about Conte' system? It flies against everything I've read and know about modern and historical football tactics. Always willing to learn.

I meant the release ME.

Lots of Italian newspaper talked about that, Giampiero Ventura some years ago played a similar system, managing Bari in serie A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you have any references to descriptions about Conte' system? It flies against everything I've read and know about modern and historical football tactics. Always willing to learn.

I meant the release ME.

I've found a little bit out.

It looks to me that Conte played a hybrid of a 4-3-3 & 4-2-2-2. It might be difficult to interpret this into FM. Closest I can get would be:

GK: GK/D

DR: FB/S

DCs: DC/D

DL: WB/A

DMCL: DM/D

MCR: MC/S

MR: WM/S

AML: W/A

FCs: assuming one DLF, one AF, probably the FCL as DLF, FCR as AF

Very difficult to tell how direct/slow it might have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, defense is pretty broken in this ME. You can't control it through tweaking anything, it's just flat out broken. Whenever your defenders see a through ball coming, they kinda just turn themselves off. Your first video was a clear through ball, which explains why you were scored on. And in your second video, as soon as Kerkar started pushing forward and went through your line, it was a through ball, causing your FB to turn himself off.

I really hope it doesn't take until Christmas to fix this.

I'm not quite ready to write it off. I had troubles with the previous ME too and solved those ok. I just thought both of these goals shouldn't have happened - or not how they played out.

I can likely prevent those situations by dropping my D line a bit and not having my fullbacks close down as much. (Though, that's kinda what they're supposed to do.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am 3 seasons into my game. I have completely refurbished my Liverpool team. I won the league (unbeaten and conceded less than 20 goals) and champions league last year. I didn't still in the club and get it working straight away. It took a lot of tinkering, not until half way through my second season did it really become really effective.

This is why i am so annoyed with it now. I put all that work into this formation and sold big players to bring in players who would suit this formation and play style perfectly and now this update has happened and i's now nowhere near as effective as previously. That shouldn't happen. A match engine update should not decide how my tactics work and should not have to make me change around with it.

What is more frustrating to me is that sometimes the difference between a sucessful tactic and a bad one is something as simple as changing the role of one player or two.

This, to me, is the biggest flaw in every ME.

You can make a very balanced tactic, with a logical setup, with logical roles and with the right players. But you always have to get the little "click" that will make you tactic succeed. So many times the diference is a RWB often or rare, a Long shot often or rare... and this to me it's not logical.

But dont get me wrong, i think this ME is the best ever release. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I don't know why you expect 60% possession every game. 55%+ is considered as dominating possession in my eyes. The previous ME was far too easy to dominate possession and for players to have 100+ passes. Now you have to think about the roles and what not (tweaking through balls, run with ball, hold up ball for your midfielders and wingers). Look at your team instructions and passing style (such as tempo, pressing).

By definition, high possession teams have high pressing all the way up the pitch, slow tempo and not so many through balls / long shots. You also need to get your individual roles right to match your players too without having too many playmakers and what not.

Also - why shouldn't you have to 'tweak your tactics a little bit'? Do you think in real life football you can just play however you THINK should work, and expect it to work without counting the opposition, conditions, form, motivation etc. etc?

I don't think you understand what i'm saying. I spent a long time in this save building my teams to play a certain way. I sold many players and bought many players and i got my tactic working exactly how i wanted it. I had periods of bad form where the team didn't keep possession well and i had periods of form where my team kept possession amazingly. Form has nothing to do with anything i am saying. What i am saying is this update has changed the way the match engine works and the way tactics work. That should not be happening a few weeks through a game when people like myself have spent so long building a team to play to the tactics you want them to play to.

Updates should be for fixing bugs and not changing the way the match engine works. That should be completed before the game is released

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've found a little bit out.

It looks to me that Conte played a hybrid of a 4-3-3 & 4-2-2-2. It might be difficult to interpret this into FM. Closest I can get would be:

GK: GK/D

DR: FB/S

DCs: DC/D

DL: WB/A

DMCL: DM/D

MCR: MC/S

MR: WM/S

AML: W/A

FCs: assuming one DLF, one AF, probably the FCL as DLF, FCR as AF

Very difficult to tell how direct/slow it might have been.

Conte's full-backs rarely went forward, so in FM terms they were on defensive duties, wingers were proper wingers, just one a bit more defensive, but his system wasn't direct at all, at least not from the back as defenders always tried to pass the ball to central midfielders (one DLP and the other one more dynamic) through a short passing system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Match Engine is much better now.

Not perfect, but better.

At least it looks like football now.

I have changed out of my NO STRIKER formation that pretty much leant on the Match Engines faults to make it hard for the AI to attack me, and to stop me.

I had won everything with that formation, but it wasnt like football, was the only formation i could play successfully that at least tried to be flowing football.

I now run a proper formation, with realistic settings, and it looks and feels like football.

ACTUAL MIDFIELD BATTLE is fought out with midfielders.

Injuries i would bet my house on, are from people with MASSIVE CLOSING DOWN, and hard tackling.

As well as playing against teams with those settings.

There are so many more challenges now, an actual fight for possession, that with crazy aggresive settings, injuries are being picked up.

Also too many people relying on the 5 defender exploit of the ME, and the way your could infinitely pass like barcelona with no one trying to tackle you.

Now the same tactic means the opposition midfield wins the battle against former exploit tactics and you cant get forward.

EXCELLENT

Would like to see the through balls that hit opposition players toned down a little, See a little more fluid movement in players coming not just short to get the ball, but also shifting sideways into space.

The other big thing is, when one player is away FAR up the pitch, and the rest of your team is long way back.

The rest of your team wont SPRINT forward till your forward player reaches near the opposition penalty box,

They WALK, WALK, WALK, WALK, you get near opposition penalty box, SUDDENLY THEY SPRINT TO HELP

Make it so attacking players with attacking settings try and get forward to support faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All talking about a high line and aggressive running. Which kind of supports the point I was trying to make.

A high line is not always linked with direct passing, everything passed through the DLP who was used to spread the ball to wingers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second one is perhaps an animation glitch. My fullback goes out wide to close down a winger and he just ... walks past him. The winger is wide open to run toward the box and make an easy pass for a goal. I'd get it if my winger went on the other side to try to make an interception and failed - but he just misses the close down altogether on the non-ball side.

[video=youtube;DkrZDqHz9-k]

Umm, simply looks like to me he failed with his anticipation, positioning, concentration and decision making.

As you said the defender moves out to the player, seems to anticipate him receiving the ball and going wide, so tries to position himself to block him and tackle.

The player instead recieves the ball, touches it to the inside, wrong footing the player and going past him.

Im going to guess and say you had man marking, probably tight marking on.

Your player has tried to do exactly that, the game has calculated his anticipation, position, concentration, decision making. Decided to make him react like that

Has calculated similar for the attacking player, attacking player has out witted him, Goal.

IMO, thats football and need to see more of this in the Match Engine NOT LESS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Umm, simply looks like to me he failed with his anticipation, positioning, concentration and decision making.

As you said the defender moves out to the player, seems to anticipate him receiving the ball and going wide, so tries to position himself to block him and tackle.

The player instead recieves the ball, touches it to the inside, wrong footing the player and going past him.

Im going to guess and say you had man marking, probably tight marking on.

Your player has tried to do exactly that, the game has calculated his anticipation, position, concentration, decision making. Decided to make him react like that

Has calculated similar for the attacking player, attacking player has out witted him, Goal.

IMO, thats football and need to see more of this in the Match Engine NOT LESS.

He wasn't tight marking. Might have been on man mark. I don't recall what he defaults to out there with a standard mentality. The closing down was unadjusted - but it has been noted that players will be generally more aggressive.

I get being beaten / outwitted. I just find this animation to be poorly done, I guess. He's cutting wide before the winger ever touches the ball. Why would the winger even consider going wide now that I've opened up a straight path to the net?

So, yeah, maybe it's a stats check that he failed and it turned into a mistake. I can deal with that. I just haven't seen anything quite so blatant in 2.5 seasons with the other ME. (Plenty of mistakes, just none where my player charged in and veered in the wrong direction).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

defender got tackled, after not passing, balled crossed to maked player and scored. i thought defenders started looking for the pass.

while I pelt the opposition and thier keeper saves everything. i know you increased keeping at close range but took 80 minutes to score against a team who have 2 shots on target to my 12...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A high line is not always linked with direct passing, everything passed through the DLP who was used to spread the ball to wingers.

I'm not seeing that interpretation from the, admittedly little, stuff I've read. It seems it requires a high line, energetic midfielders and out and out wingers (at least in its most attacking variant). I can accept that the DLP was fundamental to its success, but I'd struggle to accept it was inherently a slow tempo tactic or that the ball was always played short out of defence. The YouTube videos of Conte's Siena seem to suggest they are at least reasonably high tempo and direct, with the FBs pushing up quickly in support of the wingers and regularly hitting first time direct passes to the FCs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not quite ready to write it off. I had troubles with the previous ME too and solved those ok. I just thought both of these goals shouldn't have happened - or not how they played out.

I can likely prevent those situations by dropping my D line a bit and not having my fullbacks close down as much. (Though, that's kinda what they're supposed to do.)

You're right, they shouldn't have played out like that at all.

It's not so much that they make a mistake, but when they do let someone through (all the time), even if you don't think that's a problem the amount of time it takes for them to actually start working properly again is ridiculous. If your FB opened up a hole by thinking that the winger would be wide and the winger exploited that - so be it. But why, then, does the FB proceed to strafe the player outside of the goal line? That kind of reaction is a broken one. I understand that he wouldn't want to open up more holes, but at that point any defender in real life would be scrambling his butt off to stop the striker he just let through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with pretty much everything Sarin1 said. I think it was the result of wrong anticipation and even worse decision making. I don't think it's an ME issue, otherwise others would have brought this up already. Yes, the defender moved before the winger, which is probably against Defenders' Guide 101 = bad decisionmaking. But the important thing to notice is that the defender waited until the winger received the ball, then he moved. In other words, he expected the winger to go wide with his first touch. If he was right, it's a brilliant tackle. If he's wrong, well, we know the rest of the story. So I doubt it was a tactics issue with your FB.

Tactically speaking, though, your CBs were too close together IMO. If they were spread a little farther apart and if they were a bit more aggresive instead of retreating, they might have prevented the goal. If I was managing your team in that match, the CB tactical settings would be the first thing I'd look at to see why they behaved like that. But the fault still lies with your FB. (Second thing I might do is sub out the FB :lol:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm nearing the end of my Championship season. Had a National Team downtime period for like 13 days and ever since the update from yesterday it's like bloodshed everywhere. Before the number of injuries was acceptable for someone who has played the game fore 12 Years but all of the sudden when i simulate a day i get like 5 injury reports from all over the world . Players on my shortlist are getting injured like it's a plague or something. To top this up my players are starting to fall 1 each day. I had 115 hours in before this patch appeared and now everything seems to fall apart. This didn't happen before.

I know how to handle pre-season training and in-game training, but this is too much. And to say that my training is faulty then what about the computer controlled teams? Are they failing too all of the sudden?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're right, they shouldn't have played out like that at all.

It's not so much that they make a mistake, but when they do let someone through (all the time), even if you don't think that's a problem the amount of time it takes for them to actually start working properly again is ridiculous. If your FB opened up a hole by thinking that the winger would be wide and the winger exploited that - so be it. But why, then, does the FB proceed to strafe the player outside of the goal line? That kind of reaction is a broken one. I understand that he wouldn't want to open up more holes, but at that point any defender in real life would be scrambling his butt off to stop the striker he just let through.

I don't think the FB reaction was too far out of the ordinary. He probably should've sprinted immediately, but then you could argue the winger should've sprinted, too, immediately after the hole opened up. Neither started sprinting for a like a second or two afterward. It was not a matter of strafing the winger. Ask yourself, "How many defenders can catch up to a winger after being completely wrong footed?" The video looks completely fine to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...