Don't know about anyone else but I'm finding it far more difficult to succeed this FM

[KevMaaan]

My players think standing still iun a triangle and tapping the ball between the three of them is acceptable when 2-0 down. Rage.

Also, they simply WONT follow any tactical instruction :x

[Soninho]

With a new ME this game will probably not be 100% reliable. For me the fm11 ME worked out best for my tactics and the players did exactly what I wanted from them. In fm12 I struggled a little bit more with tactics. My players didn't follow my instructions etc. but I still found it to be easier to win in fm12 than fm11. Maybe too easy Fm13 ME probably needs a few tweakes to get all people satisfied, but they never are

[BiggusD]

I think I have managed to tweak my tactic so that they behave much like Real Madrid would in real life. The wing-backs join the attack and Ronaldo is cutting inside and shooting. The tactic creates a lot of chances but remain in control defensively, hardly giving the opponents a sniff. As dominating as I expect RM to be. Not as efficient, but have only drawn once since I took over from my assistant after being on holiday until mid-November (100% tactical familiarity by then).

So in other words, setting defensive line to MAXIMUM has been a major success for me. I recommend trying this if you are struggling to control matches and push the opponent backwards, if not only to see the changes in aggressiveness, initiative and decision-making this does to the entire team! I had to make some rather extreme changes to mentality in some players, though, as well as implementing a DMC.

[carragherisgod]

FM is to hard. FM is to easy. Difficult is a good thing right?

[Chalky1989]

FM is to hard. FM is to easy. Difficult is a good thing right?

I always thought it was fine before. Difficulty was basically chosen by what level of team you picked. Now, even with good teams people are struggling to cope against very average teams on regular basis.

[scott MUFC]

at least with the last FM you had your superior defenders to call upon to score a few from corners

it happened in FM12 as well. i had parts where i brushed aside mid table teams and top teams with 3 or 4 goals, bump into some non confident team on a losing streak and struggle.

[djvandyke]

Results are random and have nothing to do with player attributes.

[jase19]

I'm using Bath in Blue Square South. Currently top of the League after 11 matches. 8 wins. 2 draws. 1 loss. I think we were predicted to finish 3rd so it's not like I'm using a horrible squad but I see a lot of people having issues with United, Spurs, Liverpool...

[Wlv]

I suffered from the aforementioned issues, however doing the following has helped dramatically :-

Changed to a more balanced formation (4-4-2)

Set my wingers to hard tackling (helps stop the oppositions wide play)

Later I set my central midfielders to hard tackling too.

Used Man Marking

Default Training focus to Team Cohesion - very high

Default Pre-Match training - Def. positioning

Only signed a couple players to stop team gelling issues..

After all of the above I've played 8 competitive matches, won 7, drawn 1.

[MartinGregory84]

Inconsistancy is my problem, My strikers are bagging loads of goals but my defenders tend to switch off quite a lot....... JOYS OF THE GAME :-)

[Bluemagic21]

Im having a blast. Started a network with some friends and the wife. Im Southampton and im currently in 1st at the halfway mark. My wife is in 4th with City. She was struggling to get results, so I decided to help by giving her my tactical set up. That was a big mistake! The next match we played i end up losing 3-0. She killed my 18 games without a loss. I am kind of nervous now that her team will finally start playing up to their potential and win the league.

[StewartJRobertson]

As the title reads.

First of all, I've been playing FM since Domark days. I have never been the best tactician, but I usually can hold my own after a bit of trial and error.

I have been trying to start a game with lower scottish league teams, I have tried Clyde and Queens Park.

I won my first game as Clyde manager then lost my next 11. Was driving me nuts, so I decided to start over with QP thinking I had learned from my mistakes, but I achieved similar results.

I decided to start up a second game with Celtic, who I support. I know the players very well and am familiar with their tactics, but I am struggling just above mid table and havent won a single game comfortably. I have tweaked tactics here and there, I have tried different tactics for home and away games. I have tried consistency. I have tried mixing my team selection up. I cannot seem to string two wins together.

Is anyone else finding things incredibly tough going?

[Pipo2525]

Same here playing with Man Utd, nothing I do seems to work although I am using my 2012 tactic which may explain why. I am also using classic tactics so may find myself switching to the TC if things don't improve.

[daylight]

Started my first save with Tonbridge,took a while to get through pre-season and bring in new blood,that save lasted 6 games before I called it quits.

New save with Tonbridge tried a few different things but kept to my 4-2-3-1 formation,it did not last that much longer then my first save.

Decided to go a bit higher up in the leagues and started with Crewe,again a few changes trying different things,still no luck.

Went again with Tonbridge,I had picked up a few things in the previous saves,changed to a 4-3-1-2,changed quite a few things in my tactics and went a head and got new blood in.

Having much more success,top of the league by 3 points with a game in hand and I think 7 games to go now,a couple against teams just behind me so it will be close but all in all a great first season regardless of what happens.

A lot of strange things still go on in some matches but hopefully they will be fixed,it took me a few saves to get going which was not the case in the past but then again this is a new ME,SI are not going to change the ME back so it had to be "ME" that changed

[Ainu]

My biggest issue is that literally nothing that I do seems to have the expected result. If things made sense I'd try to figure out where I'm going wrong, but at the moment that seems an exercise in futility. I get a half-feeling the ME is just doing some random stuff. Whether I'm right or wrong, the end result is that my interest in this game is at the lowest point it's ever been.

For example, when I had a look at my players' average positions, it didn't make any sense. My full back on support duty was only marginally higher up the pitch than my CBs. Meanwhile, my other full back on an attacking wing back role was just slightly higher. My inside forward on one wing was wider and deeper than my other winger in a winger role. My defensive minded ball winner was almost as high as my CM on support duty, while the advanced playmaker in an AMC position was about level with the CM. I had a good look at it, inspected all my other settings and the only conclusion was that it didn't make sense in a million miles. It's very hard to give a damn when you're presented with something that seems so random.

[Wlv]

My biggest issue is that literally nothing that I do seems to have the expected result. If things made sense I'd try to figure out where I'm going wrong, but at the moment that seems an exercise in futility. I get a half-feeling the ME is just doing some random stuff. Whether I'm right or wrong, the end result is that my interest in this game is at the lowest point it's ever been.

For example, when I had a look at my players' average positions, it didn't make any sense. My full back on support duty was only marginally higher up the pitch than my CBs. Meanwhile, my other full back on an attacking wing back role was just slightly higher. My inside forward on one wing was wider and deeper than my other winger in a winger role. My defensive minded ball winner was almost as high as my CM on support duty, while the advanced playmaker in an AMC position was about level with the CM. I had a good look at it, inspected all my other settings and the only conclusion was that it didn't make sense in a million miles. It's very hard to give a damn when you're presented with something that seems so random.

What is your full formation?

Purely speculation here but if you're using amr/aml as wide players OR no wide players other than your fb's, the position of your fbs will be pushed back due to the oppositions wide players. Likewise, if the opposition is pushing your fbs back, then the amc will be closer to your cm. I've found that a dmc set to anchor tends to stay back more.

[bigman]

hey, i guess it's 'our tactics' but some of us don't have 6 hours a day to spend on the game

this feels like fm 12 second patch which made the game unplayable to me

at this point in time i am regretting my £30 purchase as i am finding no enjoyment in the game at all, especially with this new terrible match engine and defenders who are instructed to close down butinstead slide away from the ball constantly

[Ainu]

What is your full formation?

Purely speculation here but if you're using amr/aml as wide players OR no wide players other than your fb's, the position of your fbs will be pushed back due to the oppositions wide players. Likewise, if the opposition is pushing your fbs back, then the amc will be closer to your cm. I've found that a dmc set to anchor tends to stay back more.

I could accept that explanation if it was a terrible game from my team. However, it was a game I won 5-1, enjoying 59% possession, creating 21 chances vs 8 and having 8 corners vs 0. With so much of the ball, my team's shape should shine through.

[Wlv]

Pretty odd then!

[davidallenxyz]

It is very difficult. Good sides in real life playing "normal" tactics don't do well.

I'm slowly starting to get somewhere with a suite of tactics that work and the kind of players the game is favouring - unfortunately, the tactics are not realistic (very defensive) and neither are the players (very physical). Even less realistic than previous versions of the game.

[BiggusD]

It is very difficult. Good sides in real life playing "normal" tactics don't do well.

I'm slowly starting to get somewhere with a suite of tactics that work and the kind of players the game is favouring - unfortunately, the tactics are not realistic (very defensive) and neither are the players (very physical). Even less realistic than previous versions of the game.

I guess SI tries really hard to not award ultra-attacking tactics then. I too, started out with a "balanced" tactic, but those are neither good in defense nor offense. It is better having one tactic where you toss everything forward and one where you keep everything back.

[davidallenxyz]

The ME doesn't seem to convert tactical domination in the match engine (whether entirely down to the human tactics or the team superiority) into goals. Rather it favours the counter attack and defensive sloppiness when defending set pieces, crosses, etc. (elements of the counter attacking game). This of course leads to weaker teams finding a disproportionate amount of success against strong teams in human control and in my opinion has removed the ease by which a player with less tactical understanding can enjoy the game

I totally agree with your assessment of how the AI is generating goals against human players, although I disagree with the idea that players with less tactical understanding will find it hard to enjoy the game. I think human players of most standards find it hard to enjoy a game that does not reward domination of matches - CM/FM has always had its faults, but it has always rewarded dominance in the past. And dominance is rewarded IRL. Sadly, what I am seeing so far is a disproportionate amount of "unlucky" defeats from a dominant position, and almost no "lucky" wins when under the cosh. I don't mind bad "luck" - I do mind one-sided "luck".

[DP]

Hilariously all those saying they are doing well are actually doing it with smaller sides thus reinforcing the argument that smaller sides seem to beat the better sides too often!

Is anyone having continued success with a top side? What's your secret?

As a complete FM veteran I'm struggling to get past 8th place with Ajax and finished my first season in 8th place. I should be able to sweep aside most Dutch opposition just relying on my superior players. But no...

[tajj 7]

Hilariously all those saying they are doing well are actually doing it with smaller sides thus reinforcing the argument that smaller sides seem to beat the better sides too often!

Is anyone having continued success with a top side? What's your secret?

As a complete FM veteran I'm struggling to get past 8th place with Ajax and finished my first season in 8th place. I should be able to sweep aside most Dutch opposition just relying on my superior players. But no...

Thing is a small side that have success become big sides. I'm in my 4th season with Saints and I have players worth £25 million and I would reckon I have about 5 or 6 first teamers with over 160 CA and I have no trouble beating the sides I am supposed to beat.

My standard teamtalk is usually along the lines of 'I expect a win'. My difficult games are against the likes of Chelsea. Arsenal, Tottenham, Man Utd etc. In my league win last year my two losses were heavy away losses to Liverpool and Arsenal, and I managed to scrape draws against Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City. I don't think I won away to a top 6 club.

The issue has clearly got to be tactics.

[DP]

Thing is a small side that have success become big sides. I'm in my 4th season with Saints and I have players worth £25 million and I would reckon I have about 5 or 6 first teamers with over 160 CA and I have no trouble beating the sides I am supposed to beat.

My standard teamtalk is usually along the lines of 'I expect a win'. My difficult games are against the likes of Chelsea. Arsenal, Tottenham, Man Utd etc. In my league win last year my two losses were heavy away losses to Liverpool and Arsenal, and I managed to scrape draws against Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City. I don't think I won away to a top 6 club.

The issue has clearly got to be tactics.

It's definitely not tactics and the fact SI are working on items in the next build - particularly around the effectiveness of smaller teams - says as much.

If myself and others were not dominating matches I would be more open to your suggestion but big sides should be doing better with their standard tactics - I'm talking about balanced/fluid play, control/standard, high defensive line against smaller sides. There's nothing complicated here and it's mirroring the way these sides operate IRL.

Your Southampton example is still not valid as from a reputation perspective you're hardly a top club.

[andyinuk]

i think its very overrated to try to build your own tactic from scratch

try using one of the default tactics already in the game, and play it for 5-10 games... so far honestly i tried the 3-4-3, 4-2-3-1 Asymetric, and they get the job done honestly..

after achieving some respecteable results with the default formation you can start tweaking small things

i think its a huge beginner mistake to launch the tactic wizard, select every word you know how to describe the barcelona style best and try to play the game

in other words the tactic wizard is one huge beginner trap, should be removed or there should be a message in fat red letters all over the screen that you shouldnt use it unless you are a very advanced player

Agreed totally. Keep it simple should be the number rule of designing tactics, especially with a new team

[S2008]

My Celtic side in FM 2013 struggle to create ANY chances at all. Alright I am no tactical genius but by putting such a major emphasis on tactics I feel it takes the fun out of the game for me and only further serves to isolate those of us who don't play the game to fiddle about with tactical tweaks etc.

It doesnt seem to matter what tactical tweaks I make my players always shoot from range and they barely ever create chances of any description. At least in FM12 you could create chances, even when not playing well or having the exact tactical setup.

Im leaving this version well alone until something is done about the ME because its sucked all the fun out of my game.

[dsouthy]

whats the post in having a game that is easy...

[asdpoo]

Use instant result. I tested with two matches and first I lost both, conceding early goals and then my team is extremely inept in the final third. My strikers just sit like glued to their marker, which results in a lot of possession and long shots, but no goals. Then instant result won them easily. Then I tried again myself and failed.

It's not the optimal experience, but if it is important to win and you suck - use it

[DP]

Use instant result. I tested with two matches and first I lost both, conceding early goals and then my team is extremely inept in the final third. My strikers just sit like glued to their marker, which results in a lot of possession and long shots, but no goals. Then instant result won them easily. Then I tried again myself and failed.

It's not the optimal experience, but if it is important to win and you suck - use it

This has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. The result is generated in exactly the same way - with the match engine just showing you the highlights.

Is just coincidence in your case.

[davidallenxyz]

This has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. The result is generated in exactly the same way - with the match engine just showing you the highlights.

Is just coincidence in your case.

I don't believe this is entirely true. I believe the normal match results are based on a straight combination of the match odds and the tactic/players used. The match engine is a lot more forensic, and will search for and expose any weaknesses in your team and tactics to generate that result. It wouldn't surprise me if the new match engine (which seems to run distinctly from the management side of the game now, you have to generate the match every time you want to look at the stats) has the balance between non-human and human results wrong.

[DP]

I don't believe this is entirely true. I believe the normal match results are based on a straight combination of the match odds and the tactic/players used. The match engine is a lot more forensic, and will search for and expose any weaknesses in your team and tactics to generate that result. It wouldn't surprise me if the new match engine (which seems to run distinctly from the management side of the game now, you have to generate the match every time you want to look at the stats) has the balance between non-human and human results wrong.

Wrong on both counts. The ME also doesn't distinguish between human and non human.

[MacZidane]

I'm using Bath in Blue Square South. Currently top of the League after 11 matches. 8 wins. 2 draws. 1 loss. I think we were predicted to finish 3rd ..

I'm Truro in that league (3rd bottom with 5 games to go), and Bath are miles clear at the top, so you're not doing that well

I did manage to beat Bath 1-0 away in a recent game, scoring the winner in the 86th minute after employing rigid, defensive tactics. My wife nearly had a heart attack when I shouted 'Yasssss' when it went in lol.

Anyway, this version of FM is, in my opinion, the best one for many years. You really have to work at it this year, which is a good thing. Too many previous versions have been too easy to 'break', but on this one, you really do need to take it one game at a time.

Lovely stuff.

[asdpoo]

This has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. The result is generated in exactly the same way - with the match engine just showing you the highlights.

Is just coincidence in your case.

You are reading something that isn't there. I'm saying the AI does a better job at conducting the match than me.

[tajj 7]

Your Southampton example is still not valid as from a reputation perspective you're hardly a top club.

Well I'm not Barcelona, yet, but I'm ranked 12th in reputation in Europe, so I'm above about 15 other premier league clubs, I have several players worth over £20 million, I'm favourites to win virtually all my premiership games bar maybe Arsenal, Chelsea away. I'm league Champions for two years and got to the Champions league semis last year. My stadium is nearly 50K seats as well.

I probably have a much higher reputation than your Ajax team

"It's definitely not tactics and the fact SI are working on items in the next build - particularly around the effectiveness of smaller teams - says as much." Where have they said this exactly?

[BiggusD]

What I am wondering is how the AI manages to instantly cope with me swapping from the most overloading tactic I could possibly make to a very defensive tactic. I am in the lead, 20 minutes to go and they start to push forward, creating some chances. Ok, now my tactic is too risky, I say to myself, and swap to my 4-1-4-1 tactic instead, which lays deep and have very low closing down and men behind the ball. Yet, the first highlight after the change has taken place (extended) they have stopped pumping the ball forward and instead pass the ball between them inside their own third, and my team pushes up just as high as my starting tactic (which has Defensive Line maxed out), and then they pump the ball behind my defenders instead.

I want to know how you set up a tactic to be aggressive when it is smart being aggressive and counter-attacking when it is smart to be counter-attacking, because I see that it is possible because the AI does it all the time. I also want to know how it is possible to instantly know the best move against any tactic.

[saware]

I've done ok with the teams I've used, however I seem to have performed better with smaller/lower league teams where my tactics haven't been quite as attacking.

Having problems with consistency. The defending is awful... lots of players standing off, through-balls being played inside full-backs for opposition wingers to collect, strikers shooting across goal almost always results in a goal (regardless of where the shot is aimed), players dribbling past defenders on the byline & walking the ball into the net & I can never tell if my 'keeper is going to have a 'worldy' or a nightmare.

I'd maybe understand if I have been playing as a poor side, but most recently I've been Spurs, who are half-decent and form etc doesn't seem to play a part. As people have said, I can beat a team heavily, then go to Stoke or Reading and get hammered.

[lam]

The devil is in the detail...... I believe there have been some major changes to how things work in game. A massive change has been in the MC position about how they defend etc.... but this is just one of many changes.

As per usual with FM, the information is usually there, you just gotta grab it!

AM feedback during a game has seen a serious buff.... to me that means one thing.... you have to start using Opposition Instructions.....

However, that said, there are still issues with the ME and this has generally been accepted in the ME bug section.

I started a post that got locked because I refused to spend my time uploading games etc etc. however I will post again and will supply the games this time around, but this is an extract of it.

So far I am five competitive games into the season. I have had some really good results against strong teams, and I sit in a nice position in the league, so this isn't a case of me complaining that I can't work the game.

I want to highlight my goals conceded. Of the ten goals conceded, I don't beleive any of them (perhaps one) is a straight forward goal. Here are the details (brief).

Spurs vs Stoke. Result 4-2 win.

Goals conceded

1 - Own goal deflection. From a throw in, my player walked past the ball, made no attempt to kick it and it bounced off his bottom and in. (There were 4 other players around him including the keeper).

2 - Penalty

Liverpool vs Spurs. Result 3-2 win

Goals conceded

1 - 40 yard pass to Downing who turned (was not facing the pass when it was made) and volleyed into the net he was positioned wide(ish) between the corners of the 6yrd and 18yrd box.

2 - Corner. sailed over the heads of 4 players, none of which jumped, past the Keeper who did not move, onto an unmarked Yesil for a tap in.

Spurs vs West Brom. Result 2-3 loss

Now, this little note could very well be down to my ineptitude of being a manager. In the first half and for the first 15 minutes into the second half, I dominated play. Close to 60% possession. Passing upwards of 80% AND I was playing direct, so this isn't a sit back and hold the ball tactic. West Brom had barely had three of four shots

Goals conceded.

1. Penalty

2. 'Bizarre Fashion' (looks like off the shoulder) from a 50 yrd freekick into the 6rd box.

3. Penalty (90+6mins, when only 3 minutes were supposed to be played).

Spurs vs Chelsea. Result 2-1 win

Goals conceded

1. Failed punt clearance by DC. Ball smashed home.

Ruben vs Spurs. Result 3-2 win

Goals conceded.

1. Freekick to near post. Defenders and keeper make no effort to intercept the ball. Scorer walks ball into goal.

2. Corner. Three of my players fall over, another one fails to clear. Goal.

So, from the 10 goals conceded in just five games the summary is:

3 - Penalties

1 - Own goal

1 - Bizarre Fashion

1 - Long range pass/outstanding volley

4 - Defending corner/free kick error

Only one goal from open play and that, and fair credit to them, was a spectacular finish (volley) off his weaker foot.

I completely understand that there will always be errors, especially in new tactics/formations that players are not familiar with, however, my concern is the frequency. I have conceded on average 2 goals per game. All of which were 'interesting'.

Not one goal scored against me has been a straight up through ball or a cross from wide onto a header or a long shot from distance.

I will upload the games soon.

For those that reside in the tactics forum, you know that I love this game.... so it pains me to say these things, but it disturbs me that SI have released this game way way to early.......... much like all the other games out there.

I think they've might have moved a fair distance from the old motto.... a game built by fans for fans......... there is to much 'corporate' in this early release.

One last thing..... can anyone tell me if there is anymore information in these saved matches/games/highlights etc that we don't see? ie can SI extrapolate things from the save? I only ask as it seems very odd to me that we are asked to prove everything? I beleive in nearly every game I have played I see ALL the things that worry me...... if I see it, how come they dont?

Regards

LAM

ps.... I think once my formation/tacic is fluid across the board..... match preperation is going to be defending set pieces..... ALL SEASON LONG

[jlawlor91]

Totally agree with this; played FM/CM for about 10 years and can't get into a game without doing poor. The start of my saves are as followed...

Norwich:

West Brom 2-0 WIN

Everton 3-0 LOSS

Arsenal 2-0 LOSS

Ended up getting sacked...

Arsenal:

Spurs 3-0 LOSS

Norwich 0-0 DRAW

Stoke 1-0 LOSS

Ended up leaving due to poor results...

West Brom:

Reading 1-0 LOSS

Stoke 0-0 DRAW

Man United 3-2 LOSS

Fulham 1-1 DRAW

Ended up getting sacked

Swansea:

Man United -3-0 LOSS

Fulham - 3-0 WIN

Newcastle - 1-0 LOSS

West Brom #2:

Wigan 1-1 DRAW

Norwich 2-1 LOSS

Swindon 2-1 LOSS

Sigh

[DP]

Well I'm not Barcelona, yet, but I'm ranked 12th in reputation in Europe, so I'm above about 15 other premier league clubs, I have several players worth over £20 million, I'm favourites to win virtually all my premiership games bar maybe Arsenal, Chelsea away. I'm league Champions for two years and got to the Champions league semis last year. My stadium is nearly 50K seats as well.

I probably have a much higher reputation than your Ajax team

"It's definitely not tactics and the fact SI are working on items in the next build - particularly around the effectiveness of smaller teams - says as much." Where have they said this exactly?

Yes but an Ajax team in the Dutch league is proportionately a lot higher reputation wise than almost every other side. This is very different from your situation.

Out of interest what does your team tactics look like? Rigid? Control? What default tactics do you use in games you're expected to win?

Trust me, they are aware that there is possibly a problem with dominance not being converted to wins a little too often and some of the changes made in the next ME version could help slightly.

[tajj 7]

Yes but an Ajax team in the Dutch league is proportionately a lot higher reputation wise than almost every other side. This is very different from your situation.

Out of interest what does your team tactics look like? Rigid? Control? What default tactics do you use in games you're expected to win?

Trust me, they are aware that there is possibly a problem with dominance not being converted to wins a little too often and some of the changes made in the next ME version could help slightly.

4-4-1-1, Attacking and Fluid with short passing, slightly above normal defensive line, if the other team is sitting back I put my fullbacks onto attacking.

I've just changed to a 4-6-0 formation and have won 5 on the bounce with it creating 4+ clear cut chances a game with about 60% possession, my only issue is that as I have no strikers I'm not converting many of these chances.

[Koki]

Don't we have these kind of threads each year after the release? To be honest, I'm one of these guys who seems to struggle at the start of every FM iteration and by now I have quite a tradition of starting multiple savegames and testing multiple tactics before starting my "real" save because of this. I don't know why it becomes easier with the time. Whether I get a better grip of tactics, the ME gets improved or simply my players get better with the time.

I'd like to believe that the ME has become so much better "underneath" but when I use my FM12 tactic in FM13 I see my players ignoring the tactical instructions that worked fine in FM12 (simple things like "short passing" and "defender collect" for the goalkeeper). I don't demand that I should be successful with an old tactic just because I took a team from division 7 to 1 in FM12 with it but I simply can't say that the ME has improved (from a user's point of view) if the players follow my instructions worse than before.

[GoTeamGo]

Remember that the new ME is very different to the old so the tactical theories that applied in FM12 might not be relevant anymore. I had been struggling hard across multiple saves using my old FM12 tactics until I read this post by wwfan in the feedback thread:

"Given the amount of forum angst, it is probably worth reposting this:

Lots of things being posted relating to not being able to defend or attack are almost certainly down to users' tactics, not the ME. Such tactical issues illuminate the problems of coding the ME. There is a footballing logic that it and AI tactics access, which includes having a certain number of players moving between the lines (pushing up or dropping deep). If a user's tactic is very static and keeps players glued to their line, then they arguably should be struggling to get results, just as a real life team playing totally static football would. Historically, users employing static tactics have been able to "beat" the ME rather than the AI by keeping their defence back and channeling their passes through to a single, usually quick, player. The lack of collision detection in the ME resulted in this player being guaranteed a certain number of good chances every match. The only thing that mattered was how well he played.

In reality, any team would be able to mark that player out of the game. The one dimensionality of the tactic then gets exposed, as it can't create another type of chance. A user with this type of tactic should be seeing bad football and getting frustrated. How do you know that is you? Generally, if you always kept both FBs on Defend duties, had at least one DLP, possibly two, and forwards only on Attack duties, then there is the strong possibility you were relying on the 'no collision' exploit to overpower the ME. If you had multiple DLPs and an FC in the FCC position, it was almost certainly you.

Ultimately, if this type of tactic is struggling, then it is evidence that the ME has improved structurally. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have some bugs, such as defensive positioning on some free kicks, shooting too often from extreme angles, pressing not being aggressive enough etc. However, these are all secondary to the overall structure working far, far better. Structural improvement was the key focus of the two year ME redevelop, which required the introduction of player collision and ball physics. If you can't see quite how much this has improved the overall play of the ME, then you are missing the wood for the trees. Everything outside of this structural improvement is polishing. The ME might need burnishing in certain areas, but the underlying framework has improved significantly."

After reading this I re-examined my tactics and saw that, just as predicted, I was asking my team to play in a very static, controlled manner with little roaming. In FM12 this was fine because top-class players were able to individually unlock defences to an absurd degree, but in the new version this rightly fails as teams will just stifle your attack and punish you on the break. Roaming players who fluidly swap positions give defenders a real nightmare (just like real life) and are the key to unlocking defences at the top level.

I've only played with top flight teams on FM13 so some of these ideas may not translate to lower league teams, but the point is the new ME is much more sophisticated and tactically logical that previous versions, and any failure to get your team playing well/how you want is likely down to a failure to adapt.

This all sounds great, how it was the previous match engines that were crap and unrealistic, and that's why the same tactics won't work on FM13's.... however, the exact same was said about FM12, FM11, FM10, etc, and only now are we hearing the truth, that there was no collision detection, that you could basically cheat the ME to victory in previous iterations. And next year, in FM14 or FM15, we're going to hear that the reason your great FM13 tactics no longer work is because FM13's match engine's tactics were unrealistic and relied too much on this or that, where FM14/FM15's match engine has fixed the issue.

Now don't get me wrong, as a FM veteran, I believe the match engines in these games, most recent in my mind being FM10's on patch 3, are some of the most amazing achievements in any video game, period. It is amazing to the degree that they have simulated the overall game of football, where your input actually changes how the game goes and it at least tricks you into believing it's reality based, even if it's not. Even if, on that note, the ME falls short on the details and the depth in terms of replicating real life football, for the purposes of playing the game it almost doesn't matter because the overall achievement is so incredible, and the real point of it is that it's giving you a puzzle to solve with so many ways of solving it (probably too many, too many variables in the latest match engines that you can never isolate mentality vs d-line vs tempo vs time wasting vs creative freedom vs this vs that vs opponent instructions, etc, but still, despite all the shortcomings, it's such an alluring overall thing and a great achievement just due to the fact that it looks like football from far away, even if you can see the illusion start to show up close).

Anyway, the match engines in these games are amazing achievements, but they do have their quirks and their shortcomings, and typically they do not replicate real football tactically, and so on that side of things it is a bit annoying to hear every year how the match engine now is realistic tactically, unlike the year before, and that's why your old tactics no longer work. It's the same narrative every year, and every year it's false. The reason tactics don't carry over from year to year is because each year's new match engine is unbalanced in its own distinct and different way, with its own unrealistic quirks, and your tactic that worked within the balance and quirks of one year's match engine will not work within the different balance and quirks of the new match engine. And that is why it's a bit annoying when people try to justify the quirks of a match engine using real world football examples, as if the two are related.

Now, I haven't played FM13's match engine yet, but just reading the notes in this thread, about how the reason peoples' tactics are failing is because in real life you need layers in your football, otherwise you fail, and therefore within FM13 you need to let players free roam and tell them to swap positions... please. This is called football, making runs. The players are supposed to make runs by themselves. You select the formation, give them their base tactic, give them creative freedom, and they play football within that. In real life you don't need to tell your LCM to swap with your RCM constantly, putting them in their wrong sides, or having your strikers switch constantly. You very rarely see that in real football. Players make runs and they fill into space instinctually, but that is completely different from having to set "swap position." Take your classic two striker set up, say you have Andy Carroll as one striker, and a speedster as the other. I've been watching, Andry Carroll never goes and swaps roles with the speedster. Carroll is always deeper, looking for the long pass so he can win the header and flick it on, and the speedster is always looking to get in on goal.

Likewise, if you have a right back like Darijo Srna, you put his mentality to normal or attacking, give him forward runs medium or often, and he should know to fill into space in conjunction with the winger or striker ahead of him when he gets up the pitch, he should know to run overlaps, etc, because that's basic football. You shouldn't have to put him to swap positions with the right winger, in fact that would create a mess because half the time you would then have your right winger playing right back. Swap position doesn't just happen when you're attacking at the perfect time, it means they actually change positions. So again you shouldn't have to put that, that's not what it's even for, and fullbacks should be overlapping by themselves down the flank if you have them set to attacking and let them run forward... midfielders should be coming deep by themselves if they see that their defenders have no outlet to pass to. "Come towards the ball," anyone who has played football has heard that, it's basic. Or "open up into space." "Create a passing lane for your teammate to reach you." These are basic things, you shouldn't have to click 20 different boxes and monkey around with a billion sliders to achieve this. What it sounds like to me in the new FM13 engine is that while the collision system sounds great, and while the tactical formations may be much more realistic as a result, the player AI sounds like it's terrible, and therefore it doesn't come together like it should, and leads to unrealistic football.

Again, the idea that, if you're managing Barcelona, putting them into their normal 4-1-2-2-1 setup (with the proper mentalities and tempo etc) is not enough, and that it's completely realistic for Messi, Xavi and company to be 12th in the table if you don't set a bunch of players to free roam and swap positions and come deep to get ball, etc, is absurd. These are great players, they know how to play the game, and if the player AI in the match engine was able to realistically simulate these players in the match engine, there would be no need to click all those boxes. That's what mentality, defensive line depth, creative freedom, etc etc are for. You already have tons of control for each player and tons of input with all the regular sliders, and your input through those, as in putting the players into the right base shape and giving them the proper instructions as to whether to take a lot of long shots or run a lot with the ball, that input combined with their ability and understanding of how to play the game that they've gleaned from playing the game all their lives, would be more than enough for teams like Barcelona, Man Utd, Liverpool, or even Tottenham to succeed.

Probably the simplest way to say it is this. For the person managing Tottenham to be in last place in the league, and the reason is because he didn't put his players to switch position or free roam, does that sound realistic? As in, thank god Tottenham's players have free roam in real life and they're allowed to swap positions, otherwise we all know they would be in last place!

Nope, don't buy that one bit. Sounds like the match engine still needs work, hope it gets fixed in the next patch. But Im definitely excited about the collision detection.

[BiggusD]

This all sounds great, how it was the previous match engines that were crap and unrealistic, and that's why the same tactics won't work on FM13's.... however, the exact same was said about FM12, FM11, FM10, etc, and only now are we hearing the truth, that there was no collision detection, that you could basically cheat the ME to victory in previous iterations. And next year, in FM14 or FM15, we're going to hear that the reason your great FM13 tactics no longer work is because FM13's match engine's tactics were unrealistic and relied too much on this or that, where FM14/FM15's match engine has fixed the issue.

Now don't get me wrong, as a FM veteran, I believe the match engines in these games, most recent in my mind being FM10's on patch 3, are some of the most amazing achievements in any video game, period. It is amazing to the degree that they have simulated the overall game of football, where your input actually changes how the game goes and it at least tricks you into believing it's reality based, even if it's not. Even if, on that note, the ME falls short on the details and the depth in terms of replicating real life football, for the purposes of playing the game it almost doesn't matter because the overall achievement is so incredible, and the real point of it is that it's giving you a puzzle to solve with so many ways of solving it (probably too many, too many variables in the latest match engines that you can never isolate mentality vs d-line vs tempo vs time wasting vs creative freedom vs this vs that vs opponent instructions, etc, but still, despite all the shortcomings, it's such an alluring overall thing and a great achievement just due to the fact that it looks like football from far away, even if you can see the illusion start to show up close).

Anyway, the match engines in these games are amazing achievements, but they do have their quirks and their shortcomings, and typically they do not replicate real football tactically, and so on that side of things it is a bit annoying to hear every year how the match engine now is realistic tactically, unlike the year before, and that's why your old tactics no longer work. It's the same narrative every year, and every year it's false. The reason tactics don't carry over from year to year is because each year's new match engine is unbalanced in its own distinct and different way, with its own unrealistic quirks, and your tactic that worked within the balance and quirks of one year's match engine will not work within the different balance and quirks of the new match engine. And that is why it's a bit annoying when people try to justify the quirks of a match engine using real world football examples, as if the two are related.

Now, I haven't played FM13's match engine yet, but just reading the notes in this thread, about how the reason peoples' tactics are failing is because in real life you need layers in your football, otherwise you fail, and therefore within FM13 you need to let players free roam and tell them to swap positions... please. This is called football, making runs. The players are supposed to make runs by themselves. You select the formation, give them their base tactic, give them creative freedom, and they play football within that. In real life you don't need to tell your LCM to swap with your RCM constantly, putting them in their wrong sides, or having your strikers switch constantly. You very rarely see that in real football. Players make runs and they fill into space instinctually, but that is completely different from having to set "swap position." Take your classic two striker set up, say you have Andy Carroll as one striker, and a speedster as the other. I've been watching, Andry Carroll never goes and swaps roles with the speedster. Carroll is always deeper, looking for the long pass so he can win the header and flick it on, and the speedster is always looking to get in on goal.

Likewise, if you have a right back like Darijo Srna, you put his mentality to normal or attacking, give him forward runs medium or often, and he should know to fill into space in conjunction with the winger or striker ahead of him when he gets up the pitch, he should know to run overlaps, etc, because that's basic football. You shouldn't have to put him to swap positions with the right winger, in fact that would create a mess because half the time you would then have your right winger playing right back. Swap position doesn't just happen when you're attacking at the perfect time, it means they actually change positions. So again you shouldn't have to put that, that's not what it's even for, and fullbacks should be overlapping by themselves down the flank if you have them set to attacking and let them run forward... midfielders should be coming deep by themselves if they see that their defenders have no outlet to pass to. "Come towards the ball," anyone who has played football has heard that, it's basic. Or "open up into space." "Create a passing lane for your teammate to reach you." These are basic things, you shouldn't have to click 20 different boxes and monkey around with a billion sliders to achieve this. What it sounds like to me in the new FM13 engine is that while the collision system sounds great, and while the tactical formations may be much more realistic as a result, the player AI sounds like it's terrible, and therefore it doesn't come together like it should, and leads to unrealistic football.

Again, the idea that, if you're managing Barcelona, putting them into their normal 4-1-2-2-1 setup (with the proper mentalities and tempo etc) is not enough, and that it's completely realistic for Messi, Xavi and company to be 12th in the table if you don't set a bunch of players to free roam and swap positions and come deep to get ball, etc, is absurd. These are great players, they know how to play the game, and if the player AI in the match engine was able to realistically simulate these players in the match engine, there would be no need to click all those boxes. That's what mentality, defensive line depth, creative freedom, etc etc are for. You already have tons of control for each player and tons of input with all the regular sliders, and your input through those, as in putting the players into the right base shape and giving them the proper instructions as to whether to take a lot of long shots or run a lot with the ball, that input combined with their ability and understanding of how to play the game that they've gleaned from playing the game all their lives, would be more than enough for teams like Barcelona, Man Utd, Liverpool, or even Tottenham to succeed.

Probably the simplest way to say it is this. For the person managing Tottenham to be in last place in the league, and the reason is because he didn't put his players to switch position or free roam, does that sound realistic? As in, thank god Tottenham's players have free roam in real life and they're allowed to swap positions, otherwise we all know they would be in last place!

Nope, don't buy that one bit. Sounds like the match engine still needs work, hope it gets fixed in the next patch. But Im definitely excited about the collision detection.

For the record, the collision detection make players bounce off each other as if they were rubber balls Great post btw!

[tefal]

I'm not sure if this version is anymore difficult than any in the past. The thing that i think is making it more difficult is the morale of the players seems impossible to keep up. Played one game till november as arsenal. Started really well but despite being 1st or 2nd by november the whole squad had really low morale and went on a run of 4 or 5 straight defeats that pushed them down the league. Whatever i say in my team talks is the wrong thing. Been playing this game since the original 20 odd years ago and never had a problem with keeping up morale or team talks.

[BiggusD]

I'm not sure if this version is anymore difficult than any in the past. The thing that i think is making it more difficult is the morale of the players seems impossible to keep up. Played one game till november as arsenal. Started really well but despite being 1st or 2nd by november the whole squad had really low morale and went on a run of 4 or 5 straight defeats that pushed them down the league. Whatever i say in my team talks is the wrong thing. Been playing this game since the original 20 odd years ago and never had a problem with keeping up morale or team talks.

This is likely a lack of manager reputation. Even with starting reputation International Footballer, that might not be quite enough the first few seasons at a club like Arsenal.

[Meak]

what i'm finding annoying this year (apart from the transfers which i've ranted about lol) is my team has only once scored another goal after being down 1-0 or the other team ties the game up 1-1... we seem to go into death offensive mode and don't want to score... also it seems every time i hit the cross bar more than once, it means my team can't win the game because they hit the bar 4-5 times a game if they hit it twice... very frustrating