David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Come on, release a game without protection? Not even music CD's are released without some sort of protection. Sadly in the world we live it is needed, it may not stop piracy, but it does put less knowledgeable people off, removing that would be suicide.

Witcher 2. No DRM. Did very well in the sales charts.

* It was initially released with a true, one time internet activation (not Steam reliant) which they promptly removed because it caused issues with the game.

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Just to summarise, these are the users that will be affected by this decision;

1. People who have bandwidth quotas - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. Mac users - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power when idling. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

3. People with no internet access - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

4. People with blocked access - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

5. Potentially everyone* - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

6. Pirates - but not really.

Did I miss anyone?

This.

#2 isn't helped by the fact that FM isn't the best application on the Mac anyway - and pretty much never has been - with Steam taking up those resources, it's taking it away from FM, and a very slight possible performance increase.

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7. People who just don't want 3rd party applications on their computer to run a game that has never been dependant on it before?

8. People who don't like change

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7. People who just don't want 3rd party applications on their computer to run a game that has never been dependant on it before?

Ah yes. But remember - there's only "about 50" of us, and although SI are "sad" to see us go, we won't hurt their sales, and therefore don't matter.

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Would someone from SI please tell me precisely what customer data SI and/or Sega will share with Steam?

Would someone from SI please tell me, as Steam has to be running to play FM12 is it collecting any data in offline mode?

When it becomes necessary to switch Steam to online mode, to download patches for example, what data will be collected by Steam themselves?

Cheers

xxx

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Witcher 2. No DRM. Did very well in the sales charts.

* It was initially released with a true, one time internet activation (not Steam reliant) which they promptly removed because it caused issues with the game.

not quite, only certain versions had no DRM

"On April 14, 2011, CD Projekt announced during their CDP Days 2011 Spring Conference that retail copies of the game would feature SecuRom DRM. However, the protection would still allow for infinite installations on an infinite number of PCs, with the ability to play on up to five PCs at any one time. It was also confirmed that the game would feature no censorship between regions.[11] The Witcher 2 was also distributed through several digital distribution services such as Steam and CD Projekt's own service "Good Old Games". The version sold on GOG.com was the only version that did not have any DRM at release."

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in reality they are both as illegal as each other im afriad.

Yeah I know that...but for my defence, I use Steam offline option when my girlfriend plays Anno, which I've also purchased through Steam... I'm the only owner and user of FM in my household (couldn't get the gf interested).

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Feel free to point out where.

:D:D:D If SI decided to require you to enter provide real-life identities, credit card information and bank account details, would you be using the same argument ("Loyal customers buy the game no matter what!")?

We were loyal customers. SI are screwing us over. We aren't loyal any more as a result.

Loyal means sticking by them through the good and bad, if you walk away your not loyal, even if you think you are, and SI are not screwing anyone with this, calm down and stop sensationalizing it.

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Would someone from SI please tell me precisely what customer data SI and/or Sega will share with Steam?

Would someone from SI please tell me, as Steam has to be running to play FM12 is it collecting any data in offline mode?

When it becomes necessary to switch Steam to online mode, to download patches for example, what data will be collected by Steam themselves?

Cheers

xxx

I dont know which one it falls under but computer specswill be one same when registered online with FM09

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1. People who have bandwidth quotas - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

Patches are available to download - http://www.sega.com/fm11/patches

You don't need Steam.

2. Mac users - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power when idling. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

Hopefully Steam can be improved for the Mac. Hopefully it doesn't affect too many people. I don't have a Mac, but my brother does and he reckons Steam isn't as bad as people make it out to be on here.

3. People with no internet access - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

You can download the patches as mentioned already.

Yes you need to activate it online through Steam. So you will need to get internet access from somewhere. Perhaps you know someone with Mobile Broadband or get a trial from a local shop or something?

It's unfortunate that you need internet access to activate, seems to be the biggest flaw in this saga. But it is there to help combat piracy. Which is an extreme step to take, but as said in the opening post, it wasn't a decision taken lightly.

4. People with blocked access - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

I suggest the "unblock" them. I have no idea why their connection points would be blocked. But I'm sure they can contact Steam support about how to fix this.

5. Potentially everyone* - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

That's terrible on Steam's part. I'm shocked by 10+ incidents. Seems to be more of a problem that I originally thought.

SI have siad they will try to help us out with contacting Steam. So if you're not getting much feedback from Steam perhaps contact a member of the SI team on the forums?

6. Pirates - but not really.

Did I miss anyone?

Good post

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Every game in the current PC Chart Top 10 has a form of DRM that requires either a 3rd party piece of software, registration or both. One has mandatory Steam validation too.

It's not like SI are bucking the trend by the introduction of this. It IS the norm.

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Ah yes. But remember - there's only "about 50" of us, and although SI are "sad" to see us go, we won't hurt their sales, and therefore don't matter.

Well unfortunately, even if every member of this forum boycotted the game, which is around 150k people, really that's nothing compared to the amount of sales FM11 got.

8. People who don't like change

Some people don't. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it was a case of a one-time activation where you could then not have Steam running in the background. I know it doesn't take up much resources on a PC, but it's still there. I will play FM12 regardless because I enjoy the series so much, but why should I be dictated to by a third party telling me how to use it? If I buy a CD, I can use it on my computer, in my CD player, in my car, in my Xbox/PS3. Why should a game be any different?

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Yeah I know that...but for my defence, I use Steam offline option when my girlfriend plays Anno, which I've also purchased through Steam... I'm the only owner and user of FM in my household (couldn't get the gf interested).

yeah im having a go at you, i also have done it, but we are both technically breaking the law sadly.

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Every game in the current PC Chart Top 10 has a form of DRM that requires either a 3rd party piece of software, registration or both. One has mandatory Steam validation too.

It's not like SI are bucking the trend by the introduction of this. It IS the norm.

Paid for DLC that has been held back from the final release of the game has also become the norm. Doesn't make it a good thing, doesn't mean it's good for the customer.

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If I buy a CD, I can use it on my computer, in my CD player, in my car, in my Xbox/PS3. Why should a game be any different?

Still buying CDs is probably a sign that you might need to move with the times! :D

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The thing is I would really like to keep supporting SI like I've always done. I truly do.

Miles' analogy with locks etc could have convinced me. I mean if SI as a company felt it was in their best interest to pay for a service to protect their game (like you pay for locks and alarm systems), well I could understand that and accept the consequences.

But SI does not pay for the "locks". The "locks" pay SI to be installed. Which makes things even more ennoying.

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Patches are available to download - http://www.sega.com/fm11/patches

You don't need Steam.

That's not what has been said so far. Maybe I misinterpreted it, but from what I understand, patches will only be available through Steam and not through SEGA's or SI's websites. The patches you linked to were for FM2011.

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Still buying CDs is probably a sign that you might need to move with the times! :D

Oh come on. The amount of utter garbage being spouted in this thread is silly.

There are plenty of good reasons to buy a CD instead of digital download, the chief of which being that music is about sound, and you get the best sound quality out of a CD, and not a compressed audio file.

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Still buying CDs is probably a sign that you might need to move with the times! :D

I'm the same with books though. I know they take up room but I like having the physical thing in my hands. Plus as Wakers just pointed out, the sound difference on a CD compared to a compressed audio file is huge. And Wakers- I think he was joking :lol:

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Patches are available to download - http://www.sega.com/fm11/patches

You don't need Steam.

Jeez will you please stop giving out false information Eugene when you clearly know little about the subject.

Those patches were for non-Steam users.

Steam users all received their patches via Steam.

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Oh come on. The amount of utter garbage being spouted in this thread is silly.

There are plenty of good reasons to buy a CD instead of digital download, the chief of which being that music is about sound, and you get the best sound quality out of a CD, and not a compressed audio file.

I think you may have missed the smily, he was making a joke.

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Oh come on. The amount of utter garbage being spouted in this thread is silly.

There are plenty of good reasons to buy a CD instead of digital download, the chief of which being that music is about sound, and you get the best sound quality out of a CD, and not a compressed audio file.

Yeh, in best forum tradition we're going off topic faster than the shuttle:D I understand you do good car analogies Wakers;)

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Wow. I guess you guys know it all.

Patches are available without Steam. If you install with Steam you will need to download the patches through Steam.

If you buy the CD you can download the patches without Steam. At least that's how I see it.

I'll be shocked if patches are only available through Steam.

I've said enough on this. You're all worried about absolutely nothing, imo.

I'm being accused of sending out misinformation? After reading the absolute tripe by people on here?

Good luck.

I'll enjoy playing FM12.

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Now I'm going to do what many of us should probably have done, spend a few hours on the Steam forums, never even been there before:)

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Yeh, in best forum tradition we're going off topic faster than the shuttle:D I understand you do good car analogies Wakers;)

I think that's gone over my head. It can only relate to something daft that i've said in the past? :D

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I think that's gone over my head. It can only relate to something daft that i've said in the past? :D

Nah, when people talking about FM are really stuck for something coherent to say they always resort to car analogies.:D

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Wow. I guess you guys know it all.

Patches are available without Steam. If you install with Steam you will need to download the patches through Steam.

If you buy the CD you can download the patches without Steam. At least that's how I see it.

I'll be shocked if patches are only available through Steam.

I've said enough on this. You're all worried about absolutely nothing, imo.

I'm being accused of sending out misinformation? After reading the absolute tripe by people on here?

Good luck.

I'll enjoy playing FM12.

Please read:

11.3 Patch Thread from the top of the forum

I'll quote the important part of Neil's OP:

As usual we have a number of different ways to download the patch. For those of you running Steam your game will Auto-Patch so PLEASE DO NOT download it manually from another source.

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Has there been an official word regarding patches? Will they be Steam only?

*edit no reason for quoting CP here - was a misclick*

Wow my self-imposed exile didn't last long.

In the post I linked to FM11 patches it clearly states where to use the Patches and what version and what disc etc.

I suspect it will be same for Fm12.

If you buy through Steam, you will update patches through Steam.

If you are worried about internet connections, then don't buy through Steam. Buy the disc. And when the downloads are available you can download to a USB stick from another location and install that way.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't the same as last year. And if it is then it still won't affect me. I've no issues patching through Steam. Not to say I won't. And if I do I'll let SI, Sega and Steam know about it.

Anyway, FM12 and Steam all the way for me. I'm looking forward to it.

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Nah, when people talking about FM are really stuck for something coherent to say they always resort to car analogies.:D

That's because anything can be compared to buying a car, especially FM...................i mean they are pretty much identical products!!

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Please read:

11.3 Patch Thread from the top of the forum

I'll quote the important part of Neil's OP:

And it says the exact same thing on the link I posted to the FM11 Patches. I didn't see a need to repost that information if it's already in the link?

Pardon me for assuming people can read?

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We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.

Come on, we all know ultimatums rarely work with FM ;)

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Wow my self-imposed exile didn't last long.

In the post I linked to FM11 patches it clearly states where to use the Patches and what version and what disc etc.

I suspect it will be same for Fm12.

If you buy through Steam, you will update patches through Steam.

If you are worried about internet connections, then don't buy through Steam. Buy the disc. And when the downloads are available you can download to a USB stick from another location and install that way.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't the same as last year. And if it is then it still won't affect me. I've no issues patching through Steam. Not to say I won't. And if I do I'll let SI, Sega and Steam know about it.

Anyway, FM12 and Steam all the way for me. I'm looking forward to it.

To be honest eugene i think your wrong, i think the game will have to be updated through steam and that will be the only platform for updates, i think Miles may have touched on that in his posts a few pages ago, i dont think you can update a steam game manually, even if its installed from disk.

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None of use were in the meeting, SI could have given alternatives and SEGA batted them down, If you in a meetig with your boss and he asks you for ideas and opinions and still picks his own, you may not be happy but you still got to sing from the same hymn sheet. If you didn't agree with the boss are you going to turn around and say fine if you want it that way I'm off, and walk out.

You could go the legal way and get the entire company removed......that's what i did :D

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Milnerpoint, thanks for that. I hope that's not true, I really do.

I hope someone from SI can clarify.

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We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.
None of use were in the meeting, SI could have given alternatives and SEGA batted them down, If you in a meetig with your boss and he asks you for ideas and opinions and still picks his own, you may not be happy but you still got to sing from the same hymn sheet. If you didn't agree with the boss are you going to turn around and say fine if you want it that way I'm off, and walk out.
Do you just ignore any post that doesnt back up your point??

Miles said they looked at every single possible solution and this was the best one they were left with, they went through every alternative before settling on steam.

Would have loved that thread from SI.

"Hi guys, we didn't want to put in DRM but we've been told by Sega to do so. Sorry everyone we tried to fight them on this but they wouldn't listen!"

I would appreciate it if people would stop telling me 'what he/someone said', I can read, please do not 'interpret' for me what has been written by Miles, or anybody else employed by SI and Sega, it should stand on it's own merit. Thank you.

This was always going to be an emotive subject. Any form of copy protection is. There's no conspiracy theory about SEGA posting about it though - they normally do so, as it's a publishing thing, not a development thing. It is their job to come up with recommendations in this area, but we were consulted about the various options available. This is by far and away the best one that was presented to us, from a user perspective, a business perspective and a protection perspective.

I would also ask people to please be careful when offering solutions/answers to people's questions, what you 'Think' 'Believe' 'Can see no reason why not' etc. may not actually be the correct solution/answer, or may be correct but not the complete picture, this can be very misleading.

EDIT: This, for instance, is a good example, you have to reconnect to Steam to download Patches:

People seem to be confusing what actually happens and how Steam is involved.

It seems to me that people think they have to play FM12 through steam and that their games will be stored online and not installed or saved to their computer.

That is not the case. All you have to do is have Steam running and Activate the game once online.

You still need Steam running and logged in under the user account, but you don't need it to be online, you can switch it to offline mode.

There are three inconveniences here

  1. Install Steam
  2. Activate game through Steam
  3. Have Steam always running when playing FM12

The first one seems to be bugging people immensely. I agree that installing a 3rd party software to play a game is annoying. But they are trying to get people to stop pirating, which I don't think this method will work, but that's neither here nor there.

The second one - people are confusing Activating through Steam with always having to be connected to the Steam Servers. You don't have be connected after you've Activated the game.

And the last one - you have to have Steam running when you play FM12 - and you can play it in Offline Mode. If you aren't planning to play FM12 then you can quit out of Steam and use your computer for other things. If you want to play FM12 then you need to log into Steam.

People are confusing the issue with Steam and how it works. And blowing it way out of proportion.

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As the game requires Steam to run, then updates will be done solely through Steam. Miles already said as much when he talked about the advantages of Steam.

Steam pushes out updates automatically, and manually patching a game in a Steam library is a pretty good way to bork it up.

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You can buy the game on disc and when you pop the disc in it will install through Steam. That way you may find the game cheaper through a local game shop.

Shops are just as expensive over here. Steam should use a fear price policy. So that's no option for me

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I sent a PM about how FM12 will be patched and the options. Hopefully get clarification on it?

Admittedly, I have speculated on it and I could be wrong.

But I don't think it's been clearly conveyed yet, so none of us really know.

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I would appreciate it if people would stop telling me 'what he/someone said', I can read, please do not 'interpret' for me what has been written by Miles, or anybody else employed by SI and Sega, it should stand on it's own merit. Thank you.

then actually read the posts and we wont have to :)

I would also ask people to please be careful when offering solutions/answers to people's questions, what you 'Think' 'Believe' 'Can see no reason why not' etc. may not actually be the correct solution/answer, or may be correct but not the complete picture, this can be very misleading.

may i suggest you stop speculating without any basis then, what you think or believe about the situation may be completely wrong, much like you are suggesting to us, so when you say

We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.

you have no idea what SI did or did not do, stop suggesting you do please. :)

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Milnerpoint, thanks for that. I hope that's not true, I really do.

I hope someone from SI can clarify.

I think its tied into the way steam works, when you update FM, it updates the FM folder within the steam folder, so i think it is all tied together.

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Well I've sent off a PM to the OP of this thread.

I thought if you installed through the disk it wouldn't go near steam at all, until the activation point. Once activated it's done and playable. And the Patches would be avaiable to download.

But if you installed through Steam it would of course be in the Steam folders etc. and would require update through Steam.

Hopefully get an answer soon.

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You can only install through Steam, that's the thing. When you put the DVD in, it will tell you that Steam is required to install and activate. Steam will then be installed (or opened) and will install the game for you.

That's how it was with Deus Ex, which has the same system.

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Another that is comparable to ones that already exist. With the amount of points of failure between hardware, software and users, one more isn't significant enough to be a concern

It's still more of a concern, especially since it requires me to go through one more legal agreement and Steam itself is a very "thick" wrapper application. It's a lot more significant than hardware.

With what record? How many times has it happened for it to be a quantifiable risk and how big a risk? It's basic risk assessment criteria, how often is it likely to happen (based on future forecasts and previous events), how many people is it likely to affect and on what scale. Simply "it might happen" is again not a significant enough concern.

Hacks are unpredictable and their damage is unpredictable. What is known is that they will always happen and nothing you can do can ever isolate yourself from it. Steam is a very viable target since it holds personal and financial details, and causes large impact. I'd say it's quite significant.

Thankfully listening to your forum posts will change their minds over their own internal or paid for external research.

True - I'm a customer. If they're not listening to customers, we have bigger issues.

Loyal means sticking by them through the good and bad, if you walk away your not loyal, even if you think you are, and SI are not screwing anyone with this, calm down and stop sensationalizing it.

We were loyal, but not any more.

There's nothing wrong with that. We have no duty of loyalty.

You hear companies worried about losing loyal customers all the time - customers who have stuck with the brand as the brand gives them certain benefits. However, once that brand ceases to give them certain benefits, the loyalty goes out of the window. It's a capitalist world, and loyalty is an unexpected surprise and benefit for a company. Lose that, and...

I do find it illuminating that you stuck "good and bad" in your posts - is this a bad thing? I can't see why someone's loyalty would be swayed if something "good" happened.

We have been loyal to SI all this while, and we would like to maintain that loyalty. That is why we are aggrieved. Loyalty is one thing - betraying that loyalty is another - we feel that this has happened.

As for SI screwing us over - yes they have. Look at the complaints! Some of us have had bad experiences with Steam, whilst some will stay away out of principle, and this is known.

Just because you don't feel screwed over, don't think that you are morally right and therefore everyone else is wrong. People are aggrieved, just as they have the right to be. You don't have a problem - brilliant. Now listen to those who do. And don't tell them to calm down - if you care about the game, it is better that SI and Sega set themselves higher standards, and only complaints will get them there.

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You can only install through Steam, that's the thing. When you put the DVD in, it will tell you that Steam is required to install and activate. Steam will then be installed (or opened) and will install the game for you.

That's how it was with Deus Ex, which has the same system.

This is the case, the only advantage is a quicker install as it loads the game from the disc, the end result is the same.

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Well I've sent off a PM to the OP of this thread.

I thought if you installed through the disk it wouldn't go near steam at all, until the activation point. Once activated it's done and playable. And the Patches would be avaiable to download.

But if you installed through Steam it would of course be in the Steam folders etc. and would require update through Steam.

Hopefully get an answer soon.

Nah once you put the game onto steam you need steam to do anything with it. Even if you install off disk it will install through steam if you get what i mean, steam will need to be there for anything done with FM.

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You can only install through Steam, that's the thing. When you put the DVD in, it will tell you that Steam is required to install and activate. Steam will then be installed (or opened) and will install the game for you.

That's how it was with Deus Ex, which has the same system.

Hmmm fair enough. If that's how it worked with other games, I don't have any other games with Steam.

I'll still wait for clarification from SI on it though.

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It's still more of a concern, especially since it requires me to go through one more legal agreement and Steam itself is a very "thick" wrapper application. It's a lot more significant than hardware.

Not as a point of failure it isn't.

Hacks are unpredictable and their damage is unpredictable. What is known is that they will always happen and nothing you can do can ever isolate yourself from it. Steam is a very viable target since it holds personal and financial details, and causes large impact. I'd say it's quite significant.

It doesn't present any more risk than any other hack, less so actually because windows/websites/emails etc. have a much higher attack rate. You're more likely to have details stolen from someone stealing forum data kept by Sega than someone hacking in to your computer via Steam and obtaining your fake hotmail account name and password.

True - I'm a customer. If they're not listening to customers, we have bigger issues.

Ah yes, SI should listen to customers on every aspect on how they build and release a game otherwise they are in trouble. Especially if one customer's opinion contradicts their own research! I mean that's how successful business work! Customer is always right etc.

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